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Old 2008-07-31, 03:12   Link #21
getfresh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
He isn't completely bullshitting you, you know. A portion of the Japanese anime market really is dependent on R1 sales. There's some truth in what he says, but it's meaningless if you listen to his preaching and know nothing about the industry.
The portion of the market dependent on R1 is mainly crap. They are slapped together shows that are 99.9% fanservice ninja magic harem explosions.

If you look at most of the older shows from the 1980's-1990's when licensing was very scarce there were a lot more creative shows. When the licensing boom happened the anime industry in japan met the new market producing what had the lowest costs, highest output, and least risk. They did what any good business does pretty much.

Of course not to say their was crap during the 1980's and 1990's, but it wasn't one hugh cluster fuck of the same things. If you think about it all the concepts they are using now over and over came from around 1977-1998. Things pretty much 100% like DBZ, Sailormoon, Ranma, Maison Ikkoku, Macross, SNS(rip fo LOGH but first got the real attention of the US market), Battle Angel, Hajime no Ippo, Gundam, Pokemon, Fist of the North Star, Akira, etc... are just getting recycled again and again because they proved to be cash cows.

If anything is killing the industry, it is the industry. TV series in the US and elsewhere in the world get ripped served just as much if not more than anime, same with movies, music, etc...

They want to blame fansubs because we operate openly. But, if you get down to it, in recent times even if fansubbing just disappeared would the rippers? I think fansubbing is the lesser of the evils honestly in this case since a fansub is not an exact copy of the R1 scripts, and dubs. It is an amatur version. Even if groups sub licensed I have not seen a group subbing a show that is out on dvd, subbed in R1 yet. It could have happened, but I haven't seen it.

So the only ppl releasing professional versions at the same time as licensers are the rippers. ppl may leech fansubs and watch them, but lets get real. Almost everyone keeping fansubs when dvds come out wouldn't have bought the dvds to begin with more than likely in the first place.

All this is to me is sour grapes and scapegoating. The licensers want someone to blame for bad business decisions, poor management, and lackluster sales. Just like the RIAA did to internet downloading programs/sites for mp3's. But what killed the sales of CD's was the price charged, the quality of music being produced at the time(bands and such), and the fact people liked being able to store more in an easier to access format that they could arrange the songs they like in the way they want to listen to them.

If you look at the new way they do music sales via itunes beatport etc... they are having great sales. They finally gave the customer what the customer wanted. Of course alot of ppl still leech mp3's and don't buy a lot of music. But they can also just turn on the radio and hear those same top pirated songs play on the radio 20 times a day for free, even more so with the new HD radio, internet radio, sat radio.

Anyways... in the end I guess my opinion is, yeah fansubbing is illegal, yeah it prob costs some sales, but I bet it generates far more sales than it takes away since it is free marketing and promotion. I don't think the R1 anime industry would have EVER gotten as big as it did without fansubs.
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Old 2008-07-31, 04:13   Link #22
日本ひきこもり協会
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getfresh View Post

If you look at the new way they do music sales via itunes beatport etc... they are having great sales. They finally gave the customer what the customer wanted. Of course alot of ppl still leech mp3's and don't buy a lot of music. But they can also just turn on the radio and hear those same top pirated songs play on the radio 20 times a day for free, even more so with the new HD radio, internet radio, sat radio.

Anyways... in the end I guess my opinion is, yeah fansubbing is illegal, yeah it prob costs some sales, but I bet it generates far more sales than it takes away since it is free marketing and promotion. I don't think the R1 anime industry would have EVER gotten as big as it did without fansubs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
3. Thanks to shitty promotion of the industry the consumer has no clue what is expecting them. A mere trailer can't really such much about the show. That's why fansubs are useful. The consumer can watch the show and get a better idea whether the product is worth purchasing or not.

4. People are ages behind Japan. The show comes out in North America a year if not longer. It's not really funny when the others have seen it already. Luckily the industry realized that (a bit late but better than never) and started this online streaming stuff. Good job folks that's how you do it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
The portion of the market dependent on R1 is mainly crap. They are slapped together shows that are 99.9% fanservice ninja magic harem explosions.
Back then there weren't so many losers called otaku wandering on the streets. There weren't so many (or were there any at all) Maid Cafes and such who "promote" those shows? These are the shows the majority wants to see and the companies go after that. Just think of it as the Americans wanting to watch action movies and no romance crap.
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Old 2008-07-31, 05:03   Link #23
Ayanami9870
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I feel that subbers on this thread deserve to see the link below:

Anime Expo Industry Roundtable: Fansubs - The Death of Anime?

