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Old 2011-08-08, 03:47   Link #12441
UNDER_LINE
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Bought SP. The stories seem identical to their original versions, so I'm not gonna waste time reading them again. There are no new illustrations either (except for the cover).

Spoiler for Img:


Unfortunately, still couldn't find NT2 anywhere.
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Old 2011-08-08, 03:59   Link #12442
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by UNDER_LINE View Post
Unfortunately, still couldn't find NT2 anywhere.

No early releases for NT1 either back in March... I guess we're hunkering in the bunker till Wednesday.

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Originally Posted by Drifting Wolf View Post
But they do have the training and they have shown to use tactics that would have been considered pretty smart.

To elaborate - The Imoutou's can - Pilot tanks, aircrafts, cars, etc. Assemble and accurately use a sniper rifle and a submachine gun.
Right, with training they can do that.

With training, anybody can do that- it doesn't make them special, the only thing special about that is how they learn and that is through the network like Matrix.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifting Wolf View Post
The Misaka Sisters all devised workable tactics and continually pushed what they could do to overcome 'Vector Change'. They did not use half-baked attacks. They were practical and always knew when they had lost. 10032 has this in spades. When not able, she asked for help instead of fighting a losing battle. Yes, I know the part about Touma vs Accelerator is a point against that but that was because she was still part of the experiment and knew nothing about him.

Additionally, she lasted the longest against Accelerator and actually gave Accelerator a run for his money.

The Misaka in Russia devised appropriate tactics to counterattack against the military personnel there, stole one of their tanks and used Misaka Mikoto as the battering ram in every possible scenario.

The Hound Dogs... tried to ram a car into Accelerator. Despite knowing what Acceleator's ability was. And lost to Accelerator in psychological warfare and ended up being slaughtered. They did even WORSE against Accelerator and as a group with Kihara Amata leading them at that.

Compared to that, yeah, I'd say the SISTERS definitely have what it takes to go up against them. Just not as an organisation. Unless you add them all into the equation.
Very well, I admit they did reasonably well against Accelerator... Though it probably taken them 10 000 trial and errors to do so.... And not exactly ideal performance either.

Hound Dogs... Don't even have 1000 trial and error, but fair enough. Information is one thing, experience is another, and the sisters clearly have more experience dealing with Accelerator than what Hound Dogs have.

The Imoutos could learn to defeat Hound Dog and other military group... But how many clones do you think it would take? The lessons learned from fighting Accelerator does not translate to fighting mercenaries, while Hound Dogs are trained to handle 'normal' situations as oppose to 'abnormal' situations like Accelerator.



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Originally Posted by Drifting Wolf View Post
I'm not saying give them the best of everything. Give them what they had - the Skills, the adaptability they showed when facing Accelerator and the weapons they deployed against him. The tactics also come into factor because they primarily used 'tactics' against Accelerator.

Yes, I understand how fragile 'tactics' and 'strategy' can be. But it's precisely because they've shown to be completely and utterly practical (and sometimes, even effective) in their execution that I consider the Misaka clones primarily based on tactics.

And while they lost and lost badly, they lost against two of the most broken people in history from both sides. I can deal with that.

What I don't agree with is the fact that you think the SISTERS have not been putting up a show - When they have and I respect their tenacity for it. In my humble opinion, they are merely Overshadowed by Awesome.
Let me bring to attention what started this entire debate for me in the first place.

Apparently the common belief is that Mikoto hasn't been doing anything important in the series and how the Imoutos are more important. I pointed out that technically the Imoutos aren't doing anything important aside from existing and therefore by that line of thinking Mikoto is also important by simply existing.

