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Old 2008-09-26, 19:59   Link #81
Anima
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Komamura's Badass!
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Old 2008-09-26, 20:20   Link #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billbrown View Post
A lot of people ask, "Why didn't he just do that in the first place?" Well, that's unfair because we get watch from an omniscient 3rd person view. The person fighting doesn't know how things will pan out in the first place. The generally strategy is not to exert yourself early, or you end up worn out and at a tactical disadvantage later on.
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I partially agree. I think the way some of the characters hold back, like Ikkaku, is mostly just bravado and it's reckless to not use an such ability when life is at stake. However, I can see why the captains use bankai with discretion (besides just dramatic reasons). It's probably not wise to make a habit of showing all the cards at once. Against a very powerful opponent, the element of surprise could be just as important as the added boost of power and revealing bankai at the proper moment could be more of an advantage than just releasing from the get go.
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Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
I disagree, if you continuously bring your A-game or your trump card to a battle then somebody can analyze it (Ishida and Renji) then find a way around it (Szayel) instead it is better to hold the element of surprise instead of showing every enemy that can lay their hands on you your special attack.
SlayerX presented reasoning and past fights to show holding back bankai bites you in the ass. But on the other hand, holding back bankai might be good for the surprise and secrecy factor. Each approach has it's pros and cons; neither is universally superior. These captains are the battle veterans; I guess we can trust them to decide their strategy intelligently according to opponent.

Interestingly,back in SS Komamura was extremely reluctant to use Bankai, even telling Kenpachi that he was not worthy of it. It was only when Zaraki nearly killed Tousen that we saw him bring out the giant.

Why would Koma feel Po merits an immediate bankai, while Kenpachi doesn't deserve it :s?

Last edited by Amirali; 2008-09-26 at 22:56.
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Old 2008-09-26, 20:37   Link #83
neji-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amirali View Post
SlayerX presented reasoning and past fights to show holding back bankai can bite you in the ass. However, holding back bankai might be good for the surprise and secrecy factor. There are pros and cons, but as Bill Brown says these captains are the battle veterans; one would hope they decide their strategy intelligently. At least not on basis of machismo.

Interestingly,back in SS Komamura was extremely reluctant to use Bankai, even telling Kenpachi that he was not worthy of it. It was only when Zaraki nearly killed Tousen that we saw him bring out the giant. I'm not quite sure what inspired Koma's newfound eagerness to end battles quickly, but I'm pleased to see it.
I understand your reasoning, but not when there should be a clear cut difference in power. Logic would imply a captain would'nt need to use bankai on a fraccion.
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Old 2008-09-26, 22:12   Link #84
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As far as I see it Komamura using Bankai wasn't necessary as much as it was reactionary. Why let the fight progress and turn into something of larger proportion than should be, when it was imperative for him to take care of what was needed to and continue about on what he's there for initially. No need for irrelevant squandering when there is a more important situation to be dealt with.

Do I think Komamura would of liked to do this without using Bankai? Probably yes, but the situation in itself probably changed the moment Po punched him halfway through town and then released. Which might be a testament to how these few Espadas and some of their Fraccion might warrant atleast some consideration. I don't think him releasing his Bankai will strain or affect his capabilities in the fight with the Arrancar or that he gave away his trump card since there could be more to his Bankai than shown.
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Old 2008-09-26, 22:37   Link #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neji-kun View Post
Why did you not address the tennis analogy billbrown presented? If Barragans other three fraccion were presented as opponents capable of being defeated with shikai or less, why was it "necessary" for a Bankai to be used to defeat Po?
Depends on your definition of "necessary"...
if you simply mean defeat Po... then no...
But if we mean defeat Po without loosing any health at all, then ya, probably...

Can you tell me with strong certainty that if Koma or any other captain had used thier Shikai against Po that Po would NOT have managed to get off even a single strike against the captain? What if instead of freezing in shock of Koma's Bankai, Po had continued to fire his Cero and managed to atleast graze Koma... the power could have been enough to leave some damage... One strike is all it could take to injure the captain in question... something like a busted arm would be very damning during the REAL fight agaisnt the espada... or hell, what if Po had aimed his attack at the poles that are protecting the town, the extra minute or two Koma could have spent defeating him with Shikai could have resulted with Po dying and opening up the town at the same time

i guess i shouldn't call it "necessary", so much as it was the smarter, more "rational" thing to do...

