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Old 2008-08-18, 13:41   Link #41
cyth
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 28
@Green≤: That's not true because Share and Perfect Dark are both very prominent Japanese P2P programs, and you can still find pretty much any raw on their networks. What is true is that we now have access to better raws, but those other raw cappers (save the ones that got arrested) are still out there. And whether or not the crackdown on RAW cappers had any real merit for a couple of guys from Japan and overseas to get together is debatable as well. It's more likely fansubbers just wanted to present a better product.

Mentar, I meant fansubbed shows... Maybe the one I commented on was BLASSREITER and that's it. Can't really compare to the amount of discussions I do on other forums and IRC networks. You know, the whole dissemination thing.
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Old 2008-08-18, 16:46   Link #42
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
This does not all follow from your #1 point. Is the logic supposed to be "Wha- I can't extend my e-penis anymore... I'm going to get back at the companies?" Why are they supposed to be furious? Why aren't they just going to quit and find something better to do with their time like maybe get paid to sub?
It might not follow logically but it does most definitely follow psychologically. Deluding yourself into thinking anything else is extremely naive. People grow attached to their hobbies and if someone uses authoritative means to stop them from exercising said hobby, they get annoyed. It's a kind of Stockholm Syndrome thing. Also related is the fact that that most fansubbers are in the 16-25 years old range and can be expected to have a degree of the "FUCK YOU I WON'T DO WHAT YOU TELL ME" mindset.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

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Last edited by TheFluff; 2008-08-18 at 16:59.
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Old 2008-08-18, 16:52   Link #43
bayoab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Of course they are. Animesuki would get much less visits either wouldn't they run their torrent listing. And several groups have elaborate forum systems with alot of traffic. Not to mention 4-digit numbers of fans in their IRC channels.
Yes, there are a handful of groups out there which have active forums and communities that are focused on actual discussion. These are however, the exception to the rule. And yes, there are IRC channels with social structures and the like but the majority of people in the 4digit fan channels are not there to interact.
Quote:
Because someone from the industry said so? *lol* Cute

Okay, let me turn this answer around then: If someone is purchasing R1 licences without looking at download numbers, he deserves to go out of business. It's his own fault, since it is unprofessional NOT to use all available information sources at his disposal.
The issue here is that the companies are usually looking at the series within the first couple of episodes. The numbers are completely unreliable early on. Also, download numbers are known to end up biting you in the rear end hard. Azumanga is famous for having high download numbers, but insanely low sales comparatively. Haruhi is similar in that over 50000 saw it fansubbed, but maybe a 10th of those actually bothered to buy a disc. Fansub numbers definitely do not translate into sales all the time. Beside, the companies have an admittedly better metric which does rely on fansubs indirectly: cosplayers.


Quote:
Don't even know which one you mean
Reborn is a semi-popular manga which has already been licensed by Viz for a couple of years now.


Quote:
Absolutely niche.
El Cazador is the sequential genre follow up to Madlax and Noir... so not exactly niche.

Quote:
All of them definitely niche.
Gangan titles are not that niche at all in general. A good number of them of them are generic shonen variation X and/or are licensed in the US already. They may have never been heard of in the US prior to airing, but Nabari especially is not a tough sell at all. "A show about ninjas that doesn't suck or go on forever like Naruto, has blood, bishis and a different art style." That is exactly what R1 loves.

Quote:
And you seriously think that e.g. Bamboo Blade had been viable R1 titles without subs? Did you happen to work for a folding R1 studio by chance?
As I said, this one is debatable. I will concede that it should sell better having been fansubbed only because there is word of mouth out about it already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
It might not follow logically but it does most definitely follow psychologically. Deluding yourself into thinking anything else is extremely naive. People grow attached to their hobbies and if someone uses authoritative means to stop them from exercising said hobby, they get annoyed. It's a kind of Stockholm Syndrome thing. Also related is the fact that that most fansubbers are in the 16-25 years old range and can be expected to have a degree of the "FUCK YOU I WON'T DO WHAT YOU TELL ME" mindset.
If it were actually a somewhat legal hobby to begin with (like cryptography), I would agree. However, since fansubbing is not legal (poorly enforced/no longer accepted publically), I would question whether people would care so much as to go into what will basically be a true warez scene.

Last edited by bayoab; 2008-08-18 at 17:10.
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Old 2008-08-18, 17:31   Link #44
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
If it were actually a somewhat legal hobby to begin with (like cryptography), I would agree. However, since fansubbing is not legal (poorly enforced/no longer accepted publically), I would question whether people would care so much as to go into what will basically be a true warez scene.
Fansubbing was never legal to begin with. And except for a insignificant handful of know-it-betters and industry representatives it's still very much accepted - what may be changing is the usual tacit tolerance towards fansubs.

