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Old 2009-06-11, 03:00   Link #161
paradox13
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Intimidation isn't the same as Haki.

Thats why what you say in this thread is wrong.

If a gangster came up to me threatening to beat me up, would i faint? I think not. No I might get scared, I might run away or I might decide to stand up to the guy and fight, but I wouldn't faint.

More importantly, you can't imbue 'intimidation' or 'ambition' on a weapon can you? You can't because they are abstract concepts. Haki is just a plot device. I don't understand why you people keep trying to rationalize it or connect it with some real life concept.

And its not true that all strong willed people have powerful haki. Rofl, WB doesn't seem to use haki the way shanks n co uses it, as people on WB's ship express their surprise at Shanks's power. As I've mentioned before, this proves that haki is rare even in the New World. WB is the most powerful man in the world, more powerful then Ray, more powerful then Shanks, and yet his haki isn't noteworthy by all means. He has an incredible will and charisma (hes willing to declare war on the WG for his nakama), and yet his haki isn't all that great. Same wtih Aokiji and Kizaru. No-one on this board would question their strength, confidence or determination and yet we've not seen them use haki even once.

BB has a dream, to become Pirate King. The same goes for Kidd and Law, and yet none of the 3 use haki. Croc had a dream as well, and I didn't see him using haki either. Clearly having a dream does not help with haki.

All your posts are baseless, groundless statements, nothing but pure and unadulterated speculation. I wish you would stop posting it as if it was fact.
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Old 2009-06-11, 03:05   Link #162
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Haki is not just limited to fighting, as I've stated in my large post.

Haki is literally in everything in One Piece and Oda already established it all the way back in Volume 1 with Shanks and the Seaking.

Haki has been working all the way, just that the word itself is not mentioned until recently or like 5 years ago. Haki has been around all the while, but now that its mentioned, Oda is trying to tell us that Haki will be something that will be making a difference from now on.

Luffy's grand dream and determination to be the Pirate King is what makes him so charismatic and powerful. Because he is so determined to become the Pirate King, he doesn't fall from defeat, he just keeps standing up and press on. His spirit makes his Nakama trust and believe in him and makes his enemies fear his strength. That is Luffy's Haki at work, all the way from the start.
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Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
All your posts are baseless, groundless statements, nothing but pure and unadulterated speculation. I wish you would stop posting it as if it was fact.
Yes, of course. You have all the evidence and proof to prove me wrong.

Yes, I know, you must be correct because you said it.[/sarcasm]

Have to put that tag on, people used to tell me my sarcasm wasn't very clear.
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Old 2009-06-11, 03:19   Link #163
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When did shanks = everything? The only people shown to be able to use haki are the people from Roger's crew and the women from Amazon Lily. As such, I am confused as to where you got your 'haki is literally everything in One Piece' assertion from. We havn't seen a single person from the WG using it, nor have we seen WB or any other pirate or revolutionary using it EXCEPT ex-Roger Pirates.

Btw, you havn't refuted any of my points at all, just so you know.

You're spewing the same ol' crap as before,.

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Yes, of course. You have all the evidence and proof to prove me wrong.
At least I base my arguments on stuff from the manga. What do you base your statements on?
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Old 2009-06-11, 03:28   Link #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
When did shanks = everything?

I'm confused.
Seems like you really have no idea what is going on at all. Because you have no understanding of what Haki is at all, you're not going to convince anyone here.

I have no idea how to help you understand though.

When Shanks stared at the Seaking back in volume 1, he intimidated the Seaking with his Haki.

Intimidation with Haki is the most fundamental Haki effect in all manga, its literally shown in every manga with Haki.
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Old 2009-06-11, 03:58   Link #165
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Shanks doesn't equal everything.

I know Shanks used haki against the Seaking back in volume 1, foreshadowing Luffy's usage of said technique on Duval's cow. I also know that he used haki on WB's ship, causing most of WB's men to faint and cracking the ship to boot. I can bloody name all the scenes in which Haki was used. Trust me, I know whats going on.

You on the other hand seem to have no idea what your own arguments are....

Why don't you try replying to my arguments for once and not dodging the issue?
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Old 2009-06-11, 05:29   Link #166
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Let me just give you an advice, you're embarrassing yourself here.

You know why I'm not arguing any of your points? Because all my answers are already in my big post above. Your 'arguments' are all just showing that you don't understand any of my post.

Shanks = everything? I wonder how you process sentences. Haki is everything in One Piece, yes, and it was established way back in volume 1 with Shanks and the Seaking. Doesn't that mean: "Haki has been around since volume 1 when Shanks demonstrated Haki"?