Then it was brought up that Mikoto had stopped total global nuclear disaster, which even before this, people have been saying that it isn't important compare to what other people (three protagonists) are doing. So if saving the world from nuclear disaster isn't worth mentioning, why should the Imoutos get credit from 'putting in good effort'? If apparently everything Mikoto did in the story is considered unimportant, what makes anything the Imoutos do any better when the best thing they've done is to play the victims?
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Old 2011-08-08, 04:17   Link #12443
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i mostly agree with you chaos, just one thing: the sisters existence is more important than mikoto story-wise. Basicaly, yes, just by existing, the sisters are more important than mikoto
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Old 2011-08-08, 04:21   Link #12444
Drifting Wolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
No early releases for NT1 either back in March... I guess we're hunkering in the bunker till Wednesday.



Right, with training they can do that.

With training, anybody can do that- it doesn't make them special, the only thing special about that is how they learn and that is through the network like Matrix.




Very well, I admit they did reasonably well against Accelerator... Though it probably taken them 10 000 trial and errors to do so.... And not exactly ideal performance either.

Hound Dogs... Don't even have 1000 trial and error, but fair enough. Information is one thing, experience is another, and the sisters clearly have more experience dealing with Accelerator than what Hound Dogs have.

The Imoutos could learn to defeat Hound Dog and other military group... But how many clones do you think it would take? The lessons learned from fighting Accelerator does not translate to fighting mercenaries, while Hound Dogs are trained to handle 'normal' situations as oppose to 'abnormal' situations like Accelerator.





Let me bring to attention what started this entire debate for me in the first place.

Apparently the common belief is that Mikoto hasn't been doing anything important in the series and how the Imoutos are more important. I pointed out that technically the Imoutos aren't doing anything important aside from existing and therefore by that line of thinking Mikoto is also important by simply existing.

Then it was brought up that Mikoto had stopped total global nuclear disaster, which even before this, people have been saying that it isn't important compare to what other people (three protagonists) are doing. So if saving the world from nuclear disaster isn't worth mentioning, why should the Imoutos get credit from 'putting in good effort'? If apparently everything Mikoto did in the story is considered unimportant, what makes anything the Imoutos do any better when the best thing they've done is to play the victims?

Your point is valid. And frankly, whether or not they've done anything relevant for the series is really up up to the masses. People remember the 'super awesome' stuff but fail to give credit where it's due. What I did here was merely point out that as fellow fans of the series, we should give the less respected characters their dues. Which is why I started the argument that the SISTERS have been shown to be competent in their own right.

As for Mikoto, she's had more screentime and relevance than the titular character Index. I think she's had her share of the glory, in my opinion.

On a parting note, since I would prefer not to derail the thread further - the 10,000 SISTERS apparently died because they ALL the tactics against Accelerator failed. The tactics became more and more lethal because, well, you know, it's Accelerator.

The fact is, they didn't know jack about Accelerator. During the introductory scene in the Light Novels, Accelerator only reveals then what his ability is and what he can do with it.

The later fights show the SISTERs attempting to test the limits of his Vector Change and 10032 tries to suffocate him. While 10,000 SISTERS died, I do recall that in the manga, Accelerator apparently one-shotted the first Misaka Clone he was up against. I presume that is why he actually talks with them. One part because he wants to assure himself that they're all emotionless puppets, the other because he's plain bored.

The Hound Dogs, on the other hand, had all the information on Accelerator and they had Kihara Amata to the boot. They still got wiped out despite Accelerator being half crippled and on borrowed time at that. Furthermore, they did it as a group and still failed.

The Imouto's are trained in conventional military tactics. It was clearly stated that they gained these knowledge through the Testament machine. Thus, they are probably as well trained as say... Anti-Skill or possibly even better, since an Imouto was able to pilot a VOTL craft with no issues.

They had to think out of the box to combat Accelerator because he was practically invulnerable. In a sense, they can take on Hound Dogs and any other organisation. They have the knowledge and the skills, which were demonstrated in the Novels. They're just not as... well, funded as Hound Dog or Anti-Skill.

Furthermore, I beg to differ. The lessons learnt from fighting Accelerator have apparently meant that the Sisters now view our definition of 'Overkill' as merely 'more force'. Since 10032 apparently thought that bringing out a rifle to hunt down Last Order for her goggles was normal.

