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Old 2010-03-05, 11:42   Link #1941
Chaos2Frozen
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The thing is, magic goes way back in comparison to the recent scientific development of Esper powers, so I would think that they'll have a head start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
I also bet for the saints, IMPOV only awaken espers like Nš1 and Nš2 can match saints.
Aqua is one thing... But can't Mikoto give Kaori a run for her money??
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Old 2010-03-05, 12:22   Link #1942
Miraluka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post

Aqua is one thing... But can't Mikoto give Kaori a run for her money??
Index said saints, talking about average saints, so no.

A saint is super in all aspects(reflects, strenght, agility, resistance, etc) and Kaori also can use long range attacks(physical and magical), Mikoto can think fast but she can't move fast at the same time. She is just a normal girl with powers, not a warrior.
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Last edited by Miraluka; 2010-04-29 at 20:05.
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Old 2010-03-05, 12:41   Link #1943
giorno
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would mikoto even stand a chance against someone wearing the walking church? actually, would *any* esper stand a chance against someone like anieze, wearing the walking curch and having spells that directly strike her target, basically rendering any defense like accelerator's redirection useless?
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Old 2010-03-05, 13:36   Link #1944
tsunade666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
The thing is, magic goes way back in comparison to the recent scientific development of Esper powers, so I would think that they'll have a head start.

Aqua is one thing... But can't Mikoto give Kaori a run for her money??

Chaoz have you forgotten that Kaoir fend of an Angel. Angel Gabriel well its really a one sided match but she HOLD ON!!!! against a REAL ANGEL!!!. To give time for touma to settle things. A single word of an angel can destroy half of the earth. its a good thing gabi doesn't have any orders to do so. But even if SHE FENDED OFF AN ANGEL!!! ANGEL!!!!!!

can you even guess the gaps of their strength.

if the magic side decided to squash the academy city they could even against an artificial angel ( as long as Aiwass doesn't butt in ) But the problem is on the magic side they are tooooooo many factions. One faction isn't enough to beat academy city.

The only confirmed saint out of 20 around the world is Kaori which fend off an angel. Aqua which is a dual saint and fight a one sided match against a kaori which is also a saint ( super man ) then lastly is Aurerelus which had been said to master the epitome of magic. I'm not sure of Silvia though. But each of every confirm saints are monster class. Level 5 wouldn't even hurt them. Unless they awaken. Index said that Accel's Awakening is similar to the power of saint. Adding up various artifact that makes one wield the power of saint or power to wipe an city on the face of the planet.

The science side is strong but its just that the magic side is too strong for me. Which makes me even more respect touma for surviving the magic side events. Even the science side had the artificial angel well its more like an angel or occult stuff for me. Specially if the chairman of the magic side is the greatest magician that ever lived.
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Old 2010-03-05, 13:58   Link #1945
Miraluka
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It doesn't help that the leader of A.C is an ex-magician.
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Old 2010-03-05, 18:45   Link #1946
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Who knows?! A saint is super in all aspects(reflects, strenght, agility, resistance, etc) and Kaori also can use long range attacks(physical and magical), Mikoto can think fast but she can't move fast at the same time. She is just a normal girl with powers, not a warrior.
While I agree that you can't compare a student to someone who has been bred to fight, Mikoto has proven herself to be a very good fighter.

Also, I don't recall Kaori being able to do all that you've mentioned. The strength and speed I know, but I never heard that she can reflect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by giorno View Post
would mikoto even stand a chance against someone wearing the walking church? actually, would *any* esper stand a chance against someone like anieze, wearing the walking curch and having spells that directly strike her target, basically rendering any defense like accelerator's redirection useless?
See the thing is, Anieze's attack could be negated by Touma's hand when he place it in the direction that it's coming from. In addition, she took a mighty long time to chant before her spell was activate. And her attacks aren't exactly strong, sure they would hurt, but compared to a Railgun or a unstable electron beam?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
if the magic side decided to squash the academy city they could even against an artificial angel ( as long as Aiwass doesn't butt in ) But the problem is on the magic side they are tooooooo many factions. One faction isn't enough to beat academy city.
The only faction that wants to destroy Academy City is the RCC.

And since when is Aurerelus a Saint?! That wasn't mentioned before...
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Old 2010-03-05, 18:55   Link #1947
giorno
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but anieze's magic would do some damage...on the other hand, would a rail gun or an unstable electron beam get through the walking church?
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Old 2010-03-05, 19:05   Link #1948
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giorno View Post
but anieze's magic would do some damage...on the other hand, would a rail gun or an unstable electron beam get through the walking church?
Uncertain to be honest.