There's an entire video of the discussion panel at Anime Expo going over the state of the industry and the impact they believe fansubbing has. Basically a collective message where they wake up and realize "okay, we have a situation here." The video is about an hour long but you can give it a good watch as a mental primer for what your panel might be like, or to see what points they missed out so you can refer to them later.
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Old 2008-07-31, 05:16   Link #24
cyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
The portion of the market dependent on R1 is mainly crap. They are slapped together shows that are 99.9% fanservice ninja magic harem explosions.

If you look at most of the older shows from the 1980's-1990's when licensing was very scarce there were a lot more creative shows. When the licensing boom happened the anime industry in japan met the new market producing what had the lowest costs, highest output, and least risk. They did what any good business does pretty much.

Of course not to say their was crap during the 1980's and 1990's, but it wasn't one hugh cluster fuck of the same things.
Apart from crap being in the eyes of beholder theory, ironically, Witchblade, Devil May Cry, and Afro Samurai have been America's best selling anime titles in 2007. It's not that the industry is churning out more crap than usual, it's the fact that what Western licensing companies got out of the 80's and 90's was cream of the crop. Not to mention Japan's economy was at its peak in the early 80's, and that enabled individual creators to get experimental with their projects. Japan was doing better than usual in every field at that time.
Quote:
If anything is killing the industry, it is the industry. TV series in the US and elsewhere in the world get ripped served just as much if not more than anime, same with movies, music, etc...
But the anime industry is not the music or the movie industry. Those industries cater to wider audiences while anime caters to very specific groups of teens and young adults. Only children's anime make it into Japan's mainstream together with rare theatrical exceptions.
Quote:
They want to blame fansubs because we operate openly. But, if you get down to it, in recent times even if fansubbing just disappeared would the rippers? I think fansubbing is the lesser of the evils honestly in this case since a fansub is not an exact copy of the R1 scripts, and dubs.
It doesn't matter what kind of unauthorised anime distribution we're talking about. Fansubs became a big deal when we started using BitTorrent. It got out of control when video streaming sites went mainstream. YouTube is casually talked about on television, it's also the biggest pond of anime piracy, period. The home video industry dreads it because it took away their customers. If fansubbed anime were kept small and accessible to hardcore crowds that specifically looked for it, then we'd have a different story.
Quote:
All this is to me is sour grapes and scapegoating. The licensers want someone to blame for bad business decisions, poor management, and lackluster sales.
[...]
Anyways... in the end I guess my opinion is, yeah fansubbing is illegal, yeah it prob costs some sales, but I bet it generates far more sales than it takes away since it is free marketing and promotion. I don't think the R1 anime industry would have EVER gotten as big as it did without fansubs.
Look, some American licensees certainly made some mistakes, for example flooding the market with must-have anime box sets and slashing consumer's perceived value of anime titles with low price points, but it's foolish to think fansubbing is having a positive effect overall. Hardcore audiences won't buy anime without fansubs, that's a given, but for a number of recent years the American anime industry was fueled by casual anime fans, a.k.a. consumers who bought anime in their local BestBuy and Musicland stores. Good logistics and mainstream brick & mortar store chains were key to the success of anime sales in the U.S. But when YouTube's popularity exploded everything came crashing down, because that casual consumer moved online because he heard of this cool place where he can watch anime for free. You could say anime companies were preying on consumer ignorance, but hey, that was their business model, and it worked. Companies were right to fear BitTorrent, but it's not nearly as widespread as streaming sites. FUNimation has three employees dedicated to taking down illegal sites and streaming videos for their properties and properties of their Japanese partners, they've spread their business to numerous streaming video and VOD services. Basically, they've applied the same brick & mortar model to the digital world, which is spreading content to as many video services as possible.

Honestly, I could go on for hours. With the lack of understand you've managed to demonstrate with your post, I'm sure industry talk isn't your best forte. I think you're great at what you do in fansubbing, but I think it would be best if you left talk on the current workings of the anime industry to Tofu or someone. Seriously, the only thing you guys can relay to the participating industry reps is that fansubbing isn't going anywhere (but they already know that).
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Old 2008-07-31, 08:27   Link #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
I don't see why groups (SHS and Dattebayo) who subtitle licensed anime be there.
Umm, maybe because this is a very serious meeting and we wanted to provide an accurate representation of the fansub scene?

