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Old 2008-08-18, 07:25   Link #21
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
Right, I'm not saying I expect them to actually provide us with a legal Day 0 or even Day 14 release (as FUNimation's rep said on that fansub and industry panel), but if such a thing were to happen, all they need is an established online distribution platform, like a streaming site such as Crunchyroll.
Streaming is obviously not remotely "equivalent". It doesn't satisfy the wish to collect anime you like, it is not always available, and the quality is by all objective standards terrible. Streaming will not get the majority of fansub fans to switch, since it does not scratch the aforemented itches.

Quote:
Considering BitTorrent and high-quality files aren't as widely used anymore as their streaming equivalents, [...]
A misleading way to put it, since it sounds as if there was a significant move from bittorrent/hq-files to streaming, which I don't see. Download numbers of fansubs have not significantly changed over the last years. Streaming is a different _new_ kind of ballgame, not a substitute for fansubs.

Quote:
I don't see how much of a paradigm shift would there need to be. Most folks (the streaming crowd) would just need to go to a different streaming site. And at least a portion of hardcore fans who download via BT/IRC wouldn't wait for rips to appear.
A portion might not, maybe. However, the bulk would. The quality difference is simply way too great, you can't collect streaming files, and you (usually) can't watch them from your couch on your home TV, at least not in hi-quality. This may not apply to a portion of other anime fans, but I'm convinced that the vast majority will still try to look for the fansub alternative.

Anyway, I don't want to see this thread degress into another "streaming" debate. If you seriously believe that the 4 predictions I listed would not happen due to some official "streaming" sites popping up, we'll have to agree to disagree. I honestly can't see this happening.
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Old 2008-08-18, 07:49   Link #22
Potatochobit
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if you look at the demographics you will probably see a big difference in what types of media people use.

I know for a fact that everyone at work went out and bought an iphone, twice, since the new model is now out. they are all old folks and do not watch the funimation channel provided by AT&T, but they are constantly pressing buttons everywhere they go (especially the restroom ) I myself have not tried the funimation channel, but I did try to watch videos on the phone before and came to the conclusion that phone plan prices are ridiculously outrageous.

in the US TV and streaming is not popular on the video phone, but it is in other countries
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080818/...ee_mobile_tv_4
basically, its going to come down to price and availability for whatever 'convenient' method they choose to distribute and online is quite convenient
itunes is quite viable, i think it has proven online content can be downloaded legally.
i am not sure how well bost is doing, but I do know lots of people watch strike witches.
somewhere they said the xbox downloads were selling well.

I agree pretty much with what mentar said but I dont see a need to 'rub-out' or 'integrate' fansubbers. most fansubs are shows that are currently airing in japan. so until more studios aim for a simultaneous worldwide release its probably just more trouble than its worth.

I do think the anime industry is going to take an even steeper dive soon, but I would blame that more on the current sour economy.
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Old 2008-08-18, 08:36   Link #23
cyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Streaming is obviously not remotely "equivalent". It doesn't satisfy the wish to collect anime you like, it is not always available, and the quality is by all objective standards terrible. Streaming will not get the majority of fansub fans to switch, since it does not scratch the aforemented itches.
I think you answered this one yourself. Streaming anime is a different kind of ballgame, but the problem is you don't want to acknowledge the numbers. There are more people streaming anime than downloading them. BitTorrent wasn't a big problem until streaming sites came along, because its user base consists of a slowly growing demographic of people who buy anime regardless of fansub availability, and obviously people who never buy. Now, I don't intend to state that streaming sites are the sole perpetrator to why DVD sales are down, because they're not, but they are part of it. Their deal is that they took away mainstream casual consumers, especially teenagers, who casually purchased anime while browsing through specialty stores. After all, the U.S. is a big country, and the R1 industry needs to sell only so many copies of a show to break even. Casual consumers care less about how they watch anime than any other type of anime fan, and all it took for a portion of them to stop buying DVDs was the proliferation of YouTube. For Christ's sake, it's being talked about casually on national television, there are even shows dedicated to YouTube clips. The problem is, the R1 industry became dependent on tapping the mainstream consumer market (that's why dubs exist), but this goes way back, before Internet distro. The result? You have big companies like FUNimation who try to rely on a mix of different types of consumers to stay alive (casual consumers (that's why the low-priced seasonal box sets and dubs), DTO, PS3/XBox360, streaming sites, AT&T portables, and hardcore fans) and small companies like Media Blasters who rely solely on what's left of casual consumers and hardcore fans.
To address what I quoted, it's debatable whether or not streaming entices the urge to collect anime, but for the sake of wrapping up this debate I'll agree with you. However, the fact remains that casual fans are migrating to streaming sites, and they're not coming back to brick and mortar stores. That is what you can call a paradigm shift.

