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Old 2012-08-08, 11:22   Link #19301
tsunade666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saishy View Post
They got pretty upset after what the church did to index regarding the memories but don't seem to care she can't use magic.
Cauee its too dangerous to even let her use magic thus they didn't care much as long as the magic library is still functioning. Index herself is the hidden ace of Necesarius thus the magic controller exist and maybe the defense system is different from pendex. The defense system only activates pendex when the owner is in trouble but the pendex program itself is entirely different thus when imagine breaker destroy the defense system that cost pain to index they didn't care much about her being able to use magic or not cause if she can freely use magic then her standing in the field is almost victory on her side.
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Old 2012-08-08, 11:38   Link #19302
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But that is the point, no one cares if she is able to use magic or not.

I mean, it would be really dangerous if she could, but I don't think Kamijou is the kind of guy that cares at all. If she was being restricted by something he would fight for her right to have something.

It's just like everyone wants her to be the cute pet and stay there looking good.
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Old 2012-08-08, 11:39   Link #19303
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If I remember correctly, it says in volume 18 that if the Index had not these defense systems, it would have to have limbs hacked off and eyes sealed to ensure that she got out of hand, I think what was said by the queen when Styil is almost attacking Laura.
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Old 2012-08-08, 11:58   Link #19304
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Originally Posted by Acer View Post
If I remember correctly, it says in volume 18 that if the Index had not these defense systems, it would have to have limbs hacked off and eyes sealed to ensure that she got out of hand, I think what was said by the queen when Styil is almost attacking Laura.
Well if you think about it being a pet is not that bad...
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Old 2012-08-08, 12:07   Link #19305
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Originally Posted by Saishy View Post
I mean, it would be really dangerous if she could, but I don't think Kamijou is the kind of guy that cares at all. If she was being restricted by something he would fight for her right to have something.
Touma probably doesn't remember half this crap.
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Old 2012-08-08, 12:41   Link #19306
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If Index can use magic freely then she would be treated as a living weapon. For now her main role is to support them by analysis of the enemy's magic as well as providing information. If she can use magic freely she would become a living weapon in the eyes of the church, as well as one of the most dangerous entities to all the other churches.

Hell, I'm betting that's one of the conditions that allows Necessarius to gain access to the Vatican's libraries for their books, is that they 'swear' she wouldn't be able to use their magic.

But more importantly, does Index herself want to use magic? Does she particular care if she doesn't become this ultimate weapon? I know Touma certainly wouldn't want that for her, especially since it would mean Necessarius would keep her on a far tighter leash and put her in the path of danger more often.

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2012-08-08 at 12:54.
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Old 2012-08-08, 14:05   Link #19307
desrtsku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saishy View Post
The defensive system was completely destroyed, they never mention anything about Pendex having more than one module attached to it and only discover when Fiamma get holds of the controller. (But the way they react it seems they knew she still had Pendex).

But they assume the mana was being used for the auto-defensive system and she would regain it over time. (When they destroy and she still can't use mana they assume it was because she have kept it for too long).

But even after so much time and no signs of her mana even comming back, nobody seems to care at all!
I mean, they never really mentioned "Oh, she still don't have her mana, maybe she still have something from the church inside? Let Imagine Breaker destroy it" zero, no fucks given at all.

They got pretty upset after what the church did to index regarding the memories but don't seem to care she can't use magic.
Hoy, what the hell are you talking about? It's not like nobody cared, it's just because the thing that blocks her mana is still there (and it's not like several years passed since then either >.>) ... how many times do I have to tell that? If it's just about Styil and the other though, why would they care about that? Isn't it better if she can't use magic at all?

There's nothing like "discovered another module" anywhere in that volume but more like Pendex is composed of many devices. Also, that auto-defense system is essentially just "Pendex using magic" ... and Pendex could use magic in vol 18 = it wasn't destroyed but just damaged, it's just as simple as that.
... ok, I'm sure you're going to quote me with the epilogue of Vol 1 about that and I'll just answer by saying : "you're taking subjective comments from the characters too highly : just because Styil thought Johan's Pen was destroyed doesn't mean it was actually the case (it was just damage, sir), ... also he never said it was "completely destroyed but just "destroyed" ".

Oh, damn I'll do it myself
Quote:
However, she used magic based on the 103,000 grimoires when in the John’s Pen mode the church prepared. Now that John’s Pen has been destroyed, it is possible she can use magic of her own free will now. If the destruction of John’s Pen has caused her magic power to recover, we must reorganize our strength.
Styil said everything in a conditional tone = it's not sure if Index could really recover her mana after Pendex' destruction ... well it doesn't matter since Pendex was never COMPLETELY DESTROYED but just DAMAGED. or do I have to quote in the part when Fiamma (and the others) said it?!
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Old 2012-08-08, 15:08   Link #19308
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I don't even know what you are saying and rambling about.

