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Old 2008-08-17, 16:16   Link #21
Kaioshin Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
Well Kaioshin-sama may be right by reading this. The chick looks moe to me. Her monster side even looks moe.

I doubt that this will be hardcore otaku with nothing for the guys because it's got to sell over in R1 too by a distributor other than Media Blasters.
It kind reminds me of Gizmo from Gremlins.
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Old 2008-08-17, 16:23   Link #22
musouka
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Ahaahaha, I'm reading the 4koma right now. All my fears are put to rest.

801 is adorable, and perhaps moe depending on your taste, but a fujoshi through and through. The "for guys" part obviously comes in through her BF's look into the situation from the perspective of an outsider. In that respect it's really enjoyable because I can sympathize with both the characters for different reasons.

Don't expect Lucky Star. They're lightyears apart.
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Old 2008-08-17, 16:25   Link #23
cyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Oh come on, you totally know there's no need to even speculate. The dance opening is as much a part of the formula as anything. It would just be plain wrong not to have one at this point. None of the Japanese fans are going to let them get away with not having one now.
To entertain this line of thought a bit further, it would be totally awesome if they made fujoshi dance the wotagei to a character song by Ono Daisuke. The OADs and Romansus, skirt flipping and sweat dropping, and the kyaa~s... Pure gold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
It's not that I take issue with appeal to both sides of the equation--I'm sure 801-chan will be as cute as a button--but making this into yet another "fetishism" of fujoshi would leave a really bad taste in my mouth. It seems like whenever fujoshi are addressed in anime, the overwhelming response is to retool them to fit a male perspective.
What's so wrong with that? If anything, such a move might persuade more otaku to free themselves from their 2D delusions, to go out and find themselves fujoshi girlfriends. It's truly a brilliant plan to take over conservative Japan with the rise of the wota family!

Then again, freeing otaku from their 2D delusions would be bad for business.
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Old 2008-08-17, 16:32   Link #24
orion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Ahaahaha, I'm reading the 4koma right now. All my fears are put to rest.

801 is adorable, and perhaps moe depending on your taste, but a fujoshi through and through. The "for guys" part obviously comes in through her BF's look into the situation from the perspective of an outsider. In that respect it's really enjoyable because I can sympathize with both the characters for different reasons.

Don't expect Lucky Star. They're lightyears apart.
Ah but it has to be to sell in R1 (You know, that other primary market). To label something as "shoujo" in R1 is sealing its coffin. Dooming it not to sell. Decreasing KyoAni's profits. Ensuring that no distributor will touch it with a 10 foot pole.

For KyoAni to be involved with a "fujoshi" title means that something is going to be tweaked so that they can sell it comfortably in R1 with dubs.
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Old 2008-08-17, 16:43   Link #25
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Uh, it's worth noting that the likes of AIR and Kanon are just as bad off in the R1 market as shoujo. 801-chan is hugely popular in Japan--I strongly doubt the R1 market is comparatively that important to the KyoAni or their backers, especially considering how it's all but collapsed.
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Old 2008-08-17, 16:49   Link #26
orion
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R1 is important. R1 backers have helped Japanese studios in the past and have to bid on titles before they are completed in R2. If there are no bids, then there is no money for those studios.

Shoujo in R1 is worse than Air and Kanon which isn't shoujo. Just ask the fans of Full Moon where's their DVDs or Honey and Clover if they expect to see it released. Shoujo doesn't sell here.

I'm pretty sure that KyoAni is aiming higher than Media Blasters as the distributor. 'Cuz if it ain't mainstream that's who is going to get it. It will be subbed only and have very pitiful sales here.
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Old 2008-08-17, 17:19   Link #27
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I'd be surprised if KyoAni didn't pitch the show toward a large male audience. We aren't talking about a small studio that caters to tiny audiences (that don't buy DVDs for the most part......the anime DVD market is male driven), but rather a hot company that's groping around for the next market phenomenon. Even if the material isn't retooled so much, the way it's presented (i.e. moe appeal with regard to the protagonist) and promoted might well be tailored for the loyal KyoAni fanbase.

