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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 376 64.05%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 86 14.65%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 45 7.67%
7 out of 10 : Good 20 3.41%
6 out of 10 : Average 15 2.56%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 4 0.68%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 0.34%
3 out of 10 : Bad 6 1.02%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 2 0.34%
1 out of 10 : Painful 31 5.28%
Voters: 587. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-09-02, 21:59   Link #1301
KingOfWorlds
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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i gave this episode a 6 because things looked a t bit rushed, it would have been better if they would've expanded and went into more detail about some things instead of just rushing through things. The end caught me off guard, even though i knew something like that was going to happen because the next episode is "Emperor Lelouch" but how it happened surprised me.

I'm curious to see who's going to win between the Black King and the White King, its tricky because I can actually picture the series ending with Lelouch dying and/or losing to Schnizel. But who knows, and um .... is that Kallen on Lelouch's arm?! ... aww man bout time they got together. I dont think Suzaku is going to betray Lelouch though but who knows.
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Old 2008-09-02, 22:03   Link #1302
Charred Knight
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
If Lelouch had no morals considering his use of Geass, he would've just told the entire Imperial Court to die.

THAT would've been interesting to see on international television.
and then have the entire Britannian Army, and the UFN attack the imperial palace killing Lelouch.

All though that would have been a hilarious ending
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Old 2008-09-02, 22:05   Link #1303
Sprite_Coke
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Of course it was rushed lol. They even skipped their usual formal alternate history background intro.
The only thing I hated about this episode is the whole deal with Charles and his philosophy. They tried to reduce the bad guy rold from him and put him on a father-figure level. Also everything about him was completely reversed, how he believed the weak had no fit in this world, and whatnot. His whole "world without lies" basically screwed everything that has been built up until now.
BUT, STILL, the ending was so epic, I had to give it a 10. I haven't felt this refreshed about CG since the "Million Miracles" episode.
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Old 2008-09-02, 22:15   Link #1304
Sol Falling
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Goddamnit. 65 pages, and yet I haven't seen a single post that tries to address these allegations satisfactorily. Listen people, just because it's long doesn't mean it's 'reasonable': all lot of the 'contradictions' or 'plotholes' here are plain old bullshit, so really, just go ahead and post some counterpoints, okay?

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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I'm sorry, but the fact people didn't enjoy the episode like you did doesn't mean they didn't understood or felt it was too much to handle.
This is true, but unfortunately, about 80% of the complaints you listed in this post are invalid.

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Basically, the whole portrayal of Charles was absolutely deceiving into irrational proportions. Pretty much like what several people said, Charles was a ruthless emperor that used Darwin's theory to its full extent to the point he was the direct cause of many miseries. Yet, the scripters make him look like a good guy?
That is nonsense. The most ridiculous point is actually how they show him as a "caring father"... sure : why would he order rolo to kill lelouch should he recover his memories of being zero?
Addressed to all the people who are suddenly shocked that Charles isn't a tyrannical bastard, and claim Sunrise screwed with his characterization:

Some people already stated this, but Charles was only shown to have good intentions, not to be a good guy. If you actually paid attention to the show instead of automatically labelling Britannia as evil because it was Lelouch's enemy, though, you should have been able to pick this up. The Emperor's reaction to Euphie's massecre was the only major clue that his darwinist speeches were a mask in season one, but from season two: his promotion of Suzaku; his sparing of Lelouch and sending him back amongst his friends in Japan; his discussion with Nunally; his reproach towards V.V. for attempting to assassinate Lelouch; his conversation with Bismark regarding the effectiveness of War; and episode 15 in its entirety. V.V. said himself in episode 12 that they wished to destroy the "god which creates conflict", so it has been obvious for quite some time that Charles is a Knight Templar sort of character.

