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Old 2009-07-12, 07:07   Link #201
AddiKtioNn-BlaCk
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My only problem with C.A.'s thoughts on Haki is that I feel like you over-apply it....
Even Haki is presented in many Manga...
There's no proof that Oda's is using it the same way...
We have never seen anybody but a few characters use Haki...
Whitebeard, Shanks, Rayleigh, Boa Hancock, Monkey D. Luffy, Ronoroa Zoro, Kuja Tribe...
In each of these instances Oda provided evidence that Haki was being used...
And the same goes for in the Anime...
You're theory on Haki is that its part of a person's reputation, domination, and or intimidation...
Oda doesn't provide evidence of that in the manga...
All that you're using to base you're theories on are concepts outside of the manga...
[Note: Not that you're theories aren't interesting or possible]
For example, IN THE MANGA... the only people with Devil Fruits that we've seen use Haki was Boa Hancock and her sisters, and Luffy... Two who possess a special type...
And in the fights we've SEEN them using Haki...
But bases on you're theory... all of the marine Admirals can use Haki...
In which Oda provided no evidence of that...
In all the translations of Haki into English... it translates into "ambition", "will power", "drive" and "aspiration"....
So that's what I'm taking it to be...
Just because Oda is Asian doesn't mean he's using a complete Asian concept....
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Old 2009-07-12, 07:54   Link #202
C.A.
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@ AddiKtioNn-BlaCk

I'm 'over-applying' it because it seems that people cannot understand what Haki is when its described fundamentally.

Ambition, will, intention, people won't understand why it can stop a beam of light, or make people foam from their mouths. Which is why I had to go all the way to explain and repeat myself so many times and make posts that grew bigger and bigger until the context is lost. And I think majority of my points are overlooked or forgotten which is why I still see points I already addressed, brought up again in your post.

I'll repeat one thing one more time and skip the rest to save post size:

As I've mentioned many times, everyone has Haki. Haki is one of the traits, the mood, the spirit humans can have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A.
And like I mentioned in my Ki explanation posts, Ki is referred differently in different situations. Your Ki is your mood and spirit, only when you want to defeat someone it is called '覇気' (haki). Having a killing intention, '殺気' (sakki), having an evil intention, '悪気' (warugi). Feeling serious, '本気' (honki), feeling healthy/energetic, '元気' (genki), innocence, '無邪気' (mujaki). And many more.
If someone uses Haki at you and you resist it, what are you using to resist that Haki? Yes, you are using Haki to resist Haki, if your Haki is weak, his attacks go through to you. If he sends a wave of fear with his Haki and everyone faints and not you, its because you have strong Haki and the rest have weak Haki.

Shanks has Haki we all know it, some of Whitebeards crew can withstand his Haki, Whitebeard himself can take on Shanks. Haki.

Rayleigh sends a wave of fear in the auction house, the Supernovae were the only audience who didn't faint. Haki, Kid and Law uses Devil Fruit abilities. This is how Haki intimidates with the eyes, its the same eyes Shanks used at the Seaking and Luffy used it at Duval's ride.

Rayleigh uses Haki to stop Kizaru, Kizaru resists Rayleigh. Haki.

Luffy and Hancock the only ones using Haki? What about Sandersonia and Marigold?
----------------

Of course Oda doesn't use a complete Asian concept, but he is applying Asian concepts into a Western styled story.

I think I'm really bad at trying to get my points across.
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Old 2009-07-12, 09:11   Link #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
And like I mentioned in my Ki explanation posts, Ki is referred differently in different situations. Your Ki is your mood and spirit, only when you want to defeat someone it is called '覇気' (haki). Having a killing intention, '殺気' (sakki), having an evil intention, '悪気' (warugi). Feeling serious, '本気' (honki), feeling healthy/energetic, '元気' (genki), innocence, '無邪気' (mujaki). And many more.
See I get this.
I understand what you've been saying in you're post from this right here.
If you go by this, then yes you're right, everybody has Haki..
My thing is that it may not be used that way in the Manga.. that's all I'm saying..

