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Old 2008-07-31, 17:00   Link #41
xris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
And please stop making assumptions about what people are going to say on the panel before the panel even takes place.
Can I ask everyone take note of this. Stop making assumptions about the purpose of the panel and the purpose of this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayami View Post
So let me get this straight...there's a panel at Otakon, DB staff is going there to represent all of us subbers? Hmm...
And here is a good example of someone who appears not to have even read the opening post. Stop making assumptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
Also, I don't think the majority of fansub groups subtitle licensed anime. You're overestimating our lack of moral core
Are you serious about this. Do you really believe that?

Please PM me and we can discuss this viewpoint because I think you are sadly mistaken, very sadly mistaken. I think it would be quite easy to show you otherwise, but this is outside the scope of this thread so please can we continue this via PM.
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Old 2008-07-31, 17:03   Link #42
Tofusensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xris View Post
Can I ask everyone take note of this. Stop making assumptions about the purpose of the panel and the purpose of this thread.

And here is a good example of someone who appears not to have even read the opening post. Stop making assumptions.

Are you serious about this. Do you really believe that?

Please PM me and we can discuss this viewpoint because I think you are sadly mistaken, very sadly mistaken. I think it would be quite easy to show you otherwise, but this is outside the scope of this thread so please can we continue this via PM.
Thanks, xris.

And I'll take your word on the licensed thing. I guess ETG has warped my brain after all these years

-Tofu
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Old 2008-07-31, 17:04   Link #43
Ayanami9870
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I think the heart of the issue lies in the fact that what is considered "high-level representatives of fansubbing" for this panel consists of just four groups (Live-eviL, Shinsen, Anime-Empire, and Dattebayo). Regardless of what group it is, it is still just four groups. I would say that's only a fraction of the entire fansubbing body.

As I've said before, to really understand what's going on in fansubbing, you'd have to realize that most subbers now are increasingly playing by their own rules, subbing on their own accord with their own reasons. This panel is much like any other panel in the past in terms of representation. For the industry to somewhat understand a BIT of what we are as a whole, they gotta get past the hand-picking of small samples from here and there. We're looking at maybe compiling information from many panels, then talking to at least (and I mean AT LEAST) 10-15 different subbers, young and old, from different groups subbing different shows, all of them with varying opinions and motives. Only then would they have a more comprehensive picture of what's going on with us, rather than write us off as some proverbial black box that can't be determined as either helping or harming the industry. That's the kind of entity you're trying to ask questions to. No one single person can speak for all of us in an official capacity.

So, I'd think it'd be sensible to say before the panel begins that what you are about to share with them is really a small part of a rather large and convoluted thing, and that you won't have authoritative answers for everything or for all of us, but at least you'll put forth what you know to the best of your abilities. Just my suggestion.
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Old 2008-07-31, 17:25   Link #44
TGEN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayanami9870 View Post
No one single person can speak for all of us in an official capacity.

So, I'd think it'd be sensible to say before the panel begins that what you are about to share with them is really a small part of a rather large and convoluted thing, and that you won't have authoritative answers for everything or for all of us, but at least you'll put forth what you know to the best of your abilities. Just my suggestion.
That's why it's a panel, and not an expert witness interrogation in court. Not all R1 companies are present either, even though you could argue that they're more coherent as a group, sharing the same interests, unlike fansubbers.

Personally, I think this panel could be entertaining to watch, but I don't see it being a turning point on whatever path of doom The Industry thinks R1 anime releases are on.
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Old 2008-07-31, 17:26   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayanami9870 View Post
I think the heart of the issue lies in the fact that what is considered "high-level representatives of fansubbing" for this panel consists of just four groups (Live-eviL, Shinsen, Anime-Empire, and Dattebayo). Regardless of what group it is, it is still just four groups. I would say that's only a fraction of the entire fansubbing body.

As I've said before, to really understand what's going on in fansubbing, you'd have to realize that most subbers now are increasingly playing by their own rules, subbing on their own accord with their own reasons. This panel is much like any other panel in the past in terms of representation. For the industry to somewhat understand a BIT of what we are as a whole, they gotta get past the hand-picking of small samples from here and there. We're looking at maybe compiling information from many panels, then talking to at least (and I mean AT LEAST) 10-15 different subbers, young and old, from different groups subbing different shows, all of them with varying opinions and motives. Only then would they have a more comprehensive picture of what's going on with us, rather than write us off as some proverbial black box that can't be determined as either helping or harming the industry. That's the kind of entity you're trying to ask questions to. No one single person can speak for all of us in an official capacity.