How do you see Haki? Ki, how do you see the spirit, the air? No, you don't see it, you feel it.

Why do the pirates fear the Shichibukai, the Admirals? Why do the Marines fear powerful pirates? Why did the crew freak out when Kizaru paid them a visit? Why were they so terrified when Kuma sent them off one by one?

To have that overwhelming power and will, is to have Haki. Enemies will be intimidated by your powerful spirit. Once intimidated, their Haki drops, the group's Haki drops. The group becomes weaker and fall apart when their Haki is overwhelmed by the enemy.
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Old 2009-06-11, 06:46   Link #167
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I understand what your tryiing to say. You're equating haki with reputation and trying to find a logical explanation as to how it works. Well firstly, I'd like to say thats its all just speculation. Theres nothing to back it up. Sure people are afraid of the shichibukai and the admirals, but that has NOTHING whatsoever to do with haki.

Quote:
Why do the pirates fear the Shichibukai, the Admirals? Why do the Marines fear powerful pirates? Why did the crew freak out when Kizaru paid them a visit? Why were they so terrified when Kuma sent them off one by one?
You seem to be mixing up 2 issues here.

Firstly, its normal to be freaked out or afraid of someone with a reputation as a badass. Thats logical, it happens in real life, as you pointed out yourself with your totally apt analogy to a gangster.

Pirates are afraid of the Shichibukai because of thier reputation. Same case with the Marines being afraid of WB. Same with Kizaru. A bit different with Kuma; they're afraid of where Kuma is sending them because they do not know where it is. Fear of the unknown. Like why we fear death, because we don't know what happens to us after we die. Its normal and natural.

However, the crux of the issue here is that reputation does not equal to haki. Which shichibukai have you seen use haki? Which Admiral, which marine, which powerful pirate (aside from those from Roger's crew)?

I'm sure people like WB and Aokiji have strong wills. They're powerful, confident, and dare I say determined people who have reached levels far surpassing most of their contemporaries. And yet they don't seem to be able to use haki to the extent of Margaret, Shanks, Ray or even Luffy. It has nothing to do with their will, power, determination or confidence, because if thats the case then WB definitely has a much stronger will and is more powerful and charismatic then most of the women on Amazon Lily. And yet we don't see WB using haki?

Quote:
"Haki has been around since volume 1 when Shanks demonstrated Haki"?
As I reiterate, we have not seen anyone use haki except for people from Roger's crew and the Amazons. Thats it. It might've been around forever, and yet we hardly see anyone using it. I wonder why.

Quote:
How do you see Haki? Ki, how do you see the spirit, the air? No, you don't see it, you feel it.
The fuck are you talking about man? How do you imbue reputation or 'spirit' as you like to call it, onto weapons?

Do you not get what I'm trying to say? It seems its you who has no idea what I'm talking about.
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Old 2009-06-11, 07:03   Link #168
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Seems like I can actually give you a hand here, because you may actually have asked the right questions.

Reputation, yes that reputation is the person's Haki itself. One's reputation is made up of his ambition, or simply the things he has done. A powerful man has a great reputation because his Haki made it so. Use my shop owner to CEO example above, that person's ambition to become more successful expanded his reputation, he becomes well known for his work.

The problem you have is that you think Haki is something that must be actively imbued, must be activated, or that it can only be used actively.

But no, what I've been saying is that Haki is both passive and active, you'll always have your Haki passively, but you can also actively raise it.

And like you said, its normal for people to freak out or be afraid of someone with a reputation. Because, yes Haki is just that, its just that normal. Like I said, Haki is in everyone, but you're thinking Haki is something rare. No, Haki is in everyone, but they must have this will and ambition to bring it out.

Hey, if we continue, you may actually finally understand what's Haki. I'm glad that this may actually become a more proper discussion lol
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Old 2009-06-11, 09:30   Link #169
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Quote:
No, Haki is in everyone, but they must have this will and ambition to bring it out.
The first problem with your argument is that you state that reputation = haki.

If reputation/will/spirit = haki, then what you say is absolutely true and everyone does indeed 'have' haki.

However reputation doesn't equal haki.

If it did, then we wouldve seen a lot more people use it. Alright fair enough, you can argue that people like Arlong and Don Krieg lack the willpower, the charisma and the determination to bring out their haki. However, how can you say the same about people like Kizaru, Aokiji, WB and even the Supernova? None of the people I mentioned (admirals, WB, supernova) have shown any hint of being able to use haki.