In other words, you're making a mountain out of a molehill here. And if you seriously can't sense how much resentment C&Ds create with fans and fansubbers, you really can't be very much in touch with both scenes. Will there be some fansubbers who would rather quit than go black label? Sure, there will be several. But alot of the veterans I know well (and most of the new guys) would release inofficially without breaking a sweat.

If you're really infected with the anime virus, and suddenly someone told you to stop what you've been doing for all the time - you'd stop watching your average of 5-10 shows and purchase DVDs instead?

Think again.
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Old 2008-08-18, 17:57   Link #45
cyth
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So why did your group stop subbing Slayers if you're such veterans that would do it without breaking a sweat? 'Cause it seems to me you're just angry over the fact that you picked up the soap, in a manner of speaking, and now you're promoting these "fight the power" ideals as if most people really care that much about heart-broken fansubbers. Don't you see your fans and fans of the show *want* you to go black label and release the stuff? It's probably more productive than ranting about it.

Sorry if I'm being too frank here. <.<;
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Old 2008-08-18, 18:17   Link #46
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
So why did your group stop subbing Slayers if you're such veterans that would do it without breaking a sweat? 'Cause it seems to me you're just angry over the fact that you picked up the soap, in a manner of speaking, and now you're promoting these "fight the power" ideals as if most people really care that much about heart-broken fansubbers. Don't you see your fans and fans of the show *want* you to go black label and release the stuff? It's probably more productive than ranting about it.
Eclipse didn't get the letter, SS did. It was their call. We currently don't have the resources to continue on our own.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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Old 2008-08-18, 18:26   Link #47
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
So why did your group stop subbing Slayers if you're such veterans that would do it without breaking a sweat? 'Cause it seems to me you're just angry over the fact that you picked up the soap, in a manner of speaking, and now you're promoting these "fight the power" ideals as if most people really care that much about heart-broken fansubbers. Don't you see your fans and fans of the show *want* you to go black label and release the stuff? It's probably more productive than ranting about it.

Sorry if I'm being too frank here. <.<;
You're not frank, you're merely trolling, as usual. And I don't feel a trace of "sorry" in you. Please spare me your insincerity.

Why don't you educate yourself about the facts a bit before you talk? Go to the Slayers thread and see what people think about it. I'd almost suggest to come to the irc channel and listen for yourself, but I amongst several others would prefer not to have you around.

This is a joint project, and our partner decided to drop it, so we'll honor this decision. Also, as Fluff said, we wouldn't have the resources now to do it.
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Old 2008-08-18, 22:48   Link #48
Rebochan
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[comment removed by a moderator] I remember when this used to be a hobby done with industry consent and not a god-given right.
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Last edited by Skyfall; 2008-08-19 at 01:29.
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Old 2008-08-18, 22:56   Link #49
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Rebochan View Post
[comment removed by a moderator] I remember when this used to be a hobby done with industry consent and not a god-given right.
"hobby done with industry consent"????

Interesting parallel universe you're from

Last edited by Skyfall; 2008-08-19 at 01:29.
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Old 2008-08-18, 23:01   Link #50
Rebochan
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
"hobby done with industry consent"????

Interesting parallel universe you're from
The lack of intense crackdowns is a form of consent, even if begrudging. That ends the second they decide that it is no longer either beneficial or harmless.
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Old 2008-08-18, 23:05   Link #51
Seditary
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No it isn't, it was either not worth their time or they weren't as aware.
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Old 2008-08-19, 01:24   Link #52
kiiro
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I'm actually rather upset by this. I've had a problem with FUNimation for ages anyway (Yu Yu Hakusho-related, the LIARS), and this just makes me want to spend less on their products than I do already. Watching Revolution has been a real joy to me, and now I'm left hanging in the series and madder than ever at FUNi.

