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View Poll Results: Macross Frontier - Episode 19 Rating
Perfect 10 39 35.45%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 37 33.64%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 16 14.55%
7 out of 10 : Good 10 9.09%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.73%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 1.82%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 3 2.73%
Voters: 110. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-08-16, 07:11   Link #201
kilroy0097
Michiko Malandro = Sexy
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaiHikari View Post
Grace didn't engineer a professional. You can't engineer a professional, when you're a pro, you get credit for what you do and chose to do. Why can't Grace engineer Ranka to be responsible to her fans?
Hehe. Milli Vanilli. I rest my case. (NO talent Huge success)
Edit add: T.A.T.u another example of pure marketing success with very little actual talent.

Edit add x2: I thought I should just add that I believe Sheryl's success was indeed more talent than marketing. I was just point out two examples where 20% talent and 80% marketing can also make a hit.

Quote:
I was disputing Kilroy's post that Ranka's popularity started with the movie and I pointed out it was really Galia 4. We have digressed.
Yea we are going to have to agree to disagree about this one. While Ranka would not have soared up the charts like she has without Galia 4 as a turning point, this was not the beginning of her professional career. Her beginning would have been the fan service carrot dancing job she did. As soon as you have a manager or you are getting paid for your performance your professional career has started. So you can say that directly after singing that fateful song in the mall she became a professional. After which her part in the movie was her first major role or job which is what put her in the spot light and really started her fame. Second was her record production that was becoming popular before Gaila 4 thanks to her movie role. Third would have been her first concert (which was sold out BTW) but instead became Gaila 4 which more than anything was a lucky break career wise. Then finally her Live concert was Fourth and that secured her fame. This fame just sky rocketed after that with both Aimo incidents.

Last edited by kilroy0097; 2008-08-16 at 10:20.
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Old 2008-08-16, 09:18   Link #202
daimonth
Kohaku Law Firm
 
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I think he was talking more about Sheryls behaviour than her actual success. I don't think you can deny that Sheryl has, thus far, been very professional to her work, pushing herself to the limit to do her job. Also I don't think it would be an accurate portrayal of Sheryl to say that all her success came from marketing. Undoubtfully Grace has given her an opportunity to success, but large amount of her success also came from her dedication and talent. It has been shown both in the show and in her blog that she writes her own songs (Ranka on the other hand has specifically said that she isn't good in that department.) and she sang those with success. From Nyan Furo: Infinity topped Galatic Chart for 8 weeks straight. Iteza gogo Kyuuji don't be late topped the chat for 17 weeks straight, setting a record. Diamond Crevasse acknowledged as the no 1 tear jerking song. It is clear in their portrayal of Sheryl that she isn't all about marketing.
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Old 2008-08-16, 10:11   Link #203
Seifall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
I thought that part itself is pretty obvious. After all, just look at the favorite character poll, compare the numbers, and there you have it.

Ranka fans were hit by pressure, plain and simple. Bottom line, there are far more Sheryl fans than Ranka ones. Regardless of their position on the shipping wars, that itself is a fact.

- Tak
just look at the favorite character poll,. Well here you're right... I even lose the habit to check out how many points Ranka gained today...Even Klan is more popular....

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_s_6 View Post
That's their choice to disappear, for whatever reason. That doesn't change the fact that they posted nasty in the other threads. One could only guess why they're no longer posting. I thought I just don't see them since I blocked them from my view.

The reason Sheryl fans are in full force right now is because we see that she's finally starting to get back into the story, and is still graceful in doing so. And more and more fans are getting tired of Ranka's high school crush + plain voice + cute face (yes, I'm looking at that screenshot in this episode where she looks like a near-exploding balloon) formula.

