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Old 2009-06-28, 18:01   Link #1321
magnuskn
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Blaaargh. Canīt sleep yet, because this stupid argument is still going on in my head.

Okay, Iīll concede both points, but not on the merit of the counterarguments, but because (as I realized while thinking about it because I couldnīt sleep <grmbl> ) pretty obviously they were plot devices to move said plot forward, by handing the characters in question the idiot ball, so Iīm shuffling off the blame to the writers.

Ranka still is stupendously naive for the whole series, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Naive? Maybe, that's part of her character but aside from that point, I'm pretty sure Ranka was hoping that Alto would keep an open mind about things. Ranka was trying to reason with Alto explaining Ai-kun wasn't the one going around killing people. Nothing wrong with that really.
Stupendously naive. A look-alike of Ai-kuns race had just killed Altos best friend. Alto already had uttered his conviction that itīs either them or the Vajra to her in episode 17. A million of Ai-kuns comrades had just trashed Altos home. Killing thousands of innocents. Need I go on? Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
I recall Frontier containing alien life-forms such as Hydras and keeping them as pets and such (and they weren't very friendly looking.) Keeping a squirrel-like creature isn't a big deal really and besides, Ai-kun never showed any signs of malice towards Ranka (i.e. not until episode 23 I think but even then, he only captured her.)
As Nanase said in episode, itīs against the Ecosystem Bylaw. Hydras are Zentraedi pets, they generally are docile.

I said it above, itīs a classic example of the character getting handed an idiot ball, i.e. they need to do something tremendously stupid so that the plot can go on. Fault of the writers, so letīs move on.

Okay, I hope now I can go to sleep. ^^
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Old 2009-06-28, 18:32   Link #1322
Swampstorm
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A few quick points.

First, the "resolution" to the triangle is not exclusively a shipping concern.

Michael spends a good part of the series trying to get Alto to come to terms with his feelings for both girls. Furthermore, I think it's fairly safe to say that the take home message of episode twenty (that you need to express your feelings to the people whom you care about, before it's too late) was specifically aimed at Alto.

Without seeing Alto express what he really feels, it's unclear whether Michael's message had an impact on him or not. Even a polyamorous ending still requires Alto to actually come out and profess feelings to that effect. The ending isn't unresolved just because Alto doesn't make a choice regarding the triangle; it's unresolved because he doesn't even get to discuss his feelings with the girls.

It's not that Alto strikes me as particularily wishy-washy, either. It's more that the story dodges the issue by ending when it does.

***

Second, many of the complaints levelled against both Sheryl and Ranka have nothing to do with shipping in the first place, and the people who make them aren't necessarily fans of either girl (in fact, some don't like either girl - imagine that!)

Everyone responds to events in the story in a different context. As an example, a number of people took issue with Sheryl over the birthday present incident, thinking that it was intentional. While some of these people were Ranka fans who understandably ended up feeling that Ranka had been mistreated by Sheryl throughout episodes 8-11, there's a few Sheryl fans who interpreted things the same way by drawing on personal experiences.

Likewise, while some Sheryl fans understandably reacted negatively to Ranka's actions in episode twenty from the context of Sheryl's suffering over the previous episodes, there are a few Ranka fans who responded in similar fashion because her actions were at odds with their system of values regarding duty and responsibility.

On their own, none of these perspectives are problematic. But when people start to imply that these critiques are motivated by shipping (which, mind you, is often valid, but just as often isn't), things become unnecessarily bloody.

In short, the solution isn't to make a thoughtcrime out of venting out at the characters, but rather to take each post on an individual basis.

***

Aside:
If someone is willing to let other fans decide his/her favorite characters for him/her, he/she probably wasn't all that much of a fan of the characters to begin with.

Also, every fanbase has a history. Some arguments really have been done to death here, to the point that they've become memes. It can be difficult for someone freshly viewing these comments to understand why they get brushed-off (because they view it from a different context). This is a communication problem that I notice regularly, and it may be responsible for some of these misunderstandings.
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Old 2009-06-28, 18:44   Link #1323
magnuskn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
A few quick points.

First, the "resolution" to the triangle is not exclusively a shipping concern.

Michael spends a good part of the series trying to get Alto to come to terms with his feelings for both girls. Furthermore, I think it's fairly safe to say that the take home message of episode twenty (that you need to express your feelings to the people whom you care about, before it's too late) was specifically aimed at Alto.