They turned Lucky Star into something big, and I bet they have similar plans for 801-chan.
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Old 2008-08-17, 17:36   Link #28
musouka
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You guys aren't getting it. From what I'm reading, 801-chan already has massive appeal to both audiences, and that's in its realistic depictions of a boyfriend interacting with his fujoshi girlfriend. It's appealing and makes me laugh because the humor is otaku-centric and both the characters are identifiable as people.

I think it's pretty sad that the only way you guys seem to be able to conceive as "appeal" is to turn it into Lucky Star. There is no need to flatten 801 into some sort of moe stereotype to pander to the audience--she's not Nogizaka Haruka and I hope she never will be. For that matter, it's not a BL series, so all this talk about "MediaBlasters" and "sub only" is pointless at this date.

If they wanted to animate a series about a "moe" fujoshi and her "moe" friends, then they probably wouldn't have chosen this series to adapt. This talk is like me claiming they're going to add BL into the next Key anime because fujoshi are a growing segment of the buying populace. in short, completely unfounded and ego-centric.
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Old 2008-08-17, 17:43   Link #29
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I'm sure R1 is important for most studios. But is KyoAni one to really be affected by the oversea sales, when any of their series is bound to sell 30k+ per DVD in Japan? I'd tend to think the future bids on their series aren't vital to them.

Why are some people thinking KyoAni will be trying to turn the series into something moe? Because they've always done so in their past series? Well, the moe factor was in the original works to begin with. Except in Full Metal Panic, where I don't think anyone was changed from the original to make the series any more moe.
Seriously, it's their first time doing this kind of genre, let's not assume they're going to butcher the original (where moe is indeed inexistant) to make this appeal for everyone. I don't even think they have to go down the moe route to sell anyway, what with the well-established popularity of the manga and all.
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Old 2008-08-17, 18:16   Link #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
You guys aren't getting it. From what I'm reading, 801-chan already has massive appeal to both audiences...
Exactly. I remember the first time I read about 801-chan was a while ago, when a couple of English anime news sites posted items about how incredibly well the print version was selling. Just because people here haven't necessarily heard of it doesn't mean KyoAni is swooping in to rescue it from obscurity.
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Old 2008-08-17, 18:37   Link #31
domino
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801-chan doesn't need to be changed in either Japan or R1 to be a success. In Japan it's ALREADY extremely popular and a staple name in the otaku presence (801chan creeps up everywhere sort of like how the English otaku community uses "pedobear" in similar situations), so they're just going to seal it as an otaku icon.

And look at what's popular among other R1 region anime fans: series about real-life everyday otaku are a hit. A lot of the most popular original English published manga (such as DramaCon and Aoi House -- correct me if I'm wrong, though, since I have only heard summaries of them and have not read them) is about the life of otaku and full of otaku jokes but are more about the average joe and his girlfriend instead of the more over-the-top otaku reference joke shows like Gintama and Zetsubou Sensei (which are funny, but don't have the added slice of life effect of being based on reality). The only problem is to bridge the gap so that the jokes will make sense because the original 801chan manga barely makes sense to even Japanese otaku -- the publication of it comes with a bunch of side notes for every single strip to explain just what the heck 801chan is talking about.

And it really will be nice if it makes otaku on both sides of the gender gap more open to going out and looking for an otaku/fujoshi girlfriend or boyfriend. It seems that the popularity of 801chan has sparked a bunch of clone manga, novels, and books about dating fujoshi and how to handle a fujoshi girlfriend. Ahh, romance..
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Old 2008-08-17, 20:30   Link #32
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Leave it to Kyoani to make fujoshi the new moe.

Also, this is the last chance for them to redeem themself. Eyes that take up 2/3 of the face is not cute.
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Old 2008-08-17, 21:29   Link #33
orion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by domino View Post
And look at what's popular among other R1 region anime fans: series about real-life everyday otaku are a hit. A lot of the most popular original English published manga (such as DramaCon and Aoi House -- correct me if I'm wrong, though, since I have only heard summaries of them and have not read them) is about the life of otaku and full of otaku jokes but are more about the average joe and his girlfriend instead of the more over-the-top otaku reference joke shows like Gintama and Zetsubou Sensei (which are funny, but don't have the added slice of life effect of being based on reality). The only problem is to bridge the gap so that the jokes will make sense because the original 801chan manga barely makes sense to even Japanese otaku -- the publication of it comes with a bunch of side notes for every single strip to explain just what the heck 801chan is talking about.
..
Actually they are not considered to be top 10 manga. Here's the top 10 anime and manga. Notice while shoujo manga is in the top 10, the corresponding anime isn't. Different set of buyers probably. The adage goes that "Girls don't buy DVDs.".