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What is even more ridiculous is the "KEIKAKU DORII" effect in the end. Charles and Marianne planning lelouch in that stuff? This is basically nonsense as well. How would they know he would be able to contact CC? How would they know he would want such revenge and being so successful? Lelouch had a lot of sheer luck and could die in many fashion. Since geass is very "customized" to the user, how would they expect him to have such convenient power?
The whole deal with code geass is that its premises is conflicting with its real background which is the biggest issue here.
I'm wondering where you even got this "KEIKAKU DORII" stuff in the first place. Charles and Marianne didn't plan anything. What happened is that they got betrayed by V.V., who killed Marianne, which resulted in her placement in Anya, Nunally's blindness/crippledness, her exile to Japan with Lelouch, and C.C.'s withdrawal from their company. Lelouch meeting C.C. and wanting revenge was not part of their plan at all; all they wanted to do was finish building the Thought Elevator and then get the two Codes (meaning they required C.C.'s presence by force or cooperation) in its presence. Since C.C. was hiding away from them and using Lelouch to fulfill her wish instead, though, they decided to use Lelouch as bait to lure her into their grasp. As such, Lelouch successfully rebelling and interfering with them was never planned or desired by his parents.

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...
As for the rest of that stuff, I could only find complaining without any actual explainations as to why anything was actually bad, so I'm gonna skip on replying to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brandon279 View Post
...
Now you. This guy was pretty insistant about his 'questions'. Why couldn't some of you bother to actually shut him up? Though to be honest:

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1) why did Nunnaly have to lose her eyesight and be crippled ? (while she didnt witness V.V, she was not with Marriane at night).

2) why did Charles change the memories of Nunnaly, what will he gain by that?! (plus were not lelouch memories get changed too?! Or how does he remember his mother's assassination occur at daylight ?! )

3) what did V.V mean by "cover up"? (how would he put Marrians dead body over Nunnely and still think of it as a cover up ?)
These are pretty good questions. The only thing I can offer is that I'm not sure Lelouch remembered the assassination happening during the day; rather, he just remembered a lit room, which could have been accomplished by turning the lights on. Still, I am confused as to why Nunally was made a witness as well. However, to address the other questions (mostly the unanswered ones)...

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4) what is the end result of charles schemes?, would all humans shar the same consciousness , same mind ? the dead and the alive ? then why did he need to preserve Marriane body, since the did will be there, (just like when he spoke with clovis in S1)
Indeed, preserving Marianne's body seems unnecessary. However, if you think about it, even if you were able to converse with the people who were still alive, it'd be better to have a body anyway, right? This would merely be another example of Charles and Marianne's selfishness.

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5) Bismark believed that there would be a world to be ruled by schnizel, how is that ? (would not all humans be merged into one consciousness, then what is the need of schnizel) .
Humans would understand each other, but that doesn't mean they would all share the same mind. As Bismark said, the meaning of 'ruling' would change.

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7) why did Charles take V.V code, (the ragnarok didnt need charles to personally in control of any code, he needed a code, V.V agreed on the plan, then why did he take it)
Charles took the code because V.V. had been a bitch and lied to him again. First V.V. killed Marianne, now he tried to kill Lelouch; the fact that he did all this and went so far as to try to hide it from Charles basically amounted to betrayal.

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8) how would they lure C.C by occupying japan, C.C could just walk away, actually if kallen didnt steal her(thinking of her as a gas capsule) kallen wouldnt be involved in this seris, then how can they lure her, even if they capture her, they cant force her to agree with their plan, then what is the use of luring her ? (unless they grant her wish) (but if thats right, then why would C.C escape from the beginning ?!, wouldnt she just gave her life for V.V OR latter to Charles) and in the end charles started the Ragnarok without her approval, then why the bother ?!!
You are operating under the same delusion as Klashkari. Charles and Marianne lured C.C. with Lelouch in the second season; they occupied Japan to obtain the geass ruins, and had just about nothing to do with the events which followed during the first season. Only in season two, once Lelouch had lost and it became clear that C.C. was not returning of her own will, did they begin attempting to capture her.

