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Old 2012-09-03, 00:59   Link #961
battle22
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"It's not like Yasu ever GETS DOWN with anyone. No one's putting "yaoi" in your head but you. :P "
You have a point there. But it wanst me who started this, It was the captain!! He said Yaoi First not me!!! XDDDDDDDD
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Old 2012-09-03, 04:24   Link #962
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I'm not sure how Yasu/Lion being female would make this better or worse... or am I misunderstanding you?
It wouldn't. It would just make Kinzo a very twisted, horny old man.

Quote:
Lion pinches both men and women. Yuri?
I was basically thinking of Will, since they clearly have a 'thing' there. Either way, the relationship is cute, regardless of gender.

Quote:
Genji was afraid after Yasu was injured.
Well.... No, I'd better keep my big mouth shut so the discussion doesn't get out of hand again.

But anyway, it's not just the rape part Genji was afraid of. It's also the way Kinzo was treating Kuwadorian Beato.

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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
"It's not like Yasu ever GETS DOWN with anyone. No one's putting "yaoi" in your head but you. :P "
You have a point there. But it wanst me who started this, It was the captain!! He said Yaoi First not me!!! XDDDDDDDD
Do you want to walk the plag mate? Stop blaming the captain!!!

No, seriously, it's my fault. I made a very insensitive comment that doesn't even reflect how I feel about this subject. I was just trying to joke around, obviously didn't see where this was going.....

Lion/Yasu's character is a lovely one by its nature, so I have absolutely no problem accepting it either way. Plus, Umineko is about that person's heart, not the space between their legs.

(Also, if you're that bothered by yaoi/yuri, you should be shifting your attention to Bern and Lambda. XD)

Quote:
I agree with Aura, that it would make more sense thematically if Yasu was male, but this isn't really the place to be discussing this; it's only the manga thread.
Now that you mention the manga, (to finally get back on topic) Lion's depicted very feminine then. In the visual novel I had assumed he/she was a boy before the subject of his/her gender was put forward, but the manga gives a totally different impression.
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Old 2012-09-03, 04:33   Link #963
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(Also, if you're that bothered by yaoi/yuri, you should be shifting your attention to Bern and Lambda. XD)
*cough*, .....Bern X Lambda.....is....cute......
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Old 2012-09-03, 04:34   Link #964
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Yeah. They might both be batshit sadistic bitches, but one thing nobody can deny is that they love each other.
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Old 2012-09-03, 04:34   Link #965
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What the, how did I double post.. >< O.o .... good thing the edit button exists. Anyway I'm sorry I got this topic offtopic. I hope you guys dont think Im a horrible person because I dont like Yaoi. XD Forgive me all
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Old 2012-09-03, 10:11   Link #966
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Yeah. They might both be batshit sadistic bitches, but one thing nobody can deny is that they love each other.
oh, the things bern does with lambda's dismembered body

I prefer yasu being female because it makes more sense for jessica's character to be a rebel to the point of being lesbian.

back to manga I wodner if we will get a manga with the "yasu leaves the island to search for battler arc", I also want some action out of the island beause I hope to see the stakes going on their daily lives.
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Old 2012-09-03, 10:11   Link #967
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So far I've seen lots people saying that if Lion would be male everyone turns gay=it's gross and twisting Lion's character to a horrible degree to make a pretty damsel(especially on fanart). When Requiem came out there were several people who were there for the sake of 'yaoi' but I thought they already dissapeared?
I guess I end always with the opposite side of the fandom because I was sure I was the only one who considered Lion could be female and I was surprised there was someone else... though I'm not much into fanarts. Maybe that's why I'm missing the 'Lion is a girl' side of the fandom...

