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Old 2008-07-17, 15:47   Link #41
D404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverado View Post
[...] as I understand the situation fansubbers seem to be a more localized, homogenous group while scanlators have usually members from at least three different nations, which provides one crucial difference: time zones. it's simply not possible for everyone to come online at the same time. [...]
I cannot name a single group that dosent have members from around the world in many various timezones... in fact, some use timezones to their advantage (e.g. eclipse). :F

IMO, ROME seems too.. uh.. how should i put it... industrialized? (i am no master of the english language, as many know ;p). Topics and IRC = task management while keeping it .. uh.. "human", and somewhat interesting and fun. It's been well established that IRC is central to fansubbing, for it is the interaction and "chatting" (as well as trolling) that make it enjoyable, we may as well use something right on IRC for keeping track of tasks, rather than a whole separate thing like ROME.

Ecxuse me if this makes little sense, i may possibly be high right now.
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Old 2008-07-17, 15:51   Link #42
[darkfire]
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Instead of Replacing IRC, why can't the app compliment it. For instance, most groups will have an staff IRC channel regardless. They usually have some sort of syntax for creating task in the topic. Why not have the app be ablie to change that IRC topic and for those that refuse to use it.

Also how about a bot that runs in the channel. You can push status updates to the bot. Which then updates the site. It can be done straight to through the site as well. You have to think about in the way of a fansubber. What do fansubbers need what do, they don't need.

Generally everything that site deos can be handled through irc with notices and memoserves topics and general chats. The site should compliment that as a frontend to the irc room say for mobile or quick use. Also why not have a way for the leechers to get in on the game. Public Progress updates. Since you are running a centralized system why not make a way for leechers to follow groups or shows get updates on releases an rss feed for torrents etc, etc...

Fansubbing is mostly community driven. The site the way its layed out leaves out most of that community aspect. It is a start though.
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Old 2008-07-17, 16:41   Link #43
silverado
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Ok, let me see it through the eyes of a fansuber. maybe you can help me:

1. How do you inform your members about a new task, like that he can time the new anime episode, if your members lives +8h apart from you?

2. How do you inform your members about changes, mistakes and missing sentences made in a translation, if your translato is offline?

3. Where do you post your translations for proofreading and how do you edit it?

4. What do you do if someone can't use irc?
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Old 2008-07-17, 16:47   Link #44
martino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverado View Post
1. How do you inform your members about a new task, like that he can time the new anime episode, if your members lives +8h apart from you?
Channel topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverado View Post
2. How do you say inform your members about changes, mistakes and missing sentences made in a translation, if your translato is offline?
On the script, channel topic if it's short.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverado View Post
3. Where do you post your translations for proofreading and how do you edit it?
FTP and a text editor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverado View Post
4. What do you do if someone can't use irc?
You tell them they fail and don't fansub with them.

Rocket science! Nyaa~
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Old 2008-07-17, 16:53   Link #45
getfresh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverado View Post
fansubbing is actually quite similiar to scanlation. 99% of the scanlation groups still squeezes status updates in irc topics, but it's not really the way it should be continued. as I understand the situation fansubbers seem to be a more localized, homogenous group while scanlators have usually members from at least three different nations, which provides one crucial difference: time zones. it's simply not possible for everyone to come online at the same time. the timeframe is quite small. with rome you have a very flexible to do list and scheduling feature, that allows you to work when you want and where you want without the "internet lagg" problem.

edit: no, squeezing a "Bleach-183-T100%" into a one-line-topic is not what i understand under task managemet.
Man, you really don't know much about fansubbing do you? Groups I have worked in and presently work in have staff spread over 10+ time zones. Alot of times we will have a translator living in Japan, editors in Europe, timer on the west coast of the US, typesetter on the east coast, maybe someone on the border of eastern Euro, someone in the middle east.

The fact is we have developed our systems through trial and error over many, many years. Pretty much all of us know how to set up a project chan topic to be extremely effective i.e.

#Anime
Topic: 01:QC Encode(Encoders name), 02:Timing(Timers name), 03:Raw(airing date)

and so on.

This app is suppose to be for whole group management. Anyone who is even ready for true group managing does not need their hand held like this. You should focus on adding to our systems not trying to replace them. Though this is just my opinion, I feel there is NO WAY your app can be better than our systems. Your app was developed maybe over 2 years or something, while just knowing a few names here you'd know quite a few of people here have over 6 years subbing experience. I figure those people, with that much time invested would know what they want for management by now.

Reinventing the wheel is unnecessary, but adding rims is constructive.
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Old 2008-07-17, 16:55   Link #46
silverado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martino View Post
Channel topic.

On the script, channel topic if it's short.

FTP and a text editor.

You tell them they fail and don't fansub with them.

Rocket science! Nyaa~
1. topics are too short
2. useless
3. if it's plain text then it's useless, even a bulletin board is better
4. needs MSN

Yeah, rocket science is pretty much useless.

