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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 789 63.68%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 163 13.16%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 95 7.67%
7 out of 10 : Good 67 5.41%
6 out of 10 : Average 17 1.37%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 18 1.45%
4 out of 10 : Poor 7 0.56%
3 out of 10 : Bad 7 0.56%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 4 0.32%
1 out of 10 : Painful 72 5.81%
Voters: 1239. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-09-29, 15:25   Link #2801
hero147
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Originally Posted by bran View Post
suzaku really has it worse....i mean looking at how everyone moved with their life
and kallen's pictures he's nowhere to be seen
he's officialy dead
who knows zero's suzaku?
kallen maybe? nunally?
suzaku is going to live a long lonely life
even Arthur isn't with him anymore
I think Nunnally knows as well as a large portion of people who knew Lelouch was zero.
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Old 2008-09-29, 15:27   Link #2802
Orga777
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Originally Posted by hero147 View Post
What else could've been done? Suzaku was the only person in the anime who could dodge bullets and be able to get even that close to Lelouch to kill him....Lelouch pretty much lost all his friends excluding CC. It was something that needed to be done. Lelouch not dying doesn't make him any less of a hero than he already is, it just makes him a martyr. A hero is defined by what he accomplishes, not what he gives up. However, in turn, it's usually that the more you give up in life, the more you achieve.
That doesn't change the fact Suzaku got the short end of the stick (covered in dog crap) if Lelouch is alive. Not to mention Nunnally who he emotionally destroyed. Where is their consolation in all this? Peaceful world is all well and good, but Lelouch needs to be punished still for all that he has done. And I don't consider living in peace with C.C. till Doomsday that noble or filled with justice. Lelouch himself was ready to die. He even said so (as it was part of Zero Requiem and all that.) the world no longer needed him. "Zero" returned to guide the people. Him being alive serves NO purpose IMO (and has very little backing of support anyway.)

So unless there is an OVA, or a third season that proves me wrong, I will list him as a casualty in this series and a noble figure that sacrificed his name and life for everyone.
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Old 2008-09-29, 15:28   Link #2803
Charred Knight
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Originally Posted by Hiku View Post
Well assuming he would have survived, he would have sacrificed everything that was his life, including Nunnally whom he loved so much.

And Lelouch wouldn't have had to sacrifice himself if it wasn't for the Black Knights betraying him. He wouldn't have become emperor, and could have stayed as Zero until the end. So saying that he wouldn't be a hero if he didn't kill himself in the end isn't true. He would have been a hero to everyone just by beating Britannia and releasing all the numbers.
Britannia was never the problem, it was Charles, who was always the problem

Charles never started trying to take over the world, Japan, and the rest of the world is at peace.

Since Charles started the war, Lelouch rose up to stop him, because Lelouch rose up to stop him, Euphemia was geassed, because Euphemia was geassed and died, Schneizel lost all hope in humanity, because Schneizel lost all hope in humanity, he opposed Lelouch, Schneizel took the black knights away from Lelouch, causing Lelouch to oppose Charles plan and stop him.

After that Lelouch, and Schneizel could have worked to restore peace, but instead Schneizel builds a doom fortress, Lelouch starts brainwashing people, including his Upper Class Twit family, and the world is at war.

Due to that Schneizel is geassed into being Suzaku slave, and Lelouch dies for the sins of Charles, Schneizel, and Nunnaly, and makes Euphemia look good in comparison. How he did that was never revealed.

Britannia was never the problem which is why its still around in the end, with Nunnaly, and the Royal Family still around.
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Old 2008-09-29, 15:30   Link #2804
Hiku
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
That doesn't change the fact Suzaku got the short end of the stick (covered in dog crap) if Lelouch is alive.
Like I said, Lelouch was ready to stay the course as Zero until the Black Knights betrayed him and made it impossible. So this wasn't about bailing out, but about what the two of them could accomplish together. If Lelouch could be Zero, then so could Suzaku. They had to make it look like Lelouch was killed by Zero, so the simplest solution would be for Suzaku to be Zero. Like Lelouch said, it was also a punishment for Suzaku. Lelouch punishment could have been his death, or the curse of eternal life. And obviously if Suzaku is found out as being Zero, it would not be as bad as if Lelouch was discovered.
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Old 2008-09-29, 15:30   Link #2805
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
That doesn't change the fact Suzaku got the short end of the stick (covered in dog crap) if Lelouch is alive. Not to mention Nunnally who he emotionally destroyed. Where is their consolation in all this? Peaceful world is all well and good, but Lelouch needs to be punished still for all that he has done. And I don't consider living in peace with C.C. till Doomsday that noble or filled with justice. Lelouch himself was ready to die. He even said so (as it was part of Zero Requiem and all that.) the world no longer needed him. "Zero" returned to guide the people. Him being alive serves NO purpose IMO (and has very little backing of support anyway.)

