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Old 2008-08-02, 03:37   Link #81
cyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon5152 View Post
Putting h264 in avi proves otherwise... :S
It only proves your agitation. Besides, it's not like he's attending the panel.
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Old 2008-08-02, 04:26   Link #82
日本ひきこもり協会
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon5152 View Post
Putting h264 in avi proves otherwise... :S
You certainly don't know him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
I think you guys are just vexed by the fact that your techniques, goals, and ambitions can be explained by someone other than yourselves
So can be the techniques, goals and ambitions of the "representatives". I'm just thinking that seeing "new people" speaking would be better.
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Old 2008-08-02, 09:54   Link #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
How many different fansubbers do you need to make the representation fair? What I don't understand is what would make it more fair if they had more people on the panel. Tofu covered most if not all of the basic backgrounds. I think you guys are just vexed by the fact that your techniques, goals, and ambitions can be explained by someone other than yourselves, or you dislike certain groups you don't wish to be associated with. And it's not like you're forbidden to attend the panel and speak up.

As far as being way too serious about this, if there are no rules in fansubbing, then there shouldn't be any rules how serious you can take it.

P.S.: timecop knows what he's doing.
I don't even think I need to address you, I'm vexed because others are going to speak on behalf of my goals or techniques? Please. Those groups that are representing us are...well let's not go there, they may have been subbing for a long time but...

Ideally I would have hoped that someone from groups such as Lunar or Static-Subs, Eclipse, Anime-Kraze would be there as they offer very high quality fansubs and would speak (in my opinion) more fairly on what fansubbing is. These groups aren't trolls, they don't sub on the side for money, they're purely subbers who sub "for the love it," to quote SS.

And @cyberbeing, that's exactly my concern. These people representing us were not chosen by fansubbers, instead they were chosen by themselves. They may have experience but how do their practices reflect on the real quality side of fansubbing as viewers often argue the differences in quality between R1/R2 DVDs and fansubs? You're missing the point, you may have people who have been subbing for years, but are they really the ones that bring out the quality side of that argument that is so often used when judging between whether to purchase a DVD or to archive a fansub?

This thread being started by someone who is translating for the professional side is already tipping the balances of biasness...come on guys, see deeper into the issue. Please.
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Old 2008-08-02, 10:12   Link #84
日本ひきこもり協会
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayami View Post
And @cyberbeing, that's exactly my concern. These people representing us were not chosen by fansubbers, instead they were chosen by themselves. They may have experience but how do their practices reflect on the real quality side of fansubbing as viewers often argue the differences in quality between R1/R2 DVDs and fansubs? You're missing the point, you may have people who have been subbing for years, but are they really the ones that bring out the quality side of that argument that is so often used when judging between whether to purchase a DVD or to archive a fansub?
Exactly my point. It would made much more sense to hold a poll here beforehand.
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Old 2008-08-02, 10:16   Link #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayami View Post
I don't even think I need to address you, I'm vexed because others are going to speak on behalf of my goals or techniques? Please. Those groups that are representing us are...well let's not go there, they may have been subbing for a long time but...

Ideally I would have hoped that someone from groups such as Lunar or Static-Subs, Eclipse, Anime-Kraze would be there as they offer very high quality fansubs and would speak (in my opinion) more fairly on what fansubbing is. These groups aren't trolls, they don't sub on the side for money, they're purely subbers who sub "for the love it," to quote SS.

And @cyberbeing, that's exactly my concern. These people representing us were not chosen by fansubbers, instead they were chosen by themselves. They may have experience but how do their practices reflect on the real quality side of fansubbing as viewers often argue the differences in quality between R1/R2 DVDs and fansubs? You're missing the point, you may have people who have been subbing for years, but are they really the ones that bring out the quality side of that argument that is so often used when judging between whether to purchase a DVD or to archive a fansub?

This thread being started by someone who is translating for the professional side is already tipping the balances of biasness...come on guys, see deeper into the issue. Please.
Ah, I see. You think that this panel is setting up these fansubbers for a fall. I.e. putting up the "worst" to make the industry seem better in comparison.