I understand that you've just coped with the way you are doing right now by forcing yourself on irc. I mean 6 years ago there weren't many good developed web based project management softwares on the web, so you're basically just saying that you've never used that kind of software before or that you don't see a real benefit in it. I can say the same about irc based task management. As soon as you add 10 different issues to the topic, it's quite a hassle to get any real information out of it. The only way to get your status is to wait for a member to be online. If, and that's the important difference in our premise, if a group member can't spend the whole time on your irc channel, the whole network and your scripts become pretty much useless. I'm not criticizing and say that it's bad to use irc. No, it's an important tool to stay in contact with each other. But there are more efficient and easier ways to assign new tasks.

Last edited by silverado; 2008-07-17 at 17:07.
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Old 2008-07-17, 17:14   Link #47
[darkfire]
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1. How do you inform your members about a new task, like that he can time the new anime episode, if your members lives +8h apart from you?
I badger people to badger the member. Wake up at odd hours and badger then myself. (Memoservs, Gtalk, Cellphone if that has been given) Communication and a sense of responsibility is key to a great fansubber

2. How do you inform your members about changes, mistakes and missing sentences made in a translation, if your translato[r] is offline?
I badger people to badger the member. Wake up at odd hours and badger then myself. (Memoservs, Gtalk, Cellphone if that has been given) Communication and a sense of responsibility is key to a great fansubber

3. Where do you post your translations for proofreading and how do you edit it?
On the ftp, with a tag on the topic and a memoserv to the editor. Group editing is discouraged unless they are english majors (ego's run high)

4. What do you do if someone can't use irc? If they can't use irc. Are they really a fansubber... (email.. but really can't use irc)
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Old 2008-07-17, 17:20   Link #48
martino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverado View Post
1. topics are too short
2. useless
3. if it's plain text then it's useless, even a bulletin board is better
4. needs MSN

Yeah, rocket science is pretty much useless.
Are scanlating groups that impractical in general? (You use bulletin boards to store scripts and other related stuff?! LAWL)

You know, the more you post, the more it is evident that you know very little about how a fansubbing group usually works.

1) Research
2) Do the work

Not the other way round.
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Old 2008-07-17, 17:26   Link #49
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I think the real problem here is how to explain that a wheel rolls better than a square. That specialized management software are sweeter than an instant messanger. That advanced web based text editors with roll back feature are more suitable for text editing then ftp clients, because this is exactly what you are doing.
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Old 2008-07-17, 17:33   Link #50
[darkfire]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverado View Post
I think the real problem here is how to explain that a wheel rolls better than a square. That specialized management software are sweeter than an instant messanger. That advanced web based text editors with roll back feature are more suitable for text editing then ftp clients, because this is exactly what you are doing.
Were basic folk. Who do things in a basic way. (Svn not being basic but oh well). ROME should and will only prosper if it makes the irc room better. If it adds chrome to the IRC. It can not be a replacement.

Look at TWITTER, yes you can use the site alone. But you can also be old fashioned and use the phone as usual. They work together. It makes no difference what you use. Just make the site simple and customizable and aimed directly at fansubbers (not scanslators they work differently)
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Old 2008-07-17, 17:35   Link #51
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I've never seen the elusive FTP client that also serves as a text editor. "Advanced web-based text editors with rollback features" might sound something like SVN, but... No, not really. As far as I know, most people edit in a plain text editor (Notepad++ or the like) or in Aegisub itself. These seem to be the standard practices.
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Old 2008-07-17, 17:39   Link #52
theknife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverado View Post
Ok, let me see it through the eyes of a fansuber. maybe you can help me:
We can help you, but only if you are willing to listen
Quote:
1. How do you inform your members about a new task, like that he can time the new anime episode, if your members lives +8h apart from you?
IRC topic. I set it, when they're around, they see it.
Quote:
2. How do you inform your members about changes, mistakes and missing sentences made in a translation, if your translato is offline?
Why do they need to know? Several people shouldn't be working on the same script at the same time.
Quote:
3. Where do you post your translations for proofreading and how do you edit it?
FTP, edit with any text editor, or within aegisub.
Quote:
4. What do you do if someone can't use irc?
Hm... never had the opportunity to run into this. Is the correct answer... "make use of an overcomplicated and wildly inappropriate software package that is not specialized for this specific task"?
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Old 2008-07-17, 17:44   Link #53
silverado
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Have any of you tested Rome and created a task, before you you posted here?
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Old 2008-07-17, 17:51   Link #54
theknife
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Originally Posted by silverado View Post
Have any of you tested Rome and created a task, before you you posted here?
I don't think you really have a good grasp of what the problem is.

What we have works perfectly for our purposes. No one cares if a translation is 25% done or 75% done. It is an absolute waste of time to track progress in this way, because fansubbing tasks are already atomic. You cannot time a translated script until the translation is done. You cannot QC a release candidate until it has been encoded.

