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Old 2012-01-14, 08:02   Link #16281
leukrota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
If you mean by controlling entropy the power to alter an object's temperature at will, i.e., she can burn or freeze her targets without the elemental baggage, yeah, I'll buy that.
It's not exactly what I mean, but I'm not discussing that here anymore, I'll go post in the Abilities thread.

EDIT: Ok done, let's continue here.

Last edited by leukrota; 2012-01-14 at 08:43.
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Old 2012-01-16, 22:34   Link #16282
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Originally Posted by Twi View Post
I doubt most of them can take care of themselves, and in a situation like this...well, a lot of Skill-Out with pent-up rage at their attitudes WILL make a move.
One would think that... if the people inside the city aren't mostly walking physical gods.

Skill-Out will definitely move. But you need to analyze the situation a bit. If there was an outside force bent on destroying AC and everyone in it, Skill-Out will mostly act as allies than enemies. They're an organized group with leaders after all. And from what we read in the LN, a number MIGHT be funded by different AC organizations secretly.

And I guess a lot of the espers are dysfunctional already. Kongou did pair up with Kuroko in Railgun and took out armed armored units. If that is one, think about the other level 3 and 4's who are powerful enough to attempt to rob a bank.

Let's not forget people like Saiai who are recipients of illegal experiments like the Dark May Project.

If it's an army of magicians, the city is saturated with AIM field.

I really have my doubts any attempt to openly attack AC will succeed.
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Old 2012-01-20, 16:06   Link #16283
Twi
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Originally Posted by djmaca View Post
One would think that... if the people inside the city aren't mostly walking physical gods.

Skill-Out will definitely move. But you need to analyze the situation a bit. If there was an outside force bent on destroying AC and everyone in it, Skill-Out will mostly act as allies than enemies. They're an organized group with leaders after all. And from what we read in the LN, a number MIGHT be funded by different AC organizations secretly.

And I guess a lot of the espers are dysfunctional already. Kongou did pair up with Kuroko in Railgun and took out armed armored units. If that is one, think about the other level 3 and 4's who are powerful enough to attempt to rob a bank.

Let's not forget people like Saiai who are recipients of illegal experiments like the Dark May Project.

If it's an army of magicians, the city is saturated with AIM field.

I really have my doubts any attempt to openly attack AC will succeed.
Level 5's are the walking gods, but we've seen the problems with levels before. How long until you think a couple of them are going to get big heads and act like gods over the powerless?
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Old 2012-01-20, 16:33   Link #16284
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Originally Posted by Twi View Post
How long until you think a couple of them are going to get big heads and act like gods over the powerless?
But they are already doing that, it's just that AC hides it from public.
I believe it was one of the reasons why skill-outs exist. (weren't those espers doing some man-hunts on low levels?)
PS: the railgun PSP game was about an esper like that..

And if you look at the current level 5s, they don't care about stuff like abusing their powers, causing lots of damage to property of AC or it's residents, some of them does not even care about civilian injuries/casualities and they DON'T TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS (this goes for ALL of them).
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Old 2012-01-20, 17:01   Link #16285
Twi
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Originally Posted by zaeraal View Post
But they are already doing that, it's just that AC hides it from public.
I believe it was one of the reasons why skill-outs exist. (weren't those espers doing some man-hunts on low levels?)
PS: the railgun PSP game was about an esper like that..

And if you look at the current level 5s, they don't care about stuff like abusing their powers, causing lots of damage to property of AC or it's residents, some of them does not even care about civilian injuries/casualities and they DON'T TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS (this goes for ALL of them).
Yeah, because Aleister is covering their tails.
No Aleister, no protection, hence the situation on Hawaii which just b*tch-slapped the science side.

Besides, Hamazura proved you can kill Level 5s if you think ahead. As powerful as they are, they have weaknesses to exploit.
But leaving the god tier espers alone, AC only looks nice on the surface because of Aleister's hand. Once he's gone...
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Old 2012-01-20, 17:44   Link #16286
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Aleister is the only reason they even got to this point, the moment he's gone, AC will follow
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Old 2012-01-20, 18:59   Link #16287
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Originally Posted by djmaca View Post
If it's an army of magicians, the city is saturated with AIM field.

I really have my doubts any attempt to openly attack AC will succeed.
This itself is the only reason why magicians won't openly walk in academy city. Walking inside the artificial heaven is suicide. But without that. Do you really think a bunch of kids can take don't professional magicians? that even a level 1 can fight against higher level with proper preparations. The only one standing a chance is in the dark side and even in the dark side doesn't give a damn about magic. Look at Accelerator and Kihara. They don't have a clue about it or even the scientist of academy city. Well they would think it's just some esper ability like what Misaka would think.

