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View Poll Results: Macross Frontier - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 133 39.82%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 81 24.25%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 32 9.58%
7 out of 10 : Good 27 8.08%
6 out of 10 : Average 11 3.29%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 10 2.99%
4 out of 10 : Poor 4 1.20%
3 out of 10 : Bad 3 0.90%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.30%
1 out of 10 : Painful 32 9.58%
Voters: 334. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-09-29, 04:07   Link #921
magnuskn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golthin View Post
8. I thought that Sheryl's fan were using immaturity too much to justify their hatred for ranka. Ranka was justified to be a few years behind her peers due to the traumatic events that happened to her, the director even came with dissociative Amnesia as reason for this and Sheryl's fan always shrug her condition.

9. and the Final but most important is that I believe NOBODY won, there are shippers from both sides that are still claiming victory.
Until we get a definite ending, Sheryl has already won. Ranka declaring that she is a sore loser doesnīt change anything.

Skipping your other points. But Sheryl has just as much of a traumatic past, and, hey, somehow she did mature into an amazing woman, instead of regressing into a childlike state of "mememememe!", like Ranka did. So, even objectively, Sheryl is a better person than Ranka. Hell, Sheryl doesnīt even have convenient amnesia to forget her sucky past, like Ranka, who most of the time was just in a loving home.

How some people always conveniently forget this here much discussed fact... itīs as if they had some agenda and were trying to push it on everybody. Tshk.
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Old 2008-09-29, 04:09   Link #922
Crimrui
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After watching with subs for a few times I guess the episode is not bad. What really blinded me was the triangle which wasn't fully resolved. But I still think that the overal experiance will be rated when I see the final episode/movie.

At least I have something to look forward to =)
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Old 2008-09-29, 04:32   Link #923
TwilightHack
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Originally Posted by golthin View Post
There are many differences between me and a sheryl's shippers. I don't see the subtle hints in episode 25 that say that sheryl won.
I am a Sheryl ship but I rarely, if ever, use my pink tinted goggles of delusion. Haven't had to.

Subtle hints/homages are for those who understand the Macross franchise, Macross Frontier is a 25th anniversary special after all. If you don't see them, its probably because you don't understand them.

Quote:
After episode 21, I thought sheryl had the victory in the bag. Before episode 21, I thought that Ranka was ahead. Now after episode 25, I believe it is just a reset and that both girls have a chance, but Sheryl still have a lead because of all the time she spent with Alto.
Two words: Pinball Machine.

How can we honestly give you credibility when you switch opinions every other ep when something seems to be going one way as opposed to the other?

Quote:
I was not "shipping" for sheryl to win,
But you did say she should win "or else", same difference.

Quote:
I have always have said that the "I am dying" card gave Sheryl too much of an advantage (something a Sheryl shipper will never acknowledge) over Ranka, but I understood that it couldn't be overlooked thus why I crowned sheryl the winner.
Greatest advantage? Hardly, the "I am dying" card was Sheryl's biggest weakness in the LT. Pity cards never bode well for those who play them because it forms a sort of fake attachment out of sorry... which take note, Sheryl did not want from anyone.

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I was not familiar with M7 until I read somewhere about it and after watching some episode and reading how ended I came to realize why this was left unresolved.
M7 was not a series about romance, it was mainly about music. The supposed triangle, Basara -> Mylene <- Gamlin was never "really" there. If there was any romance at all, it was geared towards the reunification of Max and Milia, the subtle Basara x Emilia, or the ever famous one, Basara and his guitar.

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You don't have to be a sheryl shipper to see that Sheryl should have ended with Alto after episode 21 and everything that happened in episode 22 thru 24. Only Ranka's Fans were in denial about it, you could say that Ranka's fans had more to be rejoiced about how the series ended than sheryl's fans.
So you proclaimed Sheryl should win after Ep 21 before the series was even over... that my friend is shipping. By no means rabid, but a ship yes.