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9) the whole motto of Charles was "survival for fittest", so now he wants to creat the kind world?, talk about out of character.
Charles himself never embraced the idea of the strong conquering the weak. He merely saw the truth of the world, and tired of dealing with humanity's bullshit, decided to call them out on it. Nonetheless, what he truly desired was a world without lies, and as such worked towards that goal beyond the mask of Emperor. This became obvious (at the latest) when V.V. revealed that their goal was to destroy the god which created conflict in episode 12.

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10) how did lelouch geass the whole consciousness, that consciousness belongs to the whole humans, and there are humans immune to geass, like V.V, C.C, Charles, Suzaka, Villita, Germiah, lelouch himself ....etc, so how would he be able to geass it all, how can he geass without eye contact or with the target saying "yes" (anything along that word), it seemed to as bad plot.
First, the World of C does not include the consciousness of the living. Second, as the World of C exists only as a mass of consciousness, no soul is any more immune or susceptible to geass than any other. As for saying yes and eye contact, you did hear the moaning and see masks turning into bodies, right? Furthermore, the World of C is the being of conciousness from which geass originates, so the physical requirements of neural pathways and cognitive processes might not apply in the first place.

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12) why would Bismark cover for the emperor death, why would he tell people that the emperor will make broadcast while he knows that the emperor is DEAD.
Okay, so this here is the main issue I had with this thread. In all this time, did no one think to realize that (as indicated in the actual dialogue!!!) Bismark wasn't the one who announced the broadcast, and instead only announced (much earlier before) that Charles was missing?! Similarly, about all this "seeing the future" bullshit flying around more recently: Bismark only noticed the Emperor's plan had failed because there were no longer any shiny lights in the sky! There has been no suggestion that his geass had anything to do with it, and as such there is no evidence that his geass has something to do with seeing the future.
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Old 2008-09-02, 22:38   Link #1305
kir44n
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This episode, hell- this show, has been pretty frickin amazing. And considering how many posts are generated every week in response to each & every episode is pretty much a testament to this. Mind, the flaming has been pretty vicious this week, but amusing nonetheless. I will disagree with some of the posts that think lelouch will go the way of "death note" though.

Lelouch has already gone past the point where it is impossible for him to get a good end. His parents were self-serving as#$@%^s who "protected the children they truly cared about" by mind-f@#$ing them, and then banishing them to a nation they were going to invade & take over anyways. His sister, who he fought for and fought to protect is dead. His first love & close relative friend is (and has been) quite dead. AND C.C. has reminded him last episode that this still wants to frickin die. Anything he attains at the end of the show will not be a good end.

That being said, I don't think he'll have a necessarily bad end either. I think he'll take the role-reversal from being the "underdog protagonist in the shadows" and defend himself and his position from attack by Schneizel. Its certainly an innovative idea in any case. And I don't think he plans to throw his life away after all is said and done & die with C.C. If he wanted to die, he could have let "Gendo" finish his fun and play in Tang. In wishing for there to be a Tomorrow, he wanted to be there. He just has to defend tomorrow against Schneizel.

Mind, I've been wrong before. Hell, maybe Schneizel is planning to throw kittens from orbit to destroy Guren & Kallen in front of lelouch's eyes before one lands on his hat . Four episodes gives them plenty of time to give us the type of mind games that Hideaki "Screw you all to hell" Anno would be proud of.
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Old 2008-09-02, 22:47   Link #1306
El_Lazy_Mexican
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after rewatching a few episodes of back in the day, something just popped into my head (dont know if they've been talked about)

When Marrianne said she was the one that saved Suzaku so he can still talk to Euphie..... WTF? SHE MADE TELEPORT H4X?! BACK IN R1?

And ANother thing, I think Turn 2 or 3, Charles shows Suzaku the World of C through a pathway in one of Charles getaways..... So why was Charles pissed when Lelouch destroyed the Thought Elevator entrance when he still had methods to escape?