So my answer is, no, Westlo probably can't explain their disappearance. Only one of the Ranka fans before who had twisted and turned facts and said mean things could explain why they suddenly stopped. And I'm glad that the Ranka fans I see around seem to be more civil in discussions
OK this is right.
But you all saw the same scene like us,....how they painted Ranka on those stairs (she wasn't in her best day) + how they made her look ridiculous for misleading Alto'job for a confession: I like her character but how can I be proud of that ?
You should try to understand us .........nowadays it's became an assault course to be a Ranka fan

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilroy0097 View Post
Hey I just don't think Sheryl is as strong as everyone thinks she is. I really can't see how you guys believe that before she got sick she wasn't egotistical. It's seems rather plain as day to me. Aren't most super stars rather full of themselves? My viewpoint of Sheryl is as a normal human being that actually has weaknesses and is not as perfect as you guys really seem to want to paint her as. Let me say first before you guys bite my head off that I do actually like Sheryl as a character but I also like Ranka and the rest of the cast with exception of Alto. I really don't like Alto's character at all.
Alto is so slow to get it......... hope he makes his choice and fastly !!!!
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Old 2008-08-16, 11:12   Link #204
Marina Ismail
<3 Sheryl Saotome
*Artist
 
 
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Standing from where Ranka was and being friends with the guys... even I could have told who drew the heart in the sky. It's not like she doesn't know what hair colour Mik is. I guess all she cared about was the fact Alto took part in it, even if he didn't draw the heart himself.

I wish while she was running up the stairs that she tripped and broke her neck, then Alto x Sheryl ending confirmed~

I'm jking, but I realllyyy can't stand Ranka, I couldn't stand her from ep 1 and it's now 19 eps and I STILL can't stand her. Why doesn't she go after Luca so I can see Nanase get jealous, it's like Nanase doesn't even care about Luca.... -_-;
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Old 2008-08-16, 12:17   Link #205
MaiHikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
I'm really getting sick of reading all the post by the Ranka haters about how shallow she is when it's so not true and even shallow in it's self to say such things...back to the story please...
How does making your argument about a point drawing facts from the anime a shallow thing? Especially if someone else is debating with you on it. If you think she's so not shallow, perhaps you should state reasons why? If the act of calling someone shallow is shallow without sufficient evidence, then by that definition, you are also one.
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Old 2008-08-16, 12:29   Link #206
G1Ace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaiHikari View Post
How does making your argument about a point drawing facts from the anime a shallow thing? Especially if someone else is debating with you on it. If you think she's so not shallow, perhaps you should state reasons why? If the act of calling someone shallow is shallow without sufficient evidence, then by that definition, you are also one.
the argument is about if ranka is shallow or not
it is turning into a petty he said she said fight and it's getting nasty, not to mention pointless
So this argument about her being shallow or not is shallow, cause the argument is not based on anything concrete
Even adults when they are in love tend to do stupid childish stuff. It's what being in love is all about. That's what being human is all about.

don't get me wrong, by all means the ending I want is becoming more and more clear, and last and this episodes were clearly showing the ending I believe will eventually happen. But 5 pages of furious sniping about the shallowness of ranka's love for alto is a bit too much.

so let's stop talking about the last 30 seconds, stop talking about the arrow through the heart and the flight up the stairs and let's start talking about the other 18 minutes; about the 3 vajra, klan, michel, alto's bro, ai kun, brera, the coup d'etait, grace, the very nice second song from ranka which I really liked, michel, ozma and kathy's date
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Old 2008-08-16, 12:38   Link #207
MaiHikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G1Ace View Post
furious sniping about the shallowness of ranka's love for alto
You misunderstood. It's about her shallowness toward everything else, not her love for Alto. And since when is character analysis pointless and forbiden in this forum and resulted in personal assault?
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Old 2008-08-16, 14:29   Link #208
G1Ace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaiHikari View Post
You misunderstood. It's about her shallowness toward everything else, not her love for Alto. And since when is character analysis pointless and forbiden in this forum and resulted in personal assault?
it isn't

to be honest if it wasn't for all the complaining about ranka's shallowness I wouldn't have even noticed