You've created another typical CRM-style bloated app to fix something that isn't broken. IRC does everything. You can talk to your team members, leave messages, see what you have to do, and let everyone know when you've finished a task assigned to you. It's easy to see what team members are doing at a glance. What value does Rome add?
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Old 2008-07-17, 17:52   Link #55
[darkfire]
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Well I tried it out and I say... There are options that I don't need. And assumptions that I want to be done.

silverado I will look at your site and go through what I like and disklike. What I would expect as a fansubber and what not. I know its early and not all things have been implemented so I may be mention things that you may implement. This will take me a few hours maybe if I get at it right away.
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Old 2008-07-17, 18:06   Link #56
silverado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theknife View Post
I don't think you really have a good grasp of what the problem is.

What we have works perfectly for our purposes. No one cares if a translation is 25% done or 75% done. It is an absolute waste of time to track progress in this way, because fansubbing tasks are already atomic. You cannot time a translated script until the translation is done. You cannot QC a release candidate until it has been encoded.

You've created another typical CRM-style bloated app to fix something that isn't broken. IRC does everything. You can talk to your team members, leave messages, see what you have to do, and let everyone know when you've finished a task assigned to you. It's easy to see what team members are doing at a glance. What value does Rome add?
It does the same thing as irc without being in irc. I think that's already a lot, isn't it? It has a subversion like text store feature, that let you see what was changed by whom and when. You can change it back to previous versions without storing the same text file multiple times. You can create work flows to fit your work behaviour and you have full control of all activities you see. I think many of you, not all, but many haven't worked with a big set of tasks yet. If you work on 5 different series, each 2 episodes simultanously and every episode has multiple members assiged to, then irc topics just aren't the way to go. I can understand that you want to stick with irc, but I think there is also space for alternatives.
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Old 2008-07-17, 18:14   Link #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverado View Post
If you work on 5 different series and 2 episodes simultanously and every episodes has multiple members working at the same time, irc topics just aren't the way to go.
This is a sanitized version of our channel topic:

show1ep1 @ TL, ep2 @ workraw? || show2ep1 @ RCQC (staff1), ep2 @ time (staff2), ep3 @ Tl/WR || show3ep1 @ TLC (staff3), show3ep2 @ TL (staff3) || show4ep1 @ raw

It's quite clear (at least when you sub in the real show/staff names). If we work on 5 shows, we can have separate channels for each show (as another group I work in does).

Perhaps there is room for other alternatives. However, when I'm done a QC, I don't want to upload a file, trigger events, send notifications, etc. I just want to upload a file and change a name in a topic. How can you make this process more streamlined?
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Old 2008-07-17, 18:27   Link #58
silverado
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When you close an issue in Rome all involved members will be automatically notified. You don't have to say "Hey, I'm done." They already know that you are done.

If you are a translator, your members will know where to find the text file (in the wiki).

If you are a proofreader, your members can compare the current version with a previous version. New lines are highlighted green, deleted lines are in red.

If you find mistakes, you can annotate the texts or edit it directly. You always see who did what. As manager you can create mile stones like "Bokurano Season 1". You can see the overall progress and plan whether you need to recruit new members or not.

If a member is absent, he can create an "I'm Absent" issue or create a topic in the staff forum, all you need is one browser. How easier can this become?
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Old 2008-07-17, 18:33   Link #59
theknife
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Originally Posted by silverado View Post
How easier can this become?
For an example of how this can become easier, see IRC.
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Old 2008-07-17, 18:43   Link #60
[darkfire]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverado View Post
When you close an issue in Rome all involved members will be automatically notified. You don't have to say "Hey, I'm done." They already know that you are done.

If you are a translator, your members will know where to find the text file (in the wiki).

If you are a proofreader, your members can compare the current version with a previous version. New lines are highlighted green, deleted lines are in red.

If you find mistakes, you can annotate the texts or edit it directly. You always see who did what. As manager you can create mile stones like "Bokurano Season 1". You can see the overall progress and plan whether you need to recruit new members or not.

If a member is absent, he can create an "I'm Absent" issue or create a topic in the staff forum, all you need is one browser. How easier can this become?
Thats more then we need.

I'm a typesetter... I have a certain way I name files on my ftp. The ftp is very very structured. We follow a certain syntax. After I upload file I open my irc windows (which is always running) and update the topic all it is a /topic command. Your site introduces a few clicks and requires info that groups just assume.

Can your sit e handle assumption. The IRC room is removed from any of the fansubbing material itself. Why should your site be any different. We put the TL in text files not in wikis thats not going to change. It all has to do with the Import feature of Aegisub which is made to handle text files.

We don't group edit. So a wiki based editing is useless to us. One person edits at a time. Would being able to see changes done in a file be nice... yes. But thats could be done with a compare plugin into aegisub.

Do we need milestones or due dates. No. WE go by the model its done when its done. (In a reasonable frame of time of course).

Describing the task. Typeset Macross 02... Does that need describing. It's self explanatory.
There are various things on the site that are not needed in for fansubing and all it is clutter and confusion. Streamline that site and find a way for it to complement the IRC. Cause we don't want to replace it.
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