Kinda struck at me randomly.
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Old 2008-09-02, 22:50   Link #1307
LIL_BUNNYFUFU
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Originally Posted by El_Lazy_Mexican View Post
after rewatching a few episodes of back in the day, something just popped into my head (dont know if they've been talked about)

When Marrianne said she was the one that saved Suzaku so he can still talk to Euphie..... WTF? SHE MADE TELEPORT H4X?! BACK IN R1?

And ANother thing, I think Turn 2 or 3, Charles shows Suzaku the World of C through a pathway in one of Charles getaways..... So why was Charles pissed when Lelouch destroyed the Thought Elevator entrance when he still had methods to escape?

Kinda struck at me randomly.
mayber u can enter many ways but only exit 1 idk
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Old 2008-09-02, 22:51   Link #1308
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by El_Lazy_Mexican View Post
And ANother thing, I think Turn 2 or 3, Charles shows Suzaku the World of C through a pathway in one of Charles getaways..... So why was Charles pissed when Lelouch destroyed the Thought Elevator entrance when he still had methods to escape?
Theorized that due to previous destruction of the Sword of Akasha, Charles couldn't enter and exit it again through any Door of Twilight except from the one that is the best one, i.e. Kaminejima Isle.
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Old 2008-09-02, 22:54   Link #1309
Sprite_Coke
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Originally Posted by El_Lazy_Mexican View Post
after rewatching a few episodes of back in the day, something just popped into my head (dont know if they've been talked about)

When Marrianne said she was the one that saved Suzaku so he can still talk to Euphie..... WTF? SHE MADE TELEPORT H4X?! BACK IN R1?

And ANother thing, I think Turn 2 or 3, Charles shows Suzaku the World of C through a pathway in one of Charles getaways..... So why was Charles pissed when Lelouch destroyed the Thought Elevator entrance when he still had methods to escape?

Kinda struck at me randomly.
I think she's talking about just Charles and C.C. not having killed Suzaku (when they easily could've for betraying her precious son), without herself actually doing anything.
and yea the second part's been answered to what I correspondingly belive.
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Old 2008-09-02, 23:03   Link #1310
rafale
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This episode doesn't leave me with a good feeling as to how Lelouch will end up by the last episode. He became emperor too fast, too early. There's so much that can happen in the remaining episodes.

Not to mention, choosing Suzaku as his Knight ... Kaguya was looking like she came to the conclusion that Lulu and Suzaku were working together from the beginning. And with Suzaku's history of betrayals, and OoBK's current (mis)information on their exleader.. it doesn't look like they'll be supporting Lulu any time soon. Schneizel will most likely play up on that part as well.

At this point, its Lelouch and Suzaku on their own against the world.

I'm curious as to what role this Knight of Four will be having. She looks awfully like Yoruichi from Bleach. >D

Kallen.. I'm disappointed with her..and have been since the end of R1. But I'll save my reservations for next episode.
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Old 2008-09-02, 23:07   Link #1311
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by rafale View Post
This episode doesn't leave me with a good feeling as to how Lelouch will end up by the last episode. He became emperor too fast, too early. There's so much that can happen in the remaining episodes.

Not to mention, choosing Suzaku as his Knight ... Kaguya was looking like she came to the conclusion that Lulu and Suzaku were working together from the beginning. And with Suzaku's history of betrayals, and OoBK's current (mis)information on their exleader.. it doesn't look like they'll be supporting Lulu any time soon. Schneizel will most likely play up on that part as well.

At this point, its Lelouch and Suzaku on their own against the world.

I'm curious as to what role this Knight of Four will be having. She looks awfully like Yoruichi from Bleach. >D

Kallen.. I'm disappointed with her..and have been since the end of R1. But I'll save my reservations for next episode.
Lelouch will not have to do much to make the UFN happy. He gives up Japan freely, maybe frees the other areas or gives them equal rights, and everyone will at the very least be willing to deal with him.

Why disappointed in Kallen?
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Old 2008-09-02, 23:14   Link #1312
rafale
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I'm more thinking of what Schneizel will use against Lelouch than what Lelouch will do. xD He might even come public with the information on Geass, especially given that the entire court suddenly collectively changed their demeanor and opinion as a whole @_@. Britannia would be cut in half, and Schneizel will get the chaos he needs/wants to make a grab for the throne... or whatever it is that he wants.