Besides the most recent "otaku" title. Welcome to NHK, wasn't doing too well either in R1. Haruhi IIRC also didn't meet expectations. Also, the otaku centric manga (Gintama) is not a top 10 title either. Goodbye Mr. Despair (anime) hasn't even been licensed for R1 yet either after 2 seasons have been completed.

KyoAni's got to mainstream this one.
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Old 2008-08-17, 21:43   Link #34
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Seriously, where are you getting this from? Did they "mainstream" Clannad for R1? No! It remains unlicensed, and they're currently laughing all the way to the bank (as usual, heh). Since when has KyoAni *ever* depended on R1 support?

They didn't decide to make Haruhi because it seemed like it'd be a worldwide hit--they made it because the light novels were already quite popular. By all accounts, everyone involved was surprised (pleased, of course, but still very much surprised) when it hit a chord with foreign fans as well. But whether or not it sold like hotcakes or flopped or whatever else in the US remains irrelevant to its immense success in Japan.

801-chan is plenty capable of selling loads of DVDs in Japan as it stands, which is what matters more than ever now that the R1 market has been reduced to, like, 3 regular players. If the shoujo thing is what you're stuck on, maybe it needs to be reiterated that 801-chan isn't shoujo. Heck, it wasn't even published in an anthology magazine to start with, so those labels don't apply here.

Even the example of Zetsubou Sensei works against rather than for your argument. If R1 support is so important, why did it get greenlit for a second season despite being unlicensed? Companies don't make more of shows they're losing money on.
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Old 2008-08-17, 22:27   Link #35
domino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
Actually they are not considered to be top 10 manga. Here's the top 10 anime and manga. Notice while shoujo manga is in the top 10, the corresponding anime isn't. Different set of buyers probably. The adage goes that "Girls don't buy DVDs.".

Besides the most recent "otaku" title. Welcome to NHK, wasn't doing too well either in R1. Haruhi IIRC also didn't meet expectations. Also, the otaku centric manga (Gintama) is not a top 10 title either. Goodbye Mr. Despair (anime) hasn't even been licensed for R1 yet either after 2 seasons have been completed.

KyoAni's got to mainstream this one.
Comparing anything to shonen jump hits like DBZ and Naruto won't work (even Haruhi, with her worldwide recognition, isn't on that list). World markets seem to favor anime heavy in action and stuff blowing up, making it extremely different from Japan's otaku scene. And the original English manga I mentioned like DramaCon are likely nowhere near bestsellers, but even so I have noticed a trend in that a lot of fans like to write stories about the lives of everyday otaku and they even see publication, which is enough. The subject matter interests people -- it's just that the original english manga that show this subject matter is (like almost all OEL manga) lacking in skill.

And if that list is your definition of mainstream, that means that KyoAni, one of the world's most famous and praised animation studios, has never been popular.

Being mainstream/making a lot of money does not necessarily mean that something is good, but it certainly helps the company producing it.

And as Magus IX said, R1 appeal usually isn't much of a factor in this kind of stuff. If a manga is popular, animate it. Japanese and American tastes in anime are so different that a lot of the bestselling "mainstream" R1 releases are unheard of in Japan, and vice-versa. There are few "Chibi Vampire" and "Witchblade" fans in Japan, while famous manga like 801chan and the often chart-topping sports series like Slam Dunk, Touch, and Prince of Tennis are not nearly as successful in the R1 region.
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Old 2008-08-18, 00:22   Link #36
Kaioshin Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magus IX View Post
Seriously, where are you getting this from? Did they "mainstream" Clannad for R1? No! It remains unlicensed, and they're currently laughing all the way to the bank (as usual, heh). Since when has KyoAni *ever* depended on R1 support?