Without seeing Alto express what he really feels, it's unclear whether Michael's message had an impact on him or not. Even a polyamorous ending still requires Alto to actually come out and profess feelings to that effect. The ending isn't unresolved just because Alto doesn't make a choice regarding the triangle; it's unresolved because he doesn't even get to discuss his feelings with the girls.

It's not that Alto strikes me as particularily wishy-washy, either. It's more that the story dodges the issue by ending when it does.
Obviously I could not yet sleep. ^^

I wanted to point out that this is why I love Swampys posts so much. He puts in words what I am thinking better than I myself can.

Good storytelling involves not putting out plot points which are later ignored. Ending the series before Alto gets to talk with the girls is exactly why I define the romance non-resolution as bad storytelling.

As for the rest, all excellent points.
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Old 2009-06-28, 19:19   Link #1324
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As far as Ranka being unfairly criticized for things the others get a pass on, I think people need to consider the consequences of the choices she makes. The rest of the kids may do stupid things, but they never impact anyone but themselves. Sheryl jumping off the roof in order to catch her panties might be "objectively" looked at as being just as dumb as keeping an innocuous-looking alien, but the point is that Sheryl going splat on the pavement is a personal risk, while Ranka is keeping something that could carry disease or be dangerous to the population at large.

Many of her worst decisions are like this, with further-reaching effects than her own discomfort or pain. I never disliked Ranka, but I also think that a lot of the criticism she gets isn't without merit, as it shows that she is a character with a severe lack of empathy for other people. As teenagers that age can be self-absorbed, I personally, don't think it's a deal breaker when it comes to liking her, but I can see why others would be put off by it. Especially when the other characters consistently put others before themselves in similar situations. (Sheryl, choosing to sing for the sake of Frontier even though it could mean her death. Alto, choosing the safety of the people in his home colony over "saving Ranka", if it comes down to that.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
Without seeing Alto express what he really feels, it's unclear whether Michael's message had an impact on him or not.
Pretty much this. Not only that, but Michael's interactions with Alto were really centered around "pick one". You would think that if the overall message was truly "you don't have to decide", then they wouldn't have bothered with Michael's role in the plot in the first place, since Alto was avoiding choosing between the two from day one.

Basically, the ending comes across as a cop out because so much of the story has focused around the idea of choosing one or the other. Choosing neither is a betrayal of the time spent on that aspect of the plot, because it means there was ultimately no point to the triangle in the first place.
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Old 2009-06-28, 19:38   Link #1325
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
As far as Ranka being unfairly criticized for things the others get a pass on, I think people need to consider the consequences of the choices she makes. The rest of the kids may do stupid things, but they never impact anyone but themselves.
My only real point there is that she takes the brunt of the blame when others were in exactly the same situation (Alto, Nanase... others?). They both knew about the existence of Ai-kun and chose to do nothing about it either. So saying that 'the rest of the kids may do stupid things, but they never impact anyone but themselves isn't exactly true.

I'm not saying it was the right decision, just that it's not one which Ranka alone is guilty of, yet her name is usually the only one mentioned, or this is pointed out as her failing alone, and other characters guilty of exactly the same thing don't receive equal criticism.

Anyway, it's clear that I'm not really going to make any sort of impact here, so I'm ready to put this debate to rest. My point wasn't to 'win over people to the Ranka side', I'm actually neutral in regards to the triangle. Sheryl is a good character. Ranka is a good character. Everyone is welcome to their favourites.
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Old 2009-06-28, 19:56   Link #1326
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@Snowblind

Well i have similar viewpoint like yours in regard to ai-kun...that's why I create my signature so I don't have to rewrite my viewpoint over and over again

and like how I just replied in a pm message, I hope Bobby will say the following line "Who says Alto can only get 1 girl, it's polygamy here", so Alto takes Ranka and Sheryl, Bobby takes Ozma and Cathy, Beresa(sp) takes ai-kun.. then everyone will live happily ever after, and peace will come to this forum once and for all
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I am a Ranka fan and I have significant experience in defending various "crimes" committed by Ranka, from her evil plan to terminate human races, to feeding inapporiate food to unknown lifeforms. If you think you find "new" charges aginst Ranka and you are interested, or you care to see how a particular Ranka fan would respond, please feel free to check my previous comment. There is a good chance that I have answered a similiar issue. And of course, my viewpoints do not necessarily represent other perspectivs from numerous Ranka fans in this planet
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Old 2009-06-28, 20:10   Link #1327
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^ - Hopefully peace will come to this forum, and the ghosts will find heaven or sink down to a rock and keep quiet.
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Old 2009-06-28, 21:15   Link #1328
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Well, the heat of the battle and all that. We had some mayor flaming going back-and-forth, after all, and by now the worst offenders have vanished back into their dark damp caves.

