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Old 2008-08-13, 15:00   Link #41
WanderingKnight
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Lol why are people trying to defend those Spanish ballers for that? "Oh but they meant it in good light!"....
They meant it in no light. Neither good nor bad. It's a joke/homage/funny tidbit, call it what you might.

You know what? The true racists are the ones who say that, because they're trying to look like them, they're mocking them--this happens because there's some sort of inherent feeling or stereotype in Western societies that says that the East Asian physical configuration is either inferior or laughable, and thus any Westerner that does that funny face is inevitably mocking them for their inferiority. THAT's where the racism is at. Not in the team for making a stupid joke.
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Old 2008-08-13, 15:07   Link #42
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I'm curious. What does the people of Spain do when they make a joke/homage/funny tidbit for Argentinians?
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Old 2008-08-13, 15:19   Link #43
Lathdrinor
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Originally Posted by Thingle View Post
You know what? As long as the Chinese team gets beaten down every game I'd be happy because I don't like all that motherland stunt they're trying to cook up. I like to see the home team get crushed...brutally.
Care to elaborate?

The home team's always got more pressure to perform well during the Olympics (and any other sporting event, for that matter).
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Old 2008-08-13, 15:30   Link #44
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Quote:
I'm curious. What does the people of Spain do when they make a joke/homage/funny tidbit for Argentinians?
Umm, unless you want to point out that there's some sort of racial differentiation between the two societies, I'm not sure I'm following you. Plus, we have plenty of jokes about people from Galicia (a region in Spain) being rather stupid, and people in other Latin American countries have plenty of jokes about Argentinian people having a big ego. And I'd be rather surprised if someone got sensitive about them, except for the stupid nationalists with a fascist background.

Let me tell you a story: Among my group of highschool friends, we had plenty of jokes like these. Jokes about one of my friends being black, Nazi-related jokes about one of my friends being of German descent, plenty of jokes about Asians since there were a few with either Japanese or Korean descent. Heck, they've even likened me to Greek people because of my nose. And you know what? We had fun. We LAUGHED. None of us took it seriously, and I'd be surprised if any of us ended up being a fervient racist. And if anyone had taken it seriously, we probably wouldn't have been very good friends.
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Old 2008-08-13, 15:44   Link #45
Ermes Marana
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
It's a joke/homage/funny tidbit, call it what you might.

An "homage"?


You should have been writing the jokes for the team, then they might have come up with something that was actually funny.


The reason it is offensive is because... why did they think it was funny? Where is the joke? Why is pulling on your eyes, by itself, funny?


You can do things like that if you have a reason, like the new movie with Iron Man in black face.

But in this case there was no humor, and no joke. Yet they thought it was funny for some reason.
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Old 2008-08-13, 15:49   Link #46
tenken627
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Umm, unless you want to point out that there's some sort of racial differentiation between the two societies, I'm not sure I'm following you. Plus, we have plenty of jokes about people from Galicia (a region in Spain) being rather stupid, and people in other Latin American countries have plenty of jokes about Argentinian people having a big ego. And I'd be rather surprised if someone got sensitive about them, except for the stupid nationalists with a fascist background.

Let me tell you a story: Among my group of highschool friends, we had plenty of jokes like these. Jokes about one of my friends being black, Nazi-related jokes about one of my friends being of German descent, plenty of jokes about Asians since there were a few with either Japanese or Korean descent. Heck, they've even likened me to Greek people because of my nose. And you know what? We had fun. We LAUGHED. None of us took it seriously, and I'd be surprised if any of us ended up being a fervient racist. And if anyone had taken it seriously, we probably wouldn't have been very good friends.
Ah yes yes, everyone does that amongst friends and amongst their own kind.

But, would you say/do those things to people you do not personally know?

Have you called a complete German stranger a Nazi?

Do your friends tell the Greek strangers they see on the street that they have funny noses?


This is largely a non-issue, and really not that big of a deal. They shouldn't lose their 2016 bid, or anything else. But, people shouldn't justify that the intent of the Olympic Spanish Men's Basketball team was to be anything other than insulting. It is what it is.

Last edited by tenken627; 2008-08-13 at 16:03.
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Old 2008-08-13, 16:12   Link #47
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
They meant it in no light. Neither good nor bad. It's a joke/homage/funny tidbit, call it what you might.