They didn't decide to make Haruhi because it seemed like it'd be a worldwide hit--they made it because the light novels were already quite popular. By all accounts, everyone involved was surprised (pleased, of course, but still very much surprised) when it hit a chord with foreign fans as well. But whether or not it sold like hotcakes or flopped or whatever else in the US remains irrelevant to its immense success in Japan.

801-chan is plenty capable of selling loads of DVDs in Japan as it stands, which is what matters more than ever now that the R1 market has been reduced to, like, 3 regular players. If the shoujo thing is what you're stuck on, maybe it needs to be reiterated that 801-chan isn't shoujo. Heck, it wasn't even published in an anthology magazine to start with, so those labels don't apply here.

Even the example of Zetsubou Sensei works against rather than for your argument. If R1 support is so important, why did it get greenlit for a second season despite being unlicensed? Companies don't make more of shows they're losing money on.
The way I see it, the properties themselves are more popular in Japan while the company is more popular abroad. They didn't market Lucky Star as from the "the people that brought you Haruhi" for nothing. The thing is though that the companies name being associated with this or that doesn't necessarily make them money when you consider that many companies are popular abroad and have anime with widespread foreign appeal to boot. Gainax, Production I.G and Sunrise anybody? No, very few anime companies really consider the foreign market when making anime. I'm thinking the only one that might is Bandai Visual, and that's only because they are part of a massive conglomerate with loads of money to spare and the power to market their products all over the world and research what works in what region at an affordable expense.

I'm curious, did Lucky Star R1's sell all that well on the market? Did Haruhi DVD's for that matter?
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Old 2008-08-18, 02:36   Link #37
cyth
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Originally Posted by Magus IX View Post
Exactly. I remember the first time I read about 801-chan was a while ago, when a couple of English anime news sites posted items about how incredibly well the print version was selling. Just because people here haven't necessarily heard of it doesn't mean KyoAni is swooping in to rescue it from obscurity.
It's pretty much a mainstream thing already. Let's not forget it got a home video live-action movie release. If anything, Kyoto Animation is going to push the anime property back into obscure. That being said, wwwwwww, here's the intro to the live-action.

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Old 2008-08-18, 03:49   Link #38
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Man, is it just me or there's has been a huge push of anime series being created that are aimed more towards female audiences lately?
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Old 2008-08-18, 07:05   Link #39
domino
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Ah, apparently a 2nd drama CD is coming out in October. Since they are keeping the same cast as the first drama CD even after an anime announcement, the seiyuu for the TV anime will likely be the same:

Ueda Kana as 801-chan and Ono Daisuke as Chibe-kun.
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Old 2008-08-18, 07:08   Link #40
Simon
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Originally Posted by Toua View Post
What's so wrong with [retooling fujoshi to fit a male perspective]?
One word: boooooring.

Yes, I admit it, I enjoyed Lucky Star for what it was. And for all I bitch and moan about interesting female characters getting dumbed down as moe fanservice, my anime-watching habits are probably far more stereotypically male than I care to admit. But that doesn't mean I want to be fed the same cake all the time, even if it is delicious.

Will KyoAni apply Teh Formula to 801-chan? I don't know. Would they sell more R1s if they applied Teh Formula to 801-chan? Again, I don't know. But should they apply Teh Formula to 801-chan? No! No! NO! What appeals to me about this story is its potential to be something different, a fujoshi-eye view into a world I only know about through its "fetishism" in anime (to borrow musouka's excellent description). To make it male-viewer-friendly would be to tragically miss the point and waste that potential - has it ever occurred to the Marketing Gods that a good female-oriented show might appeal to both genders?

For all it's trendy to hate KyoAni, they deserve credit where due. Did anyone expect the dancing animu craze before Haruhi? It's easy to yawn at how clichéd it seems now, but that's because they got it sufficiently right to make it clichéd. I'm sure they're smart enough to know exactly how typecast they appear; they're also smart enough to surprise us all again, should they choose. Maybe Teh Formula will prevail, but what's the point of being an anime fan if you can't cling to irrational hope?


EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by domino View Post
Ueda Kana as 801-chan
*faints with delight*

What was I just saying about hope?

Last edited by Simon; 2008-08-18 at 07:09. Reason: Now with extra squee!
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