Anyway, the anime piracy debate has shifted from the quality argument to solely speed and availability. You may think you're the king of the road because your group releases good translations and HD video quality, but as the streaming sites took over those things became completely irrelevant. What concerns licensees more is how many people got to watch the product, not the quality at which they watched it. They're more worried about the mindset that anime is free and readily available on day one of Japanese broadcast. And since that will remain the case for many generations to come, they are looking for ways to monetize that. Online advertisement for supporting content isn't there yet, but I personally see it as the only way they'll be able to monetize casual consumers up to a certain high percentage, otherwise digital delivery will never take off. Media Blasters doesn't believe it ever will, and I tend to agree with them.
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Old 2008-08-18, 08:50   Link #24
houkoholic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Streaming is obviously not remotely "equivalent". It doesn't satisfy the wish to collect anime you like, it is not always available, and the quality is by all objective standards terrible. Streaming will not get the majority of fansub fans to switch, since it does not scratch the aforemented itches.
Streaming just gets a bad name due to places like Youtube and CR, but in fact the technology is perfectly capable of doing 720p HD - as demonstrated by Hulu and iPlayer. There is nothing wrong in streaming technology, what's stopping streaming in HD is only whether companies are willing to do it or not.

The availablity problem is again, on the company level rather than a technical issue. There is absolutely no stopping them to build a giant on-demand streaming library of HD videos.

The hurdles are not as big as you make it out to be. A quick nod from the suits could get this going in no time, the problem is really, will they nod or not.
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Old 2008-08-18, 08:59   Link #25
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You also seem to be forgetting the biggest problem of all. HD content requires ENORMOUS amounts of bandwidth, particularly for streaming it, and that costs equally enormous amounts of money, something most people/businesses can't realistically afford without charging a fair sum for the privalege of watching, or having huge amounts of ads on the site everywhere (or both of course). And getting people to migrate to another streaming site that means they have to pay to watch when they could just watch for free on youtube or wherever is going to be nigh-impossible.
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Old 2008-08-18, 09:46   Link #26
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Thanks a ton for derailing the real issue of a thread with something ENTIRELY unrelated, streaming. This is exceptionally annoying. I'll try to reply briefly, and then FOR THE LOVE OF GOD let's PLEASE stop with streaming talk. Okay?

Toua: You are missing my point. I couldn't care less what Funi does with streaming sites. As we agreed upon, they are a different ballgame. I repeat, I DON'T CARE ABOUT ANIME STREAMING. I'm talking about the FANSUB world. And the thing is that I see no "legal alternative" official anime streaming solution changing the fundamentals of the _fansub_ Bittorrent/Encodes world, short of a REAL paradigm shift. The 4 points I listed _will_ happen if the anime industry puts significant new C&D pressure on the fansub groups.

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Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
Streaming just gets a bad name due to places like Youtube and CR, but in fact the technology is perfectly capable of doing 720p HD - as demonstrated by Hulu and iPlayer. There is nothing wrong in streaming technology, what's stopping streaming in HD is only whether companies are willing to do it or not.
Yes and no. Of course, under laboratory conditions, HD streaming is possible, however for commercial use, particularly for offering (nearly-) free anime streaming, it is simply not feasible.

Problem 1) Client-side Bandwidth

What's limiting the use here is the bandwidth available for the average user. There's no point in offering HD streaming with peaks of 3000+ kbit/s if the majority of users can only realize 500 kbit/s safely (and Youtube is even below that - around 300 kbit/s). Also, keep in mind that even if you plan to serve only the hi-end users with premium content and only "youtube" the normal fans, it will usually have to be _international_ traffic, which tends to be unable to max out your local line.