You know what? The true racists are the ones who say that, because they're trying to look like them, they're mocking them--this happens because there's some sort of inherent feeling or stereotype in Western societies that says that the East Asian physical configuration is either inferior or laughable, and thus any Westerner that does that funny face is inevitably mocking them for their inferiority. THAT's where the racism is at. Not in the team for making a stupid joke.
Well sure, it is racist if you look at it that way... Actually , ive always been a rather strong supporter of that view. By constantly reinforcing the fact that people can be differentiated according to race, even if its to stop others from making silly comments, does strengthen racism.. It was pretty necessary not so long ago, but now i believe that type of thinking is beginning to do damage.

Though.. I guess i dont see it so much as racism, as thougtlessness and perhaps a little stupidity on part of the spanish team. Sure, it might have been without any ill intention - but people would always take offense to that type of thing. Most people would agree ( and (un)fortunately, thats what matters in this type of thing ), that there was no reason for it, and that there would definetly be a problem or two , whether it was harmless or not. people just arnt that nice

Well, whatever the initial intention was it wont matter much now will it? Its the reaction that matters now. lets just hope it doesnt turn too icky, and we can get on with the games in peace.
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Old 2008-08-13, 16:28   Link #48
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Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
This is largely a non-issue, and really not that big of a deal. They shouldn't lose their 2016 bid, or anything else. But, people shouldn't justify that the intent of the Olympic Spanish Men's Basketball team was to be anything other than insulting. It is what it is.
I don't know if it was their intent to be insulting or racist (though it may come across that way), but I find it embarrassing more than anything. I think it's being blown out of proportion just a little bit, but it still wasn't a cool thing to do. I wasn't offended by it so much as I was embarrassed for Spain--here are these grown men showcasing their ignorance. I'm sure they're not terrible people or anything, and I doubt they meant to cause this much trouble, but it really was in poor taste. It was a stupid thing to do, but people should just move on. There are more important things to worry about.

EDIT: I take it back. After seeing it again, it was pretty damn insulting.

Ignore me, guys.
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Last edited by blue skies; 2008-08-13 at 19:29.
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Old 2008-08-13, 16:51   Link #49
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Originally Posted by Ermes Marana View Post
The reason it is offensive is because... why did they think it was funny? Where is the joke? Why is pulling on your eyes, by itself, funny?

You can do things like that if you have a reason, like the new movie with Iron Man in black face.

But in this case there was no humor, and no joke. Yet they thought it was funny for some reason.
Personally, I am hoping that the Spanish team offers up an apology photo were the team is shown pulling rickshaws/rickshas (carrying the Chinese team, preferably, but at least carrying chinese people) with a caption underneath that reads "We So Sarry". Or something equally as insane and over-the-top. At least then, the photo will be so crazy that racism should not be an issue. Sanity, maybe. But not racism.

Joking aside, this photo was not malicious in its intent, so it is not racist. Rather it is simply a stupid photo that exists without context, so it only stands to reason that many can become offened by the image, but without context there is no real reason to think it is meant to be offensive. Just stupid.
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Old 2008-08-13, 17:40   Link #50
tenken627
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Originally Posted by blue skies View Post
I don't know if it was their intent to be insulting or racist (though it may come across that way), but I find it embarrassing more than anything. I think it's being blown out of proportion just a little bit, but it still wasn't a cool thing to do. I wasn't offended by it so much as I was embarrassed for Spain--here are these grown men showcasing their ignorance. I'm sure they're not terrible people or anything, and I doubt they meant to cause this much trouble, but it really was in poor taste. It was a stupid thing to do, but people should just move on. There are more important things to worry about.
Well, they probably did not mean for it to be hateful, they probably were just having a moment of self-amusement. But, it's insulting because it was at the expense of those of the Chinese race (the Chinese wouldn't be amused themselves, at best, it's more puzzling).

And they're probably not terrible people. Many great people in the world have had some form of prejudices about other people. Mahatma Gandhi was a great, compassionate, intelligent man, but some of the comments he made about black people are eye-popping.

I agree, it's just a lack of foresight on their part, to not realize that something done by an Olympic team would eventually be brought to the attention of the world.
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Old 2008-08-13, 18:27   Link #51
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I'd have an easier time taking this for a joke if it weren't for the fact that the Spanish are some of the most notorious racists in Europe.

http://www.euroresidentes.com/Blogs/...-football.html

Pretty well-known incident. Masses of people calling a black man a monkey just doesn't belong in this millennium. It's quite backwards, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
They meant it in no light. Neither good nor bad. It's a joke/homage/funny tidbit, call it what you might.

