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Old 2008-09-26, 02:51   Link #61
Mr. DJ
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hell, if Kubo can do it right, battle royal! Top 3 Espada + Fraccions vs. SS Captains + Lts
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Old 2008-09-26, 04:59   Link #62
billbrown
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Originally Posted by Amirali View Post
I don't get the concept that shounen heroes should "hold back" their better powers for strong opponents. That's like saying Roger Federer shouldn't bring his A-game against any player but Nadal. If you can squash someone quicker with your best power, why not?

Cool as it is when a shinigami says "you're not worthy of dying by my bankai" , that's really mere posturing. After the arrogance Yamachika and Ikkaku have shown recently, I'm glad to see a captain handling business efficiently.
You can't compare tennis to combat really. In professional tennis a man has to bring his A-game because the standard is there. Now let's say Roger Federer plays against a high schooler. Does he still have to bring his A-game to win? Should he exert himself, run full speed, hit as hard and accurately as he can, even though it's completely unnecessary?

No, because that's a waste of energy. And from there you get the common shounen action concept of holding back. Especially since most of these manga have limitations on how much energy people can exert (be it spirit, chakra, or normal physicality), it just doesn't make sense to go all-out from the beginning unless you know you stand no chance otherwise. A better example would be to take Luffy from OP; Should Luffy use Gear 2nd and 3rd at every chance he gets, even when he clearly overmatches his opponent? Of course not, because even they are his A-game techniques, both of them have significant drawbacks.

A lot of people ask, "Why didn't he just do that in the first place?" Well, that's unfair because we get watch from an omniscient 3rd person view. The person fighting doesn't know how things will pan out in the first place. The generally strategy is not to exert yourself early, or you end up worn out and at a tactical disadvantage later on.
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Old 2008-09-26, 05:38   Link #63
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Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
But I have to agree with the notion making rounds a Captain shouldnt be defeating a fraccion with a bankai .

If Po is indeed that strong why isnt he in the espada ...... he can still serve the old geezer be loyal n stuff being part of the espada
guess he wanted to end it fast, and he wanted to rub it into that punk arrancar's face. Koma: "I'M BIGGER THAN YOU, BITCH!!!!!!!"
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Old 2008-09-26, 06:04   Link #64
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"size isn't everything...oh wait lol, noob!"

*pwns Po*
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Old 2008-09-26, 06:09   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Captain Yoruichi View Post
Either Barragan himself will fight, or Stark or Halibel will send in their Fraccion. That seems like it would be the most likely scenario unless Kubo actually goes back to the Ichigo v. Ulquiorra fight.
I wonder did Halibel brought along with her the 3 fraccion she has that was shown during the grimjaw/ichigo fight....cause they look fodder to me with there lame personalities which is identicle to ukitates seated officers.
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Old 2008-09-26, 10:03   Link #66
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Old 2008-09-26, 11:45   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Ichimaru View Post
If Ulqi is really a VL, then ichigo has to seriously lose to really show how strong the VL are. Ichigo doesnt need another lame powerup cause his a vizard atm, which is equal to VL, all he needs to do is home in his skills.
I agree and disagree here. I agree, as I previously stated, that Ichigo needs to lose to Ulqi if he is a VL. It would just downplay the strength of the VL's too much for Ichigo to beat one now. I mean he barely beat Grimmjow so how is he going to beat a VL unless plotkai occurs as usual. But I disagree that Ichigo won't need another powerup. He just isn't strong enough yet. You are assuming Vizard is equal to VL but I would be disappointed greatly if VL weren't much stronger than the Vizards (after all only Shinji and Ichigo really look powerful out of the Vizards). The only way that I can see Vizards turning out to be VL level is if Urahara or Yoruichi (or Aizen, Gin, and Tousen for that matter) is actually a Vizard!!
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Old 2008-09-26, 12:08   Link #68
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Originally Posted by DjTrizz View Post
"size isn't everything...oh wait lol, noob!"
Spoiler:


Good Chapter. Seems like Komamura could beat Po without even shikai and goes to bankai only for show =]
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Old 2008-09-26, 12:50   Link #69
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Okay... So I'll admit Koma's bankai is pretty badass looking. It looks kind of like a massive medieval night. When I look at Po all I can think of is that children's song... "Baby beluga in the deep blue sea... swims so far and he swims so free..."

And just to stay on point, because there is far too much OT-ness going around, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with a hairy chest and size absolutely matters. It just means you're more of a man is all.
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Old 2008-09-26, 13:21   Link #70
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Originally Posted by Langus View Post
It just means you're more of a man is all.
Komamura's not a man; He's a BEAST!

