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Old 2008-08-14, 01:39   Link #61
Reckoner
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Now I must say, people are blowing my points out of proportion and are not even understanding what I wrote. So if I did a bad post, I apologize. However, I hope I can clear up some things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Generally speaking, A joke told in confidence will never be fully acceptable to an audience at large, and that is the problem with the Spanish Team's photo.

Added to that, to be a 'funny' racist joke, you need to add a certain level of zanyness (I mentioned rikshas, earlier), that takes the joke from its stereotype origins, and bring it up to a level of sheer lunacy that surpasses the mere stereotype origins and becomes something new and unique that can be accesible and considered 'funny' by many.

So, this simplistic photo was stupid, but not stupid enough, which is what a joke concerning racism must be in order to not be taken literally.
You bring up a good point. This is on a world stage and of course there are going to be disagreements. Even with something like the Harry Potter books, there are sects of feminists and Christians who dislike it. Christians are obvious why, but feminists because the book supposedly portrays females as the clumsy sex and men as the brave one. (ex. Hermione always freaking out in real situations).

However, my point was that there was no expressed racism in this photo that we can deduct from it. I do not see malicious intent. People are making too big of a deal about it. It is fair to ask questions, but jumping the gun and calling them idiots and racists is a little too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papaya View Post
Just because I have a few black friends does not make it okay for me to call people niggers. You live in California, why don't you try going around and saying something like that in public?

And you have some seriously idiotic friends, if they make fun of genocides. It's not funny. It shouldn't be. Since you're 16 and still a child, it's excusable, but I'm sorry, there is a real world out there, and you can and will lose your job and social standing if something like this is made in a professional setting.
Calling black people niggers is racist, and in most cases has malicious intent. It is something you just don't do. As I said above this photo does not express malicious intent. They didn't do anything outwardly racist, it is just people extrapolating.

The person who made that genocide joke was not a friend of mine, it was a joke my brother heard in UCLA from a guest speaker who was talking to an auditorium of about two or three hundred people. And please do not lecture me about such things as if I am ignorant of such facts. I am well aware of the deep political correctness in the U.S. which I personally think is damaging our country's freedom. I am not brave enough to test it out at all.

Last edited by Skyfall; 2008-08-14 at 12:53.
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Old 2008-08-14, 01:48   Link #62
Ermes Marana
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It seems like the only ones blowing this out of proportion are the ones defending it.

It was offensive. There wasn't even a joke involved, they just pulled their eyes to the side with no reason or humor.

Most of all, it was stupid. I doubt the athletes intended to insult anyone, but they were stupid and the person who came up with the idea was really stupid.

However, it is no big deal and will soon be forgotten (except by the people who want to defend it).
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Old 2008-08-14, 02:38   Link #63
tripperazn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
this photo does not express malicious intent. They didn't do anything outwardly racist, it is just people extrapolating.
Now, this seems to be the crux of your argument, but you haven't backed it up at all that I can see. You repeatedly say that you do not see any malicious intent, and that is the key word there. Just because it isn't offensive in your eyes, does NOT make it inoffensive to others.

Please don't simply defend with what the players have to say for themselves after being crucified by the global media. Faking ignorance is clearly not going to cut it. Especially since we have one person from Spain and another from Portugal personally testifying that the Spanish are not the most racially tolerant people at the moment. Racial integration isn't something that comes within a few decades. I suspect that Spain, like many European countries, are relatively new to mass immigration. As a US citizen, you should know that integration isn't complete in a country that has been strongly multi-racial since it's inception. Even now, many cities like SF are divided into ethnic neighborhoods.
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Old 2008-08-14, 09:19   Link #64
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What I am wondering is why this happened with Spain and now is known worldwide...but what happened with this?:

http://estaticos01.jjoo.marca.com/20...18698005_1.jpg

I don't remember anyone saying anything about this in that time.

Now to the point, did you guys know that the photo was for an AD?

The Spain-Chinese Connection
It turns out, as we spoke upon in an earlier article, that the ad was done for a Chinese company. In fact, it was Li Ning’s sports apparel company, which is apparently huge in China. According to this, Li Ning’s company has a sponsorship contract with the Spanish National Team until 2012, so the ties between the Spanish National Team and China go further than a simple marketing shot, as many may assume.