If it was so simple, then we'd have seen them use it. They definitely possess the will and ambition to bring it out. BB is literally a Luffy clone, with the same dreams, the same determination it seems, a better mind, and being a 'D' to boot, and yet he hasn't shown any ability of using haki. Using haki isn't so simple as to require just 'will' and 'ambition' (i quote from your post).

And like I said before, people from whitebeard's crew was surprised and confused as to what was causing their shipmates to faint. Only the most experienced of WB's commanders knew what it was, showing that it is indeed a rare ability, even in the New world, and definitely not a common ability.

Let me ask a question. Who would you say is the guy with the greatest reputation in the OP world?

That would undoubtedly be Whitebeard. And yet the very same WB has shown no capacity whatsoever of being able to use haki. If the pre-requisites of being able to use haki was simply will, ambition, reputation and power, then WB should be able to use it right? And yet he can't. One must ask why this is.

Either your theory is wrong or else WB is actually a cowardly, weak little man.

Quote:
The problem you have is that you think Haki is something that must be actively imbued, must be activated, or that it can only be used actively.
The second problem with your theory is the fact that you completely ignore the other effects of haki.

Haki isn't only used to make people faint or to intimidate people. It can also be used to imbue weapons in order to make it stronger, more powerful, as the women from Amazon Lily have shown us. It can also be used to predict people's attacks and (possibly) protect oneself from damage as Marigold and her sister have shown. Your theory ignores this entirely and does not attempt to address it at all.


Stop treating me like someone who can't read or understand your posts because I can. Hopefully you can understand what I'm trying to argue.
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Old 2009-06-11, 10:28   Link #170
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You're still seeing that Haki must be presented in a physical way, expressed in physically observable state. You're saying I'm ignoring the other effects of Haki, but aren't you the one who's ignoring the other effects of Haki?

I've already addressed the physical effects of Haki, I asked the questions:

Can Haki be so strong that even light would freeze in its tracks? Or rather, the one who wielded light, to freeze in his tracks? Can you have such powerful intention in hitting someone that your punch will hurt someone that can't be hurt? Can you will your arrows into splitting rocks apart? Do you have the will to think that you can do these?

Though short, these are the Haki that everyone sees, including those you mentioned. I'm not addressing these because I'm addressing everything else, the entire bulk of Haki that people do not have a clear idea of. If you skip this part and read the rest of my post, that's how big the entire bulk of what Haki is that's not applied physically.

Did WB not show his Haki? No, he has always been showing it, like I said, that reputation of a person and how people would fear his name, is Haki at work. He has ruled over people hearts, his enemies feared him, his allies feel protected by him. Not just his crew, but even the islands that he protects with his name, the Fishman Island which Jinbei holds his gratitude to White Beard for helping.

Why did Robin fear Aokiji so much? Why did the rest of the crew fear this seemingly friendly man immediately after Robin explains who he is?

Why did Kizaru strike fear into the pirates when he crash into the island?

Did the Supernovae not have Haki? Of course they had Haki, though they may all have different levels of Haki, Kid and Law's crew could hold their own against Rayleigh's Haki.

What makes you think WB doesn't have Haki? Because he didn't make people faint, because he didn't use a Haki attack against Shanks? Is there something special in a Haki imbued attack? No, there's nothing special, it doesn't look extra flashy, it doesn't emit light, it doesn't look like its more powerful, absolutely nothing special at all. Its just the same attack, but it goes through.

In all types of forces, there's a difference, when there's a difference, the force travels from a higher potential difference to a lower potential difference. Water flows from higher ground to lower regions. Electricity, voltage is that potential difference, it determines the flow of electric current. Heat, a region of higher temperature will transfer to a region of lower temperature.

Now apply that to Haki. If your Haki is stronger than your opponent(s), your attack will flow through him, how strong is the flow, this current, depends on the potential difference. If the difference in Haki between you and your opponent, he could probably be knocked out by your sheer will. If the difference is small, you may lend him a good hit, but not enough to take him out. If the difference is equal? Nothing happens.

So did Whitebeard not use his Haki against Shanks? He didn't falter at all in Shank's presence, most of his crew as well, some did, but most still stood up even when his Haki is strong enough that even the ship gave way by that powerful Haki. When Whitebeard and Shanks clashed, it is also the clash of their Haki, but their Haki is as strong as each others and neither gave way, 'nothing' happened. Well they say that if you smack two things hard enough, something's got to give way, so, the sky gave way instead.

Haki attacks are not flashy, they don't look anything special at all. They are just powerful, they feel powerful. Because Haki is not seen, but felt. And we have been feeling Haki all the while in One Piece.