So, I'd think it'd be sensible to say before the panel begins that what you are about to share with them is really a small part of a rather large and convoluted thing, and that you won't have authoritative answers for everything or for all of us, but at least you'll put forth what you know to the best of your abilities. Just my suggestion.
As swell of an idea that is, it's just not practical. And to come across with any sort of credibility, you do need to take the role as being representative of the entire movement seriously. Stating "this is just 1 opinion in an ocean of many" would do more to harm your credibility than help it, for better or worse.

So the next best thing is taking fansubbers who have been around long enough and have stayed active enough to understand the dynamics of what the different groups are like, etc., and have them discuss on behalf of the fansub scene.

Pretty much every fansubber on the panel will have a minimum of 5 years digisubbing experience at a high level, some of whom as many as 7+.

-Tofu
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Old 2008-07-31, 17:26   Link #46
getfresh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayanami9870 View Post
I think the heart of the issue lies in the fact that what is considered "high-level representatives of fansubbing" for this panel consists of just four groups (Live-eviL, Shinsen, Anime-Empire, and Dattebayo). Regardless of what group it is, it is still just four groups. I would say that's only a fraction of the entire fansubbing body.

As I've said before, to really understand what's going on in fansubbing, you'd have to realize that most subbers now are increasingly playing by their own rules, subbing on their own accord with their own reasons. This panel is much like any other panel in the past in terms of representation. For the industry to somewhat understand a BIT of what we are as a whole, we're looking at maybe compiling information from many panels, then talking to at least (and I mean AT LEAST) 10-15 different subbers, young and old, from different groups subbing different shows, all of them with varying opinions and motives. That's the kind of entity you're trying to ask questions to. No one single person can speak for all of us in an official capacity.

So, I'd think it'd be sensible to say before the panel begins that what you are about to share with them is really a small part of a rather large and convoluted thing, and that you won't have authoritative answers for everything or for all of us, but at least you'll put forth what you know to the best of your abilities. Just my suggestion.
Other subbers are welcome to attend the panel and participate. I understand your point, but it just isn't possible with the time given to have 15 fansubbers presenting. If anyone has topics they want brought up at the panel please msg me whatever it is and I'll bring up things that are suitable for the panel.

If pm me a topic request or question to be asked at the panel that is flame baited, trollish, obviously rhetorical, attention seeking, whiny or condescending I will ignore them.


Pretty much if you are one of the people who is read this post with the sole purpose of arguing, and can't ever seem to post anything that is positive, 99% chance your submission will fall into one of the types I will reject. And no this does not mean I will reject based on "who" submits one. Just on the content of the submission.

Feel free to disagree with me and tell me how wrong I am, or how I can do it better. And why this is so awful, and how it hurts you all.

Last I checked most the people who complain about these things all the time and are experts on how to do them right, never seem to actually help do it. Just a little something to think about.

*this post was not directed at you Aya or anyone specifically.*
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Old 2008-07-31, 17:43   Link #47
martino
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I reckon it would have been nice if you got a couple of people on the panel who have a shorter fansubbing experience, let's say a year or two as an example, to give a bit of a different view on the topics rather than just that of you veterans.
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Old 2008-07-31, 17:45   Link #48
Tofusensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martino View Post
I reckon it would have been nice if you got a couple of people on the panel who have a shorter fansubbing experience, let's say a year or two as an example, to give a bit of a different view on the topics rather than just that of you veterans.
A translator from DB sort of fits that criteria. I really tried to cover all bases here, trust me ^^;

-Tofu
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Old 2008-07-31, 17:46   Link #49
xris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
Please cut the negativity, guys. This will be the first time that such high-level representatives from both side of the fence will be up on stage to discuss in a large forum. It's a big deal.
I would agree that it is a big deal. While only four fansub groups are represented I would say it is a step in the right direction.

Could you give some indication as to how you think the panel will be conducted. Being in the UK, the cons I have been to in the past didn't really have any panels of this nature so I'm wondering how it is planned to proceed.

Will it be that the Industry reps and the fansub group reps give a set spiel and then open to questions from the floor or will it be some sort of debate between members of the panel (from the "opposing" camps as such)?