Grr!
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Old 2008-09-26, 14:43   Link #71
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When I see Koma's bankai, I keep waiting for Seijuro Hiko to pop out of nowhere and take him down!!! (for Rurouni Kenshin fans!!)
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Old 2008-09-26, 14:58   Link #72
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Originally Posted by billbrown View Post
No, because that's a waste of energy. And from there you get the common shounen action concept of holding back. Especially since most of these manga have limitations on how much energy people can exert (be it spirit, chakra, or normal physicality), it just doesn't make sense to go all-out from the beginning unless you know you stand no chance otherwise. A better example would be to take Luffy from OP; Should Luffy use Gear 2nd and 3rd at every chance he gets, even when he clearly overmatches his opponent? Of course not, because even they are his A-game techniques, both of them have significant drawbacks.

A lot of people ask, "Why didn't he just do that in the first place?" Well, that's unfair because we get watch from an omniscient 3rd person view. The person fighting doesn't know how things will pan out in the first place. The generally strategy is not to exert yourself early, or you end up worn out and at a tactical disadvantage later on.
Tell this to D-roy, Byakuya when he fought espada #7, espada #7 when he fought byakuya(he could have gone for Byakuya's head and gone for the instant kill), Ichigo when he fought the Privaron, Hitsuyaga, Matsumoto, and Renji when they fought with limiters on, Koma when he attacked Aizen (he said Bankai, but was owned before it could manifest), Kenpachi when he fought Noi, Ikakku in both of his last 2 fights, and so forth

All of these characters charged into battle without their A-game and all of them either recieved a serious amount of unnecessary damage, or completely lost or sometimes even killed... in each case they put their lives at serious risk by not using their A-game from the start.... with only a slight difference in the situations some characters could have killed/beaten before they could bring their A-game (see: D-roy), and in other cases some characters could have won or atleast stood a ghost of a chance if they used their A-game from the get go.

You have to ask, in which case would a captain waste more energy, health and be at a disadvantage in the long run... using Bankai for just a few seconds and giving the enemy no chance to attack, or fighting with Shikai for several minutes where the enemy might have enough skill to do some damage before being killed? Quite frankly, the negatives of holding back far outweigh the negatives of going all out from the get go... not to mention that that i don't think we have seen much of anything on the limits of Bankai
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Old 2008-09-26, 15:03   Link #73
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As far as anyone knows, the Captains of the Soul Society are very proficient and efficient at the usage of their bankai, having mastered it with decades of training (Save for Kenpachi, of course)...Hitsugaya seems to have a limit of some sort to his own bankai (Shown by the pedals that float behind him that disintegrate over the course of it's release), understandable since he's still at a relatively young age, but even Hitsugaya seems to be able to weld bankai without personal repercussion...I don't think bankai really wears out the user as much as the actual fighting and exertion of spiritual pressure do...
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Old 2008-09-26, 15:11   Link #74
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by MidnightViper88 View Post
Hitsugaya seems to have a limit of some sort to his own bankai (Shown by the pedals that float behind him that disintegrate over the course of it's release), understandable since he's still at a relatively young age, but even Hitsugaya seems to be able to weld bankai without personal repercussion...
Actually, his "limit" is made rather null during the Luppi fight where he pointed out that he can regerate the petals and his Bankai so long as their is water around... which is pretty broad since water is right their in the air, along with inside trees and plants

i think the only time i recall seeing a shimgami having trouble calling their Bankai was when they are close to death/dying... like in the case of Renji vs Byakuya
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Old 2008-09-26, 15:20   Link #75
MidnightViper88
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
i think the only time i recall seeing a shimgami having trouble calling their Bankai was when they are close to death/dying... like in the case of Renji vs Byakuya
Well, in that case, Renji wasn't nearly as efficient in wielding bankai because it seems like in context of the Bleach storyline, Renji has achieved bankai pretty recently...I think Renji tried to approach Ikkaku for bankai training, which means that Ikkaku has achieved bankai long before Renji, and would also explain why Ikkaku seems to be able to defeat an enemy with bankai with relative ease compared to Renji (Though Ikkaku notes his bankai's edges are brittle, showing he still isn't up to the level a more proficient and experienced Captain would be with their bankai, also noted in the battle between Renji and Byakuya's bankai)...