People only seem to look at Haki for its physical effects, but that is really just the visible tip of the iceberg. The rest of Haki is much more, all underneath, unseen. What I want people to know is this part that's unseen. Haki as the spirit, the will that's emanating from a person. Haki that attracts allies, repels enemies.

Do continue to question me, because I think you're going to understand what Haki is. Do note I'm not speculating, I'm stating the meaning of Haki. Haki is a word that's in the dictionary and it has a meaning. It is a common word that can be used in everyday speech, because its just a normal thing.
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Old 2009-06-11, 11:00   Link #171
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Quote:
Do continue to question me, because I think you're going to understand what Haki is. Do note I'm not speculating, I'm stating the meaning of Haki. Haki is a word that's in the dictionary and it has a meaning. It is a common word that can be used in everyday speech, because its just a normal thing.
Which language are you speaking?

Because I'm semi fluent in cantonese and Chinese, and well I'm not sure what haki translates to, but I know 'kong qi' isn't used in everyday speech, and when it is, people speak of it as an abstract phenomena, and not a normal thing (for the record I know the two aren't the same thing, but its similar and I'm just using it for the argument).

And you do know that sometimes when mangaka use common words, they mean an entirely different thing. I'm not saying its definitely the case here, but it is something to think about. For example, Kishi's chakra is different from chakra in its original meaning and context. Even Oda's use of 'pirate' is not exactly the same as its original meaning. I mean, which real life pirate has a crew of 9, sails around for fun, and does not steal, rob, rape or pillage?

Quote:
So did Whitebeard not use his Haki against Shanks?
Evidently Whitebeard's haki does not cause people to faint nor does it have any noticeable effects. Nor does Aokiji or Kizaru's.

What I'm trying to say is that you can't mix normal, natural intimidation by reputation with supernatural haki. Its not a logical argument, because its impossible in our world to destroy a rock with your will. No matter how hard you will something to happen, if its physically impossible then it won't happen. I don't understand how you can mix the 2 concepts up like that.

You're trying to use logic and reasoning to explain an illogical and supernatural concept. It doesn't work like that (although priests do try). ;p
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Old 2009-06-11, 11:39   Link #172
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I speak both Chinese and Japanese, then Hokkien as well if you're including dialects.

Qi Gong is the practice of 'qi' or 'ki' in Japanese, as a form of exercise, or health regulating. If you refer back to my original post on this thread, you can see my explanation of 'ki'. It is the spirit, life force, basically the health of a person. When you practice Qi Gong, you're regulating your 'qi'/'ki', it exercises your body, mind and spirit. Or you can say an exercise for your aura.

Haki is not Qi Gong, but a form of qi / ki. Qi Gong is a system of exercises. Haki is this aura that a person gives out, the way he affects the atmosphere of things, with his will or charisma or fear.

And it seems you always miss out my points, or you're just skipping them without reading. I've already explained the above in my original post, even my posts that I posted last year. And then you're bring up Whitebeard's Haki not causing people to faint. Did you skip my entire 'potential difference' paragraph?

Fainting is when the difference is so great, the weaker side just gives in. Is Shanks going to faint from Whitebeard?

Were any of Aokiji or Kizaru's opponents so weak that they'd faint without even a need to fight? They were affected by their Haki, they were all afraid, all intimidated by their presence, their Haki.

And Haki in manga compared to real life is just like how fighting is in manga compared to real life. They are just brought to extreme magnitudes. Do people fight in real life, yes, but just not as exaggerated. Do people have Haki in real life, yes, but just not as exaggerated.

Can a person have an ambition, a dream, in real life? Of course they can. But can anyone be as determined as a manga character? No, but that's where exaggeration and supension of belief takes over.

"This guy's punches is so fast that he punches faster than the speed of sound."
"This guy's Haki is so strong that people faint from their fear."

Haki is not illogical, it has always been part of real life, just that its exaggerated in fiction.

Oda used Haki in One Piece because he didn't want to create a special Shounen power unit of measurement or power up or some special energy system. He is using a down to earth, realistic way to show a person's will and determination and how it carries through.
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Old 2009-06-11, 12:33   Link #173
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I agree and disagree with what some of what you guys are saying here. Even though some make sense and some of what guys say don't add up.