And what's more, the ones who decided how the photo and the poses should be WERE CHINESE. I think people are not being fair. Spain is racist, I agree, like EVERY COUNTRY. No more, no less.
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Old 2008-08-14, 11:27   Link #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
Now, this seems to be the crux of your argument, but you haven't backed it up at all that I can see. You repeatedly say that you do not see any malicious intent, and that is the key word there. Just because it isn't offensive in your eyes, does NOT make it inoffensive to others.

Please don't simply defend with what the players have to say for themselves after being crucified by the global media. Faking ignorance is clearly not going to cut it. Especially since we have one person from Spain and another from Portugal personally testifying that the Spanish are not the most racially tolerant people at the moment.
I don't know really if the Spanish people are as intolerant as these people are saying they are. You hear and see different things in life, but it is difficult to generalize about such things. They may be, but still we should not just generalize that all Spanish are intolerant so the Spanish basketball team is intolerant.

And ok, fair enough. What may not seem offensive to me is offensive to others. I don't see it, perhaps you guys do. But it really is impossible to know what their intentions were for sure, unless you truly believe the words of the basketball team.

Just to make things clear, I'm not saying that the basketball team can't be racist, I'm just saying how "I" don't see the clear racism in this photo. For all I know we could be looking at some of the most intolerant people in the world.

@wide12

That is certainly interesting, wouldn't something like this usually be brought up?
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Old 2008-08-14, 11:39   Link #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wide12 View Post
Now to the point, did you guys know that the photo was for an AD?

The Spain-Chinese Connection
It turns out, as we spoke upon in an earlier article, that the ad was done for a Chinese company. In fact, it was Li Ning’s sports apparel company, which is apparently huge in China. According to this, Li Ning’s company has a sponsorship contract with the Spanish National Team until 2012, so the ties between the Spanish National Team and China go further than a simple marketing shot, as many may assume.

And what's more, the ones who decided how the photo and the poses should be WERE CHINESE. I think people are not being fair. Spain is racist, I agree, like EVERY COUNTRY. No more, no less.
Actually, this is wrong.

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/bei...yhoo&type=lgns

The company that wanted them to slant their eyes was Seur, a Spanish courier company.

Li Ning is just one of the many sponsers of their team, but they were not the ones doing the advertisement in question. Or telling them how to pose. That was strictly Spanish.
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Old 2008-08-14, 12:13   Link #67
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You give the most common reasoning for defending racism--that the racist ones are the people who interpret it as racism, and it's just completely failed logic.
No, it's not (what kind of phrase is "failed logic" anyways? Does logic want to achieve anything?). In order to automatically interpret anything related to race as offensive there must be an inherent idea that there's a clear non-physical differentiation between the two races. It's the same issue with the word "tolerance", which is in and of itself a pretty poor choice--but a purposeful one for the ones who instated it. White people must "tolerate" other races. They're outsiders, but they must tolerate them invading their space. That's the general idea behind political correctness. The fact that you can't call black people black and you have to call them "African-American" to be politically correct when, in truth, they have absolutely no relationship with Africa at all and should be simply called "American" is a clear sign of this. Same with "Asian-Americans", "Latinos", etc.

Quote:
If you want to extrapolate, it's like how people say that since black people call each other niggers all the time, everyone else should be able to as well. True in practice? No.
That has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand, and to use your own wording, it's a completely failed analogy. The problem with the word "nigger" is that, through decades and decades of isolation, the community of black people in the US has gotten to the point of forming a counter-culture of their own. In the same manner they were not accepted for centuries in the US, they will not accept "other people" within them. It's a natural (and racist) evolution in a country which has had (and still has) a lot of problems regarding racial segregation. Yes, they are being racists, but there is a clear reason behind the apparition of such a counter-culture.

Quote:
I truly fail to see how imitating/mocking another race could possibly be seen as anything but insulting.
The keyword here is "mocking". YOU are the one giving that interpretation.

Quote:
Besides, what's the definition of a racist joke? It's a joke... that's based on race. The end.
Look, you can't deny the color of the skin. Black people have black skin, East Asian people have slanted eyes, most people from Latin America have black hair and brownish skin, and most people in Europe have white skin. You know what is racism? Racism is making a differentiation that actually matters. Jokes don't matter. Stupid policies like having a minimum quota of students for "ethnic minorities" in a classroom, the kind of policies you find in your country, do matter.

Quote:

However, mimicking a certain aspects of appearance can be taken offensively, and it's understandable. Take for example, imagine what would happen if a team from Argentina, playing an African team, took a photo of them pushing their noses in, and sticking out their lips to make it fat looking? Regardless of their intentions, it's an expression of stereotype (whether it's a true stereotype or not), and many african descent black citizens of the world would likely take great offense to it.