All I have to say is: wait until the actual panel, I am quite confident you are simply wrong. I know that even the guy from DB has a far more nuanced opinion than you probably realize (I've heard him talk before at a panel at Anime boston many years ago, I believe).
People within groups often have much more complex views than the groups overall policies.
Also, the fact that all these people have put themselves out there before, i.e. volunteered, should ease your worries that they are people that are out of touch with things.

Like I said before, i have some limited confidence this will turn out to be an interesting panel. Whether it will do any good, who knows, but it's not a setup and the people involved all know what they are getting into.
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Old 2008-08-02, 10:28   Link #86
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Well I don't think that it's going to be purely for fail...there are actually worse subbers out there even as it is, it's not exactly putting our worst against their best but it does seem a bit unbalanced. Though as far as DB having stored more hidden knowledge than the public has come to understand is another issue, but I'll take your word on that..

Agreed that people within groups often do have more complex views, but that's also another thing.

But the fact that these people volunteered themselves is fine, I'm more concerned about that fact that we can't offer our best, and that's where most of my worries lie. We fansubbers often talk about (or justify our subbing based on this) how dubbed DVDs have horrible encodes, but who are we to argue that when we decimate sources that are in fact 29.97 and stuff h264 into an AVI container? I hope you see my point here.

I think most people will be more interested in this panel than not, and that's fine. Though I really can't comment on how much success this'll bring, but we'll wait and see.
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Old 2008-08-02, 10:45   Link #87
cyth
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Ah, so you're talking about the quality these groups produce? Have you seen any of Live-eviL's recent releases? Their Daughter of Twenty Faces is a modern 720p H.264/MKV/softsub/CC release. Along with Live-eviL, Anime Empire has been doing quality stuff for years, SHS has been a major player on the scene ever since 2005, and DB is... well, they're special (timecop knows what he's doing (intentionally) wrong). :) In my opinion, it's a very diverse sample of the fansubbing scene. If fansub quality is your main concern, then I think you're seriously underestimating the announced panelists. getfresh is like the grandfather of VSFilter usage and fansub styling, Tofusensei knows a lot about the industry and is probably the closest thing to a celebrity in our circles. If anything is going to make this panel interesting, it's the fact that distributors know these groups well. FUNimation has dealt with SHS in the past, and who doesn't know of DB?
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Old 2008-08-02, 10:58   Link #88
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Some people are overthinking the whole thing, it's just a panel. Would I be upset that the people who are said to represent 'fansubbers' don't include who I think they should? Not really. They're the ones who are sticking out their necks, not me. My personal nightmare would be being stuck (or unwillingly 'volunteered') for a panel like this, surrounded by mostly "virtual bootleggers" and put on the spot repeatedly. It would honestly be the last place I'd want to be, or spend my time at if I was at a con.

Most of us probably won't even be there in person, if there is going to be any significance to this, it would be best to wait until the post-mortem to decide that. After everyone has watched the video and all that. The panel is probably already set, no one is going to change a thing by debating it now. If anyone watched the video posted around page 2, of the industry-only panel at AX, I expected that to be a 'let's bash on fansubbers' panel but it wasn't. They can surprise you sometimes.
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Old 2008-08-02, 12:02   Link #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayami View Post
Those groups that are representing us are...well let's not go there, they may have been subbing for a long time but...

...

They may have experience but how do their practices reflect on the real quality side of fansubbing as viewers often argue the differences in quality between R1/R2 DVDs and fansubs? You're missing the point, you may have people who have been subbing for years, but are they really the ones that bring out the quality side of that argument that is so often used when judging between whether to purchase a DVD or to archive a fansub?
Do you have a problem with the fansubs my group (L-E) produces? Are we not high enough quality for you? I'm very confused...

Toua, thanks for defending us. I should note that Shion was also 720p/h264/mkv/softsub and we've been softsubbing some shows (Harlock) since well before it was in vogue. Heck, we even remaster the audio for some older shows into true stereo using industry-level audio packages.