Quote:
I still see many Sheryl's fans claiming victory when it is so obvious that nobody won.
Victory cannot outright be proclaimed, but the subtleties prove and point otherwise that Sheryl is on top.

Quote:
So to summarize what differentiate me and shipper from either of the two girls.

1. I don't hate Ranka or sheryl.
2. I believe Ranka was ahead of sheryl before episode 21.
3. I believe Sheryl's lead after episode 21 was so large that only a Hax could give us a RankaxAlto ending.
4. I don't see the "subtle" hints that give Sheryl a sure win in episode 25 (they are just homage to the previous series).
5. Alto's purpose was revived after he saved Ranka and also revived Ranka's hopes.
6. Alto has feelings for both girls, both romantic and of different types.
7. Sheryl's disease gave her such unfair advantage over Ranka that the director had to do a reset to be fair to Ranka after he took her out of the competition for so long to further his plot. The pity card + any feelings Alto had for Sheryl was so much.
8. I thought that Sheryl's fan were using immaturity too much to justify their hatred for ranka. Ranka was justified to be a few years behind her peers due to the traumatic events that happened to her, the director even came with dissociative Amnesia as reason for this and Sheryl's fan always shrug her condition.

9. and the Final but most important is that I believe NOBODY won, there are shippers from both sides that are still claiming victory.

Edit:I don't know if you misunderstood my previous post but if you go back, I said that I had crowned Sheryl the winner after episode 21. but episode 25 changed that.
Things that differentiate you from a shipper? Let me address these.

1) I don't hate either, either.
2) So you shipped Ranka then pre 21, good for you.
3) And then you changed your stance to Sheryl after ep 21, great.
4) I addressed the subtle hints issue above.
5) There you are speculating for Ranka.
6) That is also speculation considering Alto's dialogue in ep 23.
7) I beg to differ, Sheryl's disease was her greatest weakness because so many things could have gone wrong. I already addressed the issue of pity above.
8) And while Ranka was all nice nice in a good home with her onii-chan, Sheryl was digging through the dumpsters by herself, ignoredon Galaxy. Tell me now, how did Sheryl turn out? Not bashing anyone, but take that into perspective.
9) There we have you changing your opinion again.

So in the end, you clearly shipped one girl or the other at different points in time up until the very end of ep 25. At which point you believe that the whole LT magically reset and that Sheryl and Ranka are on an even level.

That statement is definitely not shipper goggles... but that's honestly delusional thinking in the simple fact that you discredit all development in episodes prior.
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Last edited by TwilightHack; 2008-09-29 at 05:14.
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Old 2008-09-29, 04:39   Link #924
Westlo
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Oh ffs Sheryl is in the lead, you don't see the NBA champions the Celtics or Premier League champions Manchester United challenging their runners up, it's them who get challenged! Ranka issuing the challenge in the first place speaks fucking volumes...

While Sheryl is gazing at Alto flying in the sky with a look of contentment and understanding Ranka looks at her and is downcast before she issues the cliche 3rd wheel challenge of "I won't lose". Yeah sure Ranka you won't, and neither will Yoshia from Shana and Siesta from Znt and Tsukiumi from Sekirei, Tessa from FMP and oh god the fucking list goes on.

Also people who think Alto saluted both are morons, it was obvious enough on streams and just watching #ggs rip it was painfully obvious.
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Old 2008-09-29, 05:22   Link #925
golthin
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Until we get a definite ending, Sheryl has already won. Ranka declaring that she is a sore loser doesnīt change anything.
@joachim
see joachim! Magnuskn is a prime example of a real rabid sheryl fan. Most of them, like you said weren't happy till the last episode came out . now that Alto didn't choose anyone they are claiming victory.
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Old 2008-09-29, 05:33   Link #926
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by golthin View Post
@joachim
see joachim! Magnuskn is a prime example of a real rabid sheryl fan. Most of them, like you said weren't happy till the last episode came out . now that Alto didn't choose anyone they are claiming victory.
We already have won, so what exactly am I fighting against? I mean, c'mon, give me the *arguments* for Ranka. If one minute before the end of a soccer game one team leads by 10 to 1, and the camera cuts out, the losing team doesnīt get to claim that *they* won, because nobody saw the ending.