I wouldn't take offense to such gestures, but I can understand why people would.
I understand how some people would. However, my opinion of those people would not be very high.

Quote:
Why am I reminded of this?
Thank you for quoting P&T. People should watch that show more often.
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Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2008-08-14 at 12:35.
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Old 2008-08-14, 12:39   Link #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
Actually, this is wrong.

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/bei...yhoo&type=lgns

The company that wanted them to slant their eyes was Seur, a Spanish courier company.

Li Ning is just one of the many sponsers of their team, but they were not the ones doing the advertisement in question. Or telling them how to pose. That was strictly Spanish.
I have read that and it seems that you are correct, but in the photo it seems they are wearing the CHINESE jersey http://www.basketballinspain.com/spa...-team-a72.html .

It's obvious that's for the advertisement, not for racist purporses. The point here might be that making slant eyes is considered racist in some countries (U.S.A ? U.K?) however, on the contrary, it doesn't mean anything at all in other countries.

What's more, the only ones who are talking about all this racism thing are not even chinese (nor asian). I still haven't read anything from China about this matter, so I don't why would there be a problem.
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Old 2008-08-14, 12:52   Link #69
tenken627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wide12 View Post
I have read that and it seems that you are correct, but in the photo it seems they are wearing the CHINESE jersey http://www.basketballinspain.com/spa...-team-a72.html .

It's obvious that's for the advertisement, not for racist purporses. The point here might be that making slant eyes is considered racist in some countries (U.S.A ? U.K?) however, on the contrary, it doesn't mean anything at all in other countries.

What's more, the only ones who are talking about all this racism thing are not even chinese (nor asian). I still haven't read anything from China about this matter, so I don't why would there be a problem.
Yeah, the jerseys they are wearing are their official Olympics jersey.


What do you want the Chinese to do? Make an official statement? Front page on the China Daily? The media is controlled largely by government as well.

But, if you go to Chinese message boards and blogs (and the Chinese are huge forum and blog addicts), it's being talked about.


It's not a gesture of hate, it's just a joke to amuse the people of Spain at the expense of the Chinese done in bad taste. Even Pau Gasol understands it.
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Old 2008-08-14, 12:58   Link #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post

Stupid policies like having a minimum quota of students for "ethnic minorities" in a classroom, the kind of policies you find in your country, do matter.
.
Oh, i dont think theres any need to simplify such policies by branding them as simple and superficial 'anti-racism' measures. If it were just for that, I'm rather sure they wouldnt be in place at all. I'm not sure about the US, but in my country ( which has plenty of similiar laws ) , laws like those are in place for a lot of reasons, some of which are pretty unethical If, like you said, racism was just 'jokes', there would really not be any problem at all. Unfortunately, thats not the case, or at least, it was most certainly not the case not very long ago.. Sure, by warning people about stereotypes we find offensive, we do strengthen them in a way. Still, the world simply isnt accepting enough to let go of this.. Like said above, were still very much in a stage of global integration.