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Luffy and Hancock the only ones using Haki? What about Sandersonia and Marigold?
If you go back and read the post I mentioned them, I said "Boa Hancock and her sisters"... but you also haft to take into consideration that they are on a Island that specializes in the use of Haki, which why they may be able to use it so well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
If someone uses Haki at you and you resist it, what are you using to resist that Haki? Yes, you are using Haki to resist Haki, if your Haki is weak, his attacks go through to you. If he sends a wave of fear with his Haki and everyone faints and not you, its because you have strong Haki and the rest have weak Haki.
That's pretty sensible.
I believe Haki to merely be a "manifestation" of willpower on a physical level..
To where people actually feel it.. like they feel wind..
So even if they due use Haki... its not on a conscious level and/or they are unable to manifest it on physical level like the ones we've seen

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Rayleigh sends a wave of fear in the auction house, the Supernovae were the only audience who didn't faint. Haki, Kid and Law uses Devil Fruit abilities. This is how Haki intimidates with the eyes, its the same eyes Shanks used at the Seaking and Luffy used it at Duval's ride.
Yeah, but it was a forced effort..
He didn't do it merely by his presence or anything like that...
Same thing with Shanks...
Luffy's was an unconscious effort but an effort nonetheless
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Old 2009-07-12, 09:43   Link #204
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Its because people are reading translations and the translation use the word 'Haki' in a way that that it stands out from the English words.

E.g. "He has a powerful Haki."

The word 'Haki' sounds like its something special, some special term, but in Japanese its just another word, its nothing special. And it is put in a way, mentioned and used just like other manga which mentions Haki.
------------

Using Haki, what does it mean?

People use Haki all the time, its part of their personality and mood. There's actually only a tiny difference between the way martial artists like the Amazons use Haki and how normal fighters use Haki.

Martial artists are trained to assume aggression in a fight, it becomes part of their routine, they can switch in on and off. This trained aggression and the ability to go into the state of aggression instantaneously is whats different from normal fighters. The Amazons are constantly ready for a fight, they draw their bows and shoot with true intention to hit, this is their controlled aggression.

Normal fighters only become truly aggressive when they're serious, when they feel angered, intense pressure or under stress. This is like Luffy, he only gets serious when he feels that his Nakama is threatened, when lives are at stake. This is when he gets truly aggressive, only when he feels the mood.

Say a street gangster is to get into a fight with a pro boxer. The gangster will taunt at the boxer for a while laughing and not taking it serious. But then the boxer gives him an intense stare and throws a serious punch at the gangster. Only now the gangster will realise that the boxer is serious business and he himself becomes serious and have real aggression.

That seriousness and state of aggression is when Haki is brought out.
-------------

Now compare it to Shanks and Rayleigh. For a moment they are smiling and docile, in the next they assume an intense and intimidating stare, did they have training as a martial artist?

No, you do not need to be a martial artist to learn how to be aggressive. Shanks and Rayleigh are people who have gone through real combat and life and death situations, they know when to get serious or not. They can bring out their Haki anytime, they can switch from docile to aggressive immediately.

Luffy only got the same aggression, the intimidating stare after going through many life and death situations, but he is still not serious enough, he is still not mature enough. He can only bring out this Haki when he feels threatened, when lives are at stake, like when he shouted and gave the intense look on his face when Hancock wanted the 3 Amazons to be smashed.

The eyes are important, it tells of a person's will and intentions. Like many people earlier on in the story, the people who knew Roger, said that Luffy had the same eyes as him. And Luffy only recently has gotten the exact same look in his eyes, the Haki that will make him the Pirate King.

I don't call it a 'forced effort', I call it a controlled effort. The ability to have control over your state of mind, your mood, is important in controlling your Haki. What Luffy needs to learn now is to be serious when the situation needs it and not only when he truly feels threatened.
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Old 2009-07-12, 18:12   Link #205
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C.A. -

Forget Japanese, let me try to spell the joke out for you, in a very English context, (if it's too western, I apologize) because you're arguing the same point repeatedly and I don't think you are getting what I'm trying to say.

