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Old 2008-07-24, 12:23   Link #61
D404
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
Zerox, I'm sorry but I'm gunna have to say no to WD for now. I didn't get enough feedback for or against the idea so I cannot hop on a series that has I believe it is 4 groups subbing it. That is more than enough versions for at least one to be good enough, right?
You might be surprised...
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Old 2008-07-24, 13:17   Link #62
getfresh
done
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Well after all is said and done and if ppl are still that displeased they can come see me. But with no one saying anything really my hands are tied.
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Old 2008-07-26, 19:55   Link #63
Nicholi
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People (maybe just me) are tired of "teaching" (see holding their hand and doing everything for them) those who can't RTFM. Thus most likely why all you get is the backend of all criticisms. Though alot of people just like being mean too .

Seriously...no one wants to help someone who can't help themselves. You can either start learning, or continue believing that all negative criticism is lies and hole yourself up by never talking to another competent encoder ever. Your choice.

P.S. I also don't mind small questions or explanations on what "X" is. But when I get asked "How do I X", which may be a rather complex and lengthy process, I only feel like telling the person to GTFO for not doing any homework on their own. Seriously there is no sympathy for you, and there never will be.

Maybe also just the attitude you bring when asking your questions as well...the key in learning something from someone who actually knows what you want to know. Don't be "King of encoding back in the day and used mpeg3", this information is usually not going to help you in the long run.
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Old 2008-07-26, 20:53   Link #64
jfs
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I'm with Nicholi: You can't teach someone who isn't interested in learning the process in full. There's this whole "learning to learn" thing too, crawl before you walk etc.

What I think might help making new people learn:

- Tell your own story, where you started, what you did back then, who you learned from or what resources you used, how you improved yourself, how you make sure you don't fall behind.

- Provide annotated examples, both good and bad ones. Show a bad example and explain what it does wrong. Show a good example and explain what makes it different from the bad one, what it does right. Show examples of things that are a question of personal taste.

- If you take an apprentice, give them homework. Make sure they learn to how their tools work, not just how to work them. Grade them.


My opinion is that people are getting too impatient. They expect to be able to do everything quickly, learn it quickly without putting in any real effort. Too few people today really want to put in several hours a day to learn something for a hobby. It may sound cliché, but be sure new people know that fansubbing isn't something you spend just a few hours a week on but sometimes might actually need to (at least mentally) spend every wake minute on.


Have I turned bitter already? :s
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Old 2008-07-30, 02:59   Link #65
getfresh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfs View Post
I'm with Nicholi: You can't teach someone who isn't interested in learning the process in full. There's this whole "learning to learn" thing too, crawl before you walk etc.

What I think might help making new people learn:

- Tell your own story, where you started, what you did back then, who you learned from or what resources you used, how you improved yourself, how you make sure you don't fall behind.

- Provide annotated examples, both good and bad ones. Show a bad example and explain what it does wrong. Show a good example and explain what makes it different from the bad one, what it does right. Show examples of things that are a question of personal taste.

- If you take an apprentice, give them homework. Make sure they learn to how their tools work, not just how to work them. Grade them.


My opinion is that people are getting too impatient. They expect to be able to do everything quickly, learn it quickly without putting in any real effort. Too few people today really want to put in several hours a day to learn something for a hobby. It may sound cliché, but be sure new people know that fansubbing isn't something you spend just a few hours a week on but sometimes might actually need to (at least mentally) spend every wake minute on.


Have I turned bitter already? :s
I have been answering a lot of questions on irc, and I have told ppl over and over, it is not an easy process. In the end they need to sub an epi and either go on or quit. Thats what it comes down to.

Not to sound epenis, but those with 100+ epis under their belts are proven subbers, ppl who have withstood the storm and walked into the sun.
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Old 2008-07-30, 09:52   Link #66
Quarkboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
I have been answering a lot of questions on irc, and I have told ppl over and over, it is not an easy process. In the end they need to sub an epi and either go on or quit. Thats what it comes down to.

Not to sound epenis, but those with 100+ epis under their belts are proven subbers, ppl who have withstood the storm and walked into the sun.
You know, it's not an easy process, but if you take out a lot of the more technical parts and settle a little bit when it comes to fancy things, it's not that bad.

I was thinking about this before, and I think that someone should define "profiles" for fansubbing, just like h.264 has profiles. Basic, Main, and High profile fansubbing.