You could see it like this - Wheras before you use a Sniper Rifle... Now, you use a Sniper Rifle and set explosives around the entrance in the event it misses and have a car ready to run the person down if he makes a break for it.
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Old 2011-08-08, 04:23   Link #12445
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I too do not want to derail this any further, especially since we're going around in circles, but this is one point-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifting Wolf View Post
The Hound Dogs, on the other hand, had all the information on Accelerator and they had Kihara Amata to the boot. They still got wiped out despite Accelerator being half crippled and on borrowed time at that. Furthermore, they did it as a group and still failed.
You might have missed out what I've said; but information and experience is two different things. Both groups have information, the Imouto gain this slowly while the Hound Dogs presumably had all the facts. But what the Imoutos have that Hound Dogs doesn't have is the experience from fighting Accelerator 10000 times.

As a fellow NS-man, you should know that I can tell you 100 stories about field camp, but nothing can prepare you for that 2am fast march in pitch-black, or that first time you ate beans from a plastic bag in a hole you've just dug that may or may not protect you from 'arty'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifting Wolf View Post
As for Mikoto, she's had more screentime and relevance than the titular character Index. I think she's had her share of the glory, in my opinion.
Index is important just by existing as well.... See how this works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by giorno View Post
i mostly agree with you chaos, just one thing: the sisters existence is more important than mikoto story-wise. Basicaly, yes, just by existing, the sisters are more important than mikoto
But that importance is base on one factor only- Aleister's Plan. Why are we using this as the sole- or rather 'main' factor to determine one's importance? The Toaruverse is so pack with many stories and POVs that why are we limiting ourselves to only one? Can we say for sure that Aleister's Plan is the be-all-that-ends-all ? Hell, we don't even know what it is!
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Old 2011-08-08, 04:42   Link #12446
Drifting Wolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
I too do not want to derail this any further, especially since we're going around in circles, but this is one point-



You might have missed out what I've said; but information and experience is two different things. Both groups have information, the Imouto gain this slowly while the Hound Dogs presumably had all the facts. But what the Imoutos have that Hound Dogs doesn't have is the experience from fighting Accelerator 10000 times.

As a fellow NS-man, you should know that I can tell you 100 stories about field camp, but nothing can prepare you for that 2am fast march in pitch-black, or that first time you ate beans from a plastic bag in a hole you've just dug that may or may not protect you from 'arty'.



Index is important just by existing as well.... See how this works?



But that importance is base on one factor only- Aleister's Plan. Why are we using this as the sole- or rather 'main' factor to determine one's importance? The Toaruverse is so pack with many stories and POVs that why are we limiting ourselves to only one? Can we say for sure that Aleister's Plan is the be-all-that-ends-all ? Hell, we don't even know what it is!
Point taken but I must remind you - Kihara Amata devised a counterattack to Accelerator's power based on pure knowledge. He never fought against Accelerator as well. He merely used the data, formulated a plan of attack and smashed Accelerator's face in.

Knowledge does not equate experience, true. But being in NS should have told you that knowledge is a powerful tool that is used to decide the fine line between victory and loss. Knowing about the terrain, what the enemy has, what weapons they use, the conventional tactics they employ and their mindset... all these are an important part of warfare.
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Old 2011-08-08, 04:49   Link #12447
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Originally Posted by Drifting Wolf View Post
Point taken but I must remind you - Kihara Amata devised a counterattack to Accelerator's power based on pure knowledge. He never fought against Accelerator as well. He merely used the data, formulated a plan of attack and smashed Accelerator's face in.
Then I guess it's only fair to remind you that Kihara spend a great deal of time 'developing' Accelerator since his childhood. That amount of time spend with him serves just as good as experience as he knows Accelerator's character and performance inside out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifting Wolf View Post
Knowledge does not equate experience, true. But being in NS should have told you that knowledge is a powerful tool that is used to decide the fine line between victory and loss. Knowing about the terrain, what the enemy has, what weapons they use, the conventional tactics they employ and their mindset... all these are an important part of warfare.
And how do you put to use that knowledge? Through the experience of knowing what to do and when to do it- you don't get that from watching a computer screen.