So unless there is an OVA, or a third season that proves me wrong, I will list him as a casualty in this series and a noble figure that sacrificed his name and life for everyone.
Totally up to you Orga, I on the other hand think differently given the portrayal of immortality in this series I expect Lelouch would have accepted many new and heavy burdens should this have been the actual scenario. Suzaku may have to work as Zero for life, but Lelouch will have to watch the world for eternity in this respect, and if that is the case then I feel this presents a valid solution to many who have criticized the new world order Lelouch has brought forth crumbling sometime in the future after two or three generations, but once again if he is still alive then this case becomes something that can be countered after all

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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
Britannia was never the problem, it was Charles, who was always the problem

Charles never started trying to take over the world, Japan, and the rest of the world is at peace.

Since Charles started the war, Lelouch rose up to stop him, because Lelouch rose up to stop him, Euphemia was geassed, because Euphemia was geassed and died, Schneizel lost all hope in humanity, because Schneizel lost all hope in humanity, he opposed Lelouch, Schneizel took the black knights away from Lelouch, causing Lelouch to oppose Charles plan and stop him.

After that Lelouch, and Schneizel could have worked to restore peace, but instead Schneizel builds a doom fortress, Lelouch starts brainwashing people, including his Upper Class Twit family, and the world is at war.

Due to that Schneizel is geassed into being Suzaku slave, and Lelouch dies for the sins of Charles, Schneizel, and Nunnaly, and makes Euphemia look good in comparison. How he did that was never revealed.

Britannia was never the problem which is why its still around in the end, with Nunnaly, and the Royal Family still around.
Didn't Charles undergo a bloodbath era of his own before he ascended to the throne, if I recall? So Britannia/society wasn't the problem if we're playing the chain game? <_<

Okay, far as I could tell Schneizel did not change because of Euphie, we don't know what caused Schneizel to be how he was, though Lelouch speculated his holding of his position as an Imperial Prince was part of the answer. And know, Schneizel makes mention of having planned for Damocoles long before Euphie's death, as indicated in a conversation between him and Darlton about contacting the Tormino Insitute in Cambodia, where Schneizel had a 'contact that would smooth things over' while Darlton was concerned about the prospect on calling upon them to engage the Chinese Intervention force way back in Season 1 Stage 20.

I think the overall problem and message of the series was one concerning the world, and the system myself, hence rebellion and determination to tear is all down as Lelouch did. >_>
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"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
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Old 2008-09-29, 15:31   Link #2806
Carlos45
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Originally Posted by Hiku View Post
Well assuming he would have survived, he would have sacrificed everything that was his life, including Nunnally whom he loved so much.

And Lelouch wouldn't have had to sacrifice himself if it wasn't for the Black Knights betraying him. He wouldn't have become emperor, and could have stayed as Zero until the end. So saying that he wouldn't be a hero if he didn't kill himself in the end isn't true. He would have been a hero to everyone just by beating Britannia and releasing all the numbers.
Agreed, and i like to add a point in here, it's quite hard not being able to see your loved ones, or the people that you care about. Now he's going to be hiding hes idenity, and having a fake name/background etc, isn't somthing easy to do, really.
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Old 2008-09-29, 15:31   Link #2807
Charred Knight
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Meh, no worse then any other person I feel, he tread the path on a fine line but I always had faith he would pull through in the end. As for the peace through negotiation... just doesn't strike home for me, pieces of paper I feel cannot be compared to will of the people and inspiring them to work towards peace instead of just doing it for them as you would suggest, I feel will support and strengthen this new era far more then if he had not chosen this path.

Hey, they're leading happy lives in the end, as we can see without him, as is the rest of the world so it works out in my perspective
A peace of paper can inspire people

Just look at the declaration of independence. By creating an atmosphere of peace, you encourage it, by encouraging it you are taught it.
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Old 2008-09-29, 15:32   Link #2808
Hiku
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
Britannia was never the problem, it was Charles, who was always the problem

Charles never started trying to take over the world, Japan, and the rest of the world is at peace.