We could split it up into timing, typesetting, and encoding subsections (qc, editing and translation is the same for all profiles since I think it's fundamental)

Keep in mind everything is optional, as long as you use one of the techniques from a category, your fansub is bumped into that profile.

For timing (all things are cumulative)

Basic: No fine-timing, line linking, or other timing tweaks.
Main: Fine timing to prevent scene bleeds, flashes, line linking.
High: Fine timing to prevent reverse scene bleeds, on-screen signs are frame timed exactly, delay timing i.e. Lunar-style

For typesetting:

Basic: Plain, readable font. On screen text super-titled or placed nearby the original text. No 3-liners. Songs are subtitled, with romanji lyrics (no karaoke effects).
Main: Font colors are used to indicate on-off screen or character. Fansubber credits integrated with show credits (either op or ed). Karaoke is styled using .ass effects. On screen text is styled to match the original text and its movement/fade in, out (using .ass).
High: Karaoke effects using programs other than .ass effects (e.g. After Effects). On screen text subbed using overlays, motion tracking, importation of graphical elements. Styled fansub group logo that matches the show that uses effects other than .ass, and/or an english logo created by the fansub group. Animated subtitles for special attacks, etc...

For encoding:

Basic: Xvid in avi, virtualdub or equivalent. Simple denoise/sharpen filters using avisynth or vdub plugins. Progressive, constant frame rate raws.
Main: More complex raw source such as DVD, VFR, mp4. Use of automatic IVTC filters, powerful denoise/sharpen filters (limitedsharpen, etc). x264 encoding into mp4 or mkv containers. Softsubs, embedded fonts. huffy overlays, huffy pre-encode, variable frame rate (from VFR source or fake VFR source, e.g. 120 fps)
High: Yatta or other manual IVTC tools. Bad frame replacement in avisynth. Extreme filtering such as jitter correction, global pan correction, heavy grain removal, grain generation, film damage repair, variable frame rate creation from hybrid source. VHS warp correction.

If I were setting up a "school" for fansubbing, I'd make sure people could do the "Basic" profile first. That way you can produce an acceptable product and can work up to Main and High from there.
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Old 2008-07-30, 11:35   Link #67
edogawaconan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
(qc, editing and translation is the same for all profiles since I think it's fundamental)
actually, there's this cute graph



taken from nnl's site

around the center (up to left), it's more to personal preference though
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Old 2008-07-30, 12:54   Link #68
getfresh
done
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edogawaconan View Post
actually, there's this cute graph



taken from nnl's site

around the center (up to left), it's more to personal preference though
Thats translation based only though. Quark is talking about the whole thing. And that graph isn't very detailed.



Also, I have release the first 2 script archives for Mr. Ajikko epis 1-2 as well as all fonts used up to episode 2.

I am only releasing these via irc because I feel if I BT them there will be issues of ppl confusing them for episodes and having fits when they try to play them.

I will update the fonts archive for shows each time new fonts are used for the show.

In the ajikko script archives are avs scripts. These are old avs's not the ones used for the current version which used a different raw source. But since ppl have been asking to see avs's as well I figured there is no harm in including them.



Macross Fufonfia scripts 1-3 and fonts added as well. Also I added the XLS files I used to create some of the effects and the karaokes for ajikko. I know Lua is much better, but for those who want to physically see how karaoke is done they pretty much show you the break down.


a note on the fonts files. I generally do not add all fonts used, like windows system fonts etc.. Also I sometimes know my encoder has a font and just don't add it and may forget later. If such a font is missing and needed please feel free to mention it in the channel or pm me here.

Last edited by getfresh; 2008-07-30 at 13:19.
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Old 2008-07-31, 01:39   Link #69
Nicholi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
You know, it's not an easy process, but if you take out a lot of the more technical parts and settle a little bit when it comes to fancy things, it's not that bad.

I was thinking about this before, and I think that someone should define "profiles" for fansubbing, just like h.264 has profiles. Basic, Main, and High profile fansubbing.

We could split it up into timing, typesetting, and encoding subsections (qc, editing and translation is the same for all profiles since I think it's fundamental)

Keep in mind everything is optional, as long as you use one of the techniques from a category, your fansub is bumped into that profile.

...