Are you familiar with Star Wars? I'm not a big Star Wars fan, personally, but in the story there's a 'magical' power called 'the force' that can play mind tricks and levitate objects and whatever else. Only a handful of people have the ability to use 'the force' in the Star Wars universe.

Now, imagine Princess Leia or someone sees Han Solo beat someone up and she says "wow, Han, you put so much force into that attack!" Get it? It's a play on words!!! Han can't use the force but she said he used force!!!

Anyone can apply force but it's not the same as being able to use 'the force.' Everyone has haki, ambition, or fighting spirit, or heart, or the will to be the best, but not everyone has the ability to use haki, the 'magical' power-up that Oda made up. And he's being an utter troll by switching the context on us.
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Old 2009-07-14, 16:28   Link #206
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C.A thanks for sharing that information. I want to know is why would you say luffy's haki is something very few people posess, would that be equivalent to say that very few people posess that "drive". It seems like from what your describing that being intimidated by haki, is being intimidated by one's "desire to achieve"

for example : the feeling you get when you meet someone with the same goals as you but seems much more driven and well accomplished.
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Old 2009-07-15, 11:53   Link #207
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@stray, actually what you pointed out is one of the reasons why the West cannot grasp Haki. The Western perspective do not have an idea what 'Ki' is. Anyway I talked about the Force and Ki in the cultural references thread. And I've been a Star Wars fan for a long time, I can also tell you that everyone is part of the Force, but not everyone has the aptitude to use the Force.

Say a simple 'Force Push', it taps into the Force between the user and the target and applying his control of the Force, he pushes the Force against the target, causing the target to be pushed away. Everything is within the Force, users and non users. A Force user doesn't 'produce force', he manipulates the Force in everything to manipulate his surroundings. Why does it take so much control and concentration to push or lift a large object like the X Wing? Because the X Wing's mass means that it exerts alot on the Force, you need to manipulate alot of that Force to move it.

A non user is still part of the Force, they affect the Force, but it does not have the ability to manipulate it by will.

"Feel the Force, let the Force flow through you." You do not produce Force out of nothing, you manipulate and interact with the Force between and within all things. Anyway while this is similar to Haki, Haki in any context is completely different from the word play between Force and force. It does not belong to this thread, I shall not continue on this Force discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashesatdusk View Post
C.A thanks for sharing that information. I want to know is why would you say luffy's haki is something very few people posess, would that be equivalent to say that very few people posess that "drive". It seems like from what your describing that being intimidated by haki, is being intimidated by one's "desire to achieve"

for example : the feeling you get when you meet someone with the same goals as you but seems much more driven and well accomplished.
Yes, you are correct.

Someone with an extremely intense drive to carry out his ambitions and reach for his goals often inspire people with similar dreams if not, intimidate those with conflicting goals.

It can also mean someone with such overwhelming pride and power that he stands above all others, people either look up to or worship the person, or fear his pride and power.

Both of these refer to the way Luffy and Hancock has the 'Haoushoku Haki'(King's Coloured/Disposition Haki'.

Luffy has such a powerful drive and belief that he will become the Pirate King, he has the will to overcome everything because he believes that if he gets defeated by such obstacles, he won't live up to his dreams. His ambition itself is his Haoushoku Haki. His Nakama trusts him for his will and determination, they feel that they can do anything when he is around. His enemies fear his name because of the outrageous deeds he commited.

Hancock believes that she is the most beautiful and powerful woman in the world and she certainly lives up to her pride. Her pride and confidence from her power and beauty makes her Haki the Haoushoku level. Her beauty and power puts her in the place firmly as the Queen of Amazon Lily, she rules over her subjects who adore her. Her pride and confidence from her power and beauty makes her Haki the Haoushoku level. But her enemies fear her beauty and power, especially with her beauty being the deadly lure to her power. Yes, Hancock has that Haki because with her beauty, her Devil Fruit ability makes her extremely powerful.

And a little bit on how Luffy and Hancock interacts.