I believe Haki to be purely Willpower, Strong Spirit, and/or Ambition that manifested itself on a physical level, like Holypanl said. Lets look at this from a "Real Life" prospective. I saw on the Discovery channel where they were talking about the Supernatural abilities of the human body (nothing mystical or anything). They used 2 examples, one was when a man was stranded far out in the ocean or whatever it was (he wasn't in the middle of nowhere or nothing like that), and he swam from 20 or so minutes straight back to shore burning nearly 40% of his body fat. Something like that is not humanly possible. But in his case, was a prime example of "Willpower and Determination" pushing the body passed its limits. Another case was when this guy was under a 500 or something pound rock and he was sliding off a cliff and his brain and body muscles gathered strength beyond what his body could handle to push the rock off (and he was in critical condition afterward but its another example of Willpower and Determination manifesting itself on a physical level. Or when the lady lifted a bus (not all the way) because her child was crying and stuck underneath (another example).

Now in One Piece, Haki can be seen as manifesting itself in the same way (for the most part, because it IS A MANGA or SHounen or wateva u call it, its going to be exaggerated), as we see people who (most of the time not DF users) lift up buildings, houses, 2 ton cannonballs (Garp), Zoro Asura form.

I dont believe reputation has anything to do with a person's Haki, as C.A. had said. Anybody can be feared through a reputation, it had nothing to do with Haki. If a guy beats 30 dudes to death at the same time and then somebody tells you he comin for you next, automatically you're going to be scared (which would affect you're Haki) because you're going to think this guy is really strong and can fight like hell, or he's insane and can fight like hell. So when you see that person, fear (which can affect your own Haki) can be self-imposed because of what you heard. Because i knew guys who had reputations for being bad boys and ended up getting BITCHED! and people wasn't intimidated by him anymore except for people who can't fight at all (the PUNKS basically)

Haki isn't used all ANIME-ISH as Chakra is used in Naruto or the Spiritual Pressure (Reiatsu) is used in Bleach. Like C.A. had said, its nothing flashy, when Shanks and Whitebeard clashed, nothing happen, it was simple attack. Now i Disagree with C.A. when you said "Whitebeard always uses Haki" because he doesn't. If he did, the people that fainted when Shanks boarded the ship, wouldn't even be able to handle being on the same ship as Whitebeard. Haki is, generally, used on a conscious level. Shanks said himself that he had to be a little threatening since it was a enemy ship (go read the chapter for yourself). The only person who used Haki on a unconscious level is Luffy, as he only used it (unconsciously) during life-threatening situations.

When Shanks scared off the Sea King and Luffy knocked the bull was different, its not necessarily a use of Haki. When Luffy knocked out the bull nobody knew what happen, which was the exact opposite of when Dark King Rayleigh used it. A person's strength/energy can be felt through eye contact also (without making a conscious effort), which is what happen. In can happen in Real life, you can staring at a person in the streets that look threatening, the moment he look at you and gives that "what the hell you lookin' at?" look, you look away because you dont want any trouble. Being in his presence didn't intimidate you, but the moment he looked at you, the intimidation is felt. Or even with a non-threatening person, like a girl you look or something.

DF users don't have Haki the way non-DF users have Haki. No DF user has been shown to be able to use Haki (noticeably anyway) except for Monkey D. Luffy and Boa Hancock. And they have "Haoushoku (Kings Deposition) Haki". So until Oda shows otherwise, I'm not buying DF-users can use Haki. None of the 11 Supernovas can use Haki, they easily plucked off by Kizaru. Yeah Eustass and Law withstood the blast of Rayleigh's Haki.. but so did Nami and Usopp.

Last edited by Red-Haired_Shanks; 2009-06-11 at 14:59.
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Old 2009-06-11, 18:35   Link #174
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With all the recent activity here, I figure I'd jump into the fray a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-Haired_Shanks View Post
I believe Haki to be purely Willpower, Strong Spirit, and/or Ambition that manifested itself on a physical level, like Holypanl said. Lets look at this from a "Real Life" prospective. I saw on the Discovery channel where they were talking about the Supernatural abilities of the human body (nothing mystical or anything). They used 2 examples, one was when a man was stranded far out in the ocean or whatever it was (he wasn't in the middle of nowhere or nothing like that), and he swam from 20 or so minutes straight back to shore burning nearly 40% of his body fat. Something like that is not humanly possible. But in his case, was a prime example of "Willpower and Determination" pushing the body passed its limits. Another case was when this guy was under a 500 or something pound rock and he was sliding off a cliff and his brain and body muscles gathered strength beyond what his body could handle to push the rock off (and he was in critical condition afterward but its another example of Willpower and Determination manifesting itself on a physical level. Or when the lady lifted a bus (not all the way) because her child was crying and stuck underneath (another example).
Quote:
Haki isn't used all ANIME-ISH as Chakra is used in Naruto or the Spiritual Pressure (Reiatsu) is used in Bleach.
You've hit a good point here. What I'm seeing from this post of yours is that Haki is less of an "inner energy" like Ki and more a case of "mind over matter." And you are right, Haki here is not displayed like Chakra or Reitsu, there is no visible "flow" of energy or the like to really signify it.

