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Old 2012-03-21, 22:48   Link #17501
Okashira
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
The question is... Do the holistic espers are similar to gemstones? Afterall gemstones are a product of the macro-scale.
They are product of the macro scale, but they work on a micro scale anyway. Narration wise, I feel that the closes thing that we have seen to holistic are the AIM entities, which with their sole presence bend the rules to the elements and disable magic.
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Old 2012-03-21, 22:49   Link #17502
Cosmic Eagle
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Originally Posted by Mr.Kyon View Post
I hope Imagine Breaker can somehow revert whatever Othinus did to Kagun and leave him alive as well, somehow. Touma, Fiamma, Ollerus, I know I'm being really demanding but please give Marian and Kagun a happy end. Touma, you do this and I'll never complain about you being a terribad character and a storytelling abomination.
Don't forget her furniture....>_>
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Old 2012-03-21, 22:50   Link #17503
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Updated again....

Fiamma, I (we) missed you su much .


Quote:
Originally Posted by Okashira View Post
They are product of the macro scale, but they work on a micro scale anyway. Narration wise, I feel that the closes thing that we have seen to holistic are the AIM entities, which with their sole presence bend the rules to the elements and disable magic.
You know, a certain being watching over them on another dimension is gonna get some fun soon .
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Old 2012-03-21, 22:50   Link #17504
Sumeragi
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To make this simpler:

Science Espers are focused on the individual scale for doing things.
Holistic Espers are focused on the whole scale for doing things.


Basically, Holistic Espers use the concept of Holism, the idea that natural systems and their properties, should be viewed as wholes, not as collections of parts. This often includes the view that systems somehow function as wholes and that their functioning cannot be fully understood solely in terms of their component parts.

Instead of individual AIMs (which forms the core of the Science Espers' powers), a Holistic Esper would use the understanding of the world and perhaps the universe to use powers. It's almost like how magic works in the Indexverse, although on an even greater scale.
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Old 2012-03-21, 22:50   Link #17505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Don't forget her furniture....>_>
I don't know how Touma will feel when he actually has to do the reverting.... when Ollerus claims he'll make a good (ab)use of Touma to fix everyone.
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Old 2012-03-21, 22:51   Link #17506
Swordstriker21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okashira View Post
They are product of the macro scale, but they work on a micro scale anyway. Narration wise, I feel that the closes thing that we have seen to holistic are the AIM entities, which with their sole presence bend the rules to the elements and disable magic.
So basically they are trying to achieve what Aleister did w/ Kazakiri Hyouka but this time from a fusion of magical and scientific theories?

@Sumeragi I sort of, kind of get it now. In the loosest terms of course. Thanks though.
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Old 2012-03-21, 22:52   Link #17507
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
I don't know how Touma will feel when he actually has to do the reverting.... when Ollerus claims he'll make a good (ab)use of Touma to fix everyone.
Seriously...Marian is fucked up shit....
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Old 2012-03-21, 22:54   Link #17508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swordstriker21 View Post
So basically they are trying to achieve what Aleister did w/ Kazakiri Hyouka but this time from a fusion of magical and scientific theories?
Maybe Othinus wants to call in some being like Aiwass...


Aleisters uses micro-scale and gets Aiwass.
Othinus uses macro-scale and gets Anna Sprengel? Is tha twhat she wants?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
I don't know how Touma will feel when he actually has to do the reverting.... when Ollerus claims he'll make a good (ab)use of Touma to fix everyone.
Again, his luck sucks hard .
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Old 2012-03-21, 22:55   Link #17509
Okashira
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swordstriker21 View Post
So basically they are trying to achieve what Aleister did w/ Kazakiri Hyouka but this time from a fusion of magical and scientific theories?
Nonono. What happens right now is that with the current ways of the world, Othinus is permanently "screwed".

What Othinus wants is to create a sper which could shake the foundations of the world in a major way, and use that reshuffle to readjust herself into a better position (as in, not subjected to probability). What the sper can do is totally irrelevant, as long as it can bring changes to how the world works law wise by activating it's abilities. The power itself could be something stupid as dying someone's hair of multiple colors
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Old 2012-03-21, 22:55   Link #17510
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Originally Posted by Swordstriker21 View Post
So basically they are trying to achieve what Aleister did w/ Kazakiri Hyouka but this time from a fusion of magical and scientific theories?
Well, the exact means to achieve it is unknown. But to achieve it Othinus needs something that is inside the Windowless Building.