I hope the C&Ds inspire some rebellion, mostly because I'm selfish and want more Revolution (and four years of Japanese isn't enough to understand all of it on my own).
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Old 2008-08-19, 02:15   Link #53
Ryusiangel
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Wow so thats what happen.
today i was inform by a friend that her friend tried to suicide herself cause of this
i wonder if this will be on anime news but my friend recently told me that cause of of the those C&D letter funaction sent out to the groups her friend was trying to overdose and now she is in the hospital.
I was like are you serious and she told me, yeah i guess anime could do that to you.

i told her if this might be on the news or will she keep herself annoymenous
but i'd like to know if its true or not >>

if ppl go crazy cause of slayers revolution then don't do anything crazy!
whoever is going to bring out slayers revoltuion should do it fast before it crazy like that @_@
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Old 2008-08-19, 02:55   Link #54
Green≤
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IY4Ever≤ ...no relation... got a C&D from FUNimation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IY4Ever≤
Recently, within the past day or so (Iím not sure when, for Iíve been holed up in bed, sick), we were sent a Cease and Desist order from FUNimation.
...
It is a sad day today that I must announce that IY4Ever≤ Fansubs is dropping Slayers REVOLUTION. ...
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Old 2008-08-19, 03:29   Link #55
bayoab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Fansubbing was never legal to begin with. And except for a insignificant handful of know-it-betters and industry representatives it's still very much accepted - what may be changing is the usual tacit tolerance towards fansubs.
Yes, fansubbing is not legal as I said. The implication was that in the past the industry had not enforced it and quietly accepted it publicly. I don't have a good analogy here at all, but the point is the people who came into fansubbing around the beginning of the digital period did not join going "I'm breaking the law" (the infamous "grey area" excuse).

Now, the industry is making a point that it is illegal. It is still poorly enforced, but it is no longer accepted publicly at all. Also, it is not an "insignificant handful" of people, it is the majority of the industry including some of the biggest directors and production studios out there publicly saying "Fansubbing hurts our bottom line". Production IG, the head of Gainax, Gonzo, Shinichiro Watanabe, ADV, FUNi, Bandai, Geneon, Kadokawa, etc have all come out and said this... and these are just the ones I can remember off the top of my head that I could easily source off ANN if I cared to.

What they do accept is that it exists and always will in some form. What they do not accept is that it is doing them any favors or that they should be allowed free reign like they used to have.

Side note: I actually had written that exact line originally and figured I would get called out on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Post history
- If it were actually a legal hobby to begin with, I would agree. However, since fansubbing is not legal to begin with, I would question whether people would care so much as to go into what will basically be a true warez scene.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
And if you seriously can't sense how much resentment C&Ds create with fans and fansubbers, you really can't be very much in touch with both scenes.
(This is a shortened, to the point, somewhat tangentially on topic version of a potentially very long response.)
I see the "resentment" on forums, IRC, etc. I doubt "how much" actually exists. We have seen it many times before with other titles and previous C&Ds. People claimed the MFI C&D would be the end of the company and they would never buy another MFI title. (Considering MFI titles are still being licensed, I doubt it had any measurable net effect.)

I believe (and the numbers seem to back me up) the majority of it is unjustified and not even worth acknowledging. I question a)if it's just a very vocal minority and b) if they actually buy anything at all. Some of the so called resentment basically boils down to "I've been breaking the law and now you are going to try and stop me!? (How dare you!/You have no right!)/(I'm going to spite/boycott your company for it!) (I'm entitled!/I have a right to watch this!/Now I'm going to be behind!)[Create your own typical response]" So, is this actually driving a wedge between the people who matter? I'd guess probably not. If you can bring proof to the contrary (posts like Vexx's are considered a minority and are not substantial proof), I'd love to see it. Disappointment on the other hand, I can agree with and understand.

Quote:
If you're really infected with the anime virus, and suddenly someone told you to stop what you've been doing for all the time - you'd stop watching your average of 5-10 shows and purchase DVDs instead?

Think again.
There is a difference between "Stop fansubbing" and "Stop watching anime". Also, they are not telling you to stop watching it. They are telling you to just wait a little while and actually watch the official products. It's not like they can't just move on to another show. They do that every season as it is!

(And titles I'm interested in are covered in this C&D. It's just *shrug*. I've been waiting years to finish some shows. I can wait a few months for others.)
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Old 2008-08-19, 04:50   Link #56
zka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
There is a difference between "Stop fansubbing" and "Stop watching anime". Also, they are not telling you to stop watching it. They are telling you to just wait a little while and actually watch the official products. It's not like they can't just move on to another show. They do that every season as it is!

(And titles I'm interested in are covered in this C&D. It's just *shrug*. I've been waiting years to finish some shows. I can wait a few months for others.)

Actually I wonder about that. If I need to wait a year in order to buy me some dvd's the anticipation and everything is going to fade away. I mean as soon as i watched death note trailers I was so hyped about the show. If I waited a year until the dvd's got out, I would have forgotten everything about it and just spent my money somewhere else. Due to fansubs and almost 0 day delivery when it aired I now even own the manga and the live action movie.

Anime virus is a nice thing, but if people don't have access to it as it airs in japan, now matter how great the virus is, it will be cured.