And then so many pages of complaining about ranka while leaving out almost everything else that happened is a bit too much. It seems, at least to me, to be petty and it just goes on and on and on

besides, the subs haven't appeared yet (is someone from the substaff sick?), and it seems like many can't understand what is being said, having to judge the episode based upon limited understanding of the language and basic summaries. I'd also suggest some form of prudence for that reason
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Old 2008-08-16, 15:08   Link #209
Tsuchiro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G1Ace View Post
besides, the subs haven't appeared yet (is someone from the substaff sick?), and it seems like many can't understand what is being said, having to judge the episode based upon limited understanding of the language and basic summaries. I'd also suggest some form of prudence for that reason

Most of the people that complained had their dose of ackem subs already.
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Old 2008-08-16, 15:38   Link #210
Swampstorm
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I've seen a number of excellent points made regarding this episode in the earlier discussion, but many of these were buried under a pile of angry accusations regarding shipping and bias. The main problem, I think, was in how these ideas were expressed.

I'm not really interested in delving into Ranka's character too much here, but seeing the latest batch of replies, I think that these issues need to be seen for what they really are. You might not agree with any of them, but hopefully you'll at least see the reasoning on which these arguments were based.

Ranka's Goals:
In episode three, Ranka tells Alto that she wants to sing professionally because she wants people to hear her. It's essentially a desire to prove her existance: being trapped in the emergency shelter made her realize that she didn't want to die unrecognized by the people around her. Her dream of becoming a professional singer was her path to self-actualization: to leave her footprints on the sands of time.

Ranka's decision to become Frontier's weapon in the battle against the Vajra was an extension of that. The government placed her in a situation in which her singing could make a difference to save lives. In so doing, Ranka was placed in a position to achieve her dream. With the people of Frontier hanging on to her every word, she finally had a chance to leave her mark on society.

This episode, and to a lesser extent, episode seventeen, subverts this character build-up.

In episode seventeen, Ranka resolves her doubts about becoming Frontier's weapon by asking Alto for his opinion. The problem, however, is that Ranka's decision to throw her support behind the military is based solely on gaining Alto's approval, rather than by discussing how this new role fit in with her original dreams.

In episode nineteen, by claiming that Alto is her sole reason for singing, Ranka sets aside her original aspirations to sing and share her music for the sake of everyone. The earlier discussion about feminism ties in here, since by casting aside those dreams, Ranka denies herself her own individuality in the process of trying to enter into a relationship with Alto.

But this situation can be considered outside of a gender specific context, as well. In any relationship, there needs to be a balance between your own needs as an individual and the needs of your partnership. Neglecting one for the sake of the other leads to a very one-sided relationship.

Ranka's role on Frontier:
Now if these concerns don't trouble you so much, an obvious counter-argument that you might make is "Why can't she change her goals?" To be sure, there's something that sounds very romantic about discarding your dreams for the sake of love.

But the problem here is that it's no longer just Ranka's sacrifice to make: it's the sacrifice of all of the people on Frontier. On the path to fame, Ranka agreed to portray herself as a symbol of hope for Frontier. The immense success and fame that Ranka was granted by elevating herself above the status of a mere idol, however, comes at the cost of responsibility.

Again, this ties back to the process by which Ranka made her decision. Had she decided to become Frontier's weapon in order to achieve her original dream of leaving a mark on society, then she would have relished the chance to take up this responsibility. Had she decided that she just wanted to sing for Alto, then she could have returned to those simpler days of singing Aimo to him on the hill.

But because Ranka took action based on a desire to gain Alto's approval, she has placed herself in a position where she does no justice to either her own needs or the needs of the people of Frontier. But part of growing up is in learning to live with the consequences of your decisions.

Ranka's actions during the parade result from and reflect her inability to do this.

