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Old 2008-09-01, 17:32   Link #81
Casshern
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
lol DBZ, Bleach Comparison.

Ichigo: Goku
Rukia: Krillin
Renji: Vegeta
Chad: Yamacha
Ishida: Tenshihan
Orihime: Shenlong
Renji should have been the "Vegeta" of Bleach but unfortunately his role has degenerated into more of a Krillin. Krillin was a hardass when he first appeared in the original dragonball, but as stronger allies and opponents kept coming he fell in the power ranks and even his personality became a wus. That's what's happening to Renji. Slowly he's getting softer and softer. Before you know it Renji and Ishida will be hiding together behind a rock telling each other they can't do anything untill Goku... oops I mean untill Ichigo arrives to save them.
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Old 2008-09-01, 18:59   Link #82
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Oh, so THAT'S why Wabisuke is shaped like that. I liked Kira's explanation of his sword and the 3rd Squad's philosophy. It was quite interesting, and made the chapter quite good.
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Old 2008-09-01, 21:04   Link #83
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Well the Renji right now is still like Vegeta, he's strong, but the enemies are always stronger. Its like "I'm a badass, but I can't seem to win dammit!"
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Old 2008-09-01, 23:13   Link #84
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Nah, Renji was always the Krillin and Krillin was a badass even later in dragonball he just happend to be the buttmonkey as well. It's come to the point where it is a shock when he wins a fight, they even do it to him in the anime fillers, which so far in the manga is 1 out of 5 so far and in the 1 he did win he was saved by a little girl (ok so he was fighting at 1/5 power and the little girl is a termenator but still)

It's funny but Ishida seems to have picked up the Piccalo role, always saying how he dislike shinigami yet anytime some thing happens he's right there with the rest of the group with an excuse on how he's not helping them or how he's doing it to prove he's better, he even has the fondness for capes.
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Last edited by kagato3; 2008-09-02 at 00:36.
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Old 2008-09-01, 23:19   Link #85
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Originally Posted by Kakashi View Post
In terms of characters dying and coming back to life, Bleach is right up there with Dragonball Z. Orihime being the Senzu beans.
I'd place Bleach a step above DBZ...
Yes Bleach has been avoiding death in many cases, but atleast in the cases where Bleach had avoided death it was at times where the moment "did not feel right" for a death... Rukia's death moment felt wrong since no one was their to witness it, and the time with Grim it was much too sudden... You just didn't get that "omg she dead feeling"...

same could be said about quiet a few missed chances to kill off a character...

DBZ on the otherhand, they did everything to trivialize death... they missed a lot of good chances... the dragon balls gave quite a few characters the confort they could be brought back and anyone who couldn't; well they turned around and ruined it later by adding MORE dragon balls. Is sad really, i mean, considering how many times characters had died in that series, in the END not a single one of them was dead

Death in story telling has certain art to it... you can't just kill someone, you got set everything just right; you really got to make that sense of tragedy stand out... Bleach doesn't trivialize nearly as much as DBZ did
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Old 2008-09-01, 23:48   Link #86
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To me, Sado fits the role of Krillin miles better than Renji. Krillin and Goku knew each other and trained together since they were little kids who still looked to be in their daipers. Ichigo and Sado shared a similar relationship, as they fought side by side in the streets of Karakura against other gangs and whatnot. Goku and Krillin fought together just like Ichigo and Sado. Eventually, Goku grew far stronger than Krillin just like Ichigo went much further ahead than Sado.

Goku and Vegeta first met as enemies and fought to the death throwing everything they had at each other. Similarly, Ichigo and Renji first met as enemies slashing to kill each other. Later on, through coinciding objectives, they decided to ally. Goku and Vegeta both wanted the death of Frieza, although why they wanted him dead were different reasons respectively. Both Ichigo and Renji wanted to save Rukia. Renji wanted to save her because he loved her and Ichigo because he had a debt to repay.

With those things in mind, wouldn't it be more accurate to say this?

Sado = Krillin
Renji = Vegeta
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Old 2008-09-02, 00:37   Link #87
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Originally Posted by Freedan View Post
Sado = Krillin
Renji = Vegeta
Ranji is so not vegeta... when it comes down to it, the whole dynamic between Goku and vegeta is that vegeta always wants to prove he is better but always falls just short of doing so... Renji he is no longer competition to ichigo and doesn't want to prove he's better, he's developed a friendship with ichigo and has no sense of rivalry between them... in terms of power it was always Goku first with vegeta coming in second, but renji is a far cry weaker then a number of the poeple that Ichigo's beaten... he's fallen behind... but ya, Sado probably makes a better case for Krillin... Renji is more Yamcha material =p

Vegeta... i'd have to back up the earilier comment for Grim... a desired to fight, a sense of rivalry, bitter hatred against Ichigo... he wants to be the "king" and feels a need to prove his strength...