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Originally Posted by tempteste View Post
Genji was afraid after Yasu was injured.
We aren't told when EXACTLY Genji started becoming afraid but we're told why.
He feared that now that Beato 2 was dead Kinzo would do the same he did when Beato 1 died; think that the child was Beato reincarnated.
So it's very possible Genji began worrying for the child as soon as his/her mother died but... what could he do? He couldn't make the baby magically disappear.
Kinzo would search for him/her and punish whoever was involved in what would be a kidnapping. Sure, maybe involving the police won't be easy but he could always make up a story officially and bribe them privately... or hire private detectives or someone else. It wouldn't be so easy to make the baby disappear and probably the whole situation was so sudden Genji didn't really have the time to think of a plan.
Then the baby is entrusted to Natsuhi and 2/3 days after he/she fall from a cliff, the maid dies, the baby nearly dies and Genji rushes to carry him to Nanjo.

It's a perfect chance to take the baby out of the island and let Kinzo believe the baby is dead. Maybe Genji even came back with ashes saying Nanjo provided to cremate the baby.

Kinzo might doubt it (he knows Genji very well and Nanjo well) or might hope they had lied to him and the baby is alive somehow, but he's a man who's already nursing the pain of losing Beatrice 2 so he might have not realized the trick at first... and, after all, it was a VERY believable trick.
It's much easier to believe the baby died than that it survived and only who've a guilty coscience (Natsuhi) or a strong wish for the baby to be alive (Kinzo) might favour the theory the baby survived.

In short, we can't say the fall was the reason why Genji worried but the fall was the chance that allowed Genji to hide the baby from Kinzo.

Quote:
"There was one matter for which Genji did not trust the master he so respected. That matter was whether Kinzo would be capable of accepting Beatrice's grandchild as his grandchild."
"Genji had served the Kuwadorian Beatrice for many years as well. He was very aware of what she had felt. He knew that she accepted Kinzo's affection and respected him as a father."
"However, her love was not the same as Kinzo's love. Kinzo thought her to be Beatrice reborn, and tried to use her to satisfy the many feelings he had felt for the late Beatrice. Of course, the Kuwadorian Beatrice could not accept those feelings. In the end, she had her chastity stolen by the one she thought of as her only family and respected as a father......"
"She thought he was her father, and he thought she was his wife!"
"Oh, what unmanageable, forbidden love!"
"......I did understand Kinzo-sama's feelings to some degree. Kinzo-sama himself did not decide to treat her as the late Beatrice-sama at the time of her birth."
"He......spoke to me about it a few times when we were drinking. I always thought he was just joking."
"Was he surprised to find that the daughter grew to look more and more like the mother?"
"As the daughter grew, did he suffer from a forbidden emotion he could not suppress?"
"......I thought...
...that he might commit the same mistake again. ......That was my view."
Also Bernkastel suggested there could be a Fragment where Lion was accepted by Natsuhi and yet Kinzo would still commit the same sin... either making Lion's sex irrelevant or the same of Beatrice.

Quote:
"......Exactly. I get the feeling I'll get my butt pinched if I talk about other Fragments, ......but what if there was a Fragment... ...where Lion is accepted... and Kinzo commits the same sin again? Wanna see if we can find one of those? *giggle*giggle*......"
"Who would want to see something like that? ......Is it your job, mixing up the worst possible delusions and possibilities for every part of a person's life and sneering at them?!"
"Unfortunately, that's the sort of demon she is."
"How rude. I'm a witch. *giggle*......"
".........Genji foresaw that worst of all possible futures, and, trying to secure a better future, he intentionally lied about the baby being dead."
"Right. Kinzo was a man so impulsive that he used his own daughter. Genji, who knew Beatrice's feelings and felt sympathy for her, couldn't trust Kinzo so easily."
"Even Genji, Kinzo's most devoted servant?"
"Genji draws a clear line between the professional and the personal. While he served Kinzo faithfully, he also felt that the mistake Kinzo had made with his daughter was not one to be forgiven easily."
"......Probably. And to make sure that Lion wouldn't be found out easily, Genji lied about the kid's age, lowering it by three years."
"Good point. In this world, I'm just entering elementary school in 1976. I was actually supposed to become a 4th year then."
"If your frailness wasn't the reason, ......then Genji must have been careful to disguise the year of your birth. Not only Kinzo, but also Natsuhi...they wouldn't easily forget the baby from 19 years ago. If a suspiciously young servant of that age came to the island, Natsuhi's woman's intuition would definitely have picked up on it."
... and even if Bern's words can be fought saying she was merely be malicious Lion didn't counter that 'in this case the situation would be different' (as he's a male and therefore Kinzo shouldn't/couldn't mistake him for Beato).