Ichigo need not apply, since he's a n00b that breaks all known laws of physics, so bankai logic isn't the same with him (Though he's still in the same boat as Ikkaku and Renji)...
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Old 2008-09-26, 17:23   Link #76
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
You have to ask, in which case would a captain waste more energy, health and be at a disadvantage in the long run... using Bankai for just a few seconds and giving the enemy no chance to attack, or fighting with Shikai for several minutes where the enemy might have enough skill to do some damage before being killed? Quite frankly, the negatives of holding back far outweigh the negatives of going all out from the get go... not to mention that that i don't think we have seen much of anything on the limits of Bankai
I partially agree. I think the way some of the characters hold back, like Ikkaku, is mostly just bravado and it's reckless to not use an such ability when life is at stake. However, I can see why the captains use bankai with discretion (besides just dramatic reasons). It's probably not wise to make a habit of showing all the cards at once. Against a very powerful opponent, the element of surprise could be just as important as the added boost of power and revealing bankai at the proper moment could be more of an advantage than just releasing from the get go.

Also, if the enemy is clever, they may be able to use information from seeing bankai powers to develop tactics against it, like Szyael did. It's hard to determine exactly who could be watching and what they could do with info, so it's probably better to avoid using that power unnecessarily altogether.

In Koma's case, I think it was pretty justified to "test the waters" before using bankai. Afterall, Po only beat a 3rd seat, no need to assume bankai is needed immediately. After taking a blow, He found that Po's strength was nothing special, but he was enough of a pest in released form to warrant using bankai.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightViper88 View Post
but even Hitsugaya seems to be able to weld bankai without personal repercussion...I don't think bankai really wears out the user as much as the actual fighting and exertion of spiritual pressure do...
Seems like it, but I think I remember Ichigo mentioning something about how staying in bankai form was wearing on him after he fought Dol. Anyways, I think that seems right.
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Old 2008-09-26, 17:46   Link #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amirali View Post
I don't get the concept that shounen heroes should "hold back" their better powers for strong opponents. That's like saying Roger Federer shouldn't bring his A-game against any player but Nadal. If you can squash someone quicker with your best power, why not?

Cool as it is when a shinigami says "you're not worthy of dying by my bankai" , that's really mere posturing. After the arrogance Yamachika and Ikkaku have shown recently, I'm glad to see a captain handling business efficiently.
That's exactly what I'm thinking =/


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Originally Posted by TeNMaN View Post
When I see Koma's bankai, I keep waiting for Seijuro Hiko to pop out of nowhere and take him down!!! (for Rurouni Kenshin fans!!)
lol =DDD


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichimaru View Post
Cause Chad knows his limit in terms of power and how long he could go toe to toe with an opponent.

if komo was that confident in beating PO, why didnt he played around with him.
Because that's not what a soldier is supposed to do

-

Great chapter, as expected. One hit kill from bankai, good stuff =D
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Old 2008-09-26, 17:49   Link #78
TOP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichimaru View Post
if komo was that confident in beating PO, why didnt he played around with him.
Not everyone is a sadist such as Kenpachi.

I'm glad Komamura used Bankai. Ended the fight faster!
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Old 2008-09-26, 19:32   Link #79
Jays
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Koma Koma went for the double wammy on this one, tosses him like a rag doll, and shows how he wields a "big stick"!
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Old 2008-09-26, 19:43   Link #80
neji-kun
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Tell this to D-roy, Byakuya when he fought espada #7, espada #7 when he fought byakuya(he could have gone for Byakuya's head and gone for the instant kill), Ichigo when he fought the Privaron, Hitsuyaga, Matsumoto, and Renji when they fought with limiters on, Koma when he attacked Aizen (he said Bankai, but was owned before it could manifest), Kenpachi when he fought Noi, Ikakku in both of his last 2 fights, and so forth

All of these characters charged into battle without their A-game and all of them either recieved a serious amount of unnecessary damage, or completely lost or sometimes even killed... in each case they put their lives at serious risk by not using their A-game from the start.... with only a slight difference in the situations some characters could have killed/beaten before they could bring their A-game (see: D-roy), and in other cases some characters could have won or atleast stood a ghost of a chance if they used their A-game from the get go.

You have to ask, in which case would a captain waste more energy, health and be at a disadvantage in the long run... using Bankai for just a few seconds and giving the enemy no chance to attack, or fighting with Shikai for several minutes where the enemy might have enough skill to do some damage before being killed? Quite frankly, the negatives of holding back far outweigh the negatives of going all out from the get go... not to mention that that i don't think we have seen much of anything on the limits of Bankai
Why did you not address the tennis analogy billbrown presented? If Barragans other three fraccion were presented as opponents capable of being defeated with shikai or less, why was it "necessary" for a Bankai to be used to defeat Po? Furthermore, if you are to imply that Koma's Bankai was indeed "necessary" to end the fight quickly why did Koma not activate his Bankai the second the fight started? The situation is of Logical Fallacy.
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