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Old 2008-07-29, 18:35   Link #1
Tofusensei
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Fansubber/Industry Panel at Otakon

Just thought I'd plug this panel for those attending Otakon.

I am sure we'll get video of it, too.

From the Otakon description:

Track/Location: Panel 4 (Ballroom 2) | Saturday 8/9 5:30PM - 7:00PM
Fansubber and Industry Discussion (F)(I)

The issue of digital fansubbing and its effect on anime sales has become a major topic of conversation within all facets of the anime world in the US and Japan. Come join us in a discussion panel featuring some of the most experienced American anime industry representatives and some of the world's most experienced fansubbers. Featured panelists include John Sirabella, CEO of Media Blasters, Lance Heiskell, Director of Marketing for Funimation, and veteran representatives from Live-eviL, Shinsen, Anime-Empire, and Dattebayo fansubbing groups.

-Tofu
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Old 2008-07-29, 22:22   Link #2
D404
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Dattebayo eh... lol.

Sounds like it would be something interesting to see/take part in... or maybe it's all a ruse to arrest you guys.
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Old 2008-07-29, 22:46   Link #3
Arm
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Make sure you get a vid of it, seems interesting...


Is this the first combined panel?
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Old 2008-07-30, 00:05   Link #4
Quarkboy
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Too bad no one from Bandai or crunchyroll will be there.

Someone should bring up that Dattebayo has more takedown notices for youtube than funimation does, and see how Lance responds.
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Old 2008-07-30, 02:56   Link #5
getfresh
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tofu, wheres my trans lol!


and did you get my badge info done. I assume I am still running the panel for you(fansub side) right?
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Old 2008-07-30, 15:22   Link #6
Starks
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I hope to god this gets recorded.
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Old 2008-07-30, 17:39   Link #7
getfresh
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I hope not ;x
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Old 2008-07-30, 17:47   Link #8
日本ひきこもり協会
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Awesome "representatives" from warez subbers. No, really.
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Old 2008-07-30, 17:50   Link #9
getfresh
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heh... I'm the rep from SHS I believe, as well as A-E. And I don't sub licensed so comment = uncalled for if that is where it is directed. Anyways in the end all fansubs are warez anyways. So drop the hate factor pleaseand say something constructive.
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Old 2008-07-30, 18:30   Link #10
日本ひきこもり協会
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So you're (I believe is kind of a vague answer but it doesn't matter whether it's you or some robot) representing a group who subs licensed shows? I don't see why groups (SHS and Dattebayo) who subtitle licensed anime be there. I don't know what you are trying to tell the industry people. "Hey we subtitle licensed anime... for the ego!" Or will you try convincing them that subtitling licensed anime is okay? What happened to the "unspoken rule" drop shows when they are licensed? As you guys call yourselves veterans (it's a cool word actually, I might use it too after wasting many years fansubbing) you should be aware of that.

What will you people discuss on the panel? Let me answer the questions that will most likely pop up.

Why did the sales drop? / Why aren't people buying DVDs?
1. The DVDs are expensive. For example I paid for Najica Blitz Tactics DVDs in total 100 euro (4 DVDs, 25 euro each of them). It has just 12 episodes and extras. The extras are just trailers and the full size op/ed. So the question arises in the consumer's head. "Why would I pay for that 100 euro? This is a total rip off. And the trailers can be easily found on youtube or somewhere on the internet. And this is an extra worth paying money?"

2. Downloading stuff is cheaper (like just your internet connection fare).

3. Thanks to shitty promotion of the industry the consumer has no clue what is expecting them. A mere trailer can't really such much about the show. That's why fansubs are useful. The consumer can watch the show and get a better idea whether the product is worth purchasing or not.

4. People are ages behind Japan. The show comes out in North America a year if not longer. It's not really funny when the others have seen it already. Luckily the industry realized that (a bit late but better than never) and started this online streaming stuff. Good job folks that's how you do it.

Fansubs are the pawn of satan! It's all the fault of fansubbers! Y R U DOIN DIS? ;_;
Yes and no. Without fansubs just a few people would buy the DVDs. Thanks to the promotion people are motivated to buy the stuff. For example let's take Haruhi and Lucky Star. No one really expected that these shows would be such a big hit (except that they carry the "KyoAni" stigma). Thanks to the fansubs and bloggers (lol losers, every single one of them) the word spread and people were ready to buy it.