Look in the end, whether its actually 'racist' or not doesnt matter. It couldve been about a number of things, and it wouldnt have mattered. It was just a stupid idea that would upset a lot of people, and will be remembered as such, come on, no matter how much anyone tries to justify it, its obvious that people would be upset about it. Whether theyre narrow-minded and silly to be upset or not in the first place is not the issue, the fact that they did is - its a sensitive issue today for whatever reason.
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Old 2008-08-14, 13:01   Link #71
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Quote:
.
Oh, i dont think theres any need to simplify such policies by branding them as simple and superficial 'anti-racism' measures.
I think you didn't understand my point. What I actually meant is that those "anti-racism policies" were actually racist in and of themselves.
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Old 2008-08-14, 13:13   Link #72
oompa loompa
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I think you didn't understand my point. What I actually meant is that those "anti-racism policies" were actually racist in and of themselves.
No, i actually agree with you - it does promote racism in a way. I've seen plenty of what policies like that can do. What my point was, is that theyre in place based on 'racial' division only by coincidence. Lets change the scenario, lets say, instead of division according to race, there were divisions according to sects of a religion - and it just so happens that a number of these sects are somewhat economically backwards. Those same quotas would exist. Whats more, any ruling government would try and make these factions content ( itll help them stay in power longer..), so would definetly introduce policies to aid minorities.
I think were arguing about two different things. I agree that these policies which are supposed to be 'anti-racist' can be racist. What I'm saying on the other hand, is that those policies are not in place simply to fight racism. infact, its just coincidence more than anything that the divisions in this scenario are by race at all. Policies like that are stupid if the only intention was to fight racism, but thats just not the case
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Old 2008-08-14, 13:19   Link #73
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Quote:
Lets change the scenario, lets say, instead of division according to race, there were divisions according to sects of a religion - and it just so happens that a number of these sects are somewhat economically backwards. Those same quotas would exist. Whats more, any ruling government would try and make these factions content ( itll help them stay in power longer..), so would definetly introduce policies to aid minorities.
Then they're even worse than I thought. They're equating race to economic status!
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Old 2008-08-14, 13:25   Link #74
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Then they're even worse than I thought. They're equating race to economic status!
Unfortunately, like i said above, not very long ago that was the case, and thats when the laws were introduced. There most certainly were economic divisions according to race, among many other things. The fact of the matter is, when economic divisions like those exist, its terribly difficult to break out of them . politically, governments try to gain support and face by giving provisions to minorities - a lot of governments do, and there is point to it. Not just that, treating minorities badly is looked down very badly internationally, and does actually affect relations between countries, i.e India and Sri Lanka with respect to the LTTE.The third reason is aiding integration and discouraging racism - which, when racism is/was prevelant, certainly did work. In fact, I'm sure there are plenty more reasons. Policies like those arnt nearly as stupid as they seem.
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Old 2008-08-14, 13:33   Link #75
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Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post

It's not a gesture of hate, it's just a joke to amuse the people of Spain at the expense of the Chinese done in bad taste. Even Pau Gasol understands it.
No. It's wasn't done to amuse the people of Spain. :

“One of our sponsors asked us to pose with a ‘wink’ to our participation in Beijing, we made an oriental expression with our eyes. We felt it was something appropriate, and that it would be interpreted as an affectionate gesture,” Calderon wrote on his ElMundo.es blog. “Without a doubt, some …didn’t see it that way.”

What evidence do you have? Why would Spanish people be amused?
By the way you still haven't comment on what I said:
This is not considered as an act of racism in a lot of countries. That's what I think you fail to understand.
What I am trying to say it's that they did not mean any offense, nor they thought it could be an act of racism.

I do understand that in the U.S.A , you'd see this as 100% racism, because it seems that's what people do there when they try to make fun of an asian person.
But that doesn't happen in other countries.

I am not saying that what they do was good nor bad. I just think they are being utterly criticised, and it's not fair to them. I mean I'd have understood if the newspaper just talked about this matter, but they didn't even question what their intention was, and moreover, they even brought up some other cases that happened in Spain. From what I see, they intended from the beggining to "attack, destroy, and kill".

Some more info:

“We don’t think this is an insulting gesture to the Chinese,” said Frank Zhang, Li Ning’s director of government and public affairs. “In fact, the gesture shows that the Spanish team is so humorous, relaxing and cute. They sat around a dragon pattern, which we think showed respect to the Chinese.

Last edited by wide12; 2008-08-14 at 13:36. Reason: forgot to add some info
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Old 2008-08-14, 13:33   Link #76
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Bad judgement by the Spain. Racist interpretation by everyone else.

I would like to believe that no one is stupid enough to mock another culture preceding the Olympic event.

But if it was a "racist" picture then they are retarded and a bunch of idiots.



EDIT: my friend just inform me that they refuse to officially apologize. t(o_ot)

Last edited by bbduece; 2008-08-14 at 14:27.
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Old 2008-08-14, 13:58   Link #77
tenken627
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Originally Posted by wide12 View Post
No. It's wasn't done to amuse the people of Spain. :

“One of our sponsors asked us to pose with a ‘wink’ to our participation in Beijing, we made an oriental expression with our eyes. We felt it was something appropriate, and that it would be interpreted as an affectionate gesture,” Calderon wrote on his ElMundo.es blog. “Without a doubt, some …didn’t see it that way.”

What evidence do you have? Why would Spanish people be amused?
By the way you still haven't comment on what I said:
This is not considered as an act of racism in a lot of countries. That's what I think you fail to understand.
What I am trying to say it's that they did not mean any offense, nor they thought it could be an act of racism.
Do we really have to go through this?

"It was something like supposed to be funny or something but never offensive in any way," said Spain center Pau Gasol

http://www.startribune.com/sports/ol...D3aPc:_Yyc:aUU

Funny = amusing

So why is it funny?

