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Old 2009-11-26, 18:54   Link #1841
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Arachanox View Post
I'm glad you brought this to my attention, but there is a problem. In a span of an hour, they would have to locate the (six) people, kill them, and then set up the very elaborate series of closed rooms that happened. And all the while they would have to avoid all the other adults; I don't think that is very feasible. Possible? I suppose.
Even after the bodies were found, Rosa still suspected that everything was an elaborate act orchestrated by Kinzo, the servants, and Nanjo. If she was right, then the victims themselves set up the closed room chain. The easiest way would be if someone placed the fake corpse for Kinzo, and then all of the victims went into their own rooms and locked them from the inside. In that case, they were all still alive when the parents started searching the mansion. After the chain was breached by Rudolf, the culprit could have located all the bodies just by following the search party around. It could even have been done by someone who was actually in the search party, if they lagged behind to "examine the scene more closely" or something. The only victim who would have to be located separately is Kinzo (because of the fake corpse), but notice that the key to Kinzo's study wasn't found on Genji's body?

Spoiler for Episode 4 (major):
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Old 2009-11-26, 19:24   Link #1842
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Originally Posted by Metaler View Post
I believe this has something to do with Eva discovering the gold. After all, it's quite clear that something REALLY bad happened which completely screwed the plan. This could also explain Rosa's death, since she was the one who gave the hint to Eva. You could say that she was "punished" for her mistake, and Maria had to be killed, since she was a witness.
If that's the case, then the adults didn't know the answer to the epitaph and the location of the gold, except the masterminds.
The masterminds don't have to know the location of the gold. If the murders were originally about money, then it would be more likely that the mastermind didn't know the location of the gold. That anyone knew where it was could very well have thrown off the mastermind's plan. For example:
Spoiler for Theory:

No real reason the mastermind would have to know the location of the gold (in this Episode).
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Old 2009-11-27, 03:01   Link #1843
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your forgetting in Episode 2
Spoiler for Episode 2:
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Old 2009-11-27, 12:56   Link #1844
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your forgetting in Episode 2
Spoiler for Episode 2:
The culprit(s) for each game are not necessarily the same.
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Old 2009-11-27, 13:31   Link #1845
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I know that's why I said that. Who knows what this proves it could be that: there are different killers for each scenario or that the mastermind already knows the location.
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Old 2009-11-27, 13:46   Link #1846
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Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
The masterminds don't have to know the location of the gold. If the murders were originally about money, then it would be more likely that the mastermind didn't know the location of the gold. That anyone knew where it was could very well have thrown off the mastermind's plan. For example:
Spoiler for Theory:

No real reason the mastermind would have to know the location of the gold (in this Episode).
Going back to this:
Spoiler for EP4:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
I know that's why I said that. Who knows what this proves it could be that: there are different killers for each scenario or that the mastermind already knows the location.
I see. And it does complicate things, since we can't look for over-arching clues between games to pin a single individual.
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Old 2009-11-27, 18:14   Link #1847
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Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
your forgetting in Episode 2
Spoiler for Episode 2:
Spoiler for I remember:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachanox View Post
Going back to this:
Spoiler for EP4:
Spoiler for Context:
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Old 2009-11-27, 18:48   Link #1848
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Spoiler for Meh:
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Old 2009-11-27, 19:24   Link #1849
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Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
Spoiler for Meh:
While it would be difficult to get and forge a gold bar to look like it came from the fortune, that is not the same as impossible. Furthermore, it is possible that funds could temporarily be acquired even by people who are desperate. Don't forget, Kinzo made his fortune by using the gold as collateral for loans and investing those; he didn't spend the gold itself. If the mastermind was one of the siblings, he or she could have taken out a loan. Furthermore, the servants are paid pretty well and don't spend money often...
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Old 2009-11-28, 01:38   Link #1850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
I know that's why I said that. Who knows what this proves it could be that: there are different killers for each scenario or that the mastermind already knows the location.
I believe that the masterminds already know the location of the gold. Sure, like it was said before, the gold planted in EP2 could very well be fake. But in order to forge the gold, the masterminds would have to know the location of the original ingots, since the supposed "fakes" had the One-Winged Eagle in them. The forger probably knew about this detail.
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Old 2009-11-28, 20:07   Link #1851
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Originally Posted by Metaler View Post
I believe that the masterminds already know the location of the gold. Sure, like it was said before, the gold planted in EP2 could very well be fake. But in order to forge the gold, the masterminds would have to know the location of the original ingots, since the supposed "fakes" had the One-Winged Eagle in them. The forger probably knew about this detail.
I disagree. The forger would not need to know where the originals were, because he was forging a bar of gold from the originals which (presumably) no one had seen before. Because none of the people to be fooled had seen the originals, they wouldn't know that it was a fake.