Quote:
Furthermore, if you are to imply that Koma's Bankai was indeed "necessary" to end the fight quickly why did Koma not activate his Bankai the second the fight started? The situation is of Logical Fallacy.
For the same logically fallacy that the many fighters i mentioned before did not use their Bankai right away; you could say the same thing about ANY of them... he took a moment to be stupid and arrogant... if he had underestimated Po for even a bit that punch Po used could have broken a rib which would come back to haunt him during the espada fight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amirali View Post
SlayerX presented reasoning and past fights to show holding back bankai bites you in the ass. But on the other hand, holding back bankai might be good for the surprise and secrecy factor. Each approach has it's pros and cons; neither is universally superior. These captains are the battle veterans; I guess we can trust them to decide their strategy intelligently according to opponent.
The secrecy is a good point, but at the same time i can't help but feel it is just a bit undermined by the fact that the captains Bankai's SHOULDN"T even be a secret from the epsada... i mean, Aizen should know all of their shikai's and Bankai's; it's nothing short of becoming stupid for the sake of plot that he did not brief his minions on their opponents. You'd THINK that he would have called them into a 10 minute strategy secession where he goes over the strengths and weaknesses of the srongest shimigami... by all means, SS should not have anything hidden

Seriously, that one fraccion knew Kira well enough to know that he was disowned by Gin but did not know that entering close range combat with him was a very good way to get you're ass kicked.

though your point still stands regardless of such plot holes... unless you take in the possibility that SS was under assumption that Aizen would have briefed his men... though considering that this error in judgement for Aizen is the result of Plot hole, i doubt Kubo thought that far to have SS make assumptions like that...
Quote:
Interestingly,back in SS Komamura was extremely reluctant to use Bankai, even telling Kenpachi that he was not worthy of it. It was only when Zaraki nearly killed Tousen that we saw him bring out the giant.

Who would Koma feels Po merits an immediate bankai, while Kenpachi doesn't deserve it :s?
it's probably a personality thing... Kenpachi may be more powerful, but Koma might actually consider him lower than Po on a personality level

Though thinking about it, the REAL waste was the fact that Koma showed his Bankai while fighting Kenpachi... Had he not used it it would have made this last chapter pretty sweet... and it would have been made even sweeter since not seeing Koma use his Bankai would have made Aizen vs Koma a real teaser since he got owned right before his Bankai could manifest; we'd be all like "we were so close to seeing it!"... if not for that moment against kenpachi, we would have never expected Koma's Bankai to be that of a gigantic, armored samurai... it would have been a pretty awesome reveal at such a time even if it was against a lowly fraccion (though then again, its probably sweeter to see a captain first release and own something fast than it is to see him release and then get owned)

Last edited by Slayerx; 2008-09-26 at 23:10.
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Old 2008-09-26, 23:10   Link #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
The secrecy is a good point, but at the same time i can't help but feel it is just a bit undermined by the fact that the captains Bankai's SHOULDN"T even be a secret from the epsada... i mean, Aizen should know all of their shikai's and Bankai's; it's nothing short of becoming stupid for the sake of plot that he did not brief his minions on their opponents. You'd THINK that he would have called them into a 10 minute strategy secession where he goes over the strengths and weaknesses of the srongest shimigami...
That's a fair point. Other than Szayel, all the arrancar we've seen fight so far know squat about the captains. For example, Noitorra was caught offguard by the Kenpachi eyepatch powerup and Zomari was clueless about the "area-effect" Senbonzakura attack. That means either Aizen is getting sloppy, or he really doesn't care about the success of ranks 5-99. Interestingly, Dordonni knew all about Ichigo's powers, which indicates that the privaron may have been quite close to Aizen at one point.

However, even the captains don't know the details of every bankai. For example, Kenpachi was completely surprised when he faced Tousen's bankai. Also, Ichigo was only the second person to see Byakuya's bankai second form. So, I'm sure the captains have a few tricks Aizen wouldn't have seen before.
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Seriously, that one fraccion knew Kira well enough to know that he was disowned by Gin but did not know that entering close range combat with him was a very good way to get you're ass kicked.
To be fair, Kira did say only Hinamori and Renji knew of his shikai. It wouldn't surprise me if Gin never bothered to ask him about it.