I might also go with kenpachi... Kenpachi loves to fight and being the strongest, he Started as an enemy, now has a sense of rivalry, their battle essentially ended in a draw... kenpachi beat down 5th espada and Ichigo will beat down the 4th which kinda sorta takes note of their difference in strength being very small with ichigo still in the lead... the thing Kenpachi's missing is the fact that he hasn't lost a fight yet; but then again, the only time vegeta looses is when fighting an enemy that Goku is destined to fight and Kenpachi has to have such a fight
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Old 2008-09-02, 02:20   Link #88
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Vegeta... i'd have to back up the earilier comment for Grim... a desired to fight, a sense of rivalry, bitter hatred against Ichigo... he wants to be the "king" and feels a need to prove his strength...
I think Hichigo is a Vegeta himself, he matches the whole desire to fight, sense of rivalry and hatred towards Ichigo and he wants to be the King and feels a need to prove his strength, meaning Ichigo is Vegeta/Goku
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Old 2008-09-02, 04:34   Link #89
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~Isn't the one that always wants to prove himself better than Ichigo, Ishida?
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Old 2008-09-02, 10:16   Link #90
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Is sad really, i mean, considering how many times characters had died in that series, in the END not a single one of them was dead
It's even more sad when you add in the fact that there was only one character in the entire cast who didn't die at some point in the series.

Quote:
Death in story telling has certain art to it... you can't just kill someone, you got set everything just right; you really got to make that sense of tragedy stand out... Bleach doesn't trivialize nearly as much as DBZ did
Definitely agree. Bleach doesn't just bring dead characters back to life good as new like DBZ, but it does overuse shock moments that are supposed to readers think the characters are dead, which cheapens it.

IMO, fighting manga don't necessarily need many deaths to be good. One Piece is a good example. None of the major cast has died (not even bad guys) and there's barely any death period. There's almost no time where you actually feel like the death of a character is imminent. Still, the series has managed to be exciting and successful. If Bleach wants to go with a death-free policy, it should just follow OP's lead and just concentrate on top-notch action and not bother trying to shock readers with deaths that they know won't be permanent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiroInazuma
I think Hichigo is a Vegeta himself, he matches the whole desire to fight, sense of rivalry and hatred towards Ichigo and he wants to be the King and feels a need to prove his strength, meaning Ichigo is Vegeta/Goku
Hichigo is more an Evil Twin type character rather than a true Rival, like Vegeta.

But yeah, you can see from the link that both DBZ and Bleach are known for their large cast of characters who can be considered rivals to the hero. But I agree that GJ currently comes closest to being the "Vegeta" of this series.
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Old 2008-09-02, 10:32   Link #91
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Hichigo is more an Evil Twin type character rather than a true Rival, like Vegeta.

But yeah, you can see from the link that both DBZ and Bleach are known for their large cast of characters who can be considered rivals to the hero. But I agree that GJ currently comes closest to being the "Vegeta" of this series.
Hichigo is more of a super powered evil side. He's even pictured on the title page.
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Old 2008-09-02, 11:04   Link #92
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overall, DBZ is still one of the best Animes IMO, its Old... Look back at a lot of Old Animes and you'll say simular things as people say about DBZ

So stop saying DBZ sucks and get back on topic.

Hollow Ichigo can compair to NO ONE, you can compair people to him and tahts it. Hichigo is in his own class.
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Old 2008-09-02, 11:21   Link #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Ranji is so not vegeta... when it comes down to it, the whole dynamic between Goku and vegeta is that vegeta always wants to prove he is better but always falls just short of doing so... Renji he is no longer competition to ichigo and doesn't want to prove he's better, he's developed a friendship with ichigo and has no sense of rivalry between them... in terms of power it was always Goku first with vegeta coming in second, but renji is a far cry weaker then a number of the poeple that Ichigo's beaten... he's fallen behind... but ya, Sado probably makes a better case for Krillin... Renji is more Yamcha material =p
That's exactly what Vegeta did when Goku fought Kid Buu. Just then, he finally accepted the fact that Goku is the best and that there's no way for him to catch up to his former rival. Vegeta understood, and with a smile, that he could not achieve the same kind of power Goku had. Of course, that was near the end of the series, but it sure seems Bleach is also reaching its ending now.

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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Vegeta... i'd have to back up the earilier comment for Grim... a desired to fight, a sense of rivalry, bitter hatred against Ichigo... he wants to be the "king" and feels a need to prove his strength...

I might also go with kenpachi... Kenpachi loves to fight and being the strongest, he Started as an enemy, now has a sense of rivalry, their battle essentially ended in a draw... kenpachi beat down 5th espada and Ichigo will beat down the 4th which kinda sorta takes note of their difference in strength being very small with ichigo still in the lead... the thing Kenpachi's missing is the fact that he hasn't lost a fight yet; but then again, the only time vegeta looses is when fighting an enemy that Goku is destined to fight and Kenpachi has to have such a fight
I always saw Kenpachi as a unique character. I don't see him being similar to anyone in DBZ tbh.

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Originally Posted by Kyero Fox View Post
overall, DBZ is still one of the best Animes IMO, its Old... Look back at a lot of Old Animes and you'll say simular things as people say about DBZ

So stop saying DBZ sucks and get back on topic.