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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
What the, how did I double post.. >< O.o .... good thing the edit button exists. Anyway I'm sorry I got this topic offtopic. I hope you guys dont think Im a horrible person because I dont like Yaoi. XD Forgive me all
Why should we? De gustibus non est disputandum!

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Originally Posted by maximilianjenus View Post
oh, the things bern does with lambda's dismembered body

I prefer yasu being female because it makes more sense for jessica's character to be a rebel to the point of being lesbian.

back to manga I wodner if we will get a manga with the "yasu leaves the island to search for battler arc", I also want some action out of the island beause I hope to see the stakes going on their daily lives.
I would love to see it but I would like for Ryukishi to write it... otherwise it'll felt like a fanfic...
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Old 2012-09-03, 10:41   Link #968
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Back on the subject of side stories, it was real easy for Higurashi to have all these extra arcs, but what exactly would a true side story for Umineko be? Will it be just another Forgery, like Umineko Purple? What more can be seen from the outside world than what we already see in Alliance and Dawn?

Although, I would like to see exactly what the police saw when they arrived Oct. 6th. But then again, that spoils a lot of EP6 and EP7.
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Old 2012-09-03, 11:01   Link #969
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Back on the subject of side stories, it was real easy for Higurashi to have all these extra arcs, but what exactly would a true side story for Umineko be? Will it be just another Forgery, like Umineko Purple? What more can be seen from the outside world than what we already see in Alliance and Dawn?

Although, I would like to see exactly what the police saw when they arrived Oct. 6th. But then again, that spoils a lot of EP6 and EP7.
I'd like to know Battler's side of those 6 years. I mean, all he says is

Quote:
"Yep. ......A lot has happened to me these six years, and to be honest, I've forgotten almost everything about Rokkenjima."
... and it'll be nice to know if he really forgot writing to Shannon or something happened to his letter to her.
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Old 2012-09-03, 12:19   Link #970
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Back on the subject of side stories, it was real easy for Higurashi to have all these extra arcs, but what exactly would a true side story for Umineko be? Will it be just another Forgery, like Umineko Purple? What more can be seen from the outside world than what we already see in Alliance and Dawn?
I'm really not sure. Umineko has a bad compatibility with side-stories by it's nature, Tsubasa and Hane are there to prove that.

But I'd really like to see the detailed scenario Ryukishi says he's thought of about the back story of Bern and Lambda. I mean, we all link it to Higurashi, but just by hearing them talk about it makes me feel like we're missing some big part of the story so we can't really look at the whole picture.

Other than that, my opinion about manga-arcs is one. Don't make them.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
... and it'll be nice to know if he really forgot writing to Shannon or something happened to his letter to her.
There sort of is a sort of an answer for this one. Ryukishi has "explicitly" said in his interview that it's all about who you want to be the bad guy. For example, did Battler forget to write to her, or perhaps George didn't give the letter to her out of jealousy (which he totally did, that was my very first thought when reading that scene). To use Ryukishi's words: it depends for whom you have love.
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Old 2012-09-03, 13:56   Link #971
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I'm really not sure. Umineko has a bad compatibility with side-stories by it's nature, Tsubasa and Hane are there to prove that.
Well, it's more because he made complete Au instead than sidestories. I mean, it's cute how the cousins gets presents for the parents but as they never met in those 6 years this can only happen in a complete alterniverse. Same with the 'Fin' story where either Jessica, Battler and Shannon are kids or there's no chance it happens... and exept few cases they don't really add much to the Umineko universe but seem merely to be written for fun purpose.