-Tofu
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Old 2008-08-02, 12:32   Link #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
Do you have a problem with the fansubs my group (L-E) produces? Are we not high enough quality for you? I'm very confused...
I don't think the issue is the groups who are "representing" fansubbers suck or not. I think it wasn't a good idea just to call yourselves "representatives" without asking the others. As you may know there are more than those four group who subtitle anime.
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Old 2008-08-02, 12:44   Link #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
I don't think the issue is the groups who are "representing" fansubbers suck or not. I think it wasn't a good idea just to call yourselves "representatives" without asking the others. As you may know there are more than those four group who subtitle anime.
If you feel your opinion is not adequately represented, you're more than welcome to take the initiative to get on your soap box and let the world know.

That's all I can say, unfortunately.

-Tofu
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Old 2008-08-02, 12:49   Link #92
日本ひきこもり協会
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
If you feel your opinion is not adequately represented, you're more than welcome to take the initiative to get on your soap box and let the world know.

That's all I can say, unfortunately.

-Tofu
Yes, my opinion is unfortunately not represented hence I'd love to see other fansubbers (unfortunately not a part of these 4 groups) expressing my opinion.
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Old 2008-08-02, 12:52   Link #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
Yes, my opinion is unfortunately not represented hence I'd love to see other fansubbers (unfortunately not a part of these 4 groups) expressing my opinion.
Yes, I got that.

-Tofu
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Old 2008-08-02, 12:56   Link #94
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Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
I don't think the issue is the groups who are "representing" fansubbers suck or not. I think it wasn't a good idea just to call yourselves "representatives" without asking the others. As you may know there are more than those four group who subtitle anime.
You have been whinging and whining about the choice of words for a while now but why don't you try reading the first post of the thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
The issue of digital fansubbing and its effect on anime sales has become a major topic of conversation within all facets of the anime world in the US and Japan. Come join us in a discussion panel featuring some of the most experienced American anime industry representatives and some of the world's most experienced fansubbers. Featured panelists include John Sirabella, CEO of Media Blasters, Lance Heiskell, Director of Marketing for Funimation, and veteran representatives from Live-eviL, Shinsen, Anime-Empire, and Dattebayo fansubbing groups.
"featuring some of the most experienced American anime industry representatives", this use of the word applies to the industry reps.

"some of the world's most experienced fansubbers", no mention that they represent the fansubbers.

"and veteran representatives from Live-eviL, Shinsen, Anime-Empire, and Dattebayo fansubbing groups", the term "representatives" applies to the groups themselves, not fansubbers in general.

I really don't understand what your complaint is here. You have stated
Quote:
Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
Also, the post of tofu says "representatives from".
What is wrong with this. It seems you have mixed up the meaning here. One on hand you seem to be complaining that "representatives" were self appointed but you miss the point that you seem to be the only person who claims they represent fansubbers. The fansub panelists represent their own groups (as clearly stated in the opening post), you are the one who claims otherwise.

Based on your words you are complaining that you object to the specific member of a group being the one who is representing the specific group.
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Old 2008-08-02, 13:21   Link #95
martino
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You'd never be able to "pick" people for the panel to fit everyone. There are too many fansubbers out there, each with their own different view, and thus conflicting interests. While there may be so called "communities" of people with similar thinking and ideals, you'd still be putting in only one side of the spectrum. And I'm not sure what the whole discussion about the groups representing them was. You probably fail to understand that there are people behind them who've been doing this for a while, and know things around them (fansubbing-wise, community-wise, industry-wise) better than most, and shouldn't really mark them as "lawl, bad quality what are they doing there?" -- hurr hurr so called "Shitsen" (I think it's fallen a couple of times in this thread already, and I'm sure many more have that word on their mind and would like to put it down, but can you actually justify its usage while you're writing that post or is it just a word that you learned from your fansubbing peers whom you look upon to that makes someone somehow look cool...) and our good old DB trolls "idiots putting h264 into avi not knowing nothing" etc stuff.
</rant>
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Old 2008-08-02, 14:12   Link #96
日本ひきこもり協会
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Originally Posted by xris View Post
You have been whinging and whining about the choice of words for a while now but why don't you try reading the first post of the thread.
"Whining"? So what? I believe I'm free to express my opinion and that's the point of having a discussion forum.


Quote:

"featuring some of the most experienced American anime industry representatives", this use of the word applies to the industry reps.

"and veteran representatives from Live-eviL, Shinsen, Anime-Empire, and Dattebayo fansubbing groups", the term "representatives" applies to the groups themselves, not fansubbers in general.