Halfway through your post (halfway? At the begin actually) you assumed what I would say and started discussing alone against someone that does not exist :2

I never said pendex was destroyed, I said the defensive mechanism was destroyed, and it was.
You could say it was "damaged" but it was "damaged beyond repair and losing the ability to function" which is actually the same thing as "destroyed".

I said they assumed the defensive mechanism was using the mana, therefore not letting anything left to Index and once it was destroyed they assumed she would get her mana back.
Which wasn't the case.


They know she still have the John Pen mode, they know they only destroyed the defensive collar.
I was just wondering why they never thought she must have something else that is able to use magic because indeed her mana wasn't coming back.
I would guess that having something that allows her to use magic, regardless if only the church has access or not, IS pretty dangerous.
Which turns to be true when Fiamma steals the controller and everyone is like "fuck fuck fuck fuck"


Nutshell: My point is, they shouldn't be surprised when Fiamma got the pen controller because it was obvious she still had something controlling her.
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Old 2012-08-08, 16:01   Link #19309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saishy View Post
They know she still have the John Pen mode, they know they only destroyed the defensive collar.
I was just wondering why they never thought she must have something else that is able to use magic because indeed her mana wasn't coming back.
I would guess that having something that allows her to use magic, regardless if only the church has access or not, IS pretty dangerous.
Which turns to be true when Fiamma steals the controller and everyone is like "fuck fuck fuck fuck"


Nutshell: My point is, they shouldn't be surprised when Fiamma got the pen controller because it was obvious she still had something controlling her.
I think Style and Kaori and the others minus Laura and the upper echelon probably doesn't know about Pendex is still functioning and I also doubt that Styl and the others know about the controller. Isn't it the reason why Styl was surprised and angry is because he doesn't know it and Laura counters that "she is dangerous and they can let her roam free without something that can be used against her" which is the controller thus I doubt that Styl and the others know about it and about Index being not being able to use mana isn't it because Index said herself that she is special (or so what she believed) that she was chosen to become a container of magic library because she can't use magic but when she use magic all turns sh*t for the others which what happen in vol 1.

Assuming that Styl and the others think that her mana will return but if it doesn't return then they will think its because she doesn't have mana (which is weird) but isn't that what she really is? a container for the magic library.

She is not a weapon (in normal way) in the eyes of the church (for the lower guys) She is a treasure and a compilation of magical books thus she not being able to wield magic is a perfect thing for them because she won't be dangerous on her own. Thus Styl and the others (again) probably believe that its fine and alright or its rather normal and even if they assume that it should be returning but originally she was meant to not use mana. So why ask if she can use magic if she is meant not to use it?

They probably think that the defense mechanism is the source of her mana that time or rather its the fault which she can use magic. They can think like that if she still can't use mana after removing it.

Well that's what they probably want to believe. Specially the ones close to her. Thus they are surprised on what happen in vol 18 when she uses magic and turn into pendex again because they "thought" it was destroyed by imagine breaker which apparently not. Maybe IB destroyed the defense mechanism or probably a different set of mechanism at all or maybe its just safe setting for her memory or lock setting for the magic books, not sure on this one. Style and the lower guys probably can't read or even even know a thing of what transpires inside the head of the leaders of the factions. Like Laura and the royal bloods. They are just pawns and pawns are meant to be used and not think about it.
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Last edited by tsunade666; 2012-08-08 at 17:18.
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Old 2012-08-08, 16:21   Link #19310
Saishy
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As you said they know pendex is still working, kamijou destroyed two things according to the pendex, the collar which made the whole memory problem and the defensive mechanism.

Besides those two I only remember the remote control as another revealed mechanism of the pen mode.

We can safely assume Pendex does not use mana, they knew about it and that she can't use mana and Styil is a specialist in mana flow as he say when they are inside Misawa cram school, it would be stupid to assume he did not notice an usage of mana by pendex.
(By mana I'm assuming the refined life force, since all living beings have a kind of rough magic force that is their life as you can see besides the explanation of why imagine breaker don't kill people on touch. It could be possible to pendex to operate on pure life force)

When the defensive mechanism is used she uses mana in large scales which to Kanzaki and Styil shock Kamijou replies that the fact Index can't use mana is a lie made by the church.


Later on we see Stiyl got very upset when he find about the remote control thing, but if we see the fact that pendex alone is not blocking her mana it was obvious she still had more mechanisms inside pendex.
I would guess Stiyl would like to find anything else the church might have done to her, but he was happy enough about the destruction of the first collar mechanism and never showed interest in researching further on.
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Old 2012-08-08, 16:58   Link #19311
desrtsku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saishy View Post
-snip-
Ok, I'll calm down and think of the possibilities why you didn't get what I meant.