Of course, if this were true then the forger is neither Krauss nor Natsuhi because they (supposedly) have seen one of the originals.

edit: I should mention, I have no personal opinion on whether those gold bars are real or not, mostly because I haven't dealt much with the mysteries of EP2.
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Old 2009-11-28, 22:37   Link #1852
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Biblical allusions in Umineko

Hey all,

Have finished Umineko Episode 3 and I've been lurking on these discussions for a few days now - a lot of the theories and thoughts advocated so far have been quite helpful. I've gone through the entire Episode 1 and 2 threads, but am only halfway through the massive Episode 3 thread here; it's considerably bigger, so I apologize if some of my thoughts have already been articulated in the last 30 pages or so.

Mostly, I wanted to highlight some of the Biblical allusions so far in Umineko - Ryushiki07 has really done his research and the attention to detail really shows when you're familiar with the subject. I would not say any of this is super necessary to understand the mystery, per se, but it certainly increases the appreciation for the work that went in. On with the show:

First off, a note on some of the names:

The Witch Hunt translation team notes that Kyrie, Ange's, and Asumu's names refer to the skills found in the MMORPG Ragnarok Online. The MMO in turn borrows these names from actual Latin phrases prevalent in Catholicism. I'm not Catholic myself but I have some familiarity with the terms. No spoilers here for those who have read the previous episodes, save for one that's revealed in Episode 3.

Asumu is a reference to "Assumptio", literally, "The Assumption", the act by which God takes a believer to Heaven (while still living). As Asumu is deceased, the name fits quite well.

Kyrie is a reference to "Kyrie Eleison", literally "Lord Have Mercy (On Me)". Take that as you will, although Kyrie certainly has had it rough in her love life.
Spoiler for The missing Ushiromiya:


Finally, we have Maria, a reference to the Virgin Mary - who declares boldly in the first chapter of Luke that "I am the Lord's servant, may it be as you said." Again, a fitting name for Maria, who is the most vocal advocate of the Witch. Mary's miracle is the virgin birth of Jesus: eventually the one man who accomplishes the miracle of resurrection, and, as Beatrice notes in love - the man who taught that the one element of all things is love, and from where the modern calendar - "Anno Domini" (A.D., literally "In the Year of Our Lord") derives from. Furthermore, Mary's miracle in orthodox theology is made possible because of her willingness to believe in the message the angel brings her - if she did not believe then she would not have been God's chosen vessel. Understanding this is fairly important in grasping Maria's role throughout the series, I believe.

Another theory from many pages earlier advocated by Nagare:
Spoiler for Episode 3 Painted Numbers:


Is all this really important to the plot? Not really, but it's really interesting that the interpretation exists, and it seems completely intentional. It's incredible, absolute genius - the Biblical allusions are *definitely* not random comments thrown here and there, but have very deep meanings. It's all very Catholic though.
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Old 2009-11-28, 23:09   Link #1853
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Kyrie's name was intentionally spelled the way it is - technically her name should be translated as "Kirie" but I'm sure Ryukishi purposely translated her name like that.
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Old 2009-11-28, 23:11   Link #1854
vendredi
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Kyrie's name was intentionally spelled the way it is - technically her name should be translated as "Kirie" but I'm sure Ryukishi purposely translated her name like that.
Exactly - it's definitely a reference to the Latin phrasing of Kyrie Eleison.
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Old 2009-11-28, 23:46   Link #1855
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There's also a cross on Battler's coat (although that's kind of obvious to point out :P).