Final Scene:
The reason that the last scene provokes a response from the viewers is due to dramatic irony. Ranka doesn't understand the reason why Alto and Sheryl are together on the roof, but the audience does. Ranka's situation is sharply contrasted with Sheryl's throughout the episode. So when you finally see them meet on the roof, and Ranka gets upset over the scene that she sees, the viewers tend to react strongly to the sheer incongruity of the situation. It's very overwhelming to watch.

While we can't blame any of the characters on this last point, it's the actions that they make leading up to this point that provide the tinder for this scene. The final moment is nothing more than the dropping of a lit match.

***

Hopefully that helps clarify these points, since I'd much rather discuss something else.
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Old 2008-08-16, 16:24   Link #211
Dark Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaiHikari View Post
How does making your argument about a point drawing facts from the anime a shallow thing? Especially if someone else is debating with you on it. If you think she's so not shallow, perhaps you should state reasons why? If the act of calling someone shallow is shallow without sufficient evidence, then by that definition, you are also one.
Well we as humans are very shallow creatures aren't we?...It just seems to me that some people love for Sheryl and want for a Sherly x Alto ending makes them blindly hate Ranka but thats just how I view it anyway...

I say Ranka is not shallow because she has without question accepted the job has the light and hope of the people of Frontier not for herself nor Alto but because she believes it's the right thing to do. She just asked Alto the guy she trust the most for a second opinion and not just to be praised by him.

I mean I just don't get it... Aren't we forgetting that it was Sheryl who has told Ranka a couple of times to go for the goal, follow her dreams, and don't give up. Now that Ranka is trying to follow Sherly's words to get what she wants she is getting ragged on because of it.

All I'm saying is leave the poor girl alone let her character go flush out the way the writes and creators want I'm sure they know what they are doing...
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Old 2008-08-16, 16:58   Link #212
squaresphere
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It seems like we rehash the Ranka/Sheryl debate every single ep release. The arguments are stale and for me I love Sheryl as a character but I don't hate Ranka.

Personally, I think it's the Sheryl x Alto people or the Ranka x Alto people that get all bent out of shape. Honestly, for me Sheryl is too good for a bum like Alto, but considering he's the first person she's open up to it's natural that she'd have feelings for him no matter how much he doesn't deserve them.
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Old 2008-08-16, 17:03   Link #213
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
I say Ranka is not shallow because she has without question accepted the job has the light and hope of the people of Frontier not for herself nor Alto but because she believes it's the right thing to do. She just asked Alto the guy she trust the most for a second opinion and not just to be praised by him.
I don't think shallow is the right word in describing her character whether or not she chose to accept the job as Frontier's savior. Regardless, Ranka never accepted the job as the light and hope of the people without question. Episode 19 is a good indication that she is not entirely into this whole "Minmei the 2nd" affair. Moreover, her original reason to sing was to prove her existence, later changed to for the sake of humanity and by this episode for Alto.

If Ranka is not shallow, she is not shallow for the wrong reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
I mean I just don't get it... Aren't we forgetting that it was Sheryl who has told Ranka a couple of times to go for the goal, follow her dreams, and don't give up. Now that Ranka is trying to follow Sherly's words to get what she wants she is getting ragged on because of it.
Sheryl originally thought Ranka's dream was the same as hers, to sing for the sake of singing, not for politics, not for an individual but for the art and fulfillment of singing. Ranka has since her acquisition of fame, deviated from that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
All I'm saying is leave the poor girl alone let her character go flush out the way the writes and creators want I'm sure they know what they are doing...
Yet, you cannot deny her for essentially being a flip-flop. She is also very naive, and has little to no clue of the importance surrounding her aura. She also doesn't seem to take her fame and role as savior of humanity seriously. She wanted fame, she got it, but now she is being wishy-washy about it.

- Tak (Never mind that she looks younger each passing episode)
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Old 2008-08-16, 19:25   Link #214
Mughi
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Mid-Tejas
Wink

OK... much water under the bridge in the last 14 hours, but not much progress.... eh?