And let's not talk about how many animes that totally SUCK where I would burn the dvd's if I ever bought them just so that I can stop spreading that shit. Fansubbing is also like a filter for me in order to get some decent shows and not some crap that people can put out nowadays.

So basically THEY ARE saying that we who are outside of japan to stop watching anime. I mean if you are an anime watcher have you not been hyped over a series that you really want to watch due to a kickass description and awesome trailers just to due some circumstances you watch it 6months later and you KNOW that you would have enjoyed it 10x better if you could have watched it sooner and you get that "meh" feeling after finishing the series and just try to forget about even watching it.
I know I have, and If I can't get my weekly anime fix and posting weekly on anime forums as the episodes are coming out then what is left to do ?
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Old 2008-08-19, 04:56   Link #57
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
Now, the industry is making a point that it is illegal. It is still poorly enforced, but it is no longer accepted publicly at all.
If your point was that "no longer accepted publicly" means that some copyright holders decree that they'll oppose it, we never had a disagreement to begin with. To my ears you made it sound as if the _anime community_ would begin to turn against the evil fansubbers - sorry if I got that wrong - and this is certainly not true.

Quote:
What they do accept is that it exists and always will in some form. What they do not accept is that it is doing them any favors or that they should be allowed free reign like they used to have.
That's a cute way to put it. You know, it rather reminds me of a verse from the great poet Wilhelm Busch:

"Der Mohr hat seine Schuldigkeit getan, der Mohr kann gehen."

Quote:
I see the "resentment" on forums, IRC, etc. I doubt "how much" actually exists. We have seen it many times before with other titles and previous C&Ds. People claimed the MFI C&D would be the end of the company and they would never buy another MFI title. (Considering MFI titles are still being licensed, I doubt it had any measurable net effect.)
Now, as an industry-friendly guy, your position better be "due to the C&Ds, the sales numbers increased". Otherwise, the obvious loss of popularity would have been counterproductive.

Quote:
I believe (and the numbers seem to back me up) the majority of it is unjustified and not even worth acknowledging. I question a)if it's just a very vocal minority and b) if they actually buy anything at all.
What numbers are you talking about, I wonder? The last label to really press C&Ds for a longer time has been ADV, and we know how well ADV is doing these days. However, I'd think it's not credible to link the number of C&Ds to sales numbers directly.

Quote:
Some of the so called resentment basically boils down to "I've been breaking the law and now you are going to try and stop me!? (How dare you!/You have no right!)/(I'm going to spite/boycott your company for it!) (I'm entitled!/I have a right to watch this!/Now I'm going to be behind!)[Create your own typical response]"
There's alot of truth to what you write here. In both ways. Are anime fans spoiled with something they're not entitled to get? Yes. Do they break the law? Yes.

But: This is the reality.

The reality is that anime fans follow an average of 5-10 shows concurrently. The internet with its current distribution model is like programming a VCR: You click on torrents, and some hours later you're able to see the shows - just like you program your system to tape some TV airings to watch once you return home. It's like watching anime on a TV channel. While anime was booming like mad, this internet/fansub-induced growth was happily accepted by the anime industry. Nowadays, people select their shows of choice and know that the fansub world will provide them.

Buuut, the rules seem to be gradually changing. Now, it's like you're watching the new season of your favorite TV shows, but suddenly they're taken off the program. Hey, stop watching Galactica right now, purchase it on DVD 3-4 months later! Yay, fun! And this other show you like: Stop watching it in hi-quality in your chair, rather go to this streaming site and watch it in blocky-jerky mode. What? How do you dare complain, you're not entitled to get ANYTHING!!! Ungrateful oaf!

In the past, C&Ds have been generally exceptions. I still laugh about the demise of "The Seven Samurai", which fell from high prominence to irrelevance after the C&D - they were annoying, but generally the supply of anime was secured for anime fans. Mosquito bites. They itch, but you live.

If now via "power of attourney" trick, the anime studios begin to enforce their rights so that most interesting shows can NOT be followed as fansubs anymore, it's naive not to expect reactions to that. A good analogy might be the time of prohibition in the US. The demand for alcohol was still there, and it was provided - by illegal means, with the unsavory sideeffects. If the anime studios are aware of that and still decide to go ahead, they should not complain about the predictable results.

Quote:
There is a difference between "Stop fansubbing" and "Stop watching anime". Also, they are not telling you to stop watching it. They are telling you to just wait a little while and actually watch the official products. It's not like they can't just move on to another show. They do that every season as it is!
Oh, suddenly they "can move on to another show"? You're contradicting yourself. That's what the anime industry is cracking down on. Or does that suddenly only apply to "some" shows? It's the other way round: As long as only few shows got C&Ded, things were okay overall. But if THAT balance i disturbed and more and more shows are declared "off limits", I foresee an avalanche.