Because of Luffy's lack of interest in her beauty, its the first time she recieved such a dent to her pride. You can say her Haki weakens when it comes to Luffy, instead Hancock is attracted by Luffy's even greater Haoushoku Haki, she even looks up to him and falls in love with him. She is impressed by Luffy's selflessness to save the 3 Amazons turned to stone and even covered their hideous tattoos. She is impressed by Luffy doing something greater than she can do, thus she is attracted to his Haki.
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Old 2009-07-15, 12:16   Link #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Luffy has such a powerful drive and belief that he will become the Pirate King, he has the will to overcome everything because he believes that if he gets defeated by such obstacles, he won't live up to his dreams. His ambition itself is his Haoushoku Haki. His Nakama trusts him for his will and determination, they feel that they can do anything when he is around. His enemies fear his name because of the outrageous deeds he commited.
Clearly his will hasn't been enough to persevere all the time (i.e. losing his whole crew at the archipelago and suffering an utter defeat at the hands of Magellan). It didn't matter how much conviction/determination he had in these instances because he was powerless to do anything. Having a strong will is important to advance further, but it doesn't always guarantee success in one's endeavors.
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Old 2009-07-15, 12:38   Link #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Clearly his will hasn't been enough to persevere all the time (i.e. losing his whole crew at the archipelago and suffering an utter defeat at the hands of Magellan). It didn't matter how much conviction/determination he had in these instances because he was powerless to do anything. Having a strong will is important to advance further, but it doesn't always guarantee success in one's endeavors.
Yes, this is what it means by Ki being a mood.

I bring this back up again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A.
And like I mentioned in my Ki explanation posts, Ki is referred differently in different situations. Your Ki is your mood and spirit, only when you want to defeat someone it is called '覇気' (haki). Having a killing intention, '殺気' (sakki), having an evil intention, '悪気' (warugi). Feeling serious, '本気' (honki), feeling healthy/energetic, '元気' (genki), innocence, '無邪気' (mujaki). And many more.
If one is not in the mindset and determination to defeat someone, it means that he does not have Haki at that point.

When Kuma sent the Straw Hats flying off, Luffy clearly was in a state of desperation, he has no Haki, or any positive Ki in his mind. His will and spirit was shattered and he was at a loss.

In this case, you can also say that Luffy and his crew was crushed by Kuma's overwhelming Haki, actually was a double crush, earlier on by Kizaru. The crew's fighting spirit was battered by Kizaru's invincibility, then Kuma appeared to do even more damage to their fighting spirit. As they become more desperate they lose more hope and intention of defeating their opponents, their Haki is gone. This is what Haki means by mood and spirit, the crew was completely defeated by the 2 powerful enemies who had the great intentions in defeating them. That intention to overcome and defeat is the exact meaning of Haki.

To have the Haki to defeat someone, you need the will and determination, the drive to do it. This is in times when Luffy feels that he really wants to defeat his enemies and he becomes really serious. Luffy needs to be able to get himself into a serious mindset in order to control his Haki. His aloofness is what makes his Haki erratic.
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Old 2009-07-15, 12:57   Link #210
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Yes, this is what it means by Ki being a mood.

I bring this back up again:If one is not in the mindset and determination to defeat someone, it means that he does not have Haki at that point.

When Kuma sent the Straw Hats flying off, Luffy clearly was in a state of desperation, he has no Haki, or any positive Ki in his mind. His will and spirit was shattered and he was at a loss.