Let's take a look at time for a moment (moment in time? heh!) I look at the series as having happened over a period of time that probably hasn't even encompassed a year.... Does anyone KNOW definitively how much time has passed by now? If they've been showing a timeline, I've been too busy looking at cool explosions & listening to the soundtrack to notice that detail... AND because of the apparent brief period of time we are talking about, (BTW, The only thing I have trouble suspending disbelief over is the time it takes to make a film, like Bird Human and get it into the theatre.) whether mature or immature, I can't actually imagine Ranka CHANGING any more than she has, which arguably is little to none at all, except in willingness to take risks more than she did in the beginning.

Even watching the show over months, I'm not disappointed, I'm instead excited that things seem to be coming to a head. I'd be frustrated if she was inconsistent, but I don't see Ranka being that way, so I can deal with who she is... But that's a skill. I take people as they are and where they are in their lives, and accept them as such. That doesn't mean I have to like it, but I can't WANT for them to be different MORE than they want it for themselves. I guess it comes down to what I'm willing to tolerate.

Now, for me, I've talked this subject to death and am done with it.

Is everyone ready for the Eps, 20 thread to open for speculation yet?
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Old 2008-08-16, 19:25   Link #215
Haesslich
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Incidentally, subs are out. The reason it was delayed was, and I quote gg, "MAI HANEII wanted cakes, so..." and thus Antique Bakery came out first.
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Old 2008-08-16, 19:47   Link #216
ickem
シェリルの為に!
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mughi View Post
OK... much water under the bridge in the last 14 hours, but not much progress.... eh?

Let's take a look at time for a moment (moment in time? heh!) I look at the series as having happened over a period of time that probably hasn't even encompassed a year.... Does anyone KNOW definitively how much time has passed by now? If they've been showing a timeline, I've been too busy looking at cool explosions & listening to the soundtrack to notice that detail... AND because of the apparent brief period of time we are talking about, (BTW, The only thing I have trouble suspending disbelief over is the time it takes to make a film, like Bird Human and get it into the theatre.) whether mature or immature, I can't actually imagine Ranka CHANGING any more than she has, which arguably is little to none at all, except in willingness to take risks more than she did in the beginning.

Even watching the show over months, I'm not disappointed, I'm instead excited that things seem to be coming to a head. I'd be frustrated if she was inconsistent, but I don't see Ranka being that way, so I can deal with who she is... But that's a skill. I take people as they are and where they are in their lives, and accept them as such. That doesn't mean I have to like it, but I can't WANT for them to be different MORE than they want it for themselves. I guess it comes down to what I'm willing to tolerate.

Now, for me, I've talked this subject to death and am done with it.

Is everyone ready for the Eps, 20 thread to open for speculation yet?
It's been 4 or 5 months since Sheryl arrived on Frontier.
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Old 2008-08-16, 19:50   Link #217
magnuskn
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You know what I hate? That Swampy makes a bunch of excellent arguments, and everybody ignores him to natter on about shallowness.

Or maybe I am just pissed off that the same happened to a pretty long post of mine one page ago.

In any case, excellent post, Swampstorm!
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Old 2008-08-16, 20:00   Link #218
Mughi
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by ickem View Post
It's been 4 or 5 months since Sheryl arrived on Frontier.
Thank you very much... That helps with perspective...
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Old 2008-08-16, 20:40   Link #219
Sleepy100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
I've seen a number of excellent points made regarding this episode in the earlier discussion, but many of these were buried under a pile of angry accusations regarding shipping and bias. The main problem, I think, was in how these ideas were expressed.

I'm not really interested in delving into Ranka's character too much here, but seeing the latest batch of replies, I think that these issues need to be seen for what they really are. You might not agree with any of them, but hopefully you'll at least see the reasoning on which these arguments were based.

Ranka's Goals:
In episode three, Ranka tells Alto that she wants to sing professionally because she wants people to hear her. It's essentially a desire to prove her existance: being trapped in the emergency shelter made her realize that she didn't want to die unrecognized by the people around her. Her dream of becoming a professional singer was her path to self-actualization: to leave her footprints on the sands of time.