Unless you want to collectively put our heads in the sand and pretend that's not the reality of the situation. Any meeting between fansubbers and industry that doesn't include a group that subs licensed shows (and therefore has an even higher impact on the bottom line of the companies than groups that don't) is inherently flawed.

I see your point, but we're trying to actually accomplish something here. Acknowledging the existence of groups that sub popular licensed shows is an important step because making them go away is just not going to happen.

-Tofu
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Old 2008-07-31, 09:02   Link #26
日本ひきこもり協会
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
Umm, maybe because this is a very serious meeting and we wanted to provide an accurate representation of the fansub scene?

Unless you want to collectively put our heads in the sand and pretend that's not the reality of the situation. Any meeting between fansubbers and industry that doesn't include a group that subs licensed shows (and therefore has an even higher impact on the bottom line of the companies than groups that don't) is inherently flawed.

I see your point, but we're trying to actually accomplish something here. Acknowledging the existence of groups that sub popular licensed shows is an important step because making them go away is just not going to happen.

-Tofu
I can pretty much guess it's srsbsnss. But you are not going to tell me that the companies were not aware that there is a majority of groups who subtitle licensed anime, right? Would you please elaborate the "impact" part? They already know people subtitle licensed anime. Going there and saying "Hey folks, I sub licensed anime! And you can't do shit suck it down!" is just impudent or am I mistaken? You're basically saying that you sub licensed anime and the industry can't do anything against that.
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Old 2008-07-31, 09:09   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
He isn't completely bullshitting you, you know. A portion of the Japanese anime market really is dependent on R1 sales. There's some truth in what he says, but it's meaningless if you listen to his preaching and know nothing about the industry.
Yes but is anime really going to be over as we know it? It's just all going to up and disappear and no one will make it anymore?
Industry roundtable: Fansubs - The Death of Anime?
There is a headline for you. The Death of Anime, really now? I guess I can stop watching since it's all going to be over soon ;-;. Let's use this tactic more of complete bullshit to "educate people". It certainly won't turn people off will it? They'll just keep mindlessly listening to what we say, right?

Omg I don't know the industry but I know a one-sided story of garbage when I see one. Lawl.

@Ayanami9870
Unfortunately the video isn't loading at all but the summary is interesting. Though the future of "A-list material" in America does not sound that appealing to me, lol.

Why is it all these panels never mention ONCE fansubbing of old material that will in all likelihood never be licensed? All they do every time is paint fansubbing as an archaic method of distributing anime that is past its expiration date. There are apparently no positive sides whatsoever to it anymore. I'm guessing because it's not something they can make money from and will only weaken their position that fansubbing is useless. Seriously I might respect/support an "industry representative" who answered that without pulling a Greg Ayres answer: "Go import some LDs and good luck finding an LD player, lol!" Seriously, how is that an answer....

Also I keep noting how they just "can't" (or too difficult??) make contracts for digital distribution, or "can't" somehow release the same time as Japan. The DVDs in Japan come out rather fast after the show is finished airing (not too many months usually), they seem to forget this point? No one expects it to be broadcast in Japan and then simultaneously appear in America in DVD form. Clearly they could speed this process up immensely, possibly even to same date release of DVDs in both regions. However for quickly distributing after broadcast, digital distribution is the only way to realistically do it. Apparently their current model/method of doing things just can't keep up with today though? Lawl, whoda thunk it. Maybe make digital distribution part of the agreement to begin with (sort of like with home video distribution), I donno? Stop worrying about DRM-aids to "protect" copyrighted material. As though they have any control over it now...

Unfortunately it just sounds like nothing but easy answers and ignoring the hard questions of today. Why aren't they pushing more for digital distribution? Or less troublesome licensing? They have this complex system which is clearly slowing them down and preventing them from fulfilling customer expectations, what are they going to do to change it?
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Old 2008-07-31, 09:11   Link #28
Nicholi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
I can pretty much guess it's srsbsnss. But you are not going to tell me that the companies were not aware that there is a majority of groups who subtitle licensed anime, right? Would you please elaborate the "impact" part? They already know people subtitle licensed anime. Going there and saying "Hey folks, I sub licensed anime! And you can't do shit suck it down!" is just impudent or am I mistaken? You're basically saying that you sub licensed anime and the industry can't do anything against that.
He's basically saying "hey fgt, lets not make this a one sided discussion". Subbing licensed shows is part of the "problem". Having everyone come together and talk about it may come up with possible solutions/alternatives/et ceteras. Rather than inviting only "ethical fansubbers", lol.