On Kallen.. its more of a personal opinion on her. She walked away from Lelouch at the end of R1, I understand her motives and all that.. but every time she comes back to him only to leave again, it feels too easy. In 19, she'd just had her discussion with Lelouch in the elevator, and was about to mentally voice her thought that he's going to be alone again now that Nunnaly's gone, and then suddenly woosh, she's asking him what she means to him after a little push from the OoBk. And then she leaves. ! @_@ ; gah. ._.; yeah >_>; Ep 20 didn't have her do much either.. peer pressure and all but still >:T
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Old 2008-09-02, 23:18   Link #1313
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by rafale View Post
I'm more thinking of what Schneizel will use against Lelouch than what Lelouch will do. xD He might even come public with the information on Geass, especially given that the entire court suddenly collectively changed their demeanor and opinion as a whole @_@. Britannia would be cut in half, and Schneizel will get the chaos he needs/wants to make a grab for the throne... or whatever it is that he wants.
He'd just look crazy. He had no proof at the BK meeting, just Ohgi backing up his claims. The masses would never take it seriously.

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On Kallen.. its more of a personal opinion on her. She walked away from Lelouch at the end of R1, I understand her motives and all that.. but every time she comes back to him only to leave again, it feels too easy. In 19, she'd just had her discussion with Lelouch in the elevator, and was about to mentally voice her thought that he's going to be alone again now that Nunnaly's gone, and then suddenly woosh, she's asking him what she means to him after a little push from the OoBk. And then she leaves. ! @_@ ; gah. ._.; yeah >_>; Ep 20 didn't have her do much either.. peer pressure and all but still >:T
She had good reason. Lelouch called her a pawn when she put her feelings on the line. He said what he had to so she'd get out of harm's way. She still wants to talk to him, so she knows better now.
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Old 2008-09-02, 23:26   Link #1314
rafale
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But he does have proof ~ the entire court was geassed on international TV o.o~ Not to mention Odysseus was cut off in mid sentence. Sure, most people will take it as a hoax, but there'd bound to be confusion and chaos issuing from the debate.

Yes, Kallen did have good reason to walk away. But I meant before Lelouch calls her a pawn. She was all supportive of him back in the elevator. And this brings up to mind a previous episode in which Shirley also came to the conclusion that Lelouch is alone. Kallen has also came to that conclusion, yet, she suddenly backtracked when Ogi mentioned Geass. To me, it just really didn't feel like the place to question immediately after such strong feelings of support. I dunno if that came out clear or not <_<;;

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Lulu and Kallen. Its just that scenes like that really .. makes me want to kick her a bit and get her going.
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Old 2008-09-02, 23:37   Link #1315
morbosfist
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But he does have proof ~ the entire court was geassed on international TV o.o~ Not to mention Odysseus was cut off in mid sentence. Sure, most people will take it as a hoax, but there'd bound to be confusion and chaos issuing from the debate.
It's such a difficult thing to quantify, though, especially when he has little to no idea of how it functions. As for the disputes, Lelouch is liable to put that down right quick.

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Originally Posted by rafale View Post
Yes, Kallen did have good reason to walk away. But I meant before Lelouch calls her a pawn. She was all supportive of him back in the elevator. And this brings up to mind a previous episode in which Shirley also came to the conclusion that Lelouch is alone. Kallen has also came to that conclusion, yet, she suddenly backtracked when Ogi mentioned Geass. To me, it just really didn't feel like the place to question immediately after such strong feelings of support. I dunno if that came out clear or not <_<;;

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Lulu and Kallen. Its just that scenes like that really .. makes me want to kick her a bit and get her going.
How did she backtrack at the mention of Geass? She tried to defend him, they accused her of being controlled, and so she turned to Lelouch since they wouldn't listen. She wanted to know how he felt before dying with him.
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Old 2008-09-02, 23:58   Link #1316
blewin
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I wanted to give this episode a 10, but settled on 7. There just isn't enough set up for Charles' turnaround. He's still the villain, but the sympathy point for him is totally forced. Everything is too rushed.