Plus AC will again and again doesn't take the esper brats as fire power. The real fire power of AC is their HS or hard science tech machines.
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Old 2012-01-20, 19:57   Link #16288
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Using Espers to fight Magicians is hardly a long shot, but you need to train them, teach them what to look out for, what are the basic tactics they could use and how to counter them. I mean, for what other purpose do we have Tsuchimikado sticking around for? Not to mention Eztali isn't too shamby himself.


And no, I don't mean just grabbing any highschool guy or middle school girl... We wouldn't want them to go all Shu on us, but there is already a sizable force of Espers working on the Dark Side or have shown enough combat potential in a real fight, even if it's 0.5% of the population that's still around 9000 strong. And it's not like Magicians have numerous armies at their disposal- Russia and Gremlin still have to involve conventional forces for anything truly threatening... Plus, since when does numbers affect how Academy City fights?


But most importantly, at this point they should cut the crap already- The [Freshmen] were supposedly created to combat the [Gremlin] threat but they leader had never even heard of Magic until now. All this top secret bullshit is stupid now that even people from the outside world knows that there's something occult going on in the world.
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Old 2012-01-20, 20:18   Link #16289
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Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
So, is it possible to have more classical-element Espers in the future.

See, we already have:

Lightning - Mikoto (Level 5), WORST (4), LO (3), the Sisters (2)
Wind - Kongou (4), Saten (while under Level Upper)
Fire - Bank Robber Leader in Railgun (2)
Water - Those Two Girls at Tokiwadai (3)

I want to see these elements: Earth, more Fire, and Ice. And oh, I have a theory about Cryomaster Uiharu!
Doesn't Mugino fall under the fire element category with her ability being called "Meltdowner" and all? I mean isn't her ability like molecular breakdown using heat at extreme high temperatures?
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Old 2012-01-20, 22:09   Link #16290
Twi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Using Espers to fight Magicians is hardly a long shot, but you need to train them, teach them what to look out for, what are the basic tactics they could use and how to counter them. I mean, for what other purpose do we have Tsuchimikado sticking around for? Not to mention Eztali isn't too shamby himself.


And no, I don't mean just grabbing any highschool guy or middle school girl... We wouldn't want them to go all Shu on us, but there is already a sizable force of Espers working on the Dark Side or have shown enough combat potential in a real fight, even if it's 0.5% of the population that's still around 9000 strong. And it's not like Magicians have numerous armies at their disposal- Russia and Gremlin still have to involve conventional forces for anything truly threatening... Plus, since when does numbers affect how Academy City fights?


But most importantly, at this point they should cut the crap already- The [Freshmen] were supposedly created to combat the [Gremlin] threat but they leader had never even heard of Magic until now. All this top secret bullshit is stupid now that even people from the outside world knows that there's something occult going on in the world.
It is stupid to hide it at this point, but Espers have a natural disadvantage against magicians, who have a longer history and are developing counter measures to use against espers, like GREMLIN tricking Accel into using magic.
Not to mention the process of making magicians is a lot easier than making Espers...although if Hamazura's girlfriend takes a hand in it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deikan View Post
Doesn't Mugino fall under the fire element category with her ability being called "Meltdowner" and all? I mean isn't her ability like molecular breakdown using heat at extreme high temperatures?
No, she destabilizes molecules. Her ability is closer to mikoto's lightning in that they can deflect and bend each others.
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Old 2012-01-20, 22:38   Link #16291
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twi View Post
It is stupid to hide it at this point, but Espers have a natural disadvantage against magicians, who have a longer history and are developing counter measures to use against espers, like GREMLIN tricking Accel into using magic.
Not to mention the process of making magicians is a lot easier than making Espers...although if Hamazura's girlfriend takes a hand in it...

That's why they need training, just as Magicians are developing counter measures against Espers, the armed race works both ways... I mean, they have Aleister Crowley for goodness sake, he doesn't even need to teach them personally, he has Tsuchimikado for that.


Also, Magicians need years to train to pick up skills otherwise they're nothing but free frags in a world with guns- eg the Russian Mages and Catholic Nuns. Sure we got some child genius, but I doubt you have an army of that.
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Old 2012-01-20, 22:43   Link #16292
Miraluka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
That's why they need training, just as Magicians are developing counter measures against Espers, the armed race works both ways... I mean, they have Aleister Crowley for goodness sake, he doesn't even need to teach them personally, he has Tsuchimikado for that.
Tsuchimikado plays for both sides as spy, both sides higher ups are letting him to live btb if he dares to play in one side, then Necessarius and AC both will ditch him off.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Also, Magicians need years to train to pick up skills otherwise they're nothing but free frags in a world with guns- eg the Russian Mages and Catholic Nuns. Sure we got some child genius, but I doubt you have an army of that.
Magicians has different specialists tough.
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Old 2012-01-20, 22:46   Link #16293
Twi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
That's why they need training, just as Magicians are developing counter measures against Espers, the armed race works both ways... I mean, they have Aleister Crowley for goodness sake, he doesn't even need to teach them personally, he has Tsuchimikado for that.