Since Charles started the war, Lelouch rose up to stop him, because Lelouch rose up to stop him, Euphemia was geassed, because Euphemia was geassed and died, Schneizel lost all hope in humanity, because Schneizel lost all hope in humanity, he opposed Lelouch, Schneizel took the black knights away from Lelouch, causing Lelouch to oppose Charles plan and stop him.

After that Lelouch, and Schneizel could have worked to restore peace, but instead Schneizel builds a doom fortress, Lelouch starts brainwashing people, including his Upper Class Twit family, and the world is at war.

Due to that Schneizel is geassed into being Suzaku slave, and Lelouch dies for the sins of Charles, Schneizel, and Nunnaly, and makes Euphemia look good in comparison. How he did that was never revealed.

Britannia was never the problem which is why its still around in the end, with Nunnaly, and the Royal Family still around.
Britannia is however it is ruled. So when I say Britannia, I mean Charles' Britannia. (Which Schneizel was a part of as well, conquering most parts of Europe.)
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Old 2008-09-29, 15:32   Link #2809
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I think you guys are forgetting that regardless of if Lelouch dies or not, he still made a sacrifice. If he's alive, he still has had to give up all of his friendships and ambitions and everything he has come to know and love by going into a reclusive exile with CC. When the show started, his goal was to create a better world for Nunnaly and himself to live in - while he succeeds in creating such a world, his ultimate sacrifice is that he never gets to see Nunnaly again...him never getting to see through to the end with his sister the reason he started fighting in the first place, alive or dead, is his sacrifice.
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Old 2008-09-29, 15:34   Link #2810
Orga777
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Originally Posted by Hiku View Post
Britannia is however it is ruled. So when I say Britannia, I mean Charles' Britannia. (Which Schneizel was a part of as well, conquering most parts of Europe.)
No, no. Schneizel conquered SOME of Europe and made peace with some of Europe. And Schneizel despised how his father did things. That is very much fact.

So yeah, Charred is on point. This is all Charles fault. XD
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Old 2008-09-29, 15:35   Link #2811
Tael
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There is an inconsistency in the theory of 'must die to activate code' idea. That being Charles and the events in Episode 15... and V.V.'s entire existence.
  • Lelouch Geasses Charles, but we see no animation beyond it reaching his eyes and we see no red iris.
  • Charles shoots himself, but this apperantely never happened because Lelouch never left him mech.
  • After waking up Charles reveals his code and says that the Geass have no affect on him.
The problem arises in the absence of the rewiring scene, and the absence of the red circles on the eyes. Either he was not Geassed because he had already acquired the code from V.V., or there is a massive inconsistency and the animators fucked up. But then we know that Lelouch never actually left the Shinkurou, in that he never faced his father, and he never had him shoot himself. In which situation, Charles never died but his code was fully active. In either situation, the the idea that the code activates upon death, seems to fall through the floor.

The next problem arises in the code transfer, V.V. at the very least became disoriented after losing his code, but more likely than not (compounded by C.Chi) he lost his memories and reverted to a child. When Charles, died and 'supposedly' lost his Code, he was himself through till the moment he disappeared. Inconsistency is plausible here.

V.V.'s immortality does not seem to have had death attached to it either. There is a major lapse in judgment if he acquired the power but the only way to test it was to kill himself. Charles would not have let him do such a thing, as it is borderline idiotic. "Oh don't worry, I'll be fine." The last words of many a man. Further if he was actively acquiring the power, as his words would imply, he'd be aware of its existence within him. He could, very well, grow up with Charles since the code wouldn't activate until the time of dire need, eg his death.

Finally, the idea put forth by V.V., of actively accepting the burden of immortality (we hear it when he murmurs after losing his code) would imply that he would know full well when he acquired said burden. Further this, that if the code does not activate until a person's death, then there are other loop holes. For one, a person could unwittingly live out their lives without dying but carrying the code, and when they revive they revive as a desecrated corpse for all of eternity. What is that supposed to do?
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Old 2008-09-29, 15:35   Link #2812
Charred Knight
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Totally up to you Orga, I on the other hand think differently given the portrayal of immortality in this series I expect Lelouch would have accepted many new and heavy burdens should this have been the actual scenario. Suzaku may have to work as Zero for life, but Lelouch will have to watch the world for eternity in this respect, and if that is the case then I feel this presents a valid solution to many who have criticized the new world order Lelouch has brought forth crumbling sometime in the future after two or three generations, but once again if he is still alive then this case becomes something that can be countered after all

If you take the conversation as you have, then you get no sense of burdern from C.C or Lelouch.