From your examples, one could interpret that "Haki" is simply a matter of believing that you can do something.

Rayleign could parry a sword of light because he knew he could (an example from back a few pages in the thread).
Zoro could cut steel because he knew its "Breath".
Luffy could make an entire crowd faint because he knew he was going to get his point across.

Quote:
I dont believe reputation has anything to do with a person's Haki, as C.A. had said. Anybody can be feared through a reputation, it had nothing to do with Haki.
I wouldn't rule them out as being completely separate. A person with a title may have all the more drive to fight simply to protect that title. Although there is no "valid" use of Haki, you can look at Hannybal's unyeilding resolve while fighting Luffy as a good show of pure determination in the name of his role as Vice Warden.
To say reputation does not lend to one's Haki is a little ignorant though the same can be said for amounting reputation to Haki. A man can spend his entire life in his basement under the influence that he is a God that can smash walls and move mountains and, while he may not have any form of prestige, his mindset is what lends him strength.
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Old 2009-06-12, 02:14   Link #175
C.A.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-Haired_Shanks View Post
Now i Disagree with C.A. when you said "Whitebeard always uses Haki" because he doesn't. If he did, the people that fainted when Shanks boarded the ship, wouldn't even be able to handle being on the same ship as Whitebeard. Haki is, generally, used on a conscious level. Shanks said himself that he had to be a little threatening since it was a enemy ship (go read the chapter for yourself). The only person who used Haki on a unconscious level is Luffy, as he only used it (unconsciously) during life-threatening situations.

When Shanks scared off the Sea King and Luffy knocked the bull was different, its not necessarily a use of Haki. When Luffy knocked out the bull nobody knew what happen, which was the exact opposite of when Dark King Rayleigh used it. A person's strength/energy can be felt through eye contact also (without making a conscious effort), which is what happen. In can happen in Real life, you can staring at a person in the streets that look threatening, the moment he look at you and gives that "what the hell you lookin' at?" look, you look away because you dont want any trouble. Being in his presence didn't intimidate you, but the moment he looked at you, the intimidation is felt. Or even with a non-threatening person, like a girl you look or something.

DF users don't have Haki the way non-DF users have Haki. No DF user has been shown to be able to use Haki (noticeably anyway) except for Monkey D. Luffy and Boa Hancock. And they have "Haoushoku (Kings Deposition) Haki". So until Oda shows otherwise, I'm not buying DF-users can use Haki. None of the 11 Supernovas can use Haki, they easily plucked off by Kizaru. Yeah Eustass and Law withstood the blast of Rayleigh's Haki.. but so did Nami and Usopp.
I'll address these 3 paragraphs of yours:

I mentioned in my posts above, that Haki is not just an offensive effect, it also strengthen your spirits of your allies as a whole. It is just like an aura that strengthens yourself and people who are in your aura.

If any of Whitebeard's sons be able to stand up to Shank's powerful Haki alone? They would probably be in fear if they're to face Shanks alone. But as a group, they do not have as much fear, because they are held by each other's Haki and especially Whitebeard's Haki. They know that if Shanks were to do anything, Whitebeard would be there, their Nakama will be there for them, so they do not fear Shanks as much. Though the weaker ones still collapsed from fear.

That intimdating stare, [i]is[/is] Haki itself. That is the basic, most fundamental way of expressing your will, by visually threatening someone. Then apply my 'potential difference' example again. If you're not expressing any aggression, and the person stares back at you, of course you'd turn away. But if you're more aggressive in staring, he will be the one turning away. Even when staring at a girl, if she has a piercing look which tells you not to stare at her, you'd turn away. If she's shy and not as strong in her presence, she'll be the one turning away from your stare. If both of you are attracted to each other, you lock your eyes.

Haki is this balance of wills and intentions, who ever doesn't have the stronger intention, will turn away.

And Haki is not a thing that can only be found in certain people or types of people. It is a trait of a person's character, it is a form of mentality that affects people. Saying someone can't have Haki, is like saying someone does not have the ability to threaten or make friends. All living things can threaten or make friends, DF-users, non-DF-users, all of them can threaten or make friends, all of them can use Haki.
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Old 2009-06-12, 07:34   Link #176
Red-Haired_Shanks
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@C.A.