Fukuin (the name of the orphanage) also shares kanji with "gospel", and the Endless Magic for (particularly Eva-)Beatrice and making friends with humans for Shkanon have both been kind of portrayed as forbidden fruits that signify the line between human/witch (or perhaps more precisely good witch/evil witch) and furniture/human.

Plus Beatrice and Virgilia are names that resemble those of vital characters from Dante's Divine Comedy, a Christian work where the poet Virgil guides Dante through Mount Purgatory to the top where his beloved Beatrice is waiting.

Hard to guess what any of it means yet, though, but it's very interesting that there's so much Christianity in the story. Gotta wonder if it's simple homage to a culture Ryukishi07 seems to respect a lot or if it's hinting at some deep religious symbolism in the plot.
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Old 2009-11-28, 23:57   Link #1856
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Originally Posted by Arachanox View Post
I disagree. The forger would not need to know where the originals were, because he was forging a bar of gold from the originals which (presumably) no one had seen before. Because none of the people to be fooled had seen the originals, they wouldn't know that it was a fake.

Of course, if this were true then the forger is neither Krauss nor Natsuhi because they (supposedly) have seen one of the originals.
If that's the case, then the forger had to know that at least Krauss had seen the gold, which increases the possibility that the forger is someone from the inside (y'know, someone from Rokkenjima). With this, the servants are the most likely forgers, since they are constantly on the Island, especially Genji.

By the way, was it ever stated how Krauss found that ingot from EP1? Or was it always sitting in that room?

And since we're talking about gold: Take a look at this article. Particularly the 3rd entry

Quote:
There's also a cross on Battler's coat (although that's kind of obvious to point out :P).

Fukuin (the name of the orphanage) also shares kanji with "gospel", and the Endless Magic for (particularly Eva-)Beatrice and making friends with humans for Shkanon have both been kind of portrayed as forbidden fruits that signify the line between human/witch (or perhaps more precisely good witch/evil witch) and furniture/human.

Plus Beatrice and Virgilia are names that resemble those of vital characters from Dante's Divine Comedy, a Christian work where the poet Virgil guides Dante through Mount Purgatory to the top where his beloved Beatrice is waiting.

Hard to guess what any of it means yet, though, but it's very interesting that there's so much Christianity in the story. Gotta wonder if it's simple homage to a culture Ryukishi07 seems to respect a lot or if it's hinting at some deep religious symbolism in the plot.
I think this is a small hint... At least, I always had the feeling that some kind of religious/occult organization is involved in the story.
We already have a "prophet", which is Maria. We have a God/Pope, which is Beatrice. And we have Heaven: The Golden Land. And maybe the Village of Gold from the epitaph is something that resembles a Holy City.
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Old 2009-11-29, 00:06   Link #1857
vendredi
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Originally Posted by the_rogue View Post
Hard to guess what any of it means yet, though, but it's very interesting that there's so much Christianity in the story. Gotta wonder if it's simple homage to a culture Ryukishi07 seems to respect a lot or if it's hinting at some deep religious symbolism in the plot.
I'm pretty sure Ryukishi07 has religious symbolism in mind from day one - take Higurashi, for example - the idea of endless reincarnation, learning from each "life" you live until you can eventually make all the correct choices - that's the classic driving idea behind Buddhism.

In Umineko on the other hand, we still have this element of repetition, but only experienced through meta-Battler. The debate is much more clearly about belief itself, and the power of belief - a much more Christian theme. Another big theme that seems to come up quite a bit, especially in the meta-debates, is trickery and lying, and the possibility of "lazy" beliefs - many times Battler disparages those who "believe" in the witch, saying that they've stopped thinking and deciding for themselves (and in turn is disparaged himself by Ange at the end of episode 3). In a sense, is it a criticism perhaps of the themes behind Christianity? Belief is simply intellectual laziness?

I'm hesitant to apply such a reading without completing the whole thing first - it seems too neat, too simplistic for the mindbending game Ryukishi07 has given us so far, and not nearly nuanced enough.