It would be a nice detail if the top 3 espada fighting turned out to be well-briefed by Aizen. Given that the shinigami know nothing of their opponents' abilities, it's a plausible way to compensate the imbalanced numbers.
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Old 2008-09-27, 00:50   Link #87
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Originally Posted by Amirali View Post
However, even the captains don't know the details of every bankai. For example, Kenpachi was completely surprised when he faced Tousen's bankai. Also, Ichigo was only the second person to see Byakuya's bankai second form. So, I'm sure the captains have a few tricks Aizen wouldn't have seen before.
Well your comparing the fighting loving kenpachi who actually takes pains to make fights harder to the cold and tactical Aizen who seems to always expect everything... Really Kenpachi wouldn't want to know what secret moves his enemy has, that would make the fight less fun... Aizen on the other hand makes it his business to know everything that's going on

And really a "few tricks" is completely different from not knowing anything... Byakuya may have kept the true form of his bankai secret, but we saw no secrets about his normal Bankai; the same Bankai that was used to wipe out Zomari... in fact the shikai release of a zapakato is part of a ceremony as for when Aizen first exposed everyone to his shikai
Quote:
To be fair, Kira did say only Hinamori and Renji knew of his shikai. It wouldn't surprise me if Gin never bothered to ask him about it.
y'know now that you mention it, it is rather strange that Kira could get away with not letting anyone in SS know his Shikai... at the least, you would think that SS would want to keep the abilities of their shimigami on record... i mean, did yama assign kira to the pillar based soely on the fact that his battle record said he got results, or did he know kira in more detail and know the nature of his shikai and powers? hell if Aizen and Gin were gonna use Kira as a pawn you'd also think they'd like to know exactly what they were dealing with...
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Old 2008-09-27, 02:05   Link #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Seems like it, but I think I remember Ichigo mentioning something about how staying in bankai form was wearing on him after he fought Dol. Anyways, I think that seems right.
I don't know; Ichigo gained bankai pretty quickly, but hasn't trained with it long enough, so it would make sense if Ichigo isn't as proficient with bankai than Renji or Ikkaku are...I don't know if Ichigo said that sustaining bankai often wore him out, but I do remember something about Ichigo saying that he didn't want to use bankai on just every enemy he comes across, which is why he was reluctant to go bankai, and then Vizard when fighting against Dordonii (If that's who I correctly assume if that's who you're referring to since I don't know who this "Dol" is)...In either case, that reluctance extended what could've been a really short battle over a lengthened period of time against a mere Privaron, though he still made do at bankai/Vizard power against Grimmjow, an Espada...
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Old 2008-09-27, 04:13   Link #89
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And the best point is the abandoning of the towers, which once more proves that this fight is a filler....
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Old 2008-09-27, 04:27   Link #90
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Originally Posted by Konpachi View Post
guess he wanted to end it fast, and he wanted to rub it into that punk arrancar's face. Koma: "I'M BIGGER THAN YOU, BITCH!!!!!!!"
oh ya, and also wanted to stop that "yawn". Also, i would like to add that Koma looks way cooler now, with his new cloak and the armour stuff.

>__> stupid rule on non-full page postings, now i gotta go photoshop and upload it...

anyone else notice this?



Dis here's a link. Betcha didnt know that!

Last edited by Konpachi; 2008-09-27 at 04:52.
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Old 2008-09-27, 09:09   Link #91
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Well as much as I like Bleach I am getting a little tired of these "even matches". Beauty Guy with kido ability against beauty arancar with kido ability. Arancar with heavy feathers VS "make things heavy" Zanpakuto. Genuious Shinigami VS Genious Arancar and now giant Arancar VS giant shinigami. I prefered the matches with actual DIFFERENT abilities on both sides.