Well, if we're going to take it literally, and that a Walking Church is literally like a building, then I'm sure both of them could destroy an actual Church.

My opinion is, a few of these magicians are quite uneducated about modern science. Back when Walking Church was created possibly a few hundred of years, people only had swords and arrows and spells, so Walking Church could block ALL of those. Fast forward to modern days where we have cannons and bombs and missiles and railguns, could you say that the Walking Church still does what it says on the label? Would a magician know exactly how powerful those weapons really are? Would they understand the kind of forces at work when an object travelling three times the speed of sound and impacts anything??
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Old 2010-03-05, 19:22   Link #1949
giorno
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well, it's meant to protect from magic, i'm pretty sure there are plenty of spells of similar power

i heard somewhere that you'd need something on the level of dragon's breath to break through the walking church's defense...anyone can confirm or rebuke this? because if it's true, i seriously doubt anyone from the science side could even do anything to a battle nun...
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Old 2010-03-05, 20:14   Link #1950
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giorno View Post
well, it's meant to protect from magic, i'm pretty sure there are plenty of spells of similar power

i heard somewhere that you'd need something on the level of dragon's breath to break through the walking church's defense...anyone can confirm or rebuke this? because if it's true, i seriously doubt anyone from the science side could even do anything to a battle nun...

Nonono... Not all of them is wearing a Walking Church, that would be too overpowered. Also, without a fair comparison in power, we can only speculate. We're not even sure how Walking Church works. Although I'm pretty sure there's nothing similar to a Railgun attack in Magic. Hell, how much could they know about electromagnetism to reproduce it's effect in magic?

But it's like I've said, Esper doesn't know how magic works but the opposite holds true, Magicians don't know how AIM works either, they wouldn't know about stuff like particle manipulation and teleportation no more than Espers would know about Angels and Runes. We don't know what would happen when AIM goes up against Magic, would the spell even work as it should? AIM rejects Magic and sometimes screw with it. How do you defend against the unknown?
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Old 2010-03-05, 21:00   Link #1951
giorno
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simply put, a railgun is a gun which shoots an extremely fast bullet, which thus carries a tremendous amount of kinetic energy and thus is extremely powerful. Using electromagnetism isn't the only way to do that, you think the magicians don't have spells to do something like that? Heck, accelerator can probably do better than mikoto's railgun if he puts his mind to it...

same with particle manipulation and teleportation, they may see them in a different way, have different understanding and use different means, but at the end of the day, it's likely that they can do the same thing...
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Old 2010-03-05, 21:16   Link #1952
redadonis
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Well, since the royal's Iron Fortress (or was it Iron Wall?) thing can literally survive for at least 3 days when thrown into the sun it's safe to say that the WC, a lesser version of IF would be able to withstand a railgun.

On the topic of science vs out dated magic, the knight leader was able to completely disarm a dozen missiles with a spell that's at least 500 years old.... The magics are very concept heavy things, so as long as it fits the slot it would accept anything. At least that's how I see it.

Isn't AIM supposed to be a whole new system? I thought that's why crowlly started the AC and power research, he wanted to create a system by himself. So anyone who use magic in this new system would be rejected by this new reality. Although I wonder why the opposite would only happens when the esper tries to cast a spell though.... I guess magic really is for those who have absolutely no powers.
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Old 2010-03-05, 22:01   Link #1953
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giorno View Post
simply put, a railgun is a gun which shoots an extremely fast bullet, which thus carries a tremendous amount of kinetic energy and thus is extremely powerful. Using electromagnetism isn't the only way to do that, you think the magicians don't have spells to do something like that? Heck, accelerator can probably do better than mikoto's railgun if he puts his mind to it...
(Accelerator isn't a magician, but I get what you mean... -_-)

The only other spell that I know of that can replicate that is the Grimoire [Rabbit and Moon]. But you see, Magicians would never know to take into account the Heat from discharging a coin at supersonic speed, enough to burn wood. They would never know about the air pressure reproduced from such an attack and other little details-

...Okay, maybe I'm getting sidetracked too much with this. Going back to the original question, whether Walking Church could defend against a Railgun attack, the truth is that we don't know how does it work. If it's like any other armor then we can assume that with enough force, it CAN be destroyed. And pretty much nothing at the moment can take one of Mikoto's Railgun head on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by giorno View Post
same with particle manipulation and teleportation, they may see them in a different way, have different understanding and use different means, but at the end of the day, it's likely that they can do the same thing...
I can't exactly say that they could or couldn't, but could you imagine which divine being they'll have to invoke to cause a graviton to spin out of control ?

