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Old 2008-09-10, 04:54   Link #61
felix
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And what would be a result the media would like; since I suspect any result is fine and a step forward.
Anyway, I belive the doomsday device is up and running right now. Correct?
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Old 2008-09-10, 06:00   Link #62
Jazzrat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightbatŪ View Post
Funny how people react if I were to say starvation solves overpopulation
but if I critisize "science" It's suddenly worth it to let a 100.000 die in the name of science to save millions
...yet nobody volunteers their family for it
Personal opinion, most of the world's starvation stems from politics and conflicts. It's a lot better to throw those money into a research that might or might not benefit the human race than to buy food for starving childrens even on the assumption that those foods actually reaches them instead of the tribal warlord's pantry.

Anyway, I'm more shocked about the cost overrun of the project. 3.2 to 6b euro from the initial 1.6b. Someone must have been very very optimistic during the planning stages
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Old 2008-09-10, 06:35   Link #63
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a fun, possible end of the universe. I am amused =3
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Old 2008-09-10, 09:49   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Cats View Post
And what would be a result the media would like; since I suspect any result is fine and a step forward.
Anyway, I belive the doomsday device is up and running right now. Correct?
Yup. And the fact I'm typing this probably proves that no black holes had been created (yet).

'Big Bang' experiment starts well

Quote:
Geneva (10 Sept 08): Scientists have hailed a successful switch-on for an enormous experiment which will recreate the conditions a few moments after the Big Bang. They have now fired two beams of particles called protons around the 27km-long tunnel which houses the Large Hadron Collider (LHC).

The first - clockwise - beam completed its first circuit of the underground tunnel at just before 0930 BST. The second - anti-clockwise - beam successfully circled the ring after 1400 BST.

"There it is," project leader Lyn Evans said when the beam completed its lap. There were cheers in the control room when engineers heard of the successful test. He added later: "We had a very good start-up."

- BBC NEWS
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Old 2008-09-10, 10:17   Link #65
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Is this like finding out leprauchaun really exist for physicist? I wiki-ed LHC and the whole explaination flew over my head.
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Old 2008-09-10, 10:28   Link #66
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More like corroborating the evidence of the leprechaun existing, eg: who put the cauldron of gold at the end of the rainbow? (the cauldron being actually there).
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Old 2008-09-10, 10:36   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
Anyway, I'm more shocked about the cost overrun of the project. 3.2 to 6b euro from the initial 1.6b. Someone must have been very very optimistic during the planning stages
That is always the case for any projects that span years to complete.

Here is to today!
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Old 2008-09-10, 10:39   Link #68
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Yup. And the fact I'm typing this probably proves that no black holes had been created (yet).

'Big Bang' experiment starts well
Well, to be fair, they only turned on the switch to power it on today .

It won't be until later when they actually start colliding protons at ultra high speeds full power. The article says it won't be until after winter.

So, we still have a couple months to live.
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Old 2008-09-10, 12:51   Link #69
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Yay we didnt all die.
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Old 2008-09-10, 12:52   Link #70
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Actually... we're all dead. What you're experiencing now is a post-death reality fluctuation on a parallel membrane. (snort, laugh)
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Old 2008-09-10, 13:10   Link #71
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Now now Vexx, everyone is entitled to their fears, thoughts, feelings, excitement etc etc, even if some sides seem totally ridiculous. It is still a risk we're taking by trying something that's never been done, not everyone is in the:
"hey it's science, i'd kill my own mother to advance my race!" or the
"hey, what's a human life or a few million worth anyway, it's for the sake of the evolution process, we must advance!" group.

Besides...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
The article is a bit misleading, let me try and clarify exactly what will be going on this Wednesday:

I was just there (at LHC) 2 weeks ago where we were briefed on the project and the schedule.

This wednesday they are planning on doing the first full circumference beam test. What does that mean? That means that a beam of protons will be going all the way around the entire circle. No colliding. They will test the clockwise one and then the counter clockwise one separately.