You know what? The true racists are the ones who say that, because they're trying to look like them, they're mocking them--this happens because there's some sort of inherent feeling or stereotype in Western societies that says that the East Asian physical configuration is either inferior or laughable, and thus any Westerner that does that funny face is inevitably mocking them for their inferiority. THAT's where the racism is at. Not in the team for making a stupid joke.
You give the most common reasoning for defending racism--that the racist ones are the people who interpret it as racism, and it's just completely failed logic.
If you want to extrapolate, it's like how people say that since black people call each other niggers all the time, everyone else should be able to as well. True in practice? No.
I truly fail to see how imitating/mocking another race could possibly be seen as anything but insulting. Under what circumstances in history or even daily life is it acceptable to do something like this? Do we still allow white actors to put on blackface casually while fumbling around looking like idiots? (don't bring up Tropic Thunder please, they had a very specific aim with that movie). Besides, what's the definition of a racist joke? It's a joke... that's based on race. The end.
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Old 2008-08-13, 19:23   Link #52
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There is no other way to interpret that than making fun of asians in general.
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Old 2008-08-13, 20:01   Link #53
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@WanderingKnight

Their intentions, as you say, were probably not to offend the Chinese.

However, mimicking a certain aspects of appearance can be taken offensively, and it's understandable. Take for example, imagine what would happen if a team from Argentina, playing an African team, took a photo of them pushing their noses in, and sticking out their lips to make it fat looking? Regardless of their intentions, it's an expression of stereotype (whether it's a true stereotype or not), and many african descent black citizens of the world would likely take great offense to it.

I wouldn't take offense to such gestures, but I can understand why people would.

It's sorta like that Abercrombie & Fitch T-shirt that depicted two Chinese slave workers working in the mines in the Old West, with the tag "Two Wongs don't make a White". A&F figured it's good natured humor, but the Chinese community found it offensive. And understandably so.
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Old 2008-08-13, 20:13   Link #54
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Let's try to hear the Spanish Basketball Team's side of the story. If they were to be believed, I really think they're dense but I myself don't find it really offensive at all, just stupid.

Some people really need to hold their horses here.
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Old 2008-08-13, 20:18   Link #55
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I'm spanish myself, and I just can say that is how spanish people are, brutes, ignorants and racists.

Of course this is not 100% of the people, but sadly many of them are like that.

Another example would be when in 2004 Luis Aragones, ex-coach for Spain's national football team, during one training session told Jose Antonio Reyes: "Some players have to see things more clearly. Tell that black shit that you are better than him." Refering with this comment to Thierry Henry, which was teammate of Reyes in Arsenal, and many thought of Henry as one of the best players of the world at that moment.

This was heard by the press and was a very delicate situation. Aragones later on apologized publicly to Henry and the black community worldwide. And he alleged he wasn't racist and that his comments were said in the midst of the training to motivate Reyes and nothing else.

Aragones was fined with 3000 euros by the Spanish Football Federation in 2005.

So this type of situations are rather common to happen on the spanish society sadly
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Old 2008-08-13, 21:27   Link #56
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This is utterly ridiculous that people find this offensive. Did they say anything bad about Chinese people and their eyes? No. Did they ever say that they were intentionally mocking the Chinise? No. There exists no expressed racism in this photo.

And if you consider this little joke by the Spanish team to be stupid, fine, but I personally do not. Guys make these kind of jokes all the time. There are actually very few guys that I have ever seen react badly to such jokes, and usually they are crazy or have a bad past (I've met a few Armenians that would crack if you even mentioned the Armenian genocide). Seriously do not BS me here and say that you never make these kind of silly little jokes with people around you.

I love it, people chastising others for the things they do themselves. I admit I have made jokes about other races, including my own which include German, Russian, Mexican, Arabic, and eastern-European Jew.

Personally one of those jokes that people may consider inappropriate by political correct standards is the following:

"I too know the pains of the Holocaust. I lost a family member in it, he was my uncle. He got drunk and fell off the watch tower. So it goes."

I personally find that funny and do not find it offensive to both me as a German and me as a Jew. This Spanish team gesture is in the same category.

Anyways to stay on the topic, I view this as simply a way that the Spanish team is pumping themselves up to play the Chinese. Has anyone ever seen the tennis player Novak Djokovich do his impressions of other players? It is just light hearted fun. If you can't create a distinction between their actions and racist people's actions, I am truly scarred of where this world is heading towards in terms of political correctness.

All I am asking is for people to come out of the closet and not jump to conclusions. The Spanish team already expressed that this was light hearted fun as well and even said that many of their best friends are Chinese. Any further response to something that really did not even warrant such a public outcry should not even happen.

@Wanderingknight

Your example of Argentinians being arrogant or whatever is actually a very real stereotype in Mexico. They think of Argentinians like many short-sighted people in the U.S. see the French. But I am sure you guys have your own things for us .
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Old 2008-08-13, 21:43   Link #57
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Why am I reminded of this?