Iīll try to keep it down to reasonable criticism. Until the movie, then all bets are off.
funny you mention that, thing is they didn't just disappear they relocated. The last I saw of Wesley he was in NarutoFAN.com forums. He did well there for a while, because the people there truly hated Sheryl until the series ended, then many of them reviewed the series and became her fans, and then it was animesuki Macross thread all over again except they were more tolerant of him, if a little more effective at putting him in his place than here.

And Bleach OD was haunting some Bleach Forum and made a Ranka Fan club with got like 3 members. In this case his almost fanatic hatred of Sheryl may have scared people away from liking Ranka.

Which brings us to another fact, I've actually seen many a Macross viewers who though the don't post in Macross forums, and yet outright dislike Ranka, and not be fans of Sheryl. The same goes for a lot of people who watched and reviewed the series after it ended, or are just not apart of the Macross community. You want an example look no further than the least favorite character poll that was here a while back, most of the people who voted for Ranka don't even post in the Macoss section, in fact most of the people who actually post in the Macoss section voted for "he who must not be named" from That Series (I hate said series with a undying passion).

I think that one of reasons why Ranka lacks staying power is because she's just Moe, and while that does guarantee popularity it won't last. They need to have something else to grab and keep those fans, and that something cannot be more moe, it has to be something that sets them apart from the other moeblobs. Unfortunately for Ranka she lacks that, I mean even comparing her to CCS's Sakura or NANOHA's Nanoha and Fate. Sure Ranka is a sweet kid, but that's a given for a moe character, its one thing for a character to be moe inside of the show, and for everyone to want to protect her, but at the same time you've got to give them time to grow, you can't coddle them all the time. Which may be why people want her to actually face the consequences of her decisions so that they can actually sympathize with her, have a reason to cheer her on, and end up liking her.Which now that I think about it may have one of the very reason for the shift in episodes 18-24, they may have noticed Sheryl had something that Ranka lacked; Staying power, all Sheryl was the right push.

Also the reason why Lacus's move seems less, spontaneous and more thought than Ranka's position are that
1) Their circumstances were totally different: Lacus's father had been assassinated, and she was labeled as a wanted criminal by her homeland. Lacus had no where else to go she had to run away otherwise they would kill her. granted Ranka after running away from performing her duty as the songstress of hope for Frontier, and seeing her pet Vajra evolve into the very same type of creature that just killed her crush's best friend before her eyes, decided that she wanted to stop the war between Frontier and the Vajra.

2)The timing in which they decided to leave: While we don't know exactly how long Lacus had been branded a traitor she didn't leave PLANT until she also until she could stole the Eternal, PLANT's most advanced battle ship, and assembled a crew of veterans to help man it. And then made her ex-fiance (one of PLANT's most powerful soldiers) second-guess his position as an soldier for PLANT. Lacus obviously waited. Ranka decided she wanted to left in a few hours, after she announced she wanted to leave.

3)What they left with: Lacus left with PLANT's most powerful ship, full of veterans that were loyal to her, and her cause. While Ranka left with Brera, his VF-27 and Ai-kun

4) Who they got to help them along the way: Lacus met up with Archangel (and its experienced crew along with Dearka and Mu La Flaga (which held two gundams) and Kira(the ultimate coordinator) who had Freedom(one of the two the most powerful mobile suit), Athrun (the most powerful PLANT soldier) who had Justice(the other most powerful mobile suit), along with the entire ORB Fleet with with Kusanagi and their soldiers. The reason why the ORB fleet wasn't shown off was simple no named characters were on those ships. Ranka didn't meet anyone to help her along the way.

5) Hostility of the enemy: If my memory serves me well, PLANT was actually reluctant to attack them, and some of the soldiers even defected to Lacus's side. They really only had a problem with the Earth Alliance. The Vajra have a hive mind, all they they need to do is to see Ranka as a threat and they won't hesitate to kill her, or whatever have you. Which they did.

6) Did they need to be saved from a outside force: Lacus once she got going didn't need to be saved, in fact she was calling the shots. Ranka was used as a pawn by Grace, and the Galaxy.