Give me some real evidence which points towards him tilting again towards Ranka, or stop stating the "They didnīt showed Alto choosing one girl, so itīs a draw." argument.
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Old 2008-09-29, 06:12   Link #927
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Nice epi and can say as best epi [ full action epi xD]
and sad it has end
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Old 2008-09-29, 06:18   Link #928
golthin
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Originally Posted by TwilightHack View Post

So in the end, you clearly shipped one girl or the other at different points in time up until the very end of ep 25. At which point you believe that the whole LT magically reset and that Sheryl and Ranka are on an even level.

That statement is definitely not shipper goggles... but that's honestly delusional thinking in the simple fact that you discredit all development in episodes prior.
I think you have a misconception of what a shipper is! a true shipper stay with his ship even when it sinks. I have been a shipper for many pairings and have lost my good share. Just because i was not shipping for a pairing doesn't exclude me from having an opinion about who i think had the better chance of winning. I shipped during gurren-laggan,Code geass, shuffle, clannad, true tears, Kimi ga Nozomu Eien , Kashimashi, Myself; Yourself, kimikiss just to list a few.
the last 4 in the list were the last time that my pairing won. Kashimashi is a weird case, but i still won at the very end.

I am going to ask you a question.... Do you think sheryl won after episode 25? I think nobody won at the end. For the most, sheryl's fan believe that until otherwise stated, that sheryl won.
I am not sure what Ranka's fan believe because they have not been as vocal, last thing i heard was that some were saying that Alto chose ranka because he was reaching with his right hand and Ranka was on the right

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
We already have won, so what exactly am I fighting against? I mean, c'mon, give me the *arguments* for Ranka. If one minute before the end of a soccer game one team leads by 10 to 1, and the camera cuts out, the losing team doesnīt get to claim that *they* won, because nobody saw the ending.

Give me some real evidence which points towards him tilting again towards Ranka, or stop stating the "They didnīt showed Alto choosing one girl, so itīs a draw." argument.
Love is not like a Soccer game! you can be 100 to 1 point in the game of love and in instant the other opponent can score 110 points in the last second. we should have learned that from shows like Canvas2.
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Old 2008-09-29, 06:24   Link #929
TwilightHack
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Originally Posted by golthin View Post
Well, sheryl rabid fans are claiming victory now. I guess Sheryl's fan knew Kawamori better than me and were a little worried about being trolled. I guess they were right
We picked up on the homages and subtleties, you didn't. It's not our problem you can't or don't want to pick up on them... they're right in front of you, on the screen.

Edit: To be specific, homages (DYRL and TV alike), cultural references, as well as BGM and others.

And admit it, we all got trolled... I as a Sheryl fan was steeling myself for a Ranka ending but instead got a lame no conclusion. That affected me more than if Ranka would have won.

Also, you're a prime example of SK's troll mastery. You jumped ship when things didn't work with Ranka and boarded the the Sheryl ship. Then in the end you jumped both ships due to SK's trolling and can't comprehend the fact that the triangle was over in ep 24 and it was only more subtly confirmed in ep 25 by salute homage.

Quote:
About Ranka's challenge to sheryl, it is just challange, something she never did openly and now she is ready to fight regardless of her opponent being sheryl. sheryl's fan take her words as sign that Ranka knows she is losing, but at least she wants to fight to the bitter end. It is not over until Alto-hime sings
Yeah she is losing, why deny it? During Ranka's absence Sheryl and Alto have developed a deep connection, shared kisses (even as half-assed some were), and have been living together for some time.