I seriously doubt the industry reps are going to cut into them and make it some kind of public execution. If they do they are just imbeciles, good luck to them.
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Old 2008-07-31, 09:33   Link #29
cyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholi View Post
Maybe make digital distribution part of the agreement to begin with (sort of like with home video distribution), I donno?
Too bad that video didn't load for you; FUNimation's representative states that they aren't licensing things without digital distribution rights any longer.

About Ayres' panel, of course it was one-sided. <_<;;
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Old 2008-07-31, 09:34   Link #30
日本ひきこもり協会
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholi View Post
He's basically saying "hey fgt, lets not make this a one sided discussion". Subbing licensed shows is part of the "problem". Having everyone come together and talk about it may come up with possible solutions/alternatives/et ceteras. Rather than inviting only "ethical fansubbers", lol.

I seriously doubt the industry reps are going to cut into them and make it some kind of public execution. If they do they are just imbeciles, good luck to them.
If the industry compromises on any point regarding subbing licensed anime, their head should be on the guillotine. The world should be liberated from some stupid souls. Come on, they are trying to draw profit here. Why should they agree with people who do this as a hobby and ruin their sales? Let the C&D letters rain for the greater justice. Do you think they don't learn the fundamental things of running a business in the university?

As I said in the first page, the possible solution would be streaming stuff but someone will go and rip the streams and put it on bt or somewhere. You can't stop them. Just like the music/movie industry can't do anything against the scene. Quite a hard conundrum, I agree, but I'm pretty sure there's no solution both sides will agree.
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Old 2008-07-31, 10:26   Link #31
getfresh
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Originally Posted by Toua View Post
Honestly, I could go on for hours. With the lack of understand you've managed to demonstrate with your post, I'm sure industry talk isn't your best forte. I think you're great at what you do in fansubbing, but I think it would be best if you left talk on the current workings of the anime industry to Tofu or someone. Seriously, the only thing you guys can relay to the participating industry reps is that fansubbing isn't going anywhere (but they already know that).

Sorry but I do talk to tofu quite a bit and I understand the entertainment industry quite well. The anime industry is not some kind of special exemption from the rules of business. Which you seem to believe it is. Yes bt helped spread anime further than ever before, but before BT the digital fansub scene was going full steam either way. BT replaced may different methods of obtaining shows that people were already using like kazaa, newsgroups, irc, DC++, etc...

BT's main contribution over all is the ability to distribute on topsites economically and the fact that the trackers count downloads making it a fairly solid information source on trends in this section of entertainment media.

But in the end BT is not what caused the mass fandom we have now. The craze started around 2000 from what I SAW myself while working for a distributer. Cartoon Network's adultswim, toonami, 4kids, and other programs along with connect speeds getting faster, more information on line that was now easier to come across.

Feel free to try to belittle me more, I am not concerned with people who are negative, close minded and condescending.
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Old 2008-07-31, 10:41   Link #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
If the industry compromises on any point regarding subbing licensed anime, their head should be on the guillotine. The world should be liberated from some stupid souls. Come on, they are trying to draw profit here. Why should they agree with people who do this as a hobby and ruin their sales? Let the C&D letters rain for the greater justice. Do you think they don't learn the fundamental things of running a business in the university?
This is a complete non sequitur. How does appearing on a panel with someone in any way signify approval of thier actions? I rather doubt they're planning to show up and say something along the lines of "We love fansubbers! Please keep illegally downloading anime!"
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Old 2008-07-31, 11:50   Link #33
日本ひきこもり協会
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Originally Posted by Plorkyeran View Post
This is a complete non sequitur. How does appearing on a panel with someone in any way signify approval of thier actions? I rather doubt they're planning to show up and say something along the lines of "We love fansubbers! Please keep illegally downloading anime!"
I'd advise you to re-read what I wrote. I never said appearing on that panel means they will approve anything. No, they will show up there out of courtesy and repeat what I wrote.
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Old 2008-07-31, 12:04   Link #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
I can pretty much guess it's srsbsnss. But you are not going to tell me that the companies were not aware that there is a majority of groups who subtitle licensed anime, right? Would you please elaborate the "impact" part? They already know people subtitle licensed anime. Going there and saying "Hey folks, I sub licensed anime! And you can't do shit suck it down!" is just impudent or am I mistaken? You're basically saying that you sub licensed anime and the industry can't do anything against that.
There are many factors that go into who was chosen to be on the panel besides what groups they are in. There's a much bigger history to it than that.