Yes, people who have seen it completely fansubbed may not buy it because they don't think it's worth watching it again or whatever, however it's a fact that these two shows sold like mad thanks to fansubs.

I'm also pretty sure if a.f.k. had no such policy as dropping upon license the sales would have dropped drastically. That brings us back to the point why fansubbers should drop once the show is licensed.

Uh okay... There's nothing else to say in this panel. Can we go now?
Yep, that's it. The industry realized that lately and started online streaming. There's really not much to talk about but I'd be really interested to see the warez subbers persuading the industry people that subbing licensed anime is nothing bad, in fact productive because <insert some creative reason I can't come up but the "representatives" have already ready here>.

Also to make this whole panel not so pointless just get Greg Ayres and tell him that he is fat and sucks at voice acting. I'd love to see his reaction. (Someone should really record the whole thing.)

So basically that's it. "Common sense" pretty much answers all questions, I guess.
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Old 2008-07-30, 18:53   Link #11
getfresh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
So you're (I believe is kind of a vague answer but it doesn't matter whether it's you or some robot) representing a group who subs licensed shows? I don't see why groups (SHS and Dattebayo) who subtitle licensed anime be there. I don't know what you are trying to tell the industry people. "Hey we subtitle licensed anime... for the ego!" Or will you try convincing them that subtitling licensed anime is okay? What happened to the "unspoken rule" drop shows when they are licensed? As you guys call yourselves veterans (it's a cool word actually, I might use it too after wasting many years fansubbing) you should be aware of that.

What will you people discuss on the panel? Let me answer the questions that will most likely pop up.

Why did the sales drop? / Why aren't people buying DVDs?
1. The DVDs are expensive. For example I paid for Najica Blitz Tactics DVDs in total 100 euro (4 DVDs, 25 euro each of them). It has just 12 episodes and extras. The extras are just trailers and the full size op/ed. So the question arises in the consumer's head. "Why would I pay for that 100 euro? This is a total rip off. And the trailers can be easily found on youtube or somewhere on the internet. And this is an extra worth paying money?"

2. Downloading stuff is cheaper (like just your internet connection fare).

3. Thanks to shitty promotion of the industry the consumer has no clue what is expecting them. A mere trailer can't really such much about the show. That's why fansubs are useful. The consumer can watch the show and get a better idea whether the product is worth purchasing or not.

4. People are ages behind Japan. The show comes out in North America a year if not longer. It's not really funny when the others have seen it already. Luckily the industry realized that (a bit late but better than never) and started this online streaming stuff. Good job folks that's how you do it.

Fansubs are the pawn of satan! It's all the fault of fansubbers! Y R U DOIN DIS? ;_;
Yes and no. Without fansubs just a few people would buy the DVDs. Thanks to the promotion people are motivated to buy the stuff. For example let's take Haruhi and Lucky Star. No one really expected that these shows would be such a big hit (except that they carry the "KyoAni" stigma). Thanks to the fansubs and bloggers (lol losers, every single one of them) the word spread and people were ready to buy it.

Yes, people who have seen it completely fansubbed may not buy it because they don't think it's worth watching it again or whatever, however it's a fact that these two shows sold like mad thanks to fansubs.

I'm also pretty sure if a.f.k. had no such policy as dropping upon license the sales would have dropped drastically. That brings us back to the point why fansubbers should drop once the show is licensed.

Uh okay... There's nothing else to say in this panel. Can we go now?
Yep, that's it. The industry realized that lately and started online streaming. There's really not much to talk about but I'd be really interested to see the warez subbers persuading the industry people that subbing licensed anime is nothing bad, in fact productive because <insert some creative reason I can't come up but the "representatives" have already ready here>.

Also to make this whole panel not so pointless just get Greg Ayres and tell him that he is fat and sucks at voice acting. I'd love to see his reaction. (Someone should really record the whole thing.)

So basically that's it. "Common sense" pretty much answers all questions, I guess.
First off it isn't groups themselves being represented, it is subbers. He was just listing groups they are from or help. Secondly, only representing one faction of the subtitle community would be a falsehood as this is a "fansub/industry" panel and a large majority of the community does sub licensed. For a true panel all factors must be considered.