Hollow Ichigo can compair to NO ONE, you can compair people to him and tahts it. Hichigo is in his own class.
Actually, Shirosaki sort of acts like Raizen, Yusuke's ancestral father in Yu Yu Hakusho. Raizen takes over Yusuke's body, granting him phenomenal demonic powers during his second bout with Sensui and utterly crushes him without batting an eye. Shirosaki acted very similarly during Ichigo's fight with Byakuya.
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Old 2008-09-02, 12:08   Link #94
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
IMO, fighting manga don't necessarily need many deaths to be good. One Piece is a good example. None of the major cast has died (not even bad guys) and there's barely any death period. There's almost no time where you actually feel like the death of a character is imminent. Still, the series has managed to be exciting and successful. If Bleach wants to go with a death-free policy, it should just follow OP's lead and just concentrate on top-notch action and not bother trying to shock readers with deaths that they know won't be permanent.
Well when it comes to One Piece, Oda atleast proves he can write death scene damn well... while we may not get them in the present, he does make use of them in the past and it is some damn good storytelling; he sets up a lot of those scenes flawlessly... when it comes to the present though, he doesn't show and of it, cheapens "death", and overuses the shock factor... grant it, one difference is that he uses it on minor characters more often than main characters...

Come to think of it, when it comes to the use of death scenes i actually do rank one piece on about the same level as Naruto who actually does have present time deaths... the past deaths in one piece do pretty good to make up for the lack of deaths in the present, and Naruto has a few cheapened moments that have always left me a little sour

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Originally Posted by Freedan View Post
That's exactly what Vegeta did when Goku fought Kid Buu. Just then, he finally accepted the fact that Goku is the best and that there's no way for him to catch up to his former rival. Vegeta understood, and with a smile, that he could not achieve the same kind of power Goku had. Of course, that was near the end of the series, but it sure seems Bleach is also reaching its ending now.
Renji NEVER felt like Ichigo's rival, he was his enemy and then after their first real fight they become friends; and this was relatively early in the series. He never had a desire to be stronger than ichigo for the sake of being stronger... and after he became friends with Ichigo he fell WAY behind and doesn't even hold a candle to Ichigo anymore... Vegeta went from Villian to anti-hero and never really became Goku's friend for a very long time; he saw himself as a rival and always desired to be stronger... not until the very end did he give in

Renji is definatly more Yamcha... if i recall he started as a minor enemy and quickly turned ally after he lost, he then procceed to fight on but quickly fell behind Goku in terms of power... he ended up getting beaten by like most everyone else, many of whome also no longer can hope to match Goku
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Old 2008-09-02, 15:59   Link #95
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So all in all, this thread has degenerated completely from its original purpose and become a DBZ crossover fanfic discussin. Sweet.

Oh? No!! Don't mind me. Y'all carry on...
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Old 2008-09-02, 17:27   Link #96
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So all in all, this thread has degenerated completely from its original purpose and become a DBZ crossover fanfic discussin. Sweet.

Oh? No!! Don't mind me. Y'all carry on...
The next chapter is out in a couple days anyway.
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Old 2008-09-02, 21:07   Link #97
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So all in all, this thread has degenerated completely from its original purpose and become a DBZ crossover fanfic discussin. Sweet.

Oh? No!! Don't mind me. Y'all carry on...
Hear! Hear! You said it Shit, at this rate we should ask the mods to open a DBZ/Bleach thread. I can't stand that show :P
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Old 2008-09-02, 23:14   Link #98
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My friend, I think with that post, and especially those two paragraphs in the middle you hit the nail through the floor. That just about sums up everything.
eh 5 pages late but true story.
stoped watching bleach do to the fact that no one dies ever. always the good guys win hands down. once who know a chars "special" thats it i don't care anymore.
either way this feels like a filler arc more than a story arc. anyone else feel that way to?

eh just reread my post and i still want it due to boredom waiting to go to work in the morning but just the last 2ish episodes once in a while.....ya....anyways.

Last edited by Mokomi; 2008-09-02 at 23:58.
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Old 2008-09-03, 04:34   Link #99
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eh 5 pages late but true story.
stoped watching bleach do to the fact that no one dies ever. always the good guys win hands down. once who know a chars "special" thats it i don't care anymore.
either way this feels like a filler arc more than a story arc. anyone else feel that way to?

eh just reread my post and i still want it due to boredom waiting to go to work in the morning but just the last 2ish episodes once in a while.....ya....anyways.
I feel that way to it is just trying to keep the suspense on the IchigovUlquiorra story also on the statement of nobody dies in Bleach I disagree, they do die....they just never stay dead for over 20 chapters, at least people like Jiraiya or Itachi had the manners to stay dead!
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Old 2008-09-03, 09:18   Link #100
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I don't think there's anyone in bleach that really deserves to die except maybe Aizen for what he did to the vaizard group. And I don't think there's anyone who's death will propel any of the main characters' development, except maybe Byakuya for the development of Rukia but that's not happening in a million years unless Kubo wants to be the first to die to a horde of rampaging fangirls.

So imo there's isn't anyone who's death will serve a purpose yet.
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