In this case, you can also say that Luffy and his crew was crushed by Kuma's overwhelming Haki, actually was a double crush, earlier on by Kizaru. The crew's fighting spirit was battered by Kizaru's invincibility, then Kuma appeared to do even more damage to their fighting spirit. As they become more desperate they lose more hope and intention of defeating their opponents, their Haki is gone. This is what Haki means by mood and spirit, the crew was completely defeated by the 2 powerful enemies who had the great intentions in defeating them. That intention to overcome and defeat is the exact meaning of Haki.
I understand all of this, but it doesn't change the fact that the strawhats are still clearly inadequate (not strong enough) at this point in the story. They could have been exuberant and in the best physical condition of their lives, and they still would have lost miserably against Kizaru or Kuma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
To have the Haki to defeat someone, you need the will and determination, the drive to do it. This is in times when Luffy feels that he really wants to defeat his enemies and he becomes really serious. Luffy needs to be able to get himself into a serious mindset in order to control his Haki. His aloofness is what makes his Haki erratic.
What about Luffy's fight against Magellan? He was basically at his peak fighting condition, and yet he suffered a terrible loss against the warden. And this was a very dire situation, indeed. We're talking about Luffy trying to race towards Ace in time before he would get executed. With that being said, he had plenty of incentive, will, and determination to rescue Ace. It was that sense of urgency (knowing that Ace would die if he didn't make it in time) that allowed him to perform at his absolute best (being completely serious and not messing around at all). Despite all of this, he still failed in the end when he confronted Magellan.
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Old 2009-07-15, 13:45   Link #211
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What about Luffy's fight against Magellan? He was basically at his peak fighting condition, and yet he suffered a terrible loss against the warden. And this was a very dire situation, indeed. We're talking about Luffy trying to race towards Ace in time before he would get executed. With that being said, he had plenty of incentive, will, and determination to rescue Ace. It was that sense of urgency (knowing that Ace would die if he didn't make it in time) that allowed him to perform at his absolute best (being completely serious and not messing around at all). Despite all of this, he still failed in the end when he confronted Magellan.
Having strong Haki doesn't mean you will win, because your opponent also has Haki. As I've described in earlier posts, Haki works as a balance of the fighters' wills, Magellan definitely has his own will and determination.

Is Luffy's will to save Ace stronger than Magellan's will to stop Luffy from saving Ace? Can that will also be equal?

While Haki is compared, we still have to take into account their powers and abilities, Luffy had no defence against poison. You can even say that Magellan's poisons can directly rob a person of their fighting spirit. Be it paralysis, intense pain, direct tissue damage, all these afflictions will damage one's will.

Luffy's lack of control of his Haki at this point makes him still quite average against the most powerful characters.
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Old 2009-07-15, 14:48   Link #212
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Having strong Haki doesn't mean you will win, because your opponent also has Haki. As I've described in earlier posts, Haki works as a balance of the fighters' wills, Magellan definitely has his own will and determination.
Exactly. From the beginning of our Haki conversation today, I said:

Quote:
Clearly his will hasn't been enough to persevere all the time (i.e. losing his whole crew at the archipelago and suffering an utter defeat at the hands of Magellan). It didn't matter how much conviction/determination he had in these instances because he was powerless to do anything. Having a strong will is important to advance further, but it doesn't always guarantee success in one's endeavors
This means that I've acknowledged that Haki alone is not enough to make one succeed, so I'm not quite sure why you disagreed with me in the first place since you're now simply proving my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
While Haki is compared, we still have to take into account their powers and abilities, Luffy had no defence against poison. You can even say that Magellan's poisons can directly rob a person of their fighting spirit. Be it paralysis, intense pain, direct tissue damage, all these afflictions will damage one's will.
Of course. This whole time I've been considering other factors, such as: Speed, Strength/Power, Durability, Special Abilities, Intelligence, Battle Experience, etc. Luffy probably wins in the speed department, but in all the other categories, Magellan is superior to Luffy, which is the real reason why Luffy ultimately lost. Haki had little to no bearing on the outcome of that battle. Sure, in top physical condition (mood and spirit), it provides one with the impetus to perform at their best, but it is not the deciding factor as to who will win a fight.
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Old 2009-07-15, 18:00   Link #213
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Its not disagreement lol, I just added onto your posts. I said yes to your original post.