Except for like one scene (Kallen) the whole thing is a corny, happy ending. Like I have stated several times, its basically the ending to a children's television show.
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Old 2008-09-29, 15:37   Link #2813
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Wait....By your logic, isn't Lelouch an ass either way? You mentioned that if Lelouch went with CC to an orange farm and lived in like "paradise" He's an ass for leaving Nunnally emotionally damaged and Kallen also with emotional wounds. But wouldn't Lelouch also be an ass for leaving CC and not completing his side of the deal that he made in episode 25 of S1?
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Old 2008-09-29, 15:37   Link #2814
Hiku
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
No, no. Schneizel conquered SOME of Europe and made peace with some of Europe. And Schneizel despised how his father did things. That is very much fact.

So yeah, Charred is on point. This is all Charles fault. XD
Charles was most likely the biggest problem. Though Schneizel's methods were different, his actions still led to countries being reformed into Numbers. Which in itself caused a lot of problems as we witnessed throughout the series.
Then you can question how much of the conquering was doe by Charles, and how much was done by Schneizel, Odysseus and Cornelia. There is a scene where Charles speaks to Bismark about how "only fools wage war".
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Old 2008-09-29, 15:39   Link #2815
Orga777
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Charles was probably the problem. Though Schneizel's methods were different, his actions still led to countries being reformed into Numbers. Which in itself caused a lot of problems as we witnessed throughout the series.
Schneizel was still in that system. It doesn't mean he LIKED it, but he had to do what he had to do... and find ways to under mind his fathers views without putting himself in danger. XD
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Old 2008-09-29, 15:39   Link #2816
Charred Knight
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Originally Posted by FreezeGeass View Post
I think you guys are forgetting that regardless of if Lelouch dies or not, he still made a sacrifice. If he's alive, he still has had to give up all of his friendships and ambitions and everything he has come to know and love by going into a reclusive exile with CC. When the show started, his goal was to create a better world for Nunnaly and himself to live in - while he succeeds in creating such a world, his ultimate sacrifice is that he never gets to see Nunnaly again...him never getting to see through to the end with his sister the reason he started fighting in the first place, alive or dead, is his sacrifice.
That's kind of a shitty sacrifice, considering all that he did.

Lelouch getting right back up and getting some exile isn't dying for the sins of himself and his family, its getting stabbed for his sins and the sins of his family.

Not that epic.
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Old 2008-09-29, 15:41   Link #2817
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One can neither say with absolute certainty Lelouch is dead or alive. The directors specifically showed two scenes of the cart driver at the end. The purpose was to draw doubt, provoke conjecture, and ultimately create a sense that the story is still continuing. It's a literary device that makes the story seem larger. There is motivation for Lelouch to hide himself should he be alive, and there is the obvious acceptance that he is dead exactly as shown. However, with the motif of people "not really being dead" throughout the entire series it's obvious that the designers are trying to leave it open ended. Mystery is the one prevailing element that kept us interested in the story, and they have chosen to leave us with a little bit.
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Old 2008-09-29, 15:41   Link #2818
Orga777
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Originally Posted by hero147 View Post
Wait....By your logic, isn't Lelouch an ass either way? You mentioned that if Lelouch went with CC to an orange farm and lived in like "paradise" He's an ass for leaving Nunnally emotionally damaged and Kallen also with emotional wounds. But wouldn't Lelouch also be an ass for leaving CC and not completing his side of the deal that he made in episode 25 of S1?
Except Lelouch did complete his side of the deal. He changed C.C. and gave her a reason to live on. A bright future even for her. Remember, she was a very selfish character all through the series, but Lelouch changed her to look beyond so she can move on. I think I said that earlier too...
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Old 2008-09-29, 15:41   Link #2819
Charred Knight
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Wait....By your logic, isn't Lelouch an ass either way? You mentioned that if Lelouch went with CC to an orange farm and lived in like "paradise" He's an ass for leaving Nunnally emotionally damaged and Kallen also with emotional wounds. But wouldn't Lelouch also be an ass for leaving CC and not completing his side of the deal that he made in episode 25 of S1?
No, if you gave me 5 bucks, and I promised to pay you back tomorrow, but before I could I was ran over by a car and died, how am I an ass for not following through?
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Old 2008-09-29, 15:42   Link #2820
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I dunno... I'm under the impression based on CC before Lelouch seemed to give her a reason to live for something? that immortality and exile is worst off than getting to die and going to the World of C...
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