Well since this is all filler I don't care that it is just Arancar apears gets beaten after 2 chapters, Arancar apears gets beaten after 2 chapters, Arancar apears gets beaten after 2 chapters, Arancar apears gets beaten after 2 chapters *yawn*

But If we will now see the Top 4 Espade just get beaten I am realy pissed. I realy like Bleach but the bad guys also should be allowed to win a fight once in a while. If not where is the climax?
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Old 2008-09-27, 17:19   Link #92
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I thought the one who take action is Iba><.But koma2 awesome he defeated large size enemy
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Old 2008-09-27, 21:19   Link #93
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Though thinking about it, the REAL waste was the fact that Koma showed his Bankai while fighting Kenpachi... Had he not used it it would have made this last chapter pretty sweet... and it would have been made even sweeter since not seeing Koma use his Bankai would have made Aizen vs Koma a real teaser since he got owned right before his Bankai could manifest; we'd be all like "we were so close to seeing it!"... if not for that moment against kenpachi, we would have never expected Koma's Bankai to be that of a gigantic, armored samurai... it would have been a pretty awesome reveal at such a time even if it was against a lowly fraccion
Eh, even if this was his bankai's debut, it would seem like sort of a waste because it seems like Koma's destined fight is against Tousen. If anything, that would be the fight were revealing his bankai would get the best dramatic effect. But like Byakuya's Senbonzakura, Koma's bankai may have more forms/powers that could be revealed later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amirali
That means either Aizen is getting sloppy, or he really doesn't care about the success of ranks 5-99. Interestingly, Dordonni knew all about Ichigo's powers, which indicates that the privaron may have been quite close to Aizen at one point.
Dol didn't know anything about Ichigo's powers, all he knew was that Ichigo had bankai and he wanted him to release it. But it's interesting that even Ulq really had no idea of Ichigo's power or abilities when he first encountered him. Apparently, the only detail that Aizen gave him was that Ichigo's bankai was black. Of course, Aizen probably really didn't have an idea of Ichigo's strength either since he didn't even encounter Ichigo until the end of SS arc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightViper88 View Post
I don't know; Ichigo gained bankai pretty quickly, but hasn't trained with it long enough, so it would make sense if Ichigo isn't as proficient with bankai than Renji or Ikkaku are...I don't know if Ichigo said that sustaining bankai often wore him out, but I do remember something about Ichigo saying that he didn't want to use bankai on just every enemy he comes across, which is why he was reluctant to go bankai, and then Vizard when fighting against Dordonii (If that's who I correctly assume if that's who you're referring to since I don't know who this "Dol" is)...In either case, that reluctance extended what could've been a really short battle over a lengthened period of time against a mere Privaron, though he still made do at bankai/Vizard power against Grimmjow, an Espada...
(Dol doni, "Dordoni" the spellings are interchangable)

No doubt. I'm not saying that it's not better to go all out at times. Dol was an opponent that would've been better dealt with if Ichigo had gone bankai immediately against. Many battles would've been easier (though less entertaining) that way, but that's still not to say that there is need for captains to pull out bankai against any and every opponent just to be cautious.

Anyways, regardless of how it was done. I am very glad the four pillar subplot is done. Now we can get back to the Espada and the captains who have apparently just been standing there this whole time patiently waiting for the story to focus on them.
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Old 2008-09-28, 06:23   Link #94
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Not bad overall.

I saw some comments that Komamura's bankai was bigger than Po, but I didn't actually notice any panels where a clear comparison can be made?
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Old 2008-09-28, 10:16   Link #95
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If Ulqi is really a VL, then ichigo has to seriously lose to really show how strong the VL are. Ichigo doesnt need another lame powerup cause his a vizard atm, which is equal to VL, all he needs to do is home in his skills.
Agreed. Totally. Ulquiorra should bring Ichigo to his knees during this fight. And then Nothing short of Byakuya and Unohana teamed up with Ichigo should defeat Ulqui. Why Unohana? Because Unohana needs some smexification. She isn't given enough wow factor.

But she is definitely uber powerful since she IS one of the oldest captains, becoming a captain shortly after Ukitake and Shunsui themselves. She must have an awesome Shyunpo. And I'm sure her Shikai has some powerful combat abilities as well, like organ control, or something. I can totally imagine this:

[Scene: Ichigo just fell to his knees dramatically, holding himself up with his sword, and Ulquiorra stands, several superficial wounds, but nothing serious, blandly looking at Ichigo, hands in his pockets.