Though I've to say I enjoyed some sidestories, so I don't have such a bad opinion on them.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
There sort of is a sort of an answer for this one. Ryukishi has "explicitly" said in his interview that it's all about who you want to be the bad guy. For example, did Battler forget to write to her, or perhaps George didn't give the letter to her out of jealousy (which he totally did, that was my very first thought when reading that scene). To use Ryukishi's words: it depends for whom you have love.
Which doesn't really say much because if it's up to the reader it means there's no canon answer.
Also I never suspected George because he opened the envelope right in front of Shannon and the others so it would be troublesome for him to hide one of the letters. He doesn't look as skilled as Shannon in tricks.
Though I didn't suspect Battler either.
My feeling was that the letter got removed before they were all placed in the envelope... but that's a discussion for the theories section.
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Old 2012-09-04, 09:23   Link #972
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I'm really not sure. Umineko has a bad compatibility with side-stories by it's nature, Tsubasa and Hane are there to prove that.
Oh, that's not true. Your options are basically "more Rokkenjima forgeries" and "more background information".

For example, I would really enjoy a side arc about Kyries day to day life in 1980, about what pushed her to the point of being prepared to murder Asumu, and how she'd reacted to news of her death. We could see her at work with Rudolf in such an awkward situation, and also maybe a bit of how she interacted with the other Sumadera (even though she was disowned and all that), or even her thoughts of how she would raise a child were she ever so blessed. There's a lot of room.

We could get ... a story about Battler's life with his grandparents during those six years. Or maybe a heretofore unmentioned best friend of Jessica or Battler (who seem to have led active social lives) who also sought out the truth about that day.

I've also always wanted some bit of narrative about the siblings lives as siblings. For example, we're told Rosa was often bullied, and sometimes outright betrayed by her siblings, but we never see any of that. A cute, slightly unsettling side story about little Rosa ... let's say it's from Rosa's perspective, Eva and Krauss are using her to get Rudolf in trouble for an 'indiscretion', but Rudolf uses her to make a situation that gets her in trouble and thus the attention off of him. We'd even get a bit of stuff on Kinzo's ever unnamed wife, maybe.

You might just say that nothing like that is entirely relevant to the main story Umineko wanted to tell, but ... there's a lot of room, i think.
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Old 2012-09-04, 12:59   Link #973
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Oh, that's not true. Your options are basically "more Rokkenjima forgeries" and "more background information".

For example, I would really enjoy a side arc about Kyries day to day life in 1980, about what pushed her to the point of being prepared to murder Asumu, and how she'd reacted to news of her death. We could see her at work with Rudolf in such an awkward situation, and also maybe a bit of how she interacted with the other Sumadera (even though she was disowned and all that), or even her thoughts of how she would raise a child were she ever so blessed. There's a lot of room.

We could get ... a story about Battler's life with his grandparents during those six years. Or maybe a heretofore unmentioned best friend of Jessica or Battler (who seem to have led active social lives) who also sought out the truth about that day.

I've also always wanted some bit of narrative about the siblings lives as siblings. For example, we're told Rosa was often bullied, and sometimes outright betrayed by her siblings, but we never see any of that. A cute, slightly unsettling side story about little Rosa ... let's say it's from Rosa's perspective, Eva and Krauss are using her to get Rudolf in trouble for an 'indiscretion', but Rudolf uses her to make a situation that gets her in trouble and thus the attention off of him. We'd even get a bit of stuff on Kinzo's ever unnamed wife, maybe.

You might just say that nothing like that is entirely relevant to the main story Umineko wanted to tell, but ... there's a lot of room, i think.
I would also like to see a story about the police's investigation on the Rokkenjima tragedy in which we would be given the informations they had in Prime.
Something about Ikuko prior meeting Tohya and how her life with Tohya was would be nice as well.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-09-04 at 13:56.
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Old 2012-09-04, 13:47   Link #974
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I would like a side story on How Kinzo Met Genji and Kumasawa, I'm really intrested in Kumasawa, There is just something hidden about her
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Old 2012-09-04, 13:57   Link #975
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I would like a side story on How Kinzo Met Genji and Kumasawa, I'm really intrested in Kumasawa, There is just something hidden about her
*nods* She's interesting.