If I were setting up a "school" for fansubbing, I'd make sure people could do the "Basic" profile first. That way you can produce an acceptable product and can work up to Main and High from there.
Great idea for teaching the vast sea of nubs. Though I think it would be better simply as a learning structure, rather than labeling releases under those profiles. The tl/timing/typesetting/encoding profiles could all be at different levels in a release. Actually it is more than likely that they definitely will be, as the sophistication to each job isn't equivalent. But as a learning tool it would be phenomenal help to someone that simply needs to know what the very basics are to start out. From there they can learn what parts can be optimized and improved to increase the overall quality of their work. It would be very simple to outline the whole thing, the basics and how each job progresses. But finding a conducive way to teach each level/component/skill... lol that's the difficult part.

Has no one already done this for some fansub information/knowledge site? Lawl? It seems so obvious :3.
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Old 2008-07-31, 02:29   Link #70
getfresh
done
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholi View Post
Great idea for teaching the vast sea of nubs. Though I think it would be better simply as a learning structure, rather than labeling releases under those profiles. The tl/timing/typesetting/encoding profiles could all be at different levels in a release. Actually it is more than likely that they definitely will be, as the sophistication to each job isn't equivalent. But as a learning tool it would be phenomenal help to someone that simply needs to know what the very basics are to start out. From there they can learn what parts can be optimized and improved to increase the overall quality of their work. It would be very simple to outline the whole thing, the basics and how each job progresses. But finding a conducive way to teach each level/component/skill... lol that's the difficult part.

Has no one already done this for some fansub information/knowledge site? Lawl? It seems so obvious :3.
how about instead making a chart like they have in games for upgrades. Since most all tasks have a base level required to be considered the task at all, after which everything else is additional tweaking. And the tweaking can branch off in diff directions as it needs to.

i.e.


**************************.-> timed the classic way[(long durations, lead-ins, lead-outs,
**************************| starting times of 2 diff ppls lines at the same time when
**************************| spoken with in close proximity to each other(linear time wise)]
Rough time->Continuous Events-:
**************************|*********************** **.->Alpha Timing
**************************`->Debleeding->Scene timing-:->Static Full Line timing
************************************************** **`->New line on pause


Or whatever. Sorry for the crappy example, it is 3:30am and I'm not very clear headed atm. ;D
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Old 2008-07-31, 05:19   Link #71
Quarkboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
how about instead making a chart like they have in games for upgrades. Since most all tasks have a base level required to be considered the task at all, after which everything else is additional tweaking. And the tweaking can branch off in diff directions as it needs to.

i.e.


**************************.-> timed the classic way[(long durations, lead-ins, lead-outs,
**************************| starting times of 2 diff ppls lines at the same time when
**************************| spoken with in close proximity to each other(linear time wise)]
Rough time->Continuous Events-:
**************************|*********************** **.->Alpha Timing
**************************`->Debleeding->Scene timing-:->Static Full Line timing
************************************************** **`->New line on pause


Or whatever. Sorry for the crappy example, it is 3:30am and I'm not very clear headed atm. ;D
Wasn't there already an entire fansubbing skill tree developed in a thread about a year ago which was about the semi-fictional fansubbing MMORPG?
The idea back then was someone could write a MMORPG whose basic goal was fansubbing, and then we could convert all of those masses of hours people waste grinding away for levels and convert them into masses of hours people spend timing or typesetting. A lot of people think that fansubbing is really just one big game, so why not make it the truth?
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Old 2008-07-31, 06:01   Link #72
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lol who was that again
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Old 2008-07-31, 08:18   Link #73
Nicholi
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
how about instead making a chart like they have in games for upgrades. Since most all tasks have a base level required to be considered the task at all, after which everything else is additional tweaking. And the tweaking can branch off in diff directions as it needs to.

i.e.


**************************.-> timed the classic way[(long durations, lead-ins, lead-outs,
**************************| starting times of 2 diff ppls lines at the same time when
**************************| spoken with in close proximity to each other(linear time wise)]
Rough time->Continuous Events-:
**************************|*********************** **.->Alpha Timing
**************************`->Debleeding->Scene timing-:->Static Full Line timing
************************************************** **`->New line on pause


Or whatever. Sorry for the crappy example, it is 3:30am and I'm not very clear headed atm. ;D
Lol well something like that, but timing examples get lost on me because I don't know all the nuances. Using a direct level/upgrade scheme might not be the greatest. Because that might give the idea each level/upgrade is directly dependent on the other, which is probably not true in all cases. But lol yes basically like a game, once you master all the skills you become a pokemon master (and mebbe even invent new madness to make people suffer trying to catch up, lol).