I'm sticking to my idea of Haki.
So lets agree to disagree.
I do agree with a few points you make, but not all.
Haki is energy/spirit or wateva you want to call it, without you cant exist so of course all people have it.
But DF users cant manifest Haki the way non-DF users can..
Just like a person with a gun cant manifest Haki like a person who doesn't use guns...
Devil Fruit users can be seen a people with guns, them being the person.. the gun being the devil fruit power
Do people fear the person or the gun, the person or the devil fruit...
Would people fear Kizaru and Aojiki if they didnt have those insane powers??
NO. cuz without it they would be normal people...
Luffy and Hancock are THE ONLY DF USERS WE KNOW THAT WE HAVE "SEEN" MANIFEST HAKI AND, ironically, these 2 (who are the ONLY DF USERS WE SEEN MANIFEST HAKI) have a "RARE and SPECIAL" KIND of HAKI.

Last edited by Red-Haired_Shanks; 2009-06-13 at 05:54.
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Old 2009-06-12, 13:35   Link #177
SMASHERJACKSON
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" so far im convinced its more of a "strength of character" type thing - that is a combo of qi, ambition, killing intent, presence, integrity. " with ambition and integrity as well as potential for growth being the fundementals from which qi killing intent and presence are formed.

this is dependant on the individuals strenght, and independant of the DF they are in possesion of

likewise the affects haki can have on someone else is dependant on that someone elses "haki" and independant of their DF [see Raleigh vs Kizaru, Dragon vs Smoker?]

this means that if a DF user was in possesion of sufficient haki the effects of a DF cannot be cancelled by the use of haki by another person on the DF user [see most top tier Logia vs cannon fodder]

for the time being im thinking the way in which it cancels DF is by shocking the DF user, with projection of killing intent/qi/presence.

BB will possibly be an exception i suspect him to hav haki only 2nd to luffy as well as his DF cancelling DF, which also makes the use of haki against him for cancelling his DF unneccassery
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Old 2009-06-14, 05:47   Link #178
C.A.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-Haired_Shanks View Post
@C.A.

I'm sticking to my idea of Haki.
So lets agree to disagree.
I do agree with a few points you make, but not all.
Haki is energy/spirit or wateva you want to call it, without you cant exist so of course all people have it.
But DF users cant manifest Haki the way non-DF users can..
Just like a person with a gun cant manifest Haki like a person who doesn't use guns...
Devil Fruit users can be seen a people with guns, them being the person.. the gun being the devil fruit power
Do people fear the person or the gun, the person or the devil fruit...
Would people fear Kizaru and Aojiki if they didnt have those insane powers??
NO. cuz without it they would be normal people...
Luffy and Hancock are THE ONLY DF USERS WE KNOW THAT WE HAVE "SEEN" MANIFEST HAKI AND, ironically, these 2 (who are the ONLY DF USERS WE SEEN MANIFEST HAKI) have a "RARE and SPECIAL" KIND of HAKI.
Well, I didn't respond because as you requested, you want to agree to disagree lol

I don't have much to say, everything I needed to say has already been posted. My description of Haki is exactly what Haki means and how it can relate to One Piece. Its not speculation, its definition, but I cannot say its exactly how Oda is using the term Haki, just that whatever Oda has shown so far, is exactly like what Haki is supposed to be.
-------------

People are scared of the Admirals because they have their abilities, completely true.

People are scared of Shanks, Rayleigh, Whitebeard, because they are incredibly powerful, that's true.

Now compare both sentences, people are scared of the Admirals and the Yonkou, because, why? Because they are powerful.

It doesn't matter whether they have abilities, are using guns, swords or just incredibly strong. They are feared just because of these strengths and powers that they have. This strength is exactly, part of their Haki.

Haki is this atmosphere that a person creates, whether he is threatening or charismatic, whether he is feared as an enemy or respected as an ally. It is the entire composition of the person's will and intention, the way his carries out his ambition. It doesn't matter what is his power, that power will become the reason why he is feared or respected, which also means that its also his reputation.

When a person's Haki is strong enough to go against another person's will, not just Devil Fruit abilities, he can shrug off a person's attacks as well, just because his will is stronger. Yes I'm refering to Sentoumaru, I dare to state that he is someone who knows how to use his Haki effectively.