How she's going to pull a victory out of that is beyond me. That would be the biggest "wtf" upset in LT history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by golthin View Post
@joachim
see joachim! Magnuskn is a prime example of a real rabid sheryl fan. Most of them, like you said weren't happy till the last episode came out . now that Alto didn't choose anyone they are claiming victory.
And you're a prime example of the most indecisive shipper out there.

Sheryl ships didn't believe it was over in ep 22 or ep 23 because of the context in which ep 22's Sheryl x Alto scene played. By all means, 23 actually instilled a lot of doubt into some of us. But then Ep 24 came along and remedied the ep 22/23 doubt. Ep 25 then served to reinforce ep 24 and Sheryl's x Alto's bond.

To me, Sheryl ships can't claim outright victory, but we can sure put up a damn good front as to why because of what has been given/hinted to us in actual scenes... and also by Kawamori's own preferences from history.
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Old 2008-09-29, 06:28   Link #930
SaintessHeart
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Just leave the love triangle there. What is a Macross protagonist relationship without a threesome involved?
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Old 2008-09-29, 06:32   Link #931
magnuskn
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Love is not like a Soccer game! you can be 100 to 1 point in the game of love and in instant the other opponent can score 110 points in the last second. we should have learned that from shows like Canvas2.
Wasnīt Canvas 2 that show which people always cite when they want to reference a really sucky romance?

Still waiting for any evidence which points towards Ranka, and not towards Sheryl...
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Old 2008-09-29, 06:38   Link #932
golthin
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Wasnīt Canvas 2 that show which people always cite when they want to reference a really sucky romance?

Still waiting for any evidence which points towards Ranka, and not towards Sheryl...
Canvas2 is a show that did a 180 degree turn in the last 10 minutes of the show. you could say that there was a girl that was ahead 10-0 and in the last second the other girl scored 11 goals for the win, according to your soccer analogy.
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Old 2008-09-29, 06:46   Link #933
TwilightHack
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I think you have a misconception of what a shipper is! a true shipper stay with his ship even when it sinks. I have been a shipper for many pairings and have lost my good share. Just because i was not shipping for a pairing doesn't exclude me from having an opinion about who i think had the better chance of winning. I shipped during gurren-laggan,Code geass, shuffle, clannad, true tears, Kimi ga Nozomu Eien , Kashimashi, Myself; Yourself, kimikiss just to list a few.
the last 4 in the list were the last time that my pairing won. Kashimashi is a weird case, but i still won at the very end.
I've a good enough understanding of shipping to know a shipper (however subtle they may try to be) when I see one. You may not be a "true shipper" per say here in Macross, but you're definitely one that jumps on the bandwagon.

Which is why trying to discredit someone because they're a shipper, specifically Tak and Magnus, is like the "pot calling the kettle black".

How long will it be before you try to discredit me because I have opposing opinions and ship Sheryl?

Quote:
I am going to ask you a question.... Do you think sheryl won after episode 25? I think nobody won at the end. For the most, sheryl's fan believe that until otherwise stated, that sheryl won.
As I already stated, Sheryl ships can't claim outright victory due to the small crack in the door that was left open (which disappoints us greatly no doubt). But we can definitely point out the "factual" things that heavily imply Sheryl is already in the winners circle.

As for me, I am with the majority who believe that the LT is already over... with maybe a tiny, minuscule hint of doubt due to Kawamori's mastery at trolling.

Quote:
I am not sure what Ranka's fan believe because they have not been as vocal, last thing i heard was that some were saying that Alto chose ranka because he was reaching with his right hand and Ranka was on the right
Ranka ships have become sparse. Even on RC, the Ranka ships home port, there has been a stark drop in Ranka shipper numbers.

Quote:
Love is not like a Soccer game! you can be 100 to 1 point in the game of love and in instant the other opponent can score 110 points in the last second. we should have learned that from shows like Canvas2.
Ugh, the Canvas2 analogy again.