I remember that fansubbing MMORPG thread, it was so boring I couldn't follow it. Figures...it was koda :v.
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Old 2008-07-31, 10:43   Link #74
Schneizel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholi View Post
Lol well something like that, but timing examples get lost on me because I don't know all the nuances. Using a direct level/upgrade scheme might not be the greatest. Because that might give the idea each level/upgrade is directly dependent on the other, which is probably not true in all cases. But lol yes basically like a game, once you master all the skills you become a pokemon master (and mebbe even invent new madness to make people suffer trying to catch up, lol).

I remember that fansubbing MMORPG thread, it was so boring I couldn't follow it. Figures...it was koda :v.
:'( y u do dis 2 me nicholi ;A;
i gib u autovoice and everythin ;A;

I don't even have that post anymore because I forgot to renew the account that domain was on, lolol.
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Old 2008-07-31, 10:52   Link #75
getfresh
done
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholi View Post
Lol well something like that, but timing examples get lost on me because I don't know all the nuances. Using a direct level/upgrade scheme might not be the greatest. Because that might give the idea each level/upgrade is directly dependent on the other, which is probably not true in all cases. But lol yes basically like a game, once you master all the skills you become a pokemon master (and mebbe even invent new madness to make people suffer trying to catch up, lol).

I remember that fansubbing MMORPG thread, it was so boring I couldn't follow it. Figures...it was koda :v.
I wasn't around last year... I was still in semi retirement. Anyways, with all our ideas we should perhaps get working with the fansubbers.org ppl to archive all this stuff. It'd be nice to have one place for researching instead of "Oh yeah, I remember this place "link" that had it." It is sorta a jumble like that and that is something that has plagued the "learning" side of fansubs for years.

I talked to Aya a bit about updating to svn for script archiving on fsubbers, but it could be used for the information management side of subbing too. Like having a section for "guides" where the guides can be compared and all are available instead of just a rehashed guide combining many diff docs..
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Old 2008-08-01, 13:15   Link #76
Nicholi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneizel View Post
:'( y u do dis 2 me nicholi ;A;
i gib u autovoice and everythin ;A;

I don't even have that post anymore because I forgot to renew the account that domain was on, lolol.
Ohnoes ;-;

Schneizel-denka! Here, let me change Canon-kun into this french maid outfit. Is everything FABULOUS now?
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Old 2008-08-08, 04:43   Link #77
getfresh
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As many may know if they have been reading the "otakon panel" thing, I will be at otakon. If you would like to discuss possible ideas for improving FLF's method, have additions, or help to offer towards creating the database and working with fansubbers.org, etc... I should be rather easy to find. Either find me at the panel or ask around for a contact to the fansubber suite tofu is hosting. There should be quite a few ppl so it shouldn't be difficult ;D
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Old 2008-09-03, 22:43   Link #78
getfresh
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Awhile back I began playing with the idea of creating a SVN repository that would function like scriptclub did before. I went over this idea with the fansubber.org people and found out that they did not have the software support needed to run SVN on their site or something to that affect. So I decided to get it going on my groups site instead.

We are currently working on getting it set up and would like input on how it should work by people who are interested in contributing to this project. The project is meant to create a database of past fansub scripts by whichever groups or persons willing to help. Access will only be granted to people who are willing to share scripts. Only site admins and the person who uploaded a script will have mod rights to scripts. The admins will only have access for the purpose of moving or deleting strays to keep the SVN clean. Everyone else will have read rights to scripts not added through their account. While the main section will not be public anyone who wishes for their scripts to be public can request that be done. I have other ideas about the structure but I wish to hear some feedback on it before I get really deep into it.

Please use the SVN Project Board in the fansubbing section of FLFs forums to make suggestions

http://freelancefansubs.org/

peace,
getfresh
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Old 2008-09-04, 04:36   Link #79
martino
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"Scripts?" You mean... translation/timed/edited/typesetted scripts, or what exactly?
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Old 2008-09-04, 05:39   Link #80
getfresh
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as many versions as possible. Since it is SVN users can view the different versions. I will most only have final versions for a lot of what I will upload since in the past I would delete old versions up to final. But I am going to make it habit to not do this anymore. The basic idea is to make available scripts used in actual fansubs so people can look through them for reference. Maybe one groups way of doing things has some points your group could benefit from. Also I hope to add a tracking feature to take into account common terms or styles of translation. As the database becomes more diverse I hope to be able to show comparisons between scripts from the same show but by different groups.
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