Magicians, COMMON magicians, require to borrow powers from other sources, and then write them into spells using formulas.


Quote:
Originally Posted by redadonis View Post
Well, since the royal's Iron Fortress (or was it Iron Wall?) thing can literally survive for at least 3 days when thrown into the sun it's safe to say that the WC, a lesser version of IF would be able to withstand a railgun.
I really don't trust/like the Author's exggerated comparisons and I tend to take things at face value. I mean, it's not like those Magicians threw one into the sun to test it out. But that's just me.

Even if that's the case, we don't know how much of a 'weaker' version is the Walking Church. All we know is what Index said, and that is the clothes have properties of an actual Church, assuming whatever can destroy a building, can take out that Clothes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by redadonis View Post
On the topic of science vs out dated magic, the knight leader was able to completely disarm a dozen missiles with a spell that's at least 500 years old.... The magics are very concept heavy things, so as long as it fits the slot it would accept anything. At least that's how I see it.
Hmmm, interesting, can you tell me the details of that spell?


Quote:
Originally Posted by redadonis View Post
Isn't AIM supposed to be a whole new system? I thought that's why crowlly started the AC and power research, he wanted to create a system by himself. So anyone who use magic in this new system would be rejected by this new reality. Although I wonder why the opposite would only happens when the esper tries to cast a spell though.... I guess magic really is for those who have absolutely no powers.
Only really concentrated AIM field does that to Magicians.
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Old 2010-03-05, 22:04   Link #1954
Miraluka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
While I agree that you can't compare a student to someone who has been bred to fight, Mikoto has proven herself to be a very good fighter.
Yeah but most of her fights were one-sided for her or for her enemies. The only good fights I saw from her were the one against Frenda(just with a lie made her unable to use her powers, thats tactics) and the one against Kiyama, the others like against Touma can't be called a fight since he doesn't take it serious.

Quote:
Also, I don't recall Kaori being able to do all that you've mentioned. The strength and speed I know, but I never heard that she can reflect.
And also she can cast many magic formulas meanwhile fights. Ooops I mean reflexes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
AIM rejects Magic and sometimes screw with it. How do you defend against the unknown?
Only Accelerator and Imaginary District's AIM can do that. The other AIM are too weak to screw with the magic.
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Old 2010-03-05, 22:37   Link #1955
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Yeah but most of her fights were one-sided for her or for her enemies. The only good fights I saw from her were the one against Frenda(just with a lie made her unable to use her powers, thats tactics) and the one against Kiyama, the others like against Touma can't be called a fight since he doesn't take it serious.
Likewise, most of Kaori's fights are onesided for her as well.

Only Gabriel and Aqua gave her a run for her money, but she didn't defeat Gabriel and need the Amakusa's help for Aqua.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
And also she can cast many magic formulas meanwhile fights. Ooops I mean reflexes.
True, but Mikoto didn't need to waste time with formulas now does she...
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Old 2010-03-05, 22:52   Link #1956
Miraluka
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She doesn't wast her time, is easy for a saint to cast a spell without blink. The fight become one-sided when she started to get tired, too much divine for her body in prolonged laps of times. Acqua is, you know, his a superman .
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Old 2010-03-05, 22:54   Link #1957
redadonis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Hmmm, interesting, can you tell me the details of that spell?
http://www12.atwiki.jp/index-index/pages/1762.html


ソーロルムの術式 Solomu's formulas (not too sure about the origin but there was a bit about it in the novel)

Regardless it's magical or scientific as long as the caster can identify it then the offensive value of the weapon can be "Set to zero".

This effects lasts around 10mins. In the case of projectiles like bullet or arrows they would loose all momentum and becomes useless. Explosives would need other interferences to explode after the effect expires.

The bunker cluster missile that I talked about (it was just one >_>, I got the 200 thing mixed up with it) pretty much just stopped all functions and fall out of the sky after been "Set to zero". One thing worth noting is that the missile bounced around on the pavement and caused no damage at all.

Knight leader also mentioned that in theory it can affect nukes, he didn't elaborate much on it though.

This spell can only affect something that uses a weapon/medium, so anything that's purely magical/power related won't be affected by it.

Some last notes, if the caster can't see the weapon then the spell can't be casted. Also if the attacker is a royalty it won't be affected by it. (as a safe fail)
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Old 2010-03-06, 01:26   Link #1958
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Also, the spell can only target one weapon in a single casting, and you can only say so many "set to zero" in a second.