They've already tested a beam travelling through 1 of the 8 sectors around the machine and it worked well within tolerances (specifically the beam containment was calibrated properly).


After the full cycle test on wednesday, they will procede to "tuning" the beams, i.e. fine tuning adjustments on the magnets in order to constrain the proton beam into the thinest and most central as possible. This is for somewhat obvious reasons: You want the beams to collide as head on as possible and get as many collisions as possible, so thinning them and aiming them properly is the main function of the "commisioning" process.
It's not known how long this part will take, but most people estimate at least a month.

THEN, after that, they will actually test colliding beams. Furthermore, the first colliding beams will not be at particularly high energies. In fact, they will start off at energies lower than the energy used at other similar experiments that are operating RIGHT NOW at Fermilab in chicago. In them optimistic scenario, they hope to ramp up to full operating spec energy around november.
During the winter the LHC is shut down (this is a cost saving measure due to increase energy costs in switzerland's winter).
Starting around February is a more likely time for the machine to get up to it's full operating potential.

So anyway there is nothing to fear at all wednesday. There is no "switch" that will get pulled.
At some point the machine will be ramped up to energies beyond which experiments have already explored, and that's the time when the unexpected could happen. Or, I suppose, we hope the happens. That's the point after all: To see phenomena we haven't seen yet.
If that really is the case then we'll not expect anything for a while, so we'll not be meeting at the gates of St Peter's just yet
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Old 2008-09-10, 13:21   Link #72
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Actually... we're all dead. What you're experiencing now is a post-death reality fluctuation on a parallel membrane. (snort, laugh)
Is that you St. Peter? I guess I didn't make it in . I don't blame you though.
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Old 2008-09-10, 14:42   Link #73
Jazzrat
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Originally Posted by monir View Post
That is always the case for any projects that span years to complete.

Here is to today!
My company is doing a 1.2b project, good god.. i think my boss would freak out if it over runs by that much at the end of project Altho another project of ours is facing this issue now

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Yay we didnt all die.
Of course we didn't :P they havent even started their experiment yet!
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Old 2008-09-10, 14:46   Link #74
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Quote:
Now now Vexx, everyone is entitled to their fears, thoughts, feelings, excitement etc etc, even if some sides seem totally ridiculous.
Yeah, but also everyone who has such ridiculous fears, thoughts, feelings and excitement should shut the hell up and listen when people who actually know what they're talking about speak.

Everyone has the right to be manipulated into frenzy by mass media. That doesn't mean it's a good thing, though.
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Old 2008-09-10, 15:22   Link #75
felix
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Wk, for a sec there you sounded like a reporter for Fox news.
lol, sorry I just read the other thread earlier.
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Old 2008-09-10, 15:51   Link #76
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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
It is still a risk we're taking by trying something that's never been done,
Wrong. It happens all the time in nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
not everyone is in the:
"hey it's science, i'd kill my own mother to advance my race!" or the
"hey, what's a human life or a few million worth anyway, it's for the sake of the evolution process, we must advance!" group.
I think if some dude at CERN had killed his mother for the advancement of science we would have heard about it in the news.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Yeah, but also everyone who has such ridiculous fears, thoughts, feelings and excitement should shut the hell up and listen when people who actually know what they're talking about speak.
It's plain old egoism. "I don't care to listen but I demand to be heard."
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Old 2008-09-10, 16:41   Link #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
That is always the case for any projects that span years to complete.