How are you going to avoid the potential yelling match that we all to often see in forum discussions such as this thread. The people in the audience will all have their own views and if posters here are anything to go by then I could see very little progress because the discussion will be easlly sidetracked by audience participation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayanami9870 View Post
I think the heart of the issue lies in the fact that what is considered "high-level representatives of fansubbing" for this panel consists of just four groups (Live-eviL, Shinsen, Anime-Empire, and Dattebayo). Regardless of what group it is, it is still just four groups. I would say that's only a fraction of the entire fansubbing body.
You are correct that it is only a very small part but all the same it might be a forward step for the discussion between both sides. "high-level representatives of fansubbing" might well be exaggerating to say the least
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayanami9870 View Post
As I've said before, to really understand what's going on in fansubbing, you'd have to realize that most subbers now are increasingly playing by their own rules, subbing on their own accord with their own reasons. This panel is much like any other panel in the past in terms of representation. For the industry to somewhat understand a BIT of what we are as a whole, they gotta get past the hand-picking of small samples from here and there. We're looking at maybe compiling information from many panels, then talking to at least (and I mean AT LEAST) 10-15 different subbers, young and old, from different groups subbing different shows, all of them with varying opinions and motives. Only then would they have a more comprehensive picture of what's going on with us, rather than write us off as some proverbial black box that can't be determined as either helping or harming the industry. That's the kind of entity you're trying to ask questions to. No one single person can speak for all of us in an official capacity.
While having that many groups represented would be nice, it's not really practical I think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayanami9870 View Post
So, I'd think it'd be sensible to say before the panel begins that what you are about to share with them is really a small part of a rather large and convoluted thing, and that you won't have authoritative answers for everything or for all of us, but at least you'll put forth what you know to the best of your abilities. Just my suggestion.
Very good point. I hope that this view is strongly emphasised at the very beginning of the panel.
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Old 2008-07-31, 17:47   Link #50
martino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
A translator from DB sort of fits that criteria. I really tried to cover all bases here, trust me ^^;

-Tofu
Hmmm... I was thinking more along the lines of someone non-licensed orientated, but I guess it could work either way.
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Old 2008-07-31, 17:52   Link #51
getfresh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martino View Post
Hmmm... I was thinking more along the lines of someone non-licensed orientated, but I guess it could work either way.
Tofu and myself are both unlicensed subbers.

and in the past we use to have many more groups o the panel, but there were some technical difficulties surrounding this years panel that forced constraints on the number of people who could be on it.
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Old 2008-07-31, 17:53   Link #52
日本ひきこもり協会
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
As swell of an idea that is, it's just not practical. And to come across with any sort of credibility, you do need to take the role as being representative of the entire movement seriously. Stating "this is just 1 opinion in an ocean of many" would do more to harm your credibility than help it, for better or worse.
As TGEN said this might be fun to watch but this will be by no means a turning point. I personally don't see the big deal of "having a movement" or anything for just a hobby. Seriously this is just a hobby and you are not going to change the world with that. You are being too serious on this matter.

Quote:
So the next best thing is taking fansubbers who have been around long enough and have stayed active enough to understand the dynamics of what the different groups are like, etc., and have them discuss on behalf of the fansub scene.

Pretty much every fansubber on the panel will have a minimum of 5 years digisubbing experience at a high level, some of whom as many as 7+.
Does being around for years make your opinion more valid? This is not rocket science. You don't need to spend years to understand how things work. Why don't you go and ask someone from a newly formed group to participate in this panel? I believe hearing new opinions from a non-veteran could be quite insightful as well. Also who entitles you guys to discuss something this serious on behalf of the whole scene? Were they some polls that I and the rest of the people missed?
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Old 2008-07-31, 18:05   Link #53
xris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
You are being too serious on this matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
Also who entitles you guys to discuss something this serious on behalf of the whole scene?
It's comments like this that seem to imply you are trolling here. One moment you are saying the topic is too serious and then you confirm you also think it is serious.

Again, please stop with the rather pointless negativity. If you don't like the set-up then feel free to organise a panel you think is fair and valid.

Yes, I also think it would be nice to include a newly formed group but we have no idea how easy or difficult this would be to set up, certainly this late in the proceedings.
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Old 2008-07-31, 18:13   Link #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
I personally don't see the big deal of "having a movement" or anything for just a hobby. Seriously this is just a hobby and you are not going to change the world with that. You are being too serious on this matter
Well the allegations coming from inside the industry in the US and Japan have been stating that people's livelihoods are being affected. Major companies have gone out of business and hundreds of people have lost their jobs. Production is down across the board in the Japan and in the US. There are people within the industry who point the finger at fansub groups as one of the main root causes for all this. Obviously, this point is debatable

You still think it's "just a hobby"?