What's interesting too is the anthropomorphism of objects, such as the Stakes of Purgatory and the Siesta sisters - this sort of thing is also common in Japanese culture, but I have a feeling the roots of it stretch back to Shinto, which is primarily an animistic religion - all objects, inanimate or animate, possess their own souls and the like.


Oh, and interesting catch on the "Fukuin" sharing kanji with "gospel". This is perhaps also related to Maria, but it's also interesting how a notable doctrine in Christianity is having "faith like a child" ("let the little children come unto me" and so on) - and here, we have the Fukuin house who takes in orphans to serve Kinzo (Solomon?).

In any case I feel a lot of it feels rather intentional - there's a lot of references, and many of them spot on. I'm not sure if knowledge of them is entirely necessary, as the average Japanese reader likely isn't familiar with Catholicism, but even so I imagine there might be hints in there for the astute reader. It's quite possible that I might be over-analyzing the religious element but it's still absolutely fascinating nevertheless that the text can support such a reading in the first place.

Last edited by vendredi; 2009-11-29 at 00:18.
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Old 2009-11-29, 00:22   Link #1858
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Originally Posted by vendredi View Post
I'm pretty sure Ryukishi07 has religious symbolism in mind from day one - take Higurashi, for example - the idea of endless reincarnation, learning from each "life" you live until you can eventually make all the correct choices - that's the classic driving idea behind Buddhism.

In Umineko on the other hand, we still have this element of repetition, but only experienced through meta-Battler. The debate is much more clearly about belief itself, and the power of belief - a much more Christian theme. Another big theme that seems to come up quite a bit, especially in the meta-debates, is trickery and lying, and the possibility of "lazy" beliefs - many times Battler disparages those who "believe" in the witch, saying that they've stopped thinking and deciding for themselves (and in turn is disparaged himself by Ange at the end of episode 3). In a sense, is it a criticism perhaps of the themes behind Christianity? Belief is simply intellectual laziness?

I'm hesitant to apply such a reading without completing the whole thing first - it seems too neat, too simplistic for the mindbending game Ryukishi07 has given us so far, and not nearly nuanced enough.

What's interesting too is the anthropomorphism of objects, such as the Stakes of Purgatory and the Siesta sisters - this sort of thing is also common in Japanese culture, but I have a feeling the roots of it stretch back to Shinto, which is primarily an animistic religion - all objects, inanimate or animate, possess their own souls and the like.


Oh, and interesting catch on the "Fukuin" sharing kanji with "gospel". This is perhaps also related to Maria, but it's also interesting how a notable doctrine in Christianity is having "faith like a child" ("let the little children come unto me" and so on) - and here, we have the Fukuin house who takes in orphans to serve Kinzo (Solomon?).

In any case I feel a lot of it feels rather intentional - there's a lot of references, and many of them spot on. I'm not sure if knowledge of them is entirely necessary, as the average Japanese reader likely isn't familiar with Catholicism, but even so I imagine there might be hints in there for the astute reader. It's quite possible that I might be over-analyzing the religious element but it's still absolutely fascinating nevertheless that the text can support such a reading in the first place.
That's why I believe there's some kind of religious group involved in the plot. As I mentioned in my previous post, we have pretty much all elements that consist a religious cult. At least one which resembles Christianity.
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Old 2009-11-29, 00:26   Link #1859
ameskitty
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I'd have to agree with you on that - just how deep it is and what characters are involved and how may be the better question .

Unless you're super-afraid of spoilers (and really, don't be - they're just lyrics ), check out the lyrics to the Chiru opening. You'll find a lot of interesting things.
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Old 2009-11-29, 00:33   Link #1860
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Originally Posted by the_rogue View Post
I'd have to agree with you on that - just how deep it is and what characters are involved and how may be the better question .

Unless you're super-afraid of spoilers (and really, don't be - they're just lyrics ), check out the lyrics to the Chiru opening. You'll find a lot of interesting things.
I'm a little hesitant, since I'm trying to avoid as many spoilers as possible. But I don't think there's anything major on those lyrics, right? I mean, it's the damn opening. xD
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