Problem 2) Costs

Folks, streaming is expensive. It's a 1:1 form of communication and prohibitively expensive if used in a multiple-thousand-user environment. For simplicity's sake, let's argue that the product is streamed in youtube quality, then a full episode would be around 50 MB. Let this be watched by 20.000 users, and you're already entering Terabyte areas - for a single episode. Raise the quality to HD, and you're talking _at least_ 5 times that. And the costs for the technical infrastructure you need to handle this kind of bandwidth are extremely high, too. Not to mention that the sizing would have to be peak-based (you can expect most users around release time, and you need to provide enough bandwidth for ALL of the peak simultaneously!). To start a HQ streaming platform, you'd have to recoup all these losses, and that would be _really_ difficult. I happen to work in this area, so I know how the business cases look like. Trust me, this may work for premium content for customers paying top dollar, but not for anime fans used to get anything for free.

(Which is why I'd definitely advocate a torrent-style distribution for anime, since it's MUCH easier on the bandwidth requirements and thus MUCH cheaper. In fact, the best equivalent and most useful construct would probably be a form of STEAM from Valve)
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Old 2008-08-18, 09:50   Link #27
Darkje
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Ah Mentar just made me realize a few more things if we're going down this road...

I talked about going back to IRC and usenet as distribution, but I've seen groups put their subs on rapishare/megaupload/etc now.

No more uploading and sharing, no DMCA, in fact, it would be pretty trivial to switch away from a P2P model all together.


I agree with the quality thought presented here, as in picture quality. Has anyone been dissapointed with a DVD release verus a fansub? When you are getting spoiled with 720p releases, why would you want to pay for the DVD version?


And with that, point 2 Mentar made...noone is going to hold back ripping blueray/dvds if there is no "code of honor", that is the scary part to me...
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Old 2008-08-18, 09:56   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Thanks a ton for derailing the real issue of a thread with something ENTIRELY unrelated, streaming. This is exceptionally annoying. I'll try to reply briefly, and then FOR THE LOVE OF GOD let's PLEASE stop with streaming talk. Okay?
Maybe we should take this to a new thread entirely, since we are to all intents and purposes derailing a simple notice thread already
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Old 2008-08-18, 10:10   Link #29
cyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Toua: You are missing my point. I couldn't care less what Funi does with streaming sites. As we agreed upon, they are a different ballgame. I repeat, I DON'T CARE ABOUT ANIME STREAMING. I'm talking about the FANSUB world. And the thing is that I see no "legal alternative" official anime streaming solution changing the fundamentals of the _fansub_ Bittorrent/Encodes world, short of a REAL paradigm shift. The 4 points I listed _will_ happen if the anime industry puts significant new C&D pressure on the fansub groups.
And you are missing MY point, that BitTorrent has always been trivial to anime companies in terms of numbers and will continue to be trivial because it has two well-defined and predictable types of anime fans already: the FANS who buy stuff regularly and the fans who never buy. Do you think they care if the latter decides to ignore their streams? Do you think FANS will boycott streaming sites because they wouldn't offer MKV softsubs? If yes, you are ignoring basic principles on which the fandom stands: we love anime first and foremost. We don't love anime solely because they were fansubbed, at least I haven't had a pleasure of meeting a fan like that.

About HD streaming, don't Koreans do that already?
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Old 2008-08-18, 10:24   Link #30
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Originally Posted by Toua View Post
And you are missing MY point, that BitTorrent has always been trivial to anime companies in terms of numbers and will continue to be trivial because it has two well-defined and predictable types of anime fans already: the FANS who buy stuff regularly and the fans who never buy. Do you think they care if the latter decides to ignore their streams?
Toua, please try to get it inside your head: The C&Ds have _nothing_ to do with streaming. NOTHING AT ALL. They don't affect streaming sites, they don't affect streaming fans. Streaming is IRRELEVANT to the C&Ds. They are relevant only to the fansub world.

So no, BitTorrent-fansubs are NOT considered trivial to the anime companies. They are what is now _targeted_ by the C&Ds, which is the topic of the thread.

Quote:
Do you think FANS will boycott streaming sites because they wouldn't offer MKV softsubs?
I'm convinced that some fansub fans may watch episodes on streaming sites if they can't wait and could get them there first. But they will not stop seek fansubs for the enjoyment of higher visual quality, and they will still seek fansubs to collect them in order to be able to watch them WHEN they want HOW they want.

Quote:
If yes, you are ignoring basic principles on which the fandom stands: we love anime first and foremost. We don't love anime solely because they were fansubbed, at least I haven't had a pleasure of meeting a fan like that.
They won't "boycot" them, but they won't stop downloading fansubs just because a streaming site exists. And the fansubbers I know wouldn't want to stop their hobby for streaming sites either.