Also, Magicians need years to train to pick up skills otherwise they're nothing but free frags in a world with guns- eg the Russian Mages and Catholic Nuns. Sure we got some child genius, but I doubt you have an army of that.
Until the magicians start picking up weapons themselves. They have Spiritual Tools, like the Robin Hood is similar to a gun, they just need to point and use...this would make a fan fic more depressing than Poke Wars...Crap, lost it for a second, anyway, magicians still have so much variety compared to Espers. And then there are Saints and Magic Gods and Index...
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Old 2012-01-20, 23:00   Link #16294
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Tsuchimikado plays for both sides as spy, both sides higher ups are letting him to live btb if he dares to play in one side, then Necessarius and AC both will ditch him off.
Considering his sister is in Academy City, it's pretty certain which way he would go when push comes to shove.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Magicians has different specialists tough.
And Science is more than just Espers and cyborgs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twi View Post
Until the magicians start picking up weapons themselves. They have Spiritual Tools, like the Robin Hood is similar to a gun, they just need to point and use...this would make a fan fic more depressing than Poke Wars...Crap, lost it for a second, anyway, magicians still have so much variety compared to Espers. And then there are Saints and Magic Gods and Index...
If you want to bring up weapons, Science side have a couple thousand nukes and non-nuclear intercontinental missiles, laser, biological and chemical weapons- I like to see the spell that could stop a Nerve gas or Small pox.

The thing is, people's impression is that Science vs Magic is going to be Esper vs Magician with just their powers duking it out.

But the thing is, it's not- Espers are only 1 of Science's arsenal, just like a magician is only one of the weapons on Magic side.

The argument is that Espers aren't soldiers, fine- then let's train them. Are they only going to use their powers? Definitely not. Can a normal soldier do what they do? Sure, but the Esper's powers given them an additional edge.
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Old 2012-01-20, 23:04   Link #16295
Miraluka
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But they can't do it just like that, they're students afterall.
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Old 2012-01-20, 23:13   Link #16296
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
But they can't do it just like that, they're students afterall.
Not all of them, that's the point I'm trying to make.

When any country goes to War, they don't need ALL of it's citizens to suddenly become soldiers.

Likewise they don't need every single Esper to fight, Academy City already have a small force of Espers working on the dark side, they already have some combat experience. Plus any other students who thinks they're up to it can sign on. Even with 0.5% of the population that's still 9000 Espers.
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Old 2012-01-20, 23:29   Link #16297
leukrota
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Originally Posted by Twi View Post
And then there are Saints and Magic Gods and Index...
Magic Gods and Saints all have their own agendas so you would hardly ever find them cooperating with one another.

@Chaos - Welcome back... how do you manage to get yourself banned so often?
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Old 2012-01-20, 23:42   Link #16298
Twi
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Considering his sister is in Academy City, it's pretty certain which way he would go when push comes to shove.




And Science is more than just Espers and cyborgs.



If you want to bring up weapons, Science side have a couple thousand nukes and non-nuclear intercontinental missiles, laser, biological and chemical weapons- I like to see the spell that could stop a Nerve gas or Small pox.

The thing is, people's impression is that Science vs Magic is going to be Esper vs Magician with just their powers duking it out.

But the thing is, it's not- Espers are only 1 of Science's arsenal, just like a magician is only one of the weapons on Magic side.

The argument is that Espers aren't soldiers, fine- then let's train them. Are they only going to use their powers? Definitely not. Can a normal soldier do what they do? Sure, but the Esper's powers given them an additional edge.
They do have spells that handle that. For gases that only work on inhaling, we've seen Lessar enter an area with no oxygen and if AC breaks out forbidden weaponry like Nukes or Chemical weapons, they lose any support they may have had and other countries, even those that were uninvolved, would start literally bombarding them until there wasn't a standing building or underground bunker left.

Hostile situation or not, weapons like that make bad situations worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Not all of them, that's the point I'm trying to make.

When any country goes to War, they don't need ALL of it's citizens to suddenly become soldiers.

Likewise they don't need every single Esper to fight, Academy City already have a small force of Espers working on the dark side, they already have some combat experience. Plus any other students who thinks they're up to it can sign on. Even with 0.5% of the population that's still 9000 Espers.
9000, several of whom are at Level 3 or below, students AKA children, which we've established could only end badly...and 9000 isn't exactly alot compared to major armed forces....
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Old 2012-01-20, 23:57   Link #16299
Chaos2Frozen
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@leukrota

I can't talk about it without getting into trouble... >.>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twi View Post
They do have spells that handle that. For gases that only work on inhaling, we've seen Lessar enter an area with no oxygen and if AC breaks out forbidden weaponry like Nukes or Chemical weapons, they lose any support they may have had and other countries, even those that were uninvolved, would start literally bombarding them until there wasn't a standing building or underground bunker left.