Anyway, the way I view Haki in battle is as a potential multiplier, it makes the difference between victory and defeat. As I mentioned in the previous page:
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A.
Here's a very simple way to look at things, lets say Haki can be calculated, this is how it will be calculated:

Pirate A:
[Strong personality (10 points) + devil fruit ability (10 points) + superhuman strength (10 points)] x weak control of Haki (0.5 multiplier)
= 30 x 0.5
= 15 Haki points

Pirate B:
[Strong personality (10 points) + superhuman strength (10 points) + good weapon (5 points)] x moderate control of Haki (1.0 multiplier)
= 25 x 1.0
= 25 Haki points

Pirate C:
[Moderate personality (5 points) + super human strength (10 points)] x great control of Haki (2.0 multiplier)
= 15 x 2.0
= 30 Haki points

This is exactly how Haki would work if its in maths. You can see that the conditions in [square brackets], are exactly what makes up the Haki of a person, and then there's a multiplier which is determined by how good the person can control his Haki. Pirate C, even with a moderate personality, not too determined, can defeat Pirate A and B who are strong opponents.

But if Pirate A is Luffy, and he has learnt how to control his Haki, which makes his multiplier increase, he will be stronger than both Pirate B and C.

This is exactly how Haki works in One Piece.
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Old 2009-07-15, 21:51   Link #214
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覇気 (haki in Japanese, ba hey in Cantonese) is simply the 'force' felt through intimidation. Its not a complicated concept, though it is abstract. For example, if we were all sitting in a hospital, and a huge man with tatoos and a shaven head walks through the door, then we would possibly feel intimidated by him. Thats all 'haki' is, nothing more.

Can't see how C.A. can apply it to predicting people's attacks, knocking people out and imbuing weapons with it, but there ya go.
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Old 2009-07-16, 11:33   Link #215
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Didn't you used to say that Haki is not intimidation and criticised me for comparing and rationalising it according to real world examples?

And intimidation is not just what Haki is all about, phsyical intimidation is the weakest form of Haki. You can also be intimidated by a person's reputation, which means his reputation is his Haki. And the person has a reputation because he has an intention, an ambition. A powerful Haki comes from a person with great ambition, his power and authority makes him an intimidating man.

To intimidate is to frighten, cause fear, remove courage and weaken spirits. People do faint in real life from fear, it happens from time to time. Its the same thing when manga characters use a Haki burst to intimidate people, its just exaggerated. The intimidation, fear is so strong that a group of people can faint at the same time. Those with stronger wills were just left shocked or paralysed by fear instead of fainting.

A weapon is an extension of a fighter's body. When a fighter swings a weapon, he doesn't do it randomly, there is emphasis and intention to hit in every swing or stroke. Its just in manga, its exaggerated in such a way that the intention to hit can even be passed into an arrow so much that it smashes rocks. I've used the example of the Hong Kong manhua Feng Yun, where there's extensive practice of Haki in their martial arts. There was this guy who used a bow, who's arrows are homing phoenixes formed from his Haki. The arrows had so much intention that it 'comes to life' and become a phoenix that chases its target.
------------

For predicting attacks, it will need a little bit more explanation. It could be a unique skill to Sandersonia, no one is sure, but Haki was indeed used in manga to predict attacks before.

Very simple, non Haki explanation:

Sandersonia is a snake, snakes can 'taste the air' with their tongues, in fact its their most important method of sensing the surroundings. By using their tongues to flicker through the air, they can not only smell/taste their targets, but they can also feel the air currents and pressure from movements in the air. Sandersonia could be using this sensitive ability to predict movements, an exaggerated manga effect.

Haki explanation:

I've been saying Ki is everything, its the atmosphere, mood and spirit.

Example, a house on the top of the hill has a reputation to be haunted, people are afraid of getting close to it. You and your friend decide to enter it for fun. The house has broken windows, creaking doors and floors, spiderwebs all over the place. It has a spooky atmosphere, your adventurous spirit changes to fear as you sense that there's someone staring at you all the time, giving a spooky presence. Your mood changes as the air feels kind of chilly, sending chills down your spine, you decide to leave.

That is the Ki that the haunted house makes, '怖気', ozoke, frightening Ki, it has a frightful, spooky atmosphere that makes people scared. But if you're brave enough, the house will not scare you. And if the house is renovated and made to look new, it will not have a spooky atmosphere anymore, unless people know of its old reputation and may still be spooked at times. Japanese attributes mood directly to how the atmosphere feels.