Not defending them or anything (defending stupid people is just...stupid?). But I guess its true though - most people seem to get offended by even the slightest hint of racism/stereotype/whatever, so even if it wasn't their intent to offend people, they should not have done that.
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Old 2008-08-13, 22:14   Link #58
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Guys make these kind of jokes all the time. There are actually very few guys that I have ever seen react badly to such jokes, and usually they are crazy or have a bad past (I've met a few Armenians that would crack if you even mentioned the Armenian genocide). Seriously do not BS me here and say that you never make these kind of silly little jokes with people around you.
Well, there is a difference between a joke made between friends or schoolmates, and a joke told to the world (i.e. if this photo was just for the Spanish team as a collectible (so to say), then there would be nothing wrong with the photo, but the fact that the photo seems to be a delibarate post from the team, means that the photo has to be anaylyzed to understand the original creators intentions). Generally speaking, A joke told in confidence will never be fully acceptable to an audience at large, and that is the problem with the Spanish Team's photo.

Added to that, to be a 'funny' racist joke, you need to add a certain level of zanyness (I mentioned rikshas, earlier), that takes the joke from its stereotype origins, and bring it up to a level of sheer lunacy that surpasses the mere stereotype origins and becomes something new and unique that can be accesible and considered 'funny' by many.

So, this simplistic photo was stupid, but not stupid enough, which is what a joke concerning racism must be in order to not be taken literally.
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Old 2008-08-13, 22:48   Link #59
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I just have a hard time believing Spain is intentionally trying to insult the hosts of the Olympics. I mean, what's the point of that? I mean, let's say they are closet racists (all of them). What do they gain from it?

I think it is still far more likely that they simply don't know that it's offensive. Trust me, having been to different parts of the world, I've heard and see things regarding to race, sex, and sexual orientation that we would find deeply offensive in the West.
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Old 2008-08-14, 00:00   Link #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
This is utterly ridiculous that people find this offensive. Did they say anything bad about Chinese people and their eyes? No. Did they ever say that they were intentionally mocking the Chinise? No. There exists no expressed racism in this photo.

And if you consider this little joke by the Spanish team to be stupid, fine, but I personally do not. Guys make these kind of jokes all the time. There are actually very few guys that I have ever seen react badly to such jokes, and usually they are crazy or have a bad past (I've met a few Armenians that would crack if you even mentioned the Armenian genocide). Seriously do not BS me here and say that you never make these kind of silly little jokes with people around you.

I love it, people chastising others for the things they do themselves. I admit I have made jokes about other races, including my own which include German, Russian, Mexican, Arabic, and eastern-European Jew.

Personally one of those jokes that people may consider inappropriate by political correct standards is the following:

"I too know the pains of the Holocaust. I lost a family member in it, he was my uncle. He got drunk and fell off the watch tower. So it goes."

I personally find that funny and do not find it offensive to both me as a German and me as a Jew. This Spanish team gesture is in the same category.

Anyways to stay on the topic, I view this as simply a way that the Spanish team is pumping themselves up to play the Chinese. Has anyone ever seen the tennis player Novak Djokovich do his impressions of other players? It is just light hearted fun. If you can't create a distinction between their actions and racist people's actions, I am truly scarred of where this world is heading towards in terms of political correctness.

All I am asking is for people to come out of the closet and not jump to conclusions. The Spanish team already expressed that this was light hearted fun as well and even said that many of their best friends are Chinese. Any further response to something that really did not even warrant such a public outcry should not even happen.

@Wanderingknight

Your example of Argentinians being arrogant or whatever is actually a very real stereotype in Mexico. They think of Argentinians like many short-sighted people in the U.S. see the French. But I am sure you guys have your own things for us .
Just because I have a few black friends does not make it okay for me to call people niggers. You live in California, why don't you try going around and saying something like that in public?

And you have some seriously idiotic friends, if they make fun of genocides. It's not funny. It shouldn't be. Since you're 16 and still a child, it's excusable, but I'm sorry, there is a real world out there, and you can and will lose your job and social standing if something like this is made in a professional setting.

Can you imagine if LeBron James appeared in the same kind of ad? First of all, this ad would NEVER appear in the United States, so it'd have to be a foreign ad. You know what would happen to him, of course. The second US media get wind of it, he'd lose all of his US endorsements not to mention a sizable number of fans.

So, before you pull out the cultural relativism defense, go and find out a bit more about Spain first, and understand that racism is an accepted fact there, but this is the global age, and it simply does not stand well.
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