Hostile situation or not, weapons like that make bad situations worse.
Magic side is no different if they start to use large scale weapons, that was Academy City's reason that the Rome Catholics had use their specially developed large scale 'esper' technology on them during 0931.

(Oh yeah, gas can also affect skin contact, a magician might not know the difference, lets not forget Nano technology and god knows how many other science fiction weapons...)

The World's not that stupid, people know there's some kind of occult power in the world already.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Twi View Post
9000, several of whom are at Level 3 or below, students AKA children, which we've established could only end badly...and 9000 isn't exactly alot compared to major armed forces....
Hello? Dark side Espers? Ring any bells? Where Twelve years old like Kuroyoru and Saiai with plentiful combat experience exist in abundances?

Also, 9000 is more than enough, since when has Academy City rely on numbers? This is not going to be conventional warfare, this is going to be a Spec Ops war.

One more thing... Level 3s, really? You don't think even 0.5% of 1.8 million people are Level 4s?

Btw I want to be clear on one thing- I'm not in support of a scenario where the students take over Academy City for their purpose, I think it's impossible. What I am saying is that the idea of having a fighting force of Espers to go up against magicians is not as impossible as people make it seem.

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2012-01-21 at 00:16.
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Old 2012-01-21, 01:08   Link #16300
Twi
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
@leukrota

I can't talk about it without getting into trouble... >.>



Magic side is no different if they start to use large scale weapons, that was Academy City's reason that the Rome Catholics had use their specially developed large scale 'esper' technology on them during 0931.

(Oh yeah, gas can also affect skin contact, a magician might not know the difference, lets not forget Nano technology and god knows how many other science fiction weapons...)

The World's not that stupid, people know there's some kind of occult power in the world already.





Hello? Dark side Espers? Ring any bells? Where Twelve years old like Kuroyoru and Saiai with plentiful combat experience exist in abundances?

Also, 9000 is more than enough, since when has Academy City rely on numbers? This is not going to be conventional warfare, this is going to be a Spec Ops war.

One more thing... Level 3s, really? You don't think even 0.5% of 1.8 million people are Level 4s?

Btw I want to be clear on one thing- I'm not in support of a scenario where the students take over Academy City for their purpose, I think it's impossible. What I am saying is that the idea of having a fighting force of Espers to go up against magicians is not as impossible as people make it seem.
I'm not saying it's impossible, just highly, highly difficult.
People know there's occult, but how many will want to believe it? Paranoia will set in.

Espers are the public face of the supernatural, therefore they are the easiest to pin the blame and soak up all the faults of a supernatural power. The only reason people aren't going X-men on the Espers is because they are carefully monitored by AC and kept within the city the majority of the time barring special occasions or permission. If Magic is exposed that can be used for taking over minds...like Saranoia has shown...how many people would question their own free will? How many people will blame their issues on an innocent person or a magician that did nothing wrong? Remember, Touma was sent to AC because he was nearly killed because of his power's side effect of causing bad luck. He may have been an extreme case, but if Espers were loose it would end up becoming far to common from paranoia and jealousy.

Needless to say, the issue will quickly go from Magic vs Science to Supernatural vs Society if magic was widely exposed and believed. That's why magicians walk in the darkness, aside from the very disturbing things we've seen. There's no place for them anywhere else, like there's no place for Espers but AC. Which is why I don't see anything good coming from the end of the series if it comes to a war. Once fantasy become reality, h*ll will break loose and split the world apart...further than it is now...

And don't get me started on the Arms race between countries to monopolize them as weapons...

As for the gas, what's stopping them from getting other Espers in a case of friendly fire? Not all Magicians are technophobic, and a few of them are going to be able to avoid it...heck, they might just use a filter spell to separate oxygen from the harmful chemicals based on some obscure legend or myth related to their system.

And while Dark Side espers are useful....do you really want a bunch of people like Koruyoru running around? She kills her allies when they aren't useful anymore. Dark Side Espers are too much of a danger to their own side in most cases.

Level 4s are rare compared to Level 3s. Short of Level Upper, that ain't gonna change anytime soon. With so few in numbers you wouldn't treat them so lightly as soldiers. They'd be elites, to be used sparingly.


Note: I clearly don't advocate the use of children in warfare under any circumstances for obvious reasons, nor do I recommend people be used a pawns to be sacrificed.
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