The goal of the panel is to bring the two sides closer together to discuss ways maybe we can work together in order to start pushing the anime industry in the right direction.

-Tofu
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Old 2008-07-31, 18:19   Link #55
日本ひきこもり協会
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
Well the allegations coming from inside the industry in the US and Japan have been stating that people's livelihoods are being affected. Major companies have gone out of business and hundreds of people have lost their jobs. Production is down across the board in the Japan and in the US. There are people within the industry who point the finger at fansub groups as one of the main root causes for all this. Obviously, this point is debatable

You still think it's "just a hobby"?

The goal of the panel is to bring the two sides closer together to discuss ways maybe we can work together in order to start pushing the anime industry in the right direction.

-Tofu
Yes for me it is a hobby and nothing else. I also don't think it's our job to push the industry in the "right direction". As a company they should be capable of making correct decisions or they are better off closing the business. I have the feeling they don't do market analysis before licensing stuff (like Musashi Gundoh) so there's no reason to wonder about some "failures".
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Old 2008-07-31, 18:26   Link #56
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Then we'll have to agree to disagree. Obviously you're a much colder-hearted pirate than I am.

As someone who loves anime, I hate to see production levels drop or the types of shows being made altered to combat widespread piracy caused by fansubs. Being a direct player involved, I'd like to actively seek out any and all ways to help fix the problem. Being a realist, I know quitting fansubbing or shutting down fansub groups will have no long-term effect, so I'm looking for ways to bridge the gap and fix the problem.

You obviously could care less what happens to the medium.

-Tofu
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Old 2008-07-31, 18:42   Link #57
日本ひきこもり協会
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I'm afraid you're missing the point that animes are produced for the Japanese audience at the first rate. I honestly don't plan on peeking in the North American companies business. It's completely up to them how to run their business and if they make mistakes and go bankrupt... well yeah, bad luck, I guess. I'll keep purchasing stuff I like from Japan and that will help the original creators.
The reason why production levels drop and stuff is rather on the side of outsourcing and other means. And unless you are willing to do the job of all the people or pay them, I highly doubt you can contribute in any other way.
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Old 2008-07-31, 19:22   Link #58
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Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
Eclipse *cough*
eclipse does and has always done licensed just fyi
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Old 2008-07-31, 19:36   Link #59
DryFire
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We simply drive the cost of anime to its marginal cost -- $0. Legal or not it's that simple and regular companies can compete and they can potentially make more money than they do now; they just have to be willing to explore new business models (scary).

We are, in a sense, introducing perfect competition to the market place. Basic economics can be so fun... I don't see why we need to beat this horse any longer.
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Old 2008-07-31, 21:55   Link #60
getfresh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
Yes for me it is a hobby and nothing else. I also don't think it's our job to push the industry in the "right direction". As a company they should be capable of making correct decisions or they are better off closing the business. I have the feeling they don't do market analysis before licensing stuff (like Musashi Gundoh) so there's no reason to wonder about some "failures".
You sure are extremely serious and adamant for you to say "Oh it's just a hobby, I don't really care." If you didn't care you wouldn't be so up in arms and obviously getting emotional over the whole situation.

Either way, talk is cheap. And it is totally worthless when it is based on assumptions. I'll let you in on why licensers get stuck with a lot of crap titles since you seem to not understand how this happens. When they go to license a show they want Japanese corps tend to "tack on" other series from their catalog. Basicly they say "If you want Q-anime(generic super popular show), you must also license Z-anime, Y-anime, and X-anime(Poorly received or obscure series)." That is how these R1 firms end up with alot of crap series you see them selling for 5$ a dvd that has 15 epis. The show was bought with the knowledge that it would be a loss, but they set their hopes on the gains getting the big title would bring.

Many times this didn't work out so well. In the end the opportunity cost over shadowed the gains, thats business.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DryFire View Post
We simply drive the cost of anime to its marginal cost -- $0. Legal or not it's that simple and regular companies can compete and they can potentially make more money than they do now; they just have to be willing to explore new business models (scary).

We are, in a sense, introducing perfect competition to the market place. Basic economics can be so fun... I don't see why we need to beat this horse any longer.

agreed... this was suppose to be a thread about the panel but it turned into a panel...
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