As long as no equivalent "legal alternative" is provided, I consider this approach foolish. And sorry: Streaming is no equivalent. And pretending that DVD releases are the way to go for anime fans to continue their hobby is outright ridiculous. That's not how the fans were "raised". And 200+ dollars for DVDs per month is BS, sorry.

Quote:
So, is this actually driving a wedge between the people who matter? I'd guess probably not. If you can bring proof to the contrary (posts like Vexx's are considered a minority and are not substantial proof), I'd love to see it. Disappointment on the other hand, I can agree with and understand.
So far, I see only known industry mouthpieces who try to peddle the "nothing to see here, move along" lone. The vast majority of fans are naturally pissed, because for them, it's only a disadvantage.

I can see that THE company most vociferous in anti-piracy fighting, ADV, started its campaign at the pinnacle of its influence and power. Now, it seems to be close to its demise. Why? Impossible for us to tell. But as much as you may belittle it - I remember that I bought alot of product from them in the past - EVA, Noir, Bubblegum Crisis etc etc. Then, I stopped doing so, simply because I didn't want to, and spent my money with other labels. I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one.

Quote:
(And titles I'm interested in are covered in this C&D. It's just *shrug*. I've been waiting years to finish some shows. I can wait a few months for others.)
And of course, you dutifully purchase the DVDs to do so ^_^

*sweet smile*
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Old 2008-08-19, 06:05   Link #58
False Dawn
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I've been considering what Mentar has been suggesting and it seems to me that perhaps it wouldn't be so hard if there was an industry-created program that worked a lot like Sky+ - in other words, a system where you can watch whatever you want, when you want it. Use downloads instead of a satellite TV system, and it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Logistically, you'd have to make sure that the program could only hold downloads for up to a week after download, say, and that it would need to be inaccessible to copying from the program (without using the dreaded DRM). That way, you could have high quality downloads on your computer without too much trouble. Cover it with a subscription fee (I've always thought some kind of anime internet TV station would do fairly well) and there we go, viable alternative. Obviously, some research would have to be done to see if this could be an economic viability and it would have to incorporate most of the R1 companies (like TV shows where DVD sales are a separate revenue to TV viewing), but I think it's a possibility if companies really put their minds to it.

I agree with Mentar that enforcement without viable alternatives is a dangerous policy. After all, the music industry (a much bigger industry) only recuperated some of its losses from illegal download sites like Napster by bringing in iTunes and similar legal alternatives. It's about time the anime industry did the same - otherwise it'll be lost in the wave of new technology.
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Old 2008-08-19, 06:22   Link #59
Potatochobit
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a C&D letter is not that big a deal, no need to blow it out of proportions

once they threaten to bring a lawsuit against someone, then there will be huge repercussions and an outward backlash in the industry.
that is what the MPAA does and the negative perception that the world has of them speaks for their actions.

how many C&D letters has DB received? if any company was going to take offensive action I would think it would be Viz.
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Old 2008-08-19, 06:25   Link #60
cyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I can see that THE company most vociferous in anti-piracy fighting, ADV, started its campaign at the pinnacle of its influence and power. Now, it seems to be close to its demise. Why? Impossible for us to tell.
There are a few very universal rule sets you can use when discussing the anime industry, and ADV is no exception to them. It's not at all impossible to figure out the gist why anime sales have dropped and why companies are dying out or scaling down, because it's safe to say there's not just one reason you can attribute everything to. If you had spent time reading industry news and attending industry panels, you'd probably be closer to figuring out what's wrong. But that demands a certain level of trust that you seem to lack. However, without it I doubt you'll ever be able to understand how fragile the industry really is.
Quote:
If the anime studios are aware of that and still decide to go ahead, they should not complain about the predictable results.
Predictable results? You're talking as if what you're describing has already happened in the past in one form or another. In fact, you have no objective basis for your predictions. One of these universal rule sets I mentioned is the fact that fansubs aren't going away. Another one is BitTorrent isn't going away. As long as people have the option to download, they don't really care what's happening. Anonymous fansubbing is nothing new, OCR subs are beginning to take off, ripping has always existed in one way or another. If fansub production and communities discussing it need to move underground, that's a small price for leechers to pay, especially if the industry is taking steps to finally start catering to them. And again, you're underestimating streaming crowds, you're overestimating the worth of the download community, and you're underestimating the anime consumer's willingness to adapt to new distribution platforms.
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