But whatever means she use, the key lies in how the universe be bent. A repeat of the current event is not going to work, despite the holistic esper effect was achieve temporally, the rates for tragedy sky rocketed in its sphere of influence. The universe has to be bent in the right way to produce a effect that can be considered useful.
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Old 2012-03-21, 22:56   Link #17511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Seriously...Marian is fucked up shit....
You think? I kinda felt sort of sorry for her when she felt lost after Kaguns death though. That was a good plot driver. Makes her not feel so one dimensional.
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Old 2012-03-21, 22:56   Link #17512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Seriously...Marian is fucked up shit....
I feel bad for Kagun , not her . The good thing is that even a Kihara can warm up a monsterly heart like that of hers.

And as if fixing world distortions wasn't enough, Fiamma will be quite busy .
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Old 2012-03-21, 22:57   Link #17513
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Originally Posted by Okashira View Post
Narration wise, I feel that the closes thing that we have seen to holistic are the AIM entities, which with their sole presence bend the rules to the elements and disable magic.
I have to disagree with that. The AIM entities, with Fuse=KAZAKIRI as the prime example, are amalgamations of AIM into a single being, not the manipulation of the world to produce an effect.
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Old 2012-03-21, 23:01   Link #17514
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
I don't know how Touma will feel when he actually has to do the reverting.... when Ollerus claims he'll make a good (ab)use of Touma to fix everyone.
Isn't that bad, some people here wants Cendrillon back to normal .
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Old 2012-03-21, 23:01   Link #17515
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The way I see it, Aleister is going from micro to macro, while Othinus wants to go from macro to micro.

Artificial Angels aside, the effect of Imaginary School District is pretty macro, it literally is a hole on the the current world of Osiris Aeon.
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Old 2012-03-21, 23:02   Link #17516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
I feel bad for Kagun , not her . The good thing is that even a Kihara can warm up a monsterly hear like that of hers.

And as if fixing world distortions wasn't enough, Fiamma will be quite busy .
I feel sorry for Kagun too. He didn't deserve to die. Still her reaction was done in such a way that it makes you feel even "monsters" like her are human (or dverger as the case may be) too. Or maybe I'm just a sucker for swarthy skinned silver haired meganekos
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Old 2012-03-21, 23:04   Link #17517
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What's interesting about the difference between AC Science and Holism is that it's also reflected on the difference between East Asia and Western Europe, as in medicine (Eastern tries to form a balance within the body, Western tries to treat the symptoms) and address (Eastern goes from Country to individual, Western goes from individual to country). We're looking at opposite concepts working towards the same goal.
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Old 2012-03-21, 23:06   Link #17518
Okashira
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I have to disagree with that. The AIM entities, with Fuse=KAZAKIRI as the prime example, are amalgamations of AIM into a single being, not the manipulation of the world to produce an effect.
I don't remember when it was explained, but basically by creating and manifesting artificial heaven, they said that the basic rules of the elements and this world, that were basics for magic workings and the like changed. Thus, if Aleister expanded artificial heaven world wide, pretty much every magician on earth would implode from the inside out like what happens when an sper tries to use magic.

In other words AIM entities as a whole, as long as they are considered keys to the imaginary district, have an effect on how reality works. It's obviously not the same. Supposedly the theory was that they added another layer to this dimension and that screwed up the rules of occult that where created to work on the world as it is now. It's not the same, but it's like the only thing that came to my mind when they where speaking of messing the order of the universe.

I think the novel on which they explain this was either the 6th one or vol 22.
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Old 2012-03-21, 23:06   Link #17519
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Well, the exact means to achieve it is unknown. But to achieve it Othinus needs something that is inside the Windowless Building.

But whatever means she use, the key lies in how the universe be bent. A repeat of the current event is not going to work, despite the holistic esper effect was achieve temporally, the rates for tragedy sky rocketed in its sphere of influence. The universe has to be bent in the right way to produce a effect that can be considered useful.
Then what happens when Aleister eventually spreads his AIM net across the globe? And that net meets Othinus's

The Angels all fall to Earth?

Both his and Othinius plans still involve forcing one's will on the natural mechanism on a massive scale
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Old 2012-03-21, 23:09   Link #17520
Swordstriker21
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
What's interesting about the difference between AC Science and Holism is that it's also reflected on the difference between East Asia and Western Europe, as in medicine (Eastern tries to form a balance within the body, Western tries to treat the symptoms) and address (Eastern goes from Country to individual, Western goes from individual to country). We're looking at opposite concepts working towards the same goal.
It's a great analogy. And it really fits. I'm asian and there are a lot of practices here that would be considered unscientific in the medical field but are still being put into practice and still have a significant following. A really common example would be acupuncture.
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