In English there's 'the tension in the air was so thick, it could be cut with a knife', this is a description similar to what Ki describes, the air is the mood.

People can create the mood of the occasion, imagine everyone is on a fun trip. But some guy decides to be stupid and plays a prank on a girl. The girl was hurt and cries, everyone's spirits were dampened because of that.

And back at Haki. Haki is the mood and atmosphere that someone carries when they are in a fight, that intention to defeat each other also sends intimidation to both sides. Can fighters train themselves to read the atmosphere of a fight so well that they can predict moves? Can the intentions of a fighter be read through the air? It can be similar to how Mantra works in the Skypeia arc, through great understanding of Haki, you may also be able to read intentions like how Mantra 'hears'.

In other manga, there are indeed applications of Haki to sense the opponents intentions and next move. But because its used by Sandersonia in One Piece, it may also still just be Sandersonia's unique ability, using her snake senses to not just feel air movements, but Ki itself. She definitely predicts movements by sensing through the air.
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Old 2009-07-16, 12:27   Link #216
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I'm just stating the definition of the term. Thats what 'ba hey' means literally. I'm not trying to interpret what Odas trying to convey by using this concept and I don't think speculating is wise at this point, as we don't really have too much information yet.
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Old 2009-07-24, 17:43   Link #217
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To me, haki feels more like an invisible type of nen like what Hunter x Hunter has.

The "willpower" thing is a nice theory, but that doesn't explain at all how Margaret said how arrows are stronger when infused with haki in chapter 516. Your arrows suddenly becoming stronger because of your "strong will" is silly. Infusing objects with your "willpower" to make them a lot stronger sounds even sillier.

Also, no matter what, Luffy is the rubberman. He can't activate or deactivate his rubber characteristics, they just are. He's the rubberman regardless of his mood, and regardless of his willpower. He can be the most depressed man in the world, and he'll still be rubber. The idea that someone's "willpower" is stronger and can therefore hit Luffy with his fists goes against everything we know of Luffy's rubber characteristics in the One Piece universe.

Not to mention that this "willpower" theory makes for a huge cop-out, a dues ex machina if you will. Reading C.A. justify his "haki = willpower" theory is almost like watching a jehova witness trying to prove that his god is real by pulling random theories and "feelings" out of his hat. I don't think One Piece needs such weak theories to keep the plot/action logically consistent.
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Old 2009-07-24, 18:51   Link #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSDSSDWE View Post
To me, haki feels more like an invisible type of nen like what Hunter x Hunter has.

The "willpower" thing is a nice theory, but that doesn't explain at all how Margaret said how arrows are stronger when infused with haki in chapter 516. Your arrows suddenly becoming stronger because of your "strong will" is silly. Infusing objects with your "willpower" to make them a lot stronger sounds even sillier.

Also, no matter what, Luffy is the rubberman. He can't activate or deactivate his rubber characteristics, they just are. He's the rubberman regardless of his mood, and regardless of his willpower. He can be the most depressed man in the world, and he'll still be rubber. The idea that someone's "willpower" is stronger and can therefore hit Luffy with his fists goes against everything we know of Luffy's rubber characteristics in the One Piece universe.

Not to mention that this "willpower" theory makes for a huge cop-out, a dues ex machina if you will. Reading C.A. justify his "haki = willpower" theory is almost like watching a jehova witness trying to prove that his god is real by pulling random theories and "feelings" out of his hat. I don't think One Piece needs such weak theories to keep the plot/action logically consistent.
You obviously haven't read everything that I posted or understood most.

Funny that you bring 'nen' into this topic as well, because 'nen' is a word just like 'haki', a normal everyday term in Japanese that the West sees as some kind of 'special concept'. Nen, in fact comes from the same intention and will power that Haki is based on.

The fact is the Japanese culture is very spiritual and sees the spirit, and will of a person as his strength. Your strength, health and emotions comes from a person's spirit, that spirit is 'Ki'. Oda is just another one of these spiritual Japanese and he's applying the exact same concept into One Piece.