The ending of the ep is good though, the usual Lelouch strategic move.
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Old 2008-09-03, 00:02   Link #1317
rafale
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Lelouch hasn't been doing much about it so far though. *_* I'm assuming he's bidding his time for the month in between. Now that he's revealed himself though, I hope whatever he does won't sink him in further xD~ Its hard to rule an empire if you have to geass everyone into it.

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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
She wanted to know how he felt before dying with him.
Is that it.~ That's an interesting way of looking at it. *rewatching the part a bit* Perhaps it was a bit too subtle for me in the overall ~ But regardless, throughout the series she kept coming back to him and then ditching him. Her teeter-tottering insecurity about him is really what drives me up the wall. She has seen him at his weakest points, his most obnoxious, and she knows him, what he is like, better most other. Kallen has seen him as Zero and as Lelouch, she already knows he's a good actor. She'd seen him when he was most human when he was about to take refrain. I'd like to think she'd learned a lot about the type of person he is through all that. Yet when it comes to who she is to him, she gives up on him just like that. Kallen's girl-side is a bit scary. ~
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Old 2008-09-03, 00:03   Link #1318
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
He'd just look crazy. He had no proof at the BK meeting, just Ohgi backing up his claims. The masses would never take it seriously.

She had good reason. Lelouch called her a pawn when she put her feelings on the line. He said what he had to so she'd get out of harm's way. She still wants to talk to him, so she knows better now.
Proof that Lelouch was the former leader of the Black Knights? The nobels acting abnormally?

If Schneizel can take down Lelouch with the black Knights in a span of two episodes, I don't think he would handle this any different. Looks like he suspected it as well so he had a month to plan.

That and an ending where Lelouch controls most of Britannia, would be boring since he already has all the best mecha pilots (Suzaku, and soon to be Kallen). It would make Gundam Seed Destiny's ending look like an imaginative thrill ride if Schneizel didn't have some advantage.

Imagine Gundam ending with Amuro and Char taking on Zeon, it wouldn't be fun it would be a slaughter.
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Old 2008-09-03, 00:06   Link #1319
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
Proof that Lelouch was the former leader of the Black Knights? The nobels acting abnormally?

If Schneizel can take down Lelouch with the black Knights in a span of two episodes, I don't think he would handle this any different. Looks like he suspected it as well so he had a month to plan.

That and an ending where Lelouch controls most of Britannia, would be boring since he already has all the best mecha pilots (Suzaku, and soon to be Kallen). It would make Gundam Seed Destiny's ending look like an imaginative thrill ride if Schneizel didn't have some advantage.

Imagine Gundam ending with Amuro and Char taking on Zeon, it wouldn't be fun it would be a slaughter.
Putting aside the fact that Schneizel outright says he will let Lelouch have Britannia, Lelouch now has the support of the entire Imperial family. They'll dismiss Schneizel's claims out of hand and won't be convinced otherwise.
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Old 2008-09-03, 00:22   Link #1320
Charred Knight
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Putting aside the fact that Schneizel outright says he will let Lelouch have Britannia, Lelouch now has the support of the entire Imperial family. They'll dismiss Schneizel's claims out of hand and won't be convinced otherwise.
This is Britannia where talking about, all Schneizel has to do is to somehow discredit Lelouch (easy enough, his control is based entirely on Geass of his relatives) and Lelouch is screwed.

Of course sadly, instead of a competent storyline where instead going to get Schneizel gloating about his ULTRA SECRET WEAPON that are always destroyed easily like in pretty much every Gundam series, and any veteran mecha fan will see coming miles away.

Code Geass problem is that its trying to tell too epic a storyline in 52 episodes, so instead of having character development, all where getting is plot twists, and since their only seems to be one remaining, I don't see how this can end excitingly.
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