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Old 2009-06-21, 01:48   Link #561
jwai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lord of Hats View Post
With the Shamrock, outfit it with the flamethrower attachment as soon as possible. The mortar isn't as strong as the Edelweiss's, and the gatling gun just isn't really worth it. Which brings me to my next point: Flamethrowers.

It takes a fair amount of investment to get them to the point where they're worth it, and you have to be confident about charging the enemy, but used correctly they'll tear the enemy to shreds. Just run up in the enemy's face, right in front of their barricade, and burn them. The ace flamethrowers, as well as the upper-level ones, can pretty much ensure that unless they dodge, they die. What's especially useful is that you fire in the entire arc, so with a bit of planning, you can burn multiple enemies. I've gotten up to four kills at once, and that's just with a trooper flamethrower; the Shamrock flamethrower does more damage, has a longer range, and I believe a wider arc.
That being said, how do you manage two tanks at once? That's a lot of CP's to chew up.
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Old 2009-06-21, 03:05   Link #562
grylsyjaeger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwai View Post
That being said, how do you manage two tanks at once? That's a lot of CP's to chew up.
Well it comes down to the situation. Some missions you might not move the Edelweiss or the Shamrock. Sometimes neither if you can accomplish the mission with just infantry.

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Originally Posted by Guppy View Post
I can see how that would work brilliantly in tight, cluttered terrain, but in the open field I just found the troopers' mobility too limited to get close enough with the short-ranged Imperial SMGs.

My favourite tank-hunter on open maps was Alicia with a Gallian A20 and the Demolition Boost order. Plenty of mobility to circle around for radiator shots (especially if Double Movement goes off), Resist Crossfire allows her to handle all but the thickest of enemy opportunity fire, and Mysterious Body takes care of any health you lose. Highly inefficient for killing single tanks, but 6 CP isn't too bad for knocking out three enemy tanks spread across the width of the map in one turn.
I always gave Alicia the ZM Kar 5 (g) since she has the highest accuracy of any scout. She makes that rifle work great. It's high anti-vehicle damage is good too.

Plus it's probably my favourite conceptual weapon from the game. I love the enclosed sight line between the front and rear sights.
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Old 2009-06-21, 03:14   Link #563
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Originally Posted by fallschirmjager View Post
I always gave alicia the ZM Kar 5 (g) since she has the highest accuracy of any scout. She makes that rifle work great. It's high anti-vehicle damage is good too.
I had Alicia carrying ZM Kars for most of the game - it effectively turned her into a fast, fragile shocktrooper, which was very handy when playing with the game's favoured rush style.

I always favoured the Gallian-A20 over the ZM Kar 5, though; seven shots versus five closed the firepower gap considerably, and the Gallian's superior range and accuracy made it a much more flexible weapon across a range of tactical situations.
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Old 2009-06-21, 05:38   Link #564
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Originally Posted by Guppy View Post
I always favoured the Gallian-A20 over the ZM Kar 5, though; seven shots versus five closed the firepower gap considerably, and the Gallian's superior range and accuracy made it a much more flexible weapon across a range of tactical situations.
This is indeed true.

Every other Scout carried the A-Series in my game with the odd exception of using the Royal S-Series with my top Scouts.
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Old 2009-06-21, 09:47   Link #565
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I didn't use the S-Series ever. I prefer power over the final additional bits of accuracy. At some point the additional accuracy becomes a little pointless given how close I get my units to their targets and I'm more concerned about damage dealt (say, if I do miss the head will a body shot be of use?).

As for orders... Very rarely did I use them, let alone stack them. In fact last night was one of the first times I really experimented with orders other than Defense Boost and Evade Boost. I was playing Showdown at Naggiar (2) and had a ton of extra CP on the 3rd turn so I saved and just started blowing CP on orders to see what they did (like Sniper Support, Mortar support, status ups, etc.) and reloading when I ran out. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't ever use half of the orders if ordered to. They just aren't worth the expense to me.
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Old 2009-06-21, 10:10   Link #566
Guppy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
I didn't use the S-Series ever. I prefer power over the final additional bits of accuracy. At some point the additional accuracy becomes a little pointless given how close I get my units to their targets and I'm more concerned about damage dealt (say, if I do miss the head will a body shot be of use?).
Like fallschirmjager, I used the Royal S-series on my main scouts for most of the late game. Good damage, great accuracy and only a bit less range.

The equation changes as soon as you get the A20, though. Its extra two shots make a huge difference which basically neutralises the accuracy gains of the S20 or S20R, because you only have to be 70% accurate (5 hits from 7 shots) to get the same effect as a perfect burst from any other rifle (except the ZM Kar 5 with its superior damage, but I found that 7 hits from the A20 usually did the job just as well as 5 hits from the Kar 5, and the A20 could reach out much further).