I've already explained how Haki affects bows so many times in this thread, I've also addressed how Devil Fruit abilities doesn't matter against Haki.

Have you seen Fist of the North Star? I'll explain with it even if you've not watched it.

Kenshiro is known for his super human strength, he beats opponents into pulp. But his strongest moves are not based on strength, its based on Ki. He either strengthens himself with Ki or he destroys the opponents Ki. All his muscles are just a side effect from his training to help him master his Ki.

When fighting weak opponents, just simple muscle is needed, but when fighting truly strong opponents, Ki is what decides victory or defeat.

Raoh is a huge man, he's extremely powerful physically. But his physical strength came from his intention and will to become the strongest martial artist in the world. That intention and will, his ambition, is his Haki.

When Kenshiro fought Raoh, it was almost a non phsyical fight, it was a contest of Ki. Raoh's famous last punch, he yelled: "my entire soul's fist", it is the intention and will to defeat someone that gives you power, not your physical powers.

The Japanese view fights as a contest of wills and not a contest of strength. You do not win because you are strong, you win because you refuse to be defeated. That willpower and determination is the spirit, or Ki, that gives you victory.

Even in the real world,not just Japanese, even Western boxers, they do not rely on just their physical strength. They also need the willpower and determination to continue through the rounds and alot of them even pray to God before fights.
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Old 2009-07-24, 19:16   Link #219
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
You obviously haven't read everything that I posted or understood most.
I haven't read everything, but I get what you're trying to say.

Quote:
Funny that you bring 'nen' into this topic as well, because 'nen' is a word just like 'haki', a normal everyday term in Japanese that the West sees as some kind of 'special concept'. Nen, in fact comes from the same intention and will power that Haki is based on.
I said nen as presented in Hunter x Hunter. Nen in HxH is a real "force". It's not "willpower", it's a real "power" that can even materialize, depending on how you go about it.

Quote:
I've already explained how Haki affects bows so many times in this thread, I've also addressed how Devil Fruit abilities doesn't matter against Haki.
Yes, but your explanations aren't very sensible. On page 11 you called the bow thing
Quote:
exaggerated in such a way that the intention to hit can even be passed into an arrow so much that it smashes rocks
The fact that you called that an exaggeration already means it has gone beyond (i.e. excessive) what you've meant, it's gone into an "exaggerated" area of effect. Besides, that theory is just silly. How can mere willing something make an inanimate object such as an arrow stronger? How do you fuse/influence something that's not alive with your will? It's idiotic.

Your explanations for the Devil Fruit abilities are equally nonsensical. If you knew OP/Luffy you'd know that his abilities cannot be shut off based on his mood. It's always "on", regardless of how he feels. That he's overwhelmed in terms of "willpower" which makes people suddenly be able to hit him properly is a assumption that has 0 support in the manga.
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Old 2009-07-24, 19:29   Link #220
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Do you not believe your will can be strong enough to do impossible things? The lack of belief in this will makes you weaker than those who believe. It is that belief and the will to accomplish that makes people strong, in life or in fiction.

And in fiction, they exaggerate this will, so much that even an arrow can become stronger. Did you skip my explanation on weapons being an extension of the human body? If you can swing a sword and the sword reflects your intentions, can it be done with a bow? You don't believe that an arrow can carry a person's intentions, but the practitioners of Kyudo(Japanese traditional archery) do.

Even for a gun, its the intention to kill someone that causes death. If your intention is to cause injury and you put all your will and focus into aiming properly at non lethal parts, you will not kill but just cause injury to the arm or leg.

I've never talked about mood shutting Devil Fruit abilities. I've always been saying that Haki is based on mood, that mood is your spirit. If you do not have the mood to 'Ha'(dominate), you do not have 'Haki'.

I urge you to read and understand my posts before arguing with me again. Because you obviously are bringing up points that I've already addressed and you're claiming that stuff don't make sense because you have only read half or less of it. My posts start all the way back in page 3.
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