1- My apologies, I think I haven't explained my point well enough, but now I understand where the problem lies. That defensive system was just a part of Pendex that let her use magic/grimmoires to defend herself, and maintaining all those defensive layers is what kept her from using magic according to the 3rd person POV ... and that's how it is, the whole point of Pendex is about using the magic instead of Index. If Pendex is destroyed then any of those defensive layers won't exist anymore, it's just as simple as that.
And no Styil really believed that Pendex was destroyed for good = no more Pendex => no more defensive layers to maintain => no more things that drained her mana. It was only the higher who knew that wasn't the case

2- ok quote me where they said : "the defensive system was destroyed" and not "Pendex was destroyed" or "the collar was destroyed"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Saishy View Post
Nutshell: My point is, they shouldn't be surprised when Fiamma got the pen controller because it was obvious she still had something controlling her.
My point is :
1-Styil didn't know, so yes he'd go "WTH happened?! You damn Laura Why did you made her suffer?!"
2-Touma lost his memory so "HTW should he know what Pendex is in the first place"
3-Laura and Elizard knew AND they also remained stoic knowing about the thing
4-Carissa went "OH, crap he got the controller this is bad! Now he can control Pendex!" and not "WTH is going on?"
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Old 2012-08-08, 17:23   Link #19312
tsunade666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saishy View Post
As you said they know pendex is still working, kamijou destroyed two things according to the pendex, the collar which made the whole memory problem and the defensive mechanism.
I edit my post.

I think the people who know Pendex still exist is Laura and the royal bloods. Styl and the lower guys doesn't know about it.

And I think Styl "probably" believe that its destroyed and thus Index was alright again and she is back to normal and probably can start using magic but her using magic is bad thus when she remains the same as can't use magic. All was fine for them as long as she's alright.

The original objective of their suffering isn't really pendex but the pain that Index receive while nearing the end of the year and its still not pass a year so we can't confirm if the thing IB destroyed "the collar" is the source of Pendex or just her suffering or its probably one of the messed up mechanism the church installed on her. But for Styl, Kaori and Touma. Index is not suffering anymore of her memory being erased thus they are alright with it.

They didn't actually care with Pendex because its not their objective. Their objective is to save Index. Pendex was just a defense mechanism activate to protect Index when the "collar" was threaten of being destroyed. It didn't confirmed that Pendex and Collar is the same thing.
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Old 2012-08-08, 17:49   Link #19313
Saishy
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Ok this can get long so for simplicity sake let's assume a common point that we can both agree and go from there:

Quote:
Originally Posted by desrtsku View Post
If Pendex is destroyed then any of those defensive layers won't exist anymore, it's just as simple as that.
And no Styil really believed that Pendex was destroyed for good = no more Pendex => no more defensive layers to maintain => no more things that drained her mana. It was only the higher who knew that wasn't the case
So yeah, I don't actually agree with everything here but the details don't matter, this is a good point to base the theory.

So for simplicity sake let's focus on Styil.

The facts:

- Styil believed Pendex was using all of Index's mana.
- Styil believed the destruction of Pendex would stop the mana drain.
- Styil believed Pendex was no more.

So what happens from here on is that Index's mana does not go back, yet Styil shows no sign of concern as if Pendex was still active or not.

Before we had the Index's collar (the memory function) in her mouth at full view for anyone to see, the only reason nobody discovered was that nobody actually thought of looking for it. Nobody thought the church had done anything to her, everybody thought the memory problem was to blame.

That is like If your wood table is being eaten by termites and I say the birds are pecking it, you will never be able to find the insects because you are simply not looking for them. You will only be able to try to scare any bird that approaches the table even if just a simply examination would be able to tell that the termites are to blame.

But after the "supposed Pendex destruction" Styil knew the church had done something.

Then the only and unique question I impose, based on those facts, is:

"When even after Styil believed Pendex was gone, Index's mana wasn't coming back. Why he never tried a thoroughly examination of Index?"

Edit: You made an answer regarding this in the previous post:

Quote:
And I think Styl "probably" believe that its destroyed and thus Index was alright again and she is back to normal and probably can start using magic but her using magic is bad thus when she remains the same as can't use magic. All was fine for them as long as she's alright.
Sorry but I don't accept it.
- Magicians are able to sense if another person is a magician just by sensing it's mana, because it is in greater amount than a normal person, even if slightly.
- A normal person is able to use magic.
- Index don't have mana, therefore is unable to perform magic.