Can I also add a story dealing in the relationship between Battler and Lion?
I'm sort of curious as Lion implied they were close/good friend/compatible spirits/whatever.
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Old 2012-09-04, 14:53   Link #976
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The manga is out on the 20th Nov in the UK and I can't wait to get my hands on it :3
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Old 2012-09-04, 17:58   Link #977
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Oh, that's not true. Your options are basically "more Rokkenjima forgeries" and "more background information".

For example, I would really enjoy a side arc about Kyries day to day life in 1980, about what pushed her to the point of being prepared to murder Asumu, and how she'd reacted to news of her death. We could see her at work with Rudolf in such an awkward situation, and also maybe a bit of how she interacted with the other Sumadera (even though she was disowned and all that), or even her thoughts of how she would raise a child were she ever so blessed. There's a lot of room.

We could get ... a story about Battler's life with his grandparents during those six years. Or maybe a heretofore unmentioned best friend of Jessica or Battler (who seem to have led active social lives) who also sought out the truth about that day.

I've also always wanted some bit of narrative about the siblings lives as siblings. For example, we're told Rosa was often bullied, and sometimes outright betrayed by her siblings, but we never see any of that. A cute, slightly unsettling side story about little Rosa ... let's say it's from Rosa's perspective, Eva and Krauss are using her to get Rudolf in trouble for an 'indiscretion', but Rudolf uses her to make a situation that gets her in trouble and thus the attention off of him. We'd even get a bit of stuff on Kinzo's ever unnamed wife, maybe.

You might just say that nothing like that is entirely relevant to the main story Umineko wanted to tell, but ... there's a lot of room, i think.
Oh well.... If you put it this way, then yeah, they do have a lot of material to make interesting side stories. Maybe the problem is that it's me who doesn't have a good compatibility with them... Yeah... I don't like to read something that doesn't have any impact on the main story, but I guess if they really had to make them, they could make use of all those ideas to turn it into something worth reading.

It's a pity that they usually don't (see Higurashi Kira ).

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I would like a side story on How Kinzo Met Genji and Kumasawa, I'm really intrested in Kumasawa, There is just something hidden about her
I think Genji is far more interesting than Kumasawa. I mean, he's the bearer of all the main family's secrets. He knows everything about everything, he is aware of the massacre that is going to befall Rokenjima, he also knows about Yasu's personality shit, sho what's in this man's thoughts? I was always very curious because I can't accept a person could be like a robot (as Genji appears), so I assume he must have a 'heart'. And since that's an essential thematic part of Umineko, I think a peek at the 'heart' of one of the key players would be really interesting indeed.

Then again he's not an undaraged schoolgirl that has the hips for a mini skirt, so I don't think the publishing comany will share this opinion....
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Old 2012-09-04, 22:34   Link #978
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Quote:
I think Genji is far more interesting than Kumasawa. I mean, he's the bearer of all the main family's secrets. He knows everything about everything, he is aware of the massacre that is going to befall Rokenjima, he also knows about Yasu's personality shit, sho what's in this man's thoughts?
You know all that is true about Kumasawa too, right?

...Also, why the hell is Kumasawa treated as a Beatrice in the fantasy narrative? That should've been MAJORLY important.
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Old 2012-09-05, 01:41   Link #979
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I agree with Aura, At first I thought she was Bice Castiglioni, BUt that would be ilogical and won't make any sense. Kumasawa as well as Genji were Always there for Kinzo and for the family and This two Didn't get any backstory at all, We don't know who they are.
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Old 2012-09-05, 08:48   Link #980
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...Also, why the hell is Kumasawa treated as a Beatrice in the fantasy narrative? That should've been MAJORLY important.
I assumed that Kumasawa being the former Beatrice that passed down her teachings to Beato was just a metaphor for her being Yasu's mentor during her days as a servant.
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