So yeah two situations shouldn't really be compared as it just makes Ranka look stupid.
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Old 2009-06-28, 21:30   Link #1329
Yot-chan
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
funny you mention that, thing is they didn't just disappear they relocated. The last I saw of Wesley he was in NarutoFAN.com forums. He did well there for a while, because the people there truly hated Sheryl until the series ended, then many of them reviewed the series and became her fans, and then it was animesuki Macross thread all over again except they were more tolerant of him, if a little more effective at putting him in his place than here.

And Bleach OD was haunting some Bleach Forum and made a Ranka Fan club with got like 3 members. In this case his almost fanatic hatred of Sheryl may have scared people away from liking Ranka.

Which brings us to another fact, I've actually seen many a Macross viewers who though the don't post in Macross forums, and yet outright dislike Ranka, and not be fans of Sheryl. The same goes for a lot of people who watched and reviewed the series after it ended, or are just not apart of the Macross community. You want an example look no further than the least favorite character poll that was here a while back, most of the people who voted for Ranka don't even post in the Macoss section, in fact most of the people who actually post in the Macoss section voted for "he who must not be named" from That Series (I hate said series with a undying passion).
Same thing happened with a few Ranka Haters on MacrossWorld. There were two of them in particular who were quite obnoxious and insulting. When the series ended, one of them (who had been prone to telling people they were on drugs or crazy or flat-out stupid if they didn't think Ranka sucked), got offended when someone said "Unsuccessful Sheryl-shipper is unsuccessful." Pretty mild compared to his own language, but he apparently couldn't take it, said "If I said what I really thought right now, I'd get banned," left MacrossWorld, and hasn't visited since. The other one came back and said proclaimed, apropos nothing, that he had never watched Frontier, because it made no sense. When we told him he should, he said that he HAD watched it, but had striven to forget everything it about except Sheryl. He, too, vanished after that.

My point? There are idiots on all sides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
I think that one of reasons why Ranka lacks staying power is because she's just Moe, and while that does guarantee popularity it won't last. They need to have something else to grab and keep those fans, and that something cannot be more moe, it has to be something that sets them apart from the other moeblobs. Unfortunately for Ranka she lacks that, I mean even comparing her to CCS's Sakura or NANOHA's Nanoha and Fate. Sure Ranka is a sweet kid, but that's a given for a moe character, its one thing for a character to be moe inside of the show, and for everyone to want to protect her, but at the same time you've got to give them time to grow, you can't coddle them all the time. Which may be why people want her to actually face the consequences of her decisions so that they can actually sympathize with her, have a reason to cheer her on, and end up liking her.Which now that I think about it may have one of the very reason for the shift in episodes 18-24, they may have noticed Sheryl had something that Ranka lacked; Staying power, all Sheryl was the right push.
Ooh, "lacks staying power." That's a good one. Shouldn't you wait a couple more years before declaring something like that?
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Old 2009-06-28, 22:28   Link #1330
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My point? There are idiots on all sides.
Exactly my point, the stupidity isn't limited to just Sheryl fans. There is unfortunately plenty of stupid to go around ( I used to be a narutofan, I would know). Though in my experience the best way to deal with them is to just ignore them in other words Don't feed the Troll.
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Ooh, "lacks staying power." That's a good one. Shouldn't you wait a couple more years before declaring something like that?
Well it's barely been a year since Frontier has ended and yet Ranka has fallen so low in the favorite character polls, so that's something that should be considered.

Thing is I really want to cheer for Ranka, I really want to see her grow up as a character, and be more than just another moe character, though right its kinda hard. So a lot of what I say is my wishful thinking for her, because we all know she's got the potential.
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Old 2009-06-28, 22:50   Link #1331
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Exactly my point, the stupidity isn't limited to just Sheryl fans. There is unfortunately plenty of stupid to go around ( I used to be a narutofan, I would know). Though in my experience the best way to deal with them is to just ignore them in other words Don't feed the Troll.
As I said before, anyone who hates Sheryl MUST BE a troll. There's no other rationale I can think for disliking her.