Here is to today!
Cheers to that, minor ^^
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Old 2008-09-10, 17:52   Link #78
Mystique
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Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
Wrong. It happens all the time in nature.
So it was said in the news article i posted a few days ago, (care to read back a few posts?) but hey humans always get it right the first time when trying to emulate nature be it medicine, techology or other aspects of science.
Let's spell this out shall we?
The experiment has never been created by humans on such a large scale as this.
Quote:
I think if some dude at CERN had killed his mother for the advancement of science we would have heard about it in the news.
Sarcasm dear, sarcasm...
I've seen my far share of sarcasm from the pro side team in the last few pages, i'm tossing in my two pence at the tone this thread seems to be in currently...
Quote:
It's plain old egoism. "I don't care to listen but I demand to be heard."
you're picking off wanderingknight's post there who related it to me.
WK - imagine, you stand on a platform tied to a bungee jump rope, never done it before, never seen it in action, didn't even know about its existance (in case some people aren't catching on, i'm relating this to the machine here)

So you're on the top, you got your fears, the 'what if's', the "those who know what they're talking about" tell you 'it's fine, it's safe, no problem, etc etc etc'
- You're gonna just listen to that and magically feel all your anxieties melt away, right?
No back of the mind worries, but you brush them to the side, no hesistation, no no, the "person who knows what they're on about" = 100% A-ok.

This is why i said what I said to Vexx.
There are things in this thread from those who support that i just see as WTF?
There are things in this thread from those who're against it, that some of you will go WTF?
Even if pple are running around like headless chickens, let them, let the moment pass, but get off your damn prima donna high horse and do not tell those to simply 'shut up', if an huge ass earthquake happens in Saitama, damn straight those in America are gonna hear "Tokyo!" from the news. (Hell, i've seen earthquakes 2hrs by train up north and it still got pinned down as 'tokyo' - my phone and emails came a flooding as pple thought i was caught up in it) :\
Those with no scientific interest or knowledge hear on the news 'today, scientists have started what is known as the 'big bang' machine, etc...'
that's gonna get a few WTF's.

Rather than get frustrated, learn to exercise some patience alike Quarkboy who actually has the ability to break it down into layman's terms minus the sarcasm.
People then may actually care to listen more... once their inital panic has passed of course

(right, i go to bed now and get back to holidaying like i should be focusin on, lol)
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Old 2008-09-10, 18:51   Link #79
Slice of Life
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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
So it was said in the news article i posted a few days ago, (care to read back a few posts?) but hey humans always get it right the first time when trying to emulate nature be it medicine, techology or other aspects of science.
Let's spell this out shall we?
The experiment has never been created by humans on such a large scale as this.
So what is the difference between a "wrong" and a "right" collision of protons at a given energy in the center of momentum frame? And how comes that it seems to happen the "right" way when humans aren't involved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Sarcasm dear, sarcasm...
The argument was sarcastic only under the condition that yours was polemic. If you were serious and on topic then my remark was a perfectly valid counter argument, wasn't it. I leave it to you to decide which is the case.

I've long come to the conclusion that polemics is best tackled by taking it completely serious.It's that "using the strength of the attacker against him" kind of philosophy.
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Old 2008-09-10, 20:52   Link #80
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WK - imagine, you stand on a platform tied to a bungee jump rope, never done it before, never seen it in action, didn't even know about its existance (in case some people aren't catching on, i'm relating this to the machine here)

So you're on the top, you got your fears, the 'what if's', the "those who know what they're talking about" tell you 'it's fine, it's safe, no problem, etc etc etc'
- You're gonna just listen to that and magically feel all your anxieties melt away, right?
When these people actually happen to have studied their asses off to get a few degrees in bungee jumping then yeah, I would probably trust them. At least over a couple of journalists who haven't got a goddamn clue about bungee jumping, if you get my idea.

Besides, it's not like scientists are actually asking us to jump off a cliff, is it? Your comparison is not valid because it doesn't involve the same "sacrifices" from the common people. Falling from a high place has a well-known consequence for everybody, while the catastrophic consequences of the LHC project are advertised by doomsayers who for the most part don't have any goddamn idea about what a black hole actually is. Needless to say, most people don't know what a black hole is or how is it formed, either.

This is not about knowing or not knowing. This is about seeing the crystal clear fact that the media likes to stir up nonexistent conflicts and create fears in order to sell more. Unfortunately most people don't have enough knowledge about basic science to trust scientists enough. They often think science is just Mythbusters and blowing shit up.
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