(^At this point we should stop before we continue to derail)
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Old 2011-08-08, 04:58   Link #12448
Drifting Wolf
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^

But that's still pure knowledge. I learn Karate and I'm a blackbelt. But when I got into a real fight, I ended up hurting just as much as my opponents because while I know how to fight them off, I was not prepared for bruised muscles due to skin contact, etc.

Knowing something does not equate to experience. He developed Vector Change but the rest were still innovations by Accelerator, like the tornado attack. He merely applied that knowledge in a brutally practical fashion and understood that since Accelerator required complex calculations, you can simply throw a wrench in it. And the Hound Dogs had that kind of knowledge behind them.

And if you do want to get down and dirty with the whole knowledge vs experience thing... You should read the reports where US invaded Iraq and tell me if that wasn't a excellent use of knowledge. Knowledge is just as important as experience. Both are essential to one another, anyway.

Ok, this is where I stop, since I apparently can't convince you of anything else anyway. And I have a headache, good sir. So peace. We're still friends, right?

In any case, NT2 is due when?
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Old 2011-08-08, 05:21   Link #12449
tsunade666
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stalking some random image board thread

Spoiler for NT2 or Styl SS. Not sure:


could someone read the title for the chapters.
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Old 2011-08-08, 05:29   Link #12450
UNDER_LINE
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
stalking some random image board thread

Spoiler for NT2 or Styl SS. Not sure:


could someone read the title for the chapters.
That's the table of contents for SP. The title are just
1) Stiyl Magnus
2) Mark Space
3) Kamijou Touma
4) Uiharu Kazari

Titles refer to Stiyl SS, Mark Space special chapter, Mars SS and Uiharu SS respectively.
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Old 2011-08-08, 07:50   Link #12451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNDER_LINE View Post
Bought SP. The stories seem identical to their original versions, so I'm not gonna waste time reading them again. There are no new illustrations either (except for the cover).

Spoiler for Img:


Unfortunately, still couldn't find NT2 anywhere.
Bardways sister looks like she is the science sister.
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Old 2011-08-08, 08:40   Link #12452
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by UNDER_LINE View Post
That's the table of contents for SP. The title are just
1) Stiyl Magnus
2) Mark Space
3) Kamijou Touma
4) Uiharu Kazari

Titles refer to Stiyl SS, Mark Space special chapter, Mars SS and Uiharu SS respectively.
What is the Mars SS and why would Kamijou Touma's be use as it's title?
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Old 2011-08-08, 14:33   Link #12453
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Bardways sister looks like she is the science sister.
Bardway has a sister? O_o
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Old 2011-08-08, 14:35   Link #12454
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Bardway has a sister? O_o
Patricia Bardway

That's who's on the cover of the SS bundle pack
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Old 2011-08-08, 14:35   Link #12455
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Bardway has a sister? O_o
You didn't know?! She said it in NT1, and before that she was part of the Stiyl SS plot.
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Old 2011-08-08, 14:37   Link #12456
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Bardway has a sister? O_o
Your avatar is perfect for you, lol.
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Old 2011-08-08, 16:55   Link #12457
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Omg i didnt read Stiyl SS and missed it in NT1 O_o
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Old 2011-08-08, 17:50   Link #12458
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I don't know whats going on but I wonder why there is no spoilers flood as usual? I don't care if they aren't confirmed, at times it even can be funny.... yeah, I'm bored.... =____=;
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Old 2011-08-08, 17:55   Link #12459
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
What is the Mars SS and why would Kamijou Touma's be use as it's title?
Mars SS is another SS that was only published in a magazine. Kamijou Touma is used as the title because Touma unfortunately got involved in the incident (as usual).
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Old 2011-08-08, 18:00   Link #12460
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Mars SS is another SS that was only published in a magazine. Kamijou Touma is used as the title because Touma unfortunately got involved in the incident (as usual).
But what is it about?
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