I personally do not agree with licensed subbing, but that is my opinion. In the industries eyes we are all the same. Licensed and unlicensed. Please get over this whole close minded hate business you are stuck on. It is counter productive towards the community as a whole. If you say "OMFG I hate you stop subbing licensed" they will say, "Go to hell, and sub it with an even greater motivation". Also assuming that everything is ego is a falsehood. Maybe they are subbing it just cause they really like it. Maybe it is ego. How do you know, you are not them. You do not read minds...
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Old 2008-07-30, 19:01   Link #12
日本ひきこもり協会
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Didn't my little demonstration of Q/A prove my mind reading skills? Yes, it's mostly because of ego if you say the otherwise it means that you are completely ignorant (there might be people who *keep* subbing the show because they really like it but that's *usually* not the case (speaking from experience)). Also, the post of tofu says "representatives from".

I'm very well aware that people won't stop. If group X stops, group Y will continue or group Z will appear. That's the awful truth and the industry can't do anything against it. Hence I said this is panel is kind of pointless.
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Old 2008-07-30, 19:13   Link #13
getfresh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
Didn't my little demonstration of Q/A prove my mind reading skills? Yes, it's mostly because of ego if you say the otherwise it means that you are completely ignorant (there might be people who *keep* subbing the show because they really like it but that's *usually* not the case (speaking from experience)). Also, the post of tofu says "representatives from".

I'm very well aware that people won't stop. If group X stops, group Y will continue or group Z will appear. That's the awful truth and the industry can't do anything against it. Hence I said this is panel is kind of pointless.
If you say it in those terms wouldn't subbing unlicensed be for ego too? Would subbing period be for it? Why? Of course there is pride in work. Everyone has it who subs. But that does not denote ego all the time. You are making assumptions and to assume is to make and ass of u and me, right.

And so what if they are "representatives from"? All that means is informing the public what areas of the fansub scene the people are from. It shows that the panel is diverse does it not? Do we really need a panel of all the same opinion on subbing? Shouldn't the panel show a more diverse opinion to match how diverse sub groups are? Think about it.

L-E = an old school group unlicensed that goes at their own pace, and still gets things done while focusing mostly on older shows.

A-E = an old school unlicensed group that is more about newer shows.

SHS = a newer group that flip flops between licensed and unlicsened(depending on how staff feel). It lives in the middle swaying back and forth on policy.

DB = a newer group focused on speed subbing and is a true 100% lisenced subber.



Media Blasters = an older licensing company with fansub connections

Funimation = a licensing company that is totally not part of the sub culture, rather the complete corporate opinion.


Doesn't that make sense? You can hate the panel ppl, but their opinion represent a portion of the community with a voice to be heard. Their input is still valuable when you get down to it. Only paying attention to a section of the mass will never get anywhere. It isn't logical at all to say "they are evil, so they shall not be heard" when there are so many of them. We cannot fix the issues surrounding us by closing our eyes and ears just because we dislike who is speaking or what they are speaking about.



And if this panel is pointless, then fansubbing is pointless. Nothing will change if you decide the outcome before even trying.
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Old 2008-07-30, 19:44   Link #14
日本ひきこもり協会
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Cool then you can start making preparations to build an altar and hail me as a new prophet as I shall prophecy that the industry can't do anything against fansubs. There won't be an end to this and people will continue subtitling licensed anime. Let's see... they could stream all shows (that will hurt their budget a little) but sooner or later someone will rip them and they will find their way to the bt networks/IRC. Wasted effort. Q.E.D.

It's all good and nice hearing diverse opinions but if you go and say we will subtitle licensed anime no matter what, that conflicts with their business. You see, there's no reason why the industry would nod to them. On one hand you have people who do this as a hobby, on the other hand you have people who do this to earn money. There's a slight difference.

So here are the two reasons why people subtitle shows: 1. they like them 2. for the ego. To give some examples: group A picks up popular shows of the season but ends up stalling them for some reason. Group B continues subbing show X because group C dropped upon licensing.