I did use the S-series on my engineers, because I realised that the extra range and accuracy was actually more useful on units that were hanging back from the front lines. Even the A20's extra two shots weren't compensating for the engineers' lower base accuracy plus the fact that they were generally firing at extreme range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
As for orders... Very rarely did I use them, let alone stack them.
As you say, most of the orders are useless, especially Sniper, Mortar and Artillery Support which were never worth anything near their cost. Where I found some of the others very handy, and more than justifying their CP expenditure, is when you had a single strong unit (like Alicia) which you wanted to use for a solo blaze-of-glory run.

Even in the mid-game, Defense Boost + Evade Boost could give a single unit enough extra durability to survive a headlong rush into a defended enemy position where no unboosted unit could get close enough before being taken out by opportunity fire.

In the late game, you could afford to spend a few more CPs in return for some rather game-breaking effects. Alicia + Demolition Boost + Awaken Potential = 5 CPs, but in return you got a near-invincible fast-moving tank killer who could shrug off most opportunity fire, heal herself, traverse incredible distances and backshoot one enemy tank per CP until her movement ran out (which could be a long time, if Double Movement kept triggering).

Come to think of it, Demolition Boost was one of my favourite orders; as well as turning scouts into serious anti-armour units, it was also very handy for taking out a single point target from a distance with a sniper. There was one particular mission where that combination saved me a huge amount of trouble, and quite possibly a few casualties...
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Old 2009-06-21, 13:20   Link #567
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I never used Demo Boost on a Scout. I used it only twice on Shocktroopers as it was... Seems I couldn't see using more CP on a Lancer than on Alicia + Demo Boost. Especially with Audrey as my main Lancer, whenever I don't have to use Largo.
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Old 2009-06-21, 21:16   Link #568
Guppy
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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
I never used Demo Boost on a Scout. I used it only twice on Shocktroopers as it was... Seems I couldn't see using more CP on a Lancer than on Alicia + Demo Boost. Especially with Audrey as my main Lancer, whenever I don't have to use Largo.
You're right, you don't need Demolition Boost on a scout if you have a lancer there (and Audrey is awesome).

The problem I had was that my lancers often couldn't get to where I needed them quickly enough, especially if I had to use cover or take an indirect route to avoid heavy enemy concentrations. I found that lancers didn't fare too well if they had to cross open ground under fire to get in range of their objective; scouts often have the Resist Crossfire potential, and they move fast enough to present a more fleeting target.

On a tight, crowded map with enemy armour all around, then yeah, it's lancers all the way. But on a large, open map, my experience was that being able to convert your light skirmishers into tank-killers on demand for 3CP was quite useful.
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Old 2009-06-21, 22:23   Link #569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guppy View Post
On a tight, crowded map with enemy armour all around, then yeah, it's lancers all the way. But on a large, open map, my experience was that being able to convert your light skirmishers into tank-killers on demand for 3CP was quite useful.
This is where the Kar 5 (g) reigns supreme. The total cost to attack a tank with a regular rifle and demolition boost is 4 CP (3 CP for the order, 1 CP for movement) but with the Kar 5 (g) can destroy virtually any tank for only 3 CP actions, saving a CP.
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Old 2009-06-21, 22:48   Link #570
Guppy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fallschirmjager View Post
This is where the Kar 5 (g) reigns supreme. The total cost to attack a tank with a regular rifle and demolition boost is 4 CP (3 CP for the order, 1 CP for movement) but with the Kar 5 (g) can destroy virtually any tank for only 3 CP actions, saving a CP.
That's true. Where Demolition Boost shines is if you want to rampage around the map, killing several tanks in one turn before the order wears off.

There's also one other issue I had with using the ZM Kar 5(g), even when there was only a single tank to dispose of - you have to get quite close to use it, and after shooting 3 times you won't able to escape very far. A scout using Demolition Boost is more likely to be able to run up to an enemy tank, nail its radiator and still have enough movement left to make it back to cover or friendly lines before the enemy (particularly their snipers, lancers and other tanks) get their turn.
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Old 2009-06-22, 02:30   Link #571
grylsyjaeger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guppy View Post
That's true. Where Demolition Boost shines is if you want to rampage around the map, killing several tanks in one turn before the order wears off.

There's also one other issue I had with using the ZM Kar 5(g), even when there was only a single tank to dispose of - you have to get quite close to use it, and after shooting 3 times you won't able to escape very far. A scout using Demolition Boost is more likely to be able to run up to an enemy tank, nail its radiator and still have enough movement left to make it back to cover or friendly lines before the enemy (particularly their snipers, lancers and other tanks) get their turn.
It does leave the scout exposed but when you intend to finish the map that turn you can leave them where they run out of AP and use another scout to take the objective.