Then In an instant, he's gone, and reappears in front of Ichigo, his right hand extended, palm and fingers straightened out, beelining for his chest.]

At the last instant Ichigo dodges, by lunging off to the side, and as Ulguiorra passes through the area where Ichigo was just kneeling, he finds himself staring into the impassive eyes of none other than Kuchiki Byakuya, and his throat is pressing on the point of sealed Senbon Zakura.

But Byakuya can't cut him!!

Caught off guard Byakuya is vulnerable, seeing as his sword can't pose any threat to Ulquiorra, and Ulgui just ignores it and thrusts agains with his palm, this time for Byakuya's heart.

And then, suddenly: [scene: the next panel shows a blurred, moving shadow, and a speech bubble with a whisper of "Bankai".]

Next panel, a half page: Ulqui from behind in the background, and Unohana in the Foreground, several metres away, blur lines around her showing that she's now slowing down, composure fully maintained.

End of chapter: One frame showing Ulquiorra's eyes slightly wider than normal, and a long, bleeding wound from the bottom of his right eye, diagonally crossing the green tear mark, stopping at his chin, and resuming from his chest on the right side, down to approximately the end of his abdomen.

That would be cool, I guess...

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Originally Posted by Rawrz View Post
Thank god.Guess all captains show'd off enough and enough arrancar went down for now by cool words and attacks.I really hope we can catch a glimpse of Stark now.Im waiting for him to move since last christmas damn it.The old guy looks he is the first since he took the command.Yet still I hope Stark is the second no
Stark is actually the First Espada. It's pretty obvious: Remember when Barragan was Saying: "I'll take over now", the reactions were:

Halibel: Uneasy, and disagreeable, but reluctant to oppose, and her fraccion were obviously against it, but intimidated.

Stark: "Oh, yeah. Sure: no problem." Taking it cool and easy, but his Fraccion kicked him in the shin real hard, and glared at him. When he asked her why, she said "You know why" or something like that. In other words: She was implying that Stark was in a position to oppose Barragan, but his laziness made him not do it. Stark's fraccion, the girl hollow wasn't even fazed by the event of Barragan's Takeover. Tada: Stark = #1;

Halibel: Difficult to determine right now, but according to Shonen Law: Barragan started attacking first. in a scene where there are multiple, extremely powerful enemies, the most powerful MUST stand back, and they MUST fight last.

-Shonen constitution, Fifth Amendment.

Halibel most likely = #2, and Barragan = #3.

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Originally Posted by TeNMaN View Post
When I see Koma's bankai, I keep waiting for Seijuro Hiko to pop out of nowhere and take him down!!! (for Rurouni Kenshin fans!!)
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Old 2008-09-28, 11:52   Link #96
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I'm inclined to think that Koma's bankai was bigger than Po's guerilla-whale form, despite size discrepancies (Po looking tall as a 12 story building on Page 2, then looking half that next to Koma on page 13).

Koma looks like he was able to wrap his arms around Po's hand on page 8 and then throw him, then on page 17, the hand of the giant makes Koma really look small.
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Old 2008-09-28, 12:11   Link #97
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Originally Posted by holypanl View Post
But she is definitely uber powerful since she IS one of the oldest captains, becoming a captain shortly after Ukitake and Shunsui themselves. She must have an awesome Shyunpo. And I'm sure her Shikai has some powerful combat abilities as well, like organ control, or something. I can totally imagine this:



Unohana actually has been a captain longer than Ukitake and Shunsui. This was revealed in the short arc that revealed how the Vaizards came to be.
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Old 2008-09-28, 13:18   Link #98
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Unohana actually has been a captain longer than Ukitake and Shunsui. This was revealed in the short arc that revealed how the Vaizards came to be.
even more reason for smexification!!!!
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Old 2008-09-28, 16:55   Link #99
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my Bleach knowledge feels fuzzy...Shunsui and Ukitake were the first two Captains that graduated from the academy, so I guess that means Unohana was a Captain before that?
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Old 2008-09-28, 17:19   Link #100
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yeah Uno is the second oldest captain after Yamaji . In the Pendulum arc Shunshui/Uki addresses her as Senpai
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