By the way quick question: Can I honor the panel with my appearance and share my infinite wisdom of how to sub anime seriously? Though I'm part of a newly emerged group and I'm not really a veteran fansubbing commando.
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Old 2008-07-30, 19:47   Link #15
getfresh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
Cool then you can start making preparations to build an altar and hail me as a new prophet as I shall prophecy that the industry can't do anything against fansubs. There won't be an end to this and people will continue subtitling licensed anime. Let's see... they could stream all shows (that will hurt their budget a little) but sooner or later someone will rip them and they will find their way to the bt networks/IRC. Wasted effort. Q.E.D.

It's all good and nice hearing diverse opinions but if you go and say we will subtitle licensed anime no matter what, that conflicts with their business. You see, there's no reason why the industry would nod to them. On one hand you have people who do this as a hobby, on the other hand you have people who do this to earn money. There's a slight difference.

So here are the two reasons why people subtitle shows: 1. they like them 2. for the ego. To give some examples: group A picks up popular shows of the season but ends up stalling them for some reason. Group B continues subbing show X because group C dropped upon licensing.

By the way quick question: Can I honor the panel with my appearance and share my infinite wisdom of how to sub anime seriously? Though I'm part of a newly emerged group and I'm not really a veteran fansubbing commando.
Talk to tofu, I see no issues in it myself as you have a different viewer than the ppl I know presenting. But yeah, Tofu is dealing with the regging for the panel. I value different points of view. I just don't like generalities, but that is my opinion.
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Old 2008-07-30, 20:43   Link #16
pichu
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heh i hope i'll find the right panel there. ;p
(plan to go there only on Saturday)
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Last edited by pichu; 2008-07-30 at 20:53.
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Old 2008-07-30, 21:49   Link #17
Plorkyeran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
I'm also pretty sure if a.f.k. had no such policy as dropping upon license the sales would have dropped drastically. That brings us back to the point why fansubbers should drop once the show is licensed.
a.f.k didn't drop Haruhi when it was licensed due to that it's rather hard to stop working on a show you already finished. If you think it's possible to "unrelease" a fansub, you're either deluding yourself or haven't paid attention to a single developement in digital distribution in the last decade.

Personally I'm only interested in the panel specifically because it doesn't only have "ethical" fansubbers. If it was just them, it'd probably be an hour of the DVD companies waffling over whether or not to call the fansubbers hypocrites, or maybe they'd agree that it's all the "warez" fansubbers' fault. This way there's a slight chance of an entertaining three-way debate breaking out, and something worthwhile might happen. Do we really need another panel that just consists of the industry saying how fucked they are? Greg Ayres can get away with essentially lecturing the audience by being a fairly entertaining speaker. I don't see how a panel that consists of a group of people not known for being entertaining telling the audience to buy DVDs would be something that anyone would want to go to, though. On the other hand, a panel that consists of fansubbers discussing with the companies why they feel that fansubbing is morally acceptable and why they think that subbing series that simply happen not to have been licensed yet is more acceptable at least has the potential to be interesting.

I just hope that if DB is planning on trolling it that they go for something better than the AJ justification for fansubbing.
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Old 2008-07-30, 21:53   Link #18
getfresh
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Greg Ayres makes me laugh, him and I have have chatted about fansubbing before. He knew I was a subber, and he didn't have 1/10th of the trash talking to say as I keep hearing.

I wonder if he is just trolling fanubbers...
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Old 2008-07-31, 01:43   Link #19
Nicholi
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Anime is ending as we know it. Greg Ayres said it, it must be true!

Lol the guy is full of gems. Two rather large rants he has on fansubbing and "downloading anime" in general.
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=ZZalapski

He could just be trolling fansubbers, but it sure sounds like he seriously believes in everything he is saying. Japanese animation cannot exist without R1 licensing, the nation of Nippon will fall into the ocean. DON'T FANSUB ANIME BECAUSE IT KILLS JAPANESE ARTISTS!
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Old 2008-07-31, 02:06   Link #20
cyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholi View Post
He could just be trolling fansubbers, but it sure sounds like he seriously believes in everything he is saying. Japanese animation cannot exist without R1 licensing, the nation of Nippon will fall into the ocean. DON'T FANSUB ANIME BECAUSE IT KILLS JAPANESE ARTISTS!
He isn't completely bullshitting you, you know. A portion of the Japanese anime market really is dependent on R1 sales. There's some truth in what he says, but it's meaningless if you listen to his preaching and know nothing about the industry.
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