It's not racism, but the sponser intended it to be funny.



Quote:
Originally Posted by wide12 View Post
This is not considered as an act of racism in a lot of countries. That's what I think you fail to understand.
When did I say that this was racism? I specifically said that this wasn't a gesture of hate. I just said it was in bad taste.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wide12 View Post

Some more info:

“We don’t think this is an insulting gesture to the Chinese,” said Frank Zhang, Li Ning’s director of government and public affairs. “In fact, the gesture shows that the Spanish team is so humorous, relaxing and cute. They sat around a dragon pattern, which we think showed respect to the Chinese.


And of course the Li Ning spokesperson will try to do PR work. That's what he's paid for.



On the popular Sina.com website in China, many people were angered by the photo. "This gesture is a way of laughing at Asians," one person wrote. "It's racial discrimination for sure," added another.

But others said they didn't understand what all the fuss was about. On another website, one person said: "I don't get it. What's supposed to be offensive? Is it that badly drawn dragon in the middle?"


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...ijing2008/home



Like I said before, at the very best, it's more puzzling to Chinese people. It's not like they are laughing at the picture, even though it's supposed to be funny. It's not amusing to them, just puzzling. So who is it supposed to be funny for?
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Old 2008-08-14, 14:21   Link #78
bbduece
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Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
Do we really have to go through this?

"It was something like supposed to be funny or something but never offensive in any way," said Spain center Pau Gasol

http://www.startribune.com/sports/ol...D3aPc:_Yyc:aUU

Funny = amusing

So why is it funny?

It's not racism, but the sponser intended it to be funny.





When did I say that this was racism? I specifically said that this wasn't a gesture of hate. I just said it was in bad taste.






And of course the Li Ning spokesperson will try to do PR work. That's what he's paid for.



On the popular Sina.com website in China, many people were angered by the photo. "This gesture is a way of laughing at Asians," one person wrote. "It's racial discrimination for sure," added another.

But others said they didn't understand what all the fuss was about. On another website, one person said: "I don't get it. What's supposed to be offensive? Is it that badly drawn dragon in the middle?"


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...ijing2008/home



Like I said before, at the very best, it's more puzzling to Chinese people. It's not like they are laughing at the picture, even though it's supposed to be funny. It's not amusing to them, just puzzling. So who is it supposed to be funny for?
They continue to refuse to officially apologize is a sign of racism. No apology, just "bad judgement on our part". WTF is that? they need to man it up and apologize if people are offended. They are lucky; the PLA should destroy them.
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Old 2008-08-14, 14:26   Link #79
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WTF is that? they need to man it up and apologize if people are offended.
What? Why? They need to do nothing. If I say "fuck those fucking niggers", I'm a racist idiot, but I definitely don't need to apologize. However, especially in the US people seem to have a problem with ignoring idiots. There is something we like to call freedom of speech, which (un?)fortunately also includes the freedom of saying any kind of idiocy we want. Which, in a sane enough society, should paint anyone who says idiotic things as *gasp* actual idiots.

The quoted P&T episode hit the nail on the head with the "insensibility training" suggestion.
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Old 2008-08-14, 14:30   Link #80
tenken627
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Originally Posted by bbduece View Post
They continue to refuse to officially apologize is a sign of racism. No apology, just "bad judgement on our part". WTF is that? they need to man it up and apologize if people are offended. They are lucky; the PLA should destroy them.
I don't think they have to make an official apology from the team. And it's not like they thought of the idea in the first place. It was the people at Seur.

And some of the players have already apologized, especially the face of the team, Pau Gasol.

No need to blow it up even more.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
What? Why? They need to do nothing. If I say "fuck those fucking niggers", I'm a racist idiot, but I definitely don't need to apologize. However, especially in the US people seem to have a problem with ignoring idiots. There is something we like to call free of speech, which (un?)fortunately also includes the freedom of saying any kind of idiocy we want. Which, in a sane enough society, should paint anyone who says idiotic things as *gasp* actual idiots.

The quoted P&T episode hit the nail on the head with the "insensibility training" suggestion.
Why such disdain for everything US? You have to remember that the US is the most diverse country in the world, so there will be such huge variances in ideas and beliefs. Anytime you hear something about the US, it's really only a proportion of the nation as a whole.

You're 19, still so young. You are obviously an intelligent person, but lighten up, it's a shame to be so cynical about the world and its issues at your age.
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