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Well it's barely been a year since Frontier has ended and yet Ranka has fallen so low in the favorite character polls, so that's something that should be considered.
Hmmm. Yeah, I never put a whole lot of stock in the polls, so I haven't been checking them out. Is ranka even still on this list? If so, how many votes did she get? How many votes did Sheryl get?
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Old 2009-06-28, 22:58   Link #1332
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As I said before, anyone who hates Sheryl MUST BE a troll. There's no other rationale I can think for disliking her.
That's actually the same rationale I use for Ranka, ironically. Though to extend it further it is stupid to hate a character just because you feel that they somehow get in the way of their OTP, and not because of their personality, behavior, or actions, through the course of the story.
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Old 2009-06-28, 23:10   Link #1333
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Ooops, for (many) seconds I thought this was the Favorite character Thread
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Old 2009-06-28, 23:23   Link #1334
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Ooops, for (many) seconds I thought this was the Favorite character Thread
And I thought it was the LEAST Favorite Character Thread...

So, who's seen Eva 2.0 yet? Frontier's trailer is supposed to be attached to that, I think.
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Old 2009-06-28, 23:46   Link #1335
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And I thought it was the LEAST Favorite Character Thread...

So, who's seen Eva 2.0 yet? Frontier's trailer is supposed to be attached to that, I think.
Well I haven't seen it yet however, I have seen a new promotional material for Macross Frontier Movie
Spoiler for For Size:
courtesy of forgottendiary, and kresphy from whatboutmystar livejournal community

Last edited by wisteria233; 2009-06-30 at 06:49.
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Old 2009-06-29, 00:03   Link #1336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Well I haven't seen it yet however, I have seen a new promotional material for Macross Frontier Movie
Spoiler for For Size:
courtesy of forgottendiary from whatboutmystar livejournal community
Please credit kresphy, thanks!

I am sooo loving that poster <3
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Old 2009-06-29, 03:20   Link #1337
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Yes, it looks like the same land we see when Saito is landing on ep 25.

And cosnidering that he seems to be alone with Sheryl we may get even more implications of AltoxSheryl end, but since there is another movie things can change pretty fast.
Ah so the planet in episode 25 they settle on is called Saito... anyway it certainly looks like that. Now to go back to episode 24 remember how Alto and Sheryl were going to settle things after the conclusion of the battle... looks like this could possibly be that scene?

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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Basically, the ending comes across as a cop out because so much of the story has focused around the idea of choosing one or the other. Choosing neither is a betrayal of the time spent on that aspect of the plot, because it means there was ultimately no point to the triangle in the first place.
That's my main beef with people going that they don't mind having no conclusion for the love triangle. To devote so much time on the triangle to the detriment of important things like story, development of side characters and antagonists, action scenes etc. So many areas Frontier fell short in to focus on it's money maker so to say in the triangle. And than it does nothing with it. When we see the typical harem end people generally don't mind because in those shows like Tenchi and Seikirei etc the romance is the icing, not the cake. For Frontier romance was it's big thing and to drop the ball in the end while ignoring everything else that makes a quality anime good was complete failure.

Last edited by Westlo; 2009-06-29 at 03:33.
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Old 2009-06-29, 03:35   Link #1338
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
As I said before, anyone who hates Sheryl MUST BE a troll. There's no other rationale I can think for disliking her.


Hmmm. Yeah, I never put a whole lot of stock in the polls, so I haven't been checking them out. Is ranka even still on this list? If so, how many votes did she get? How many votes did Sheryl get?
Letīs see. This is a listing of the rankings posted in the favourite character thread, so it is just as complete as people bothered to post.

Newtype:
December: Sheryl: #2 - Ranka: not listed
January: Sheryl: #5 - Ranka: not listed
March: Sheryl: #1 - Ranka: #3
April: Sheryl: #5 - Ranka: #10
May: Sheryl: #4 - Ranka: not listed
June: Sheryl: #6 - Ranka: not listed
July: Sheryl: #6 - Ranka: not listed

Kinda speaks for itself, although Iīd really like to know to what the popularity surge in March and April was due.

As for the other magazines, you have to ask Tak and Westlo, who are the people whoīd know more about this than me.
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Old 2009-06-29, 08:07   Link #1339
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Fresh INFO from a Japanese fan (yes, he used machine translation but I totally adore him!):

I have seen EVANGERION:02 today.
There was trailer of MacrossF before screening this volume.
BANDAI is a sponsor of EVANGERION and MACROSS.
BGM of the trailer were "Pink Monsoon" and "Sagittarius☆9:00PM Don't be late".
Pink Monsoon is a new one, and Sheryl's debut album title tune.
For me, the works of KAN-NO Yoko are the enjoyment.



from here
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Old 2009-06-29, 08:15   Link #1340
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BGM of the trailer were "Pink Monsoon" and "Sagittarius☆9:00PM Don't be late".
Good to know...

Thanks for the info!
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