I really don't understand what your complaint is here. You have stated

What is wrong with this. It seems you have mixed up the meaning here. One on hand you seem to be complaining that "representatives" were self appointed but you miss the point that you seem to be the only person who claims they represent fansubbers. The fansub panelists represent their own groups (as clearly stated in the opening post), you are the one who claims otherwise.
If they represent these group and hold this panel as fansubbers, it means, in other words that they "represent" the whole scene, or not? As the industry people are not able to talk to others their vision is narrowed just to these four people.

By the way, if you bother and read the previous pages you will see that others also said that seeing "less experienced" fansubbers also participating would be a better idea.

Quote:
Based on your words you are complaining that you object to the specific member of a group being the one who is representing the specific group.
No, see, you didn't understood what I said. I'm "complaining" (rather arguing) that the four group representatives who hold this panel are BFF id est they have approximately the same view. So if you hold this panel and want to do something productive out of it wouldn't it be better to invite people who hold different views and maybe are not veteran fansubbing commandos?
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Old 2008-08-02, 14:16   Link #97
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Quote:
So if you hold this panel and want to do something productive out of it wouldn't it be better to invite people who hold different views and maybe are not veteran fansubbing commandos?
So give us an example. What divergent viewpoint that falls under the rubric "the issue of digital fansubbing and its effect on anime sales" do you think should be addressed? Rather than complaining about the composition of the panel, how about focusing on the issues themselves?
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Old 2008-08-02, 14:31   Link #98
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Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
No, see, you didn't understood what I said. I'm "complaining" (rather arguing) that the four group representatives who hold this panel are BFF id est they have approximately the same view. So if you hold this panel and want to do something productive out of it wouldn't it be better to invite people who hold different views and maybe are not veteran fansubbing commandos?
Again with the assumptions. I haven't even given the names of all the people on the panel and you're already assuming what they're going to say. Please stop.

What group they are with is nowhere near the top of the list when it comes to the criteria for who is chosen to be on the panel.

-Are they even going to be at Otakon?
-Are they polished enough to speak in front of a group and do it well?
-Do I know them personally and do I feel comfortable having them speak in front of so many industry representatives?
-Do they have any experience presenting at a panel before?
-Are they reasonably knowledgeable of the state of the fansub scene and the industry?

All of these come higher on the list of qualifications than what group(s) they are in. Please knock it off already.

-Tofu
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Old 2008-08-02, 14:46   Link #99
日本ひきこもり協会
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Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
Again with the assumptions. I haven't even given the names of all the people on the panel and you're already assuming what they're going to say. Please stop.
Then you can stop this clandestineness and tell us who they are?

Quote:
What group they are with is nowhere near the top of the list when it comes to the criteria for who is chosen to be on the panel.

-Are they even going to be at Otakon?
-Are they polished enough to speak in front of a group and do it well?
-Do I know them personally and do I feel comfortable having them speak in front of so many industry representatives?
-Do they have any experience presenting at a panel before?
-Are they reasonably knowledgeable of the state of the fansub scene and the industry?

All of these come higher on the list of qualifications than what group(s) they are in. Please knock it off already.

-Tofu
This sounds pretty much like a cartel. See, you don't give a chance to others to express their opinions. I don't see the point why is it mandatory to know the participants personally. And may I ask why you would you feel uncomfortable when they talk? Experience is sure a plus but is it really vital? No. Everyone had his first time, you are no exception. And finally this fansub veteran crap again... You are not doing DNA research, this is subtitling anime. Every average person has pretty much a good grasp of what's going on. Fansubbing two years more or less makes no difference. In fact, I'm in the opinion seeing things from a novice perspective would be a pretty good for a change.
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Old 2008-08-02, 14:51   Link #100
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I take it you haven't met a lot of fansubbers IRL. Then you'd understand how proper public speaking skills can be a rarity

Just choosing someone untested in a situation like this is a recipe for disaster.

Anyway, this conversation is going around in circles. I'll be back when the video of the panel is available.

I took the initiative to organize the panel and therefore I can organize it the way I see fit. You, or anyone else, had every opportunity to do the same and you chose not to. I expected some whining from people but this complete lack of gratitude from anyone is rather sad.

-Tofu
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