Also, in the case of magic side attacking Academy City.... I'll just say it'll never going to work.
Why? Kazakiri, all mages are in slow death as long as they enter her domain.

Now, remeber the the city is big, while the mages advance, the effect of AIM well slowly cripples them. Thus no direct confrontation is needed. Academy City just need to by time. Long range snapping, send out a few Six Wings, have Accelerator toss out few buildings with Earth's rotation momentum... you know drag the battle long enough and the mages are all eventually going to die in the AIM field. Plus, the defeat of Academy City means the defeat of Crowley..... and that means getting pass his window less building. It'll only waste magcians even more time to bypass that obstacle. Really, even mages do have more raw power, but Academy City have as much ways to buy themselves time, and once tiem up, magicians all die.
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Old 2010-03-06, 02:00   Link #1959
redadonis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Also, the spell can only target one weapon in a single casting, and you can only say so many "set to zero" in a second.

Also, in the case of magic side attacking Academy City.... I'll just say it'll never going to work.
Why? Kazakiri, all mages are in slow death as long as they enter her domain.

Now, remeber the the city is big, while the mages advance, the effect of AIM well slowly cripples them. Thus no direct confrontation is needed. Academy City just need to by time. Long range snapping, send out a few Six Wings, have Accelerator toss out few buildings with Earth's rotation momentum... you know drag the battle long enough and the mages are all eventually going to die in the AIM field. Plus, the defeat of Academy City means the defeat of Crowley..... and that means getting pass his window less building. It'll only waste magcians even more time to bypass that obstacle. Really, even mages do have more raw power, but Academy City have as much ways to buy themselves time, and once tiem up, magicians all die.
You forgot how much high powered range weapons magic side has (dragon breath alone shot down a satellite).... even worse there are artifacts that can affects the existences it's self and others can completely over rides something.

AIM is still completely useless outside of the city, FUSE wasn't even on the same level of Queen of the Adriatic. Each shot needs time to charge and did as about a bit more damage than mikado's black shots. Even if accelerator master the AIM vector and some how gain control of the misaka network + FUSE it's still not enough for the AIM system to overrides the current one.

Crowlly's plan is still not close to completions yet..... I'm pretty sure he's also aiming for what fatima is trying to accomplish. But he's taking the long way instead.

Also on a side note, who said the magic side HAS to be magic only?

Regarding to that spell been single only.... I won't be surprised if it can be casted on a ship or on a even larger scale, a whole base.
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Old 2010-03-06, 02:06   Link #1960
tsunade666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post

The only faction that wants to destroy Academy City is the RCC.

And since when is Aurerelus a Saint?! That wasn't mentioned before...
Is he not the saint? or is it salvi the saint? I'm confused but heck Aurrelus is strong I can consider him a saint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Also, the spell can only target one weapon in a single casting, and you can only say so many "set to zero" in a second.

Also, in the case of magic side attacking Academy City.... I'll just say it'll never going to work.
Why? Kazakiri, all mages are in slow death as long as they enter her domain.

Now, remeber the the city is big, while the mages advance, the effect of AIM well slowly cripples them. Thus no direct confrontation is needed. Academy City just need to by time. Long range snapping, send out a few Six Wings, have Accelerator toss out few buildings with Earth's rotation momentum... you know drag the battle long enough and the mages are all eventually going to die in the AIM field. Plus, the defeat of Academy City means the defeat of Crowley..... and that means getting pass his window less building. It'll only waste magcians even more time to bypass that obstacle. Really, even mages do have more raw power, but Academy City have as much ways to buy themselves time, and once tiem up, magicians all die.
Forgot about that field. The AIM field that Fuze=kazakiri release is the ultimate protection of the science side against the magic side. And the stronger the magician or the stronger the magic cast on. The stronger its effects. Just like what happen to vent. His internal organ almost scramble and she begun loosing control over her judgment of what ever you call cheat spell and start hitting around the world.

Accelerator also produce the same effect but with a lower degree though its still an AIM field which is dangerous to magicians.

If its walking church vs railgun...... who knows. Index said that walking church is an impenetrable shield but she is the only one who wields its. Making an iron fortress to protect the holder of diabolic books. But since touma destroyed it. Its not been repaired since. Maybe it loose its value once touma is her guardian. Plus the railgun in story. Doesn't seem railgun to me more like a laser beam if you ask me.
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