Luffy was hurt by him not because Sentoumaru's Haki cancels his rubber ability, not that he cancels the Devil Fruit. Its that his will overcomes Luffy's will, which includes his ability and hurts Luffy directly. At that moment Sentoumaru had brought his Haki to a peak and Luffy's will is weaker that his, and for that Luffy's attacks can't hurt him as well. Think of Luffy's rubber skin as a shield, Sentoumaru hits so hard that the shield did not provide a significant defence at all. Think of Luffy's attack as just a simple attack, Sentoumaru was willing to go against him so much that his attack doesn't matter at all.
-------------------

Here's a very simple way to look at things, lets say Haki can be calculated, this is how it will be calculated:

Pirate A:
[Strong personality (10 points) + devil fruit ability (10 points) + superhuman strength (10 points)] x weak control of Haki (0.5 multiplier)
= 30 x 0.5
= 15 Haki points

Pirate B:
[Strong personality (10 points) + superhuman strength (10 points) + good weapon (5 points)] x moderate control of Haki (1.0 multiplier)
= 25 x 1.0
= 25 Haki points

Pirate C:
[Moderate personality (5 points) + super human strength (10 points)] x great control of Haki (2.0 multiplier)
= 15 x 2.0
= 30 Haki points

This is exactly how Haki would work if its in maths. You can see that the conditions in [square brackets], are exactly what makes up the Haki of a person, and then there's a multiplier which is determined by how good the person can control his Haki. Pirate C, even with a moderate personality, not too determined, can defeat Pirate A and B who are strong opponents.

But if Pirate A is Luffy, and he has learnt how to control his Haki, which makes his multiplier increase, he will be stronger than both Pirate B and C.

This is exactly how Haki works in One Piece.
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Old 2009-06-14, 10:51   Link #179
Red-Haired_Shanks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Well, I didn't respond because as you requested, you want to agree to disagree lol

I don't have much to say, everything I needed to say has already been posted. My description of Haki is exactly what Haki means and how it can relate to One Piece. Its not speculation, its definition, but I cannot say its exactly how Oda is using the term Haki, just that whatever Oda has shown so far, is exactly like what Haki is supposed to be.
Yeah, even though i said agree to disagree, I still wanted to hear a conclusion or something like akin to that. I'm very open-minded so my opinions are liable to change, and I wasn't really asking for a response I just asked for you to read mines.


Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
People are scared of the Admirals because they have their abilities, completely true. People are scared of Shanks, Rayleigh, Whitebeard, because they are incredibly powerful, that's true.

Now compare both sentences, people are scared of the Admirals and the Yonkou, because, why? Because they are powerful.
Agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
It doesn't matter whether they have abilities, are using guns, swords or just incredibly strong. They are feared just because of these strengths and powers that they have. This strength is exactly, part of their Haki.
See here is where I disagree.
You're saying their strength is part of their Haki. People who have DF, their strength comes from the DF, would they be able to turn to ice, shoot light beams without it? No. Its their devil fruit that gives them that ability. Even if people with Devil Fruits do have Haki, it DOESN'T MANIFEST ITSELF THE SAME WAY. I've watch every episode of one piece (with the exception of fillers) and I read the manga, Nowhere do Oda show DF users using haki the way Shanks, Rayleigh, Whitebeard, Luffy and Hancock (the last 2 having a special type of Haki). If DF users do use Haki, I would say 90% of it goes straight to their DF ability and not their Spirit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Haki is this atmosphere that a person creates, whether he is threatening or charismatic, whether he is feared as an enemy or respected as an ally. It is the entire composition of the person's will and intention, the way his carries out his ambition. It doesn't matter what is his power, that power will become the reason why he is feared or respected, which also means that its also his reputation.

When a person's Haki is strong enough to go against another person's will, not just Devil Fruit abilities, he can shrug off a person's attacks as well, just because his will is stronger. Yes I'm refering to Sentoumaru, I dare to state that he is someone who knows how to use his Haki effectively.
I think you're over-applying Haki... simple as that.
Anybody or even a animal can be feared through a reputation, nothing to do with Haki.
Haki is simply... Strong Will and Spirit.
Perfect example of how Haki works (at least to me) is in Bleach, Zaraki Kenpachi vs. Nnoitra... When Zaraki first started off, he couldn't cut Nnoitra. No matter how many times Nnoitra said he couldn't cut him Zaraki kept trying and finally cut him.
How Haki works against Devil Fruit users, Confidence and Conviction is what Haki is (to me). Even people with Devil Fruits have that, it doesn't manifest the same way as it does with people who don't... simple. Oda has ALWAYS given us a clear picture when Haki was being used (Rayleigh, Shanks, on Kuja Island, Whitebeard).
Those who we have seen Haki using Haki the way the people I have named use it, that has devil fruits, have a special type
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So i guess we're at a stalemate until Oda gives further information on it
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Old 2009-06-14, 18:30   Link #180
SMASHERJACKSON
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any got thoughts on my haki post? would like some scrutiny applied to it so i can refine it

but keep your input concise please, will only get tl;dr if u post walls of text
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