Kawamori's a troll alright, but stupid? Most definitely not.
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Old 2008-09-29, 06:54   Link #934
magnuskn
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What I want is some evidence which points to Sheryl not having won. If there is, and it is compelling, I donīt see why I couldnīt accept it.

Saying "Sheryl didnīt win, because Kawamori chose to not show it in the final episode" is too thin, because going by everything preceding ep 24, she already had it in the bag. Just not saying it outright, but never giving Ranka a leg up to get to even ground ( which didnīt happen in ep 25 ), is not enough.
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Old 2008-09-29, 07:13   Link #935
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Wow, this not having a clear winner really has you shipper's panties in a wad. Can we expect more of this debate to last till the movie comes out next year some time? Cause I don't know if you guys will be able to survive the flaming war. Mutually assured destruction of spirit in the end.

BTW no one has won. Sheryl has the favor. Ranka is behind. But the race is technically not over. You can speculate all you want but until Kawamori sings like a canary it's all up in the air with a Sheryl favorable wind.
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Old 2008-09-29, 07:25   Link #936
BetoJR
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Originally Posted by kilroy0097 View Post
BTW no one has won. Sheryl has the favor. Ranka is behind. But the race is technically not over. You can speculate all you want but until Kawamori sings like a canary it's all up in the air with a Sheryl favorable wind.
That's probably the best summary of the situation I've ever read stated. Good job, sir.
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Old 2008-09-29, 07:35   Link #937
Joachim
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i gave up,even my argument was being used against my own camp.. you are evil golth

Just to let you know, i myself think sheryl has not won "yet", but to say the triangle was being reseted, i have to disagree, its still in sheryl favour

what i was saying about even some sheryl fans didn't agree with your opinion that the LT was over in eps 23, its just to illustrate how you who looked like shipping sheryl since eps 23 (of course you're not.. you are a neutral right?) and didn't like how sheryl fans now concluding that sheryl has greater favour in LT than ranka was actually doing the same thing from episode 23 until now which somehow changed your whole opinion and you started to force them on

like i said before.. its nice eh being neutral, attacking any camps at your own will
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Old 2008-09-29, 07:44   Link #938
golthin
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Originally Posted by kilroy0097 View Post
Wow, this not having a clear winner really has you shipper's panties in a wad. Can we expect more of this debate to last till the movie comes out next year some time? Cause I don't know if you guys will be able to survive the flaming war. Mutually assured destruction of spirit in the end.

BTW no one has won. Sheryl has the favor. Ranka is behind. But the race is technically not over. You can speculate all you want but until Kawamori sings like a canary it's all up in the air with a Sheryl favorable wind.
Like some one said, best summary of the situation! I agree 100%!
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Old 2008-09-29, 08:04   Link #939
TwilightHack
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Originally Posted by kilroy0097 View Post
Wow, this not having a clear winner really has you shipper's panties in a wad. Can we expect more of this debate to last till the movie comes out next year some time? Cause I don't know if you guys will be able to survive the flaming war. Mutually assured destruction of spirit in the end.
Shippers panties in a wad? By no means. I'm perfectly content with the way things are and will wait patiently till the movie is released.

I came in banging on doors due to some failings on both sides of the fence. And the fact that well... trying to discredit someone because they're a shipper, even though they have good points, is pretty much bs in its highest form.

Quote:
BTW no one has won. Sheryl has the favor. Ranka is behind. But the race is technically not over. You can speculate all you want but until Kawamori sings like a canary it's all up in the air with a Sheryl favorable wind.
Though I have my own beliefs about the LT, what you said there describes the situation exactly.

Which is why the Sheryl camp, even though ahead, can't outright, 100% for sure, proclaim Sheryl's win.
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Old 2008-09-29, 08:07   Link #940
Natsuki Hyuga
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Like some one said, best summary of the situation! I agree 100%!
Err... But you did say the LT was resetted in Ep. 25. What the hell...?
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