Feel free to disagree with that *shrug* - I'm not saying that I'm necessarily right, but nearly all anime fans I know would prefer a fansub over a stream.
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Old 2008-08-18, 10:38   Link #31
Darkje
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I think the issue with the discussion is that (and this is my opinion), the problem is two fold.

One being the fansubbers getting C&D letters to get them to stop subbing, and the second part is the DMCA complaints against people doing the p2p sharing of these subs (eg Sekirei) that surprisingly started again right as we see these C&D .

So one wonders if and how those are related...trying to cripple the groups, and curb the high quality distribution?

Neither of those will affect the streaming sites as much, other than groups dropping certain subs.


Edit : Thoughts about loving certain anime because of fansubbing, have you ever waiting for a sub to come out by a certain group? It's the same principle...the right fansub group can make a huge difference in the enjoyment of a series imho.
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Old 2008-08-18, 10:43   Link #32
Potatochobit
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bringing up HD encodes is just silly.

let me go pull out my HD anime collection, oh wait, I dont own a blueray player yet because my stapler makes such a fine paper weight already.

the large bandwidth requirement still holds true though.
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Old 2008-08-18, 10:58   Link #33
cyth
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Toua, please try to get it inside your head: The C&Ds have _nothing_ to do with streaming. NOTHING AT ALL. They don't affect streaming sites, they don't affect streaming fans. Streaming is IRRELEVANT to the C&Ds. They are relevant only to the fansub world.

So no, BitTorrent-fansubs are NOT considered trivial to the anime companies. They are what is now _targeted_ by the C&Ds, which is the topic of the thread.
You said this with such seriousness that it might actually sound true. The truth is, it's not. Do you think FUNimation sends C&Ds only to fansubbers? They send takedown notices to every streaming site, eBay auction they can find, which is basically the same thing as a C&D.

They obviously target fansubbers first because it's easier to work like that, but the two groups watching fansubs are trivial to them and always have been (what a way to switch the tables, touche). The existence of fansubs has never been a serious problem because they are meant to cater to a demanding niche, the problem was their proliferation. Most fansubbers reject the idea of their work being distributed via YouTube. You have these little piracy circles for pretty much every possible field of interest, like fantasy books scans, but they're not perceived as a problem because they're kept low-profile.
Quote:
They won't "boycot" them, but they won't stop downloading fansubs just because a streaming site exists. And the fansubbers I know wouldn't want to stop their hobby for streaming sites either.
You're right, but if nothing else, fansubbers would think twice before attempting to sub something with official subs already announced. I believe The Tower of Druaga and BLASSREITER fansubs (*cough*OCR subs*cough*) were not able to keep up with CR's releases, and Strike Witches has a stream-ripping group doing its thing while its fansubbers are somewhat behind. First groups to release always had some influence on how many groups would work on shows.
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Old 2008-08-18, 11:15   Link #34
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
You said this with such seriousness that it might actually sound true. The truth is, it's not. Do you think FUNimation sends C&Ds only to fansubbers?
Could you please try to keep your position consistent? Just one note before you took the position that Bittorrent is irrelevant:

Quote:
Originally Posted by toua
And you are missing MY point, that BitTorrent has always been trivial to anime companies in terms of numbers and will continue to be trivial because it has two well-defined and predictable types of anime fans already
YOU are the smartie who called the fansub world irrelevant, not me. The truth is that the fansub world DOES matter.

Quote:
They send takedown notices to every streaming site, eBay auction they can find, which is basically the same thing as a C&D.
Did I say anywhere that the fansubbers were the ONLY one targeted? Of course not. But the predictions 1-4 I made in my note were based on the effect the C&Ds and Funimation-as-lawyer-for-all approach have. But I don't CARE what Funi does with streaming sites, warez peddlers, Ebay merchants or whatnot. I'm talking about the _fansub world_. And I'd kindly ask you to stick to the topic. Thanks.
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Old 2008-08-18, 11:25   Link #35
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
2) Finally anonymous and furious about their forced exitus from the "official" days, many subbers will feel no qualms anymore to break several "inofficial" mostly honored rules:
This does not all follow from your #1 point. Is the logic supposed to be "Wha- I can't extend my e-penis anymore... I'm going to get back at the companies?" Why are they supposed to be furious? Why aren't they just going to quit and find something better to do with their time like maybe get paid to sub?