And please stop making assumptions about what people are going to say on the panel before the panel even takes place.

Also, I don't think the majority of fansub groups subtitle licensed anime. You're overestimating our lack of moral core

-Tofu
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Old 2008-07-31, 12:16   Link #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
There are many factors that go into who was chosen to be on the panel besides what groups they are in. There's a much bigger history to it than that.

And please stop making assumptions about what people are going to say on the panel before the panel even takes place.

Also, I don't think the majority of fansub groups subtitle licensed anime. You're overestimating our lack of moral core

-Tofu
I think if the majority of anime was licensed, that would no longer be true . You shouldn't overestimate the moral core either.
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Old 2008-07-31, 12:37   Link #36
日本ひきこもり協会
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Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
There are many factors that go into who was chosen to be on the panel besides what groups they are in. There's a much bigger history to it than that.

And please stop making assumptions about what people are going to say on the panel before the panel even takes place.

Also, I don't think the majority of fansub groups subtitle licensed anime. You're overestimating our lack of moral core

-Tofu
These are no assumptions. I'm pretty much telling you the future but yeah, you have to see the miracle first before believing.

Also let's face the facts. I can go ahead and star counting groups who don't do licensed stuff: A-E, a.f.k., Triad, L-E, I-Z, A-keep, F-B, Arienai, Lunar (Eclipse *cough*), Solar, Saizen... Okay I think that's it (pretty much). Now if I start listing groups who do licensed stuff, you will be crushed by the wall of text. I noticed that all newly established groups tend to do licensed stuff too. That's quite an interesting development. Point proven.
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Old 2008-07-31, 13:00   Link #37
cyth
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Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
Sorry but I do talk to tofu quite a bit and I understand the entertainment industry quite well. The anime industry is not some kind of special exemption from the rules of business. Which you seem to believe it is.
Business is business, but each industry has its own unique conditions companies need to consider. The music or the movie industry isn't anything like anime because of differences in target consumer scale.
Quote:
Yes bt helped spread anime further than ever before, but before BT the digital fansub scene was going full steam either way. BT replaced may different methods of obtaining shows that people were already using like kazaa, newsgroups, irc, DC++, etc...
All these methods existed of course, but they were nowhere near as widespread as BT is now, and let's not talk about video streaming sites. The bandwidth wasn't there even.
Quote:
But in the end BT is not what caused the mass fandom we have now.
Of course it didn't, but you're assuming the majority of this newly accumulated fandom moved itself to online outlets. That's very much a falsehood.
Quote:
Feel free to try to belittle me more, I am not concerned with people who are negative, close minded and condescending.
Quite the opposite, I'm VERY open-minded, and I had been making the same arguments as you perhaps three or four years ago, but I've eventually learnt new things. In fact, I could say the same thing about you, so let's not get carried away.

I have to apologize for the quotation style reply, it can seem a bit aggressive, it's not my intention. I usually write condensed responses, but I have other things to do today.
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Old 2008-07-31, 16:30   Link #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
These are no assumptions. I'm pretty much telling you the future but yeah, you have to see the miracle first before believing.

Also let's face the facts. I can go ahead and star counting groups who don't do licensed stuff: A-E, a.f.k., Triad, L-E, I-Z, A-keep, F-B, Arienai, Lunar (Eclipse *cough*), Solar, Saizen... Okay I think that's it (pretty much). Now if I start listing groups who do licensed stuff, you will be crushed by the wall of text. I noticed that all newly established groups tend to do licensed stuff too. That's quite an interesting development. Point proven.
Please don't post in this thread anymore. I'm asking kindly as the OP.

-Tofu
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Old 2008-07-31, 16:47   Link #39
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So let me get this straight...there's a panel at Otakon, DB staff is going there to represent all of us subbers? Hmm...

Unless there are other "representatives" that can speak fairly for the part of subbing that doesn't put h264 into an AVI container and decimating the video to achieve awesomely jittery pan motions, not really interested in a recording :/

And this whole subbers vs industry argument...industry argues "omg liek we b dead" while subbers argue "no u we no sub licensed stuff lolekekk," fail to see how all that all over again is going to be interesting.

Just my 2 cents :/
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Old 2008-07-31, 16:50   Link #40
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Please cut the negativity, guys. This will be the first time that such high-level representatives from both side of the fence will be up on stage to discuss in a large forum. It's a big deal.

If you have no interest in the panel or think it will be a pointless waste of time, please don't post in this thread.

-Tofu
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