But this is good; exchanging tactics like this. I really hope they do another game with this combat style, I quite enjoy it.
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Old 2009-06-23, 03:02   Link #572
Guppy
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Originally Posted by fallschirmjager View Post
It does leave the scout exposed but when you intend to finish the map that turn you can leave them where they run out of AP and use another scout to take the objective.
Did you ever use Musaad with the ZM Kar 5(g)? I haven't tried it, since I tend to just use Alicia, but it seems to me that Musaad would be particularly well-suited to the weapon if his potential went off - you could kill your target tank on the second CP and still have a healthy chunk of movement left to capture a flag or get to cover with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fallschirmjager View Post
But this is good; exchanging tactics like this. I really hope they do another game with this combat style, I quite enjoy it.
Yeah, same here. I agree with you; whether they make a direct Valkyria sequel or not, it'd be a shame if such a good game engine went to waste.
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Old 2009-06-23, 03:53   Link #573
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Originally Posted by Guppy View Post
Did you ever use Musaad with the ZM Kar 5(g)? I haven't tried it, since I tend to just use Alicia, but it seems to me that Musaad would be particularly well-suited to the weapon if his potential went off - you could kill your target tank on the second CP and still have a healthy chunk of movement left to capture a flag or get to cover with.
Bloodlust or whatever it was? Usually if Alicia didn't have the Kar 5 (g) I gave it to Aika because she'd be the next likely to be sent into the maelstrom with her Runner's High and Resist Crossfire perks.

Musaad tended to always have a S-20R in my games. ;D

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Originally Posted by Guppy View Post
Yeah, same here. I agree with you; whether they make a direct Valkyria sequel or not, it'd be a shame if such a good game engine went to waste.
Well there is a lot of room for improvement given a lot of things in the game are rather low-polygon but the actual style of the game is unbelievable.

I still remember the first time I fired up VC and watched the opening cut scene and realizing most of that footage was taken ingame.
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Old 2009-06-23, 04:45   Link #574
Guppy
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Originally Posted by fallschirmjager View Post
Bloodlust or whatever it was? Usually if Alicia didn't have the Kar 5 (g) I gave it to Aika because she'd be the next likely to be sent into the maelstrom with her Runner's High and Resist Crossfire perks.
I see what you mean - Aika would be the next logical choice, especially since she had pretty high HP.

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Originally Posted by fallschirmjager View Post
Well there is a lot of room for improvement given a lot of things in the game are rather low-polygon but the actual style of the game is unbelievable.
Polygon count can be rectified quite easily, as long as the system is powerful enough. Some of the third-party mods for old PC games are graphically unbelievable compared to the originals, but you do need a higher-spec machine.

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I still remember the first time I fired up VC and watched the opening cut scene and realizing most of that footage was taken ingame.
Agreed; the CANVAS style is incredibly impressive.
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Old 2009-06-23, 05:43   Link #575
jwai
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Just finished Marberry Shore.
Spoiler:


However, I find smoke rounds to be a very interesting new dimension to the game at this stage. Does anyone use them much outside of Marberry Shore?

I'm puzzled as to why I'm still missing Musaad, Knute and Audrey. I know that people appear at random times, but I thought I'd have everyone by now.
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Last edited by jwai; 2009-06-23 at 07:01.
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Old 2009-06-23, 05:53   Link #576
grylsyjaeger
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Originally Posted by jwai View Post
Just finished Marberry Shore. That last scene was really sad *cries* I don't think Kreis will be anywhere near as awesome as Isara.

I'm puzzled as to why I'm still missing Musaad, Knute and Audrey. I know that people appear at random times, but I thought I'd have everyone by now.
Those three are special cases.

Spoiler for Special Requirements:
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Old 2009-06-23, 06:44   Link #577
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Careful with those plot spoilers, jwai - there might still be some people here who haven't completed the game yet.
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However, I find smoke rounds to be a very interesting new dimension to the game at this stage. Does anyone use them much outside of Marberry Shore?
Yes. They're not useful in every mission, but they're very, very handy when there's an enemy unit with heavy firepower that you need to either bypass or sneak up on without getting shot at, or a well-manned defensive position which you need to pick apart one enemy trooper at a time.

The indirect-fire nature of the mortar smoke rounds also means that you can easily loft them over obstacles, or on top of hills or walls.
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Old 2009-06-23, 08:25   Link #578
RWBladewing
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Now that I've beaten the game and gone through Chapter 7 a second time, there's something I've always been curious about regarding that mission:

Spoiler for just in case:


And I really love those smoke rounds. Felt like such an idiot in one particular level when half my guys got mowed down and I realized I still had those. Restarted that one pretty quickly.
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Old 2009-06-23, 08:52   Link #579
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Yes, there is.

Spoiler for mission 7:
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Old 2009-06-23, 08:53   Link #580
spawnofthejudge
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Originally Posted by RWBladewing View Post
Spoiler for just in case:
Spoiler for why not?:
There's always more than one way.

Edit: Ninja'd!
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