If her mana would go back to a normal person level, I'm absolutely sure Styil would be able to notice.
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Old 2012-08-08, 18:11   Link #19314
desrtsku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saishy View Post
"When even after Styil believed Pendex was gone, Index's mana wasn't coming back. Why he never tried a thoroughly examination of Index?"
LOL Sorry again seems like you misunderstood something, when I said Styil "believed" it was only meant for the "Pendex was gone" (just to explain my point about how the mana draining "worked" for "Pendex" instead of simply "defensive system"), the other ones were hypothetical in the POV of Styil ...

oh well, I already posted the quote, this was in Styil's letter you know

Quote:
However, she used magic based on the 103,000 grimoires when in the John’s Pen mode the church prepared. Now that John’s Pen has been destroyed, it is possible she can use magic of her own free will now. If the destruction of John’s Pen has caused her magic power to recover, we must reorganize our strength.
Did that answer your question? He wasn't sure what might actually happen = it's obviously behind his knowledge, how can he even be sure she'll really regain her mana? (or more like how can we be sure ) ...

: If you carefully read my post above you shouldn't have asked this -_- ...


EDIT
: oh ok that's what your edit was for, my bad again ...
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Old 2012-08-08, 18:16   Link #19315
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I thought that mana had to be 'made' in a person. They have to go through all those rituals to refine it their life force into mana right? If that's the case then Index wouldn't have any mana simply because she hasn't gone through the process of making more.
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Old 2012-08-08, 18:37   Link #19316
Miraluka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saishy View Post
Later on we see Stiyl got very upset when he find about the remote control thing, but if we see the fact that pendex alone is not blocking her mana it was obvious she still had more mechanisms inside pendex.
I would guess Stiyl would like to find anything else the church might have done to her, but he was happy enough about the destruction of the first collar mechanism and never showed interest in researching further on.
Now that I think about it, Styil has been missing since vol.22, so far he didn't show up .

Also, Index knows the techniques and process on the body that needs to be done in order to perform magic thus she can execute Sheol Fear and Spell Intercept even if those requires no mana to be performed.
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Old 2012-08-08, 18:40   Link #19317
Kenju of the Right
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Awesome Theory says he tried to kill Laura but died an epic death..........but that's highly unlikely
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He did not have extraordinary athletic ability.
He did not have the intellect or skill of a superhuman genius.
He did not have the fortune needed to run a nation.
He did not have the deductive ability to resolve any incident from his easy chair.
He did not have the beauty to ruin a country with a smile.
He did not have the political power to change history with a snap of his fingers.
He did not have the unbelievable power of a Level 5.
But…
Nevertheless… -

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Old 2012-08-08, 18:42   Link #19318
Saishy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilidsor View Post
I thought that mana had to be 'made' in a person. They have to go through all those rituals to refine it their life force into mana right? If that's the case then Index wouldn't have any mana simply because she hasn't gone through the process of making more.
Actually making mana is as simply as breathing.
Of course magicians can produce more mana and refine their life force better, but normal people also produce mana.
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Old 2012-08-08, 21:10   Link #19319
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Originally Posted by Saishy View Post
Actually making mana is as simply as breathing.
Of course magicians can produce more mana and refine their life force better, but normal people also produce mana.
But isn't that just raw life force or energy meant to be used or refine into mana?

Its like minerals that need to be mined but still needs refinement to be used.

Now that makes me confused though the answer should be obvious that the church did something so she can't use magic because every living being should have that raw material that can be used for magic. And index being not been able to produce mana is a mystery indeed and she herself that knows everything about magic just believe that she can't produce it thus making her perfect container for magic books is absurd.

I think not every magician can feel magical powers from the others. Styl is just sensitive or skilled about it but even if his skilled it doesn't mean he is sure on the cause of why Index can't use magic just like how they didn't know and believe the lie the church gave them as an explanation.
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Old 2012-08-08, 21:19   Link #19320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPG_Fanatic View Post
Since no one has thought of this yet, what if the person who denies his normal life with Index and Mikoto is his Mother. After seeing wandering Russia on TV during the war, and being told is is dead, then alive by Academy City with no explanation, she goes to Academy City during Ichihanaransai to confront him about his currently lifestyle. Perhaps threatening to bring him home?
Aleister would have her murdered as a result. He tried to kill Mikoto's mother the moment she started organizing a movement to get Misaka out of Academy City in the wake of WWIII. Misaka's portion of his plan is pretty done, and he still wouldn't let her go, there's no way that he's letting Touma leave like that.

It was one thing when he was slipped out by Birdway, but he'll be dam*ed before he lets an concerned mother interfere with his plans.

Also, didn't Touma just destroy the reason the memory wipe occurs and not the safety mode itself?
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