Quote:
3) The anime community and hence the market will shrink with the exitus of the "name" groups. Less channels, websites and forums means less crystallization points, and less socializing.
Fansub group's websites and forums are not social points. It's more like putting up a visible feeding dish for all the tigers stand around.

Quote:
4) The number of "niche" animes warranting a licence outside of Japan will continue to shrink.
This is pretty much the weakest of all your arguments especially since the whole "They use fansub numbers" is pretty much debunked. However, none of the titles they are going after right now are niche.

We have one "It's not if, it's when" with Slayers revolution.
We have a SJ title with Reborn.
We have the third part of the girls with gun series with El Cazador.
We have a pair of Gangan titles with Nabari no Ou and Bamboo Blade. (The former is a "If the price is cheap enough." The latter is arguably niche.)
We have a yaoi title with Monochrome factor. (Niche, but popular in it's niche in Japan.)

So basically, almost none of these titles are actually niche and needed to be fansubbed for awareness in the first place. These are all in the process of getting licensed and probably have since before they aired.

Quote:
Basically, what it boils down to is that the anime studios have the option either to try to include the fansub world in an effort to cooperate, or they can try to shut them down and out. The C&D way is the latter approach. And it's not really rocket science to predict 1-4. Not everything looking good on Powerpoint will actually have the intended effect in the real world.
There is no reason that they need to include fansubbers or need fansubbers if they could actually replace them. These C&Ds aren't trying to say "No fansubbing this title which nobody has ever heard of even in Japan and gets a 1.0 rating share". It's "hands off, a company is basically about to sign the deal on this one."

(This argument only applies to the titles listed above. Aniplex is partially a different story since they are going after the users and not the groups.)
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Old 2008-08-18, 11:41   Link #36
cyth
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
YOU are the smartie who called the fansub world irrelevant, not me. The truth is that the fansub world DOES matter.
In terms of numbers (check what you quoted), you know, the two-BitTorrent-demographics thing I talked about, the fansub world doesn't matter. The only reason companies send C&Ds to fansubbers is because of the existence of STREAMING SITES, which is the sole reason why I even bothered mentioning them, and apparently going off-topic, according to you. In a world where streaming sites don't exist (and such a world did exist 'till 4 or 5 years ago) fansubs aren't really an issue because their audience doesn't change.

I'm keeping myself on topic just fine, thanks. I know it's hard losing ground in a debate.
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Old 2008-08-18, 11:52   Link #37
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Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
This does not all follow from your #1 point. Is the logic supposed to be "Wha- I can't extend my e-penis anymore... I'm going to get back at the companies?" Why are they supposed to be furious? Why aren't they just going to quit and find something better to do with their time like maybe get paid to sub?
It's no required reaction, but a predictable one which will hold true for _many_ fansubbers. It's annoying for them to start a series and then suddenly have to stop, which breeds resentment. Also, like street artists are also living for the applause, stroking e-penises by getting positive feedback from fans _does_ matter. And finally, many people _like_ tinkering with the animes they love most, to create the best possible version of it you can come up with. Being "visible" via website is a deterrent against using BluRay sources for example. Once you're forced underground, this deterrent is gone.

Quote:
Fansub group's websites and forums are not social points. It's more like putting up a visible feeding dish for all the tigers stand around.
Of course they are. Animesuki would get much less visits either wouldn't they run their torrent listing. And several groups have elaborate forum systems with alot of traffic. Not to mention 4-digit numbers of fans in their IRC channels.

Quote:
This is pretty much the weakest of all your arguments especially since the whole "They use fansub numbers" is pretty much debunked.
Because someone from the industry said so? *lol* Cute

Okay, let me turn this answer around then: If someone is purchasing R1 licences without looking at download numbers, he deserves to go out of business. It's his own fault, since it is unprofessional NOT to use all available information sources at his disposal.

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However, none of the titles they are going after right now are niche.

We have one "It's not if, it's when" with Slayers revolution.
Unknown to most newer fans. Okay, fine.

Quote:
We have a SJ title with Reborn.
Don't even know which one you mean

Quote:
We have the third part of the girls with gun series with El Cazador.
Absolutely niche.