Ranka's decision to become Frontier's weapon in the battle against the Vajra was an extension of that. The government placed her in a situation in which her singing could make a difference to save lives. In so doing, Ranka was placed in a position to achieve her dream. With the people of Frontier hanging on to her every word, she finally had a chance to leave her mark on society.

This episode, and to a lesser extent, episode seventeen, subverts this character build-up.

In episode seventeen, Ranka resolves her doubts about becoming Frontier's weapon by asking Alto for his opinion. The problem, however, is that Ranka's decision to throw her support behind the military is based solely on gaining Alto's approval, rather than by discussing how this new role fit in with her original dreams.

In episode nineteen, by claiming that Alto is her sole reason for singing, Ranka sets aside her original aspirations to sing and share her music for the sake of everyone. The earlier discussion about feminism ties in here, since by casting aside those dreams, Ranka denies herself her own individuality in the process of trying to enter into a relationship with Alto.

But this situation can be considered outside of a gender specific context, as well. In any relationship, there needs to be a balance between your own needs as an individual and the needs of your partnership. Neglecting one for the sake of the other leads to a very one-sided relationship.

Ranka's role on Frontier:
Now if these concerns don't trouble you so much, an obvious counter-argument that you might make is "Why can't she change her goals?" To be sure, there's something that sounds very romantic about discarding your dreams for the sake of love.

But the problem here is that it's no longer just Ranka's sacrifice to make: it's the sacrifice of all of the people on Frontier. On the path to fame, Ranka agreed to portray herself as a symbol of hope for Frontier. The immense success and fame that Ranka was granted by elevating herself above the status of a mere idol, however, comes at the cost of responsibility.

Again, this ties back to the process by which Ranka made her decision. Had she decided to become Frontier's weapon in order to achieve her original dream of leaving a mark on society, then she would have relished the chance to take up this responsibility. Had she decided that she just wanted to sing for Alto, then she could have returned to those simpler days of singing Aimo to him on the hill.

But because Ranka took action based on a desire to gain Alto's approval, she has placed herself in a position where she does no justice to either her own needs or the needs of the people of Frontier. But part of growing up is in learning to live with the consequences of your decisions.

Ranka's actions during the parade result from and reflect her inability to do this.

Final Scene:
The reason that the last scene provokes a response from the viewers is due to dramatic irony. Ranka doesn't understand the reason why Alto and Sheryl are together on the roof, but the audience does. Ranka's situation is sharply contrasted with Sheryl's throughout the episode. So when you finally see them meet on the roof, and Ranka gets upset over the scene that she sees, the viewers tend to react strongly to the sheer incongruity of the situation. It's very overwhelming to watch.

While we can't blame any of the characters on this last point, it's the actions that they make leading up to this point that provide the tinder for this scene. The final moment is nothing more than the dropping of a lit match.

***

Hopefully that helps clarify these points, since I'd much rather discuss something else.
You forgot to mention that Sheryl is dying and Ranka doesn't have a clue about it. So seeing seeing Sheryl in Alto's arm is like a betrayal, and not something innocent. I agree with you on your last sentence. The talk of the triangle is getting boring.
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Old 2008-08-16, 20:42   Link #220
justinstrife
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I finally had the free time to watch the 19 Raw...

I like Ranka less and less as time goes on. "Alto-kun... Alto-kun... Alto-kun!" as she's running up the stairs...

Give me a freaking break! This girl is as naive as they come. -bashes head against wall-

Major points for Michael and Klan Klan this episode. Ozma and Kathy were cute together(as their interactions are always fun).

I'm still wanting to push Alto out the airlock, but he had brief moments where I didn't dislike him so much...

Poor Sheryl. She's not catching any breaks here at all. Alto you're going to be too late as long as a certain puppy keeps following you around.
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