Quote:
We have a pair of Gangan titles with Nabari no Ou and Bamboo Blade. (The former is a "If the price is cheap enough." The latter is arguably niche.)
We have a yaoi title with Monochrome factor. (Niche, but popular in it's niche in Japan.)
All of them definitely niche.

Quote:
So basically, almost none of these titles are actually niche and needed to be fansubbed for awareness in the first place. These are all in the process of getting licensed and probably have since before they aired.
And you seriously think that e.g. Bamboo Blade had been viable R1 titles without subs? Did you happen to work for a folding R1 studio by chance?

Quote:
There is no reason that they need to include fansubbers or need fansubbers if they could actually replace them. These C&Ds aren't trying to say "No fansubbing this title which nobody has ever heard of even in Japan and gets a 1.0 rating share". It's "hands off, a company is basically about to sign the deal on this one."

(This argument only applies to the titles listed above. Aniplex is partially a different story since they are going after the users and not the groups.)
I believe you misunderstood my posting. I'm not saying that noone can be of this opinion which you listed. Fansubbing _is_ illegal. Sure you can defend your rights. Sure you can demand that people stop their activities. You can also say that anime fans who follow 10 shows should duly purchase 10 DVDs per month to pursue their hobby legally. You can also demand that there shouldn't be violence in this world, and people should stop to yell at each other.

The fact is that the reality is looking different to what the industry wants it to be. And as much as you may want to complain about it, I'm genuinely convinced that

1) groups will be forced underground
2) many of these folks will be pissed and release stuff anonymously WITHOUT restraint
3) the anime market will shrink
4) niche titles will become even less viable

are indeed the impending results. No matter whether you personally like it or not.
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Old 2008-08-18, 13:05   Link #38
cyth
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Groups going underground... Some might see it as a fun challenge, you know, bots and fservers and such, an actual underground community, spies and ninjas and all of that. If fansub distribution were kept in small circles like that, not only would the industry be unable to send you any C&D letters, you would give them no reason to do that.

And don't fansubbers already release HQ stuff without restraint? As I remember from one of my adventures with Lunar Anime (wasn't this one of your groups?), instead of keeping scripts to themselves, they were sharing them with DVD rippers.

The anime market won't shrink, at best it'll disseminate. I don't discuss anime on this forum, I go to local fan communities to do that. Hardcore fans that buy anime regularly usually have no problems finding fansubs either, even if we're talking underground distribution.

In any case, I doubt all this will happen because BitTorrent is here to stay, so point three becomes moot immediately, point two is debatable at best. Point four is moot because niche titles' viability depends on the size of the company releasing it. You know, it's an issue of how many mouths it has to feed.
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Old 2008-08-18, 13:29   Link #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
In terms of numbers (check what you quoted), you know, the two-BitTorrent-demographics thing I talked about, the fansub world doesn't matter. The only reason companies send C&Ds to fansubbers is because of the existence of STREAMING SITES, which is the sole reason why I even bothered mentioning them, and apparently going off-topic, according to you. In a world where streaming sites don't exist (and such a world did exist 'till 4 or 5 years ago) fansubs aren't really an issue because their audience doesn't change.

I'm keeping myself on topic just fine, thanks. I know it's hard losing ground in a debate.
I myself believe that if taking what Mentar earlier had said to be true of the RAW providers drying up during the Share/Winny crackdown, there's likely the possibility that we became their lifeboat. That the crackdown on fansubs may be a desire in keeping Japanese residents from accessing the material.
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Old 2008-08-18, 13:41   Link #40
Mentar
Sore wa himitsu desu!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
Groups going underground... Some might see it as a fun challenge, you know, bots and fservers and such, an actual underground community, spies and ninjas and all of that. If fansub distribution were kept in small circles like that, not only would the industry be unable to send you any C&D letters, you would give them no reason to do that.
You don't seem to understand what black label releases mean. It means to release only on public trackers with a name which can't be traced to a website or irc channel. It's fansubs like any others, just without public face you could send C&Ds to.

Quote:
The anime market won't shrink, at best it'll disseminate.
Do you have any logical argument for this assertion? Mine is pretty obvious: The more personal connections you have while exercising a hobby, the higher the retention is. It's easier to walk away from something you do alone or with only few friends compared to an activity where you made and kept personal friends. IRC channels and fansub forums are very relevant here, and shutting them down is going to lose many people, thus shrinking the market.

Quote:
I don't discuss anime on this forum, I go to local fan communities to do that.
...

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