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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 789 63.68%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 163 13.16%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 95 7.67%
7 out of 10 : Good 67 5.41%
6 out of 10 : Average 17 1.37%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 18 1.45%
4 out of 10 : Poor 7 0.56%
3 out of 10 : Bad 7 0.56%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 4 0.32%
1 out of 10 : Painful 72 5.81%
Voters: 1239. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-09-30, 05:12   Link #3221
Zero_Gravity
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They like to screw with our heads
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Old 2008-09-30, 05:13   Link #3222
tzia_n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You see his mech! You don't see Tian Zi in mourning garb! So he's got to be alive.

^ because I was tired of arguing about Lelouch's status.
lol well moving on is still moving on so can we actually move on from the lelouch death debate and on to xing ke?
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Old 2008-09-30, 05:16   Link #3223
yezhanquan
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Lelouch, the martyr. Has a ring to it. Everyone, say it with me:

"ALL HAIL LELOUCH!"
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Old 2008-09-30, 05:17   Link #3224
Spring_sakura111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You see his mech! You don't see Tian Zi in mourning garb! So he's got to be alive.

^ because I was tired of arguing about Lelouch's status.
He's dead. It makes sense. If Xing Ke is alive, he'll be shown with Tian Zi. Right? Even the Chinese woman and the Chinese fat guy is there. Why not Xing ke? It implies that he died. lol. Some people didn't notice since they were concentrating too much on if Lelouch death/ressurection. xD
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Old 2008-09-30, 05:19   Link #3225
Anh_Minh
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He's just camera shy!
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Old 2008-09-30, 05:29   Link #3226
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to chime in on the lulu being dead or not argument... well there is no evidence either way really. No seeing the body buried, to proof that he is the driver or otherwise back... just hints.


What I think DOES matter is his promise to C.C. There is no way he would not plan that one in or fuck it up.

He is going to keep it and for that reason I'm leaning towards Lulu being alive with only possibly Jeremia knowing the truth.

The contract and later the promise to make her smile are of huge importance since the very first episode of season 1.


Just some food for thought =)
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Old 2008-09-30, 05:29   Link #3227
leechbox
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This was a epic anime, this broke my heart into many peices. But it shows hints that lelouch died but still lived in many peoples hearts. He also (i think) is still alive with c.c. because c.c would die too. Also he gave his immortality to nunnaly if you noticed. But he died (in a fake or real way) for the world. But i was expecting him to change the world, but he made a promise to suzaku. Well that kind of sucks doesnt it? But i still think hes alive with c.c. *crys and walks away*
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Old 2008-09-30, 05:34   Link #3228
Kyo69
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I'm glad Lulu got to prove that he is not like Light form Death Note.
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Old 2008-09-30, 05:37   Link #3229
yezhanquan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyo69 View Post
I'm glad Lulu got to prove that he is not like Light form Death Note.
To tell the truth, Lelouch was nearly corrupted by the absolute power which he wielded. Well, turns out that he passed the test.
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Old 2008-09-30, 05:53   Link #3230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Originally Posted by Kyo69
I'm glad Lulu got to prove that he is not like Light form Death Note.

To tell the truth, Lelouch was nearly corrupted by the absolute power which he wielded. Well, turns out that he passed the test.
hehe, if lulu would be dead like Light's way........I think Sunrise has to move the office to 'timbuktu' -.-"
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Old 2008-09-30, 06:04   Link #3231
Kaze
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10 secs theory to think about it:


I doubt Jeremiah would be happy to let Lelouch die like that, even if lelouch asked him to, he would be seen as the guy who did it again, first with Marianne, now with Lelouch.

He was smiling when Suzaku ran past him, he took his death way to happy, not even a tear.
He was watching and smiling, which makes me believe he knows something others don't.


I do think lelouch is alive, simply because there are too many possibilities.
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Old 2008-09-30, 06:09   Link #3232
killbethy
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I think the point of the ambiguous ending was to not alienate fans that were rooting for a certain outcome. If you want to believe Lelouch is dead, there is plenty of evidence to back it up. If you want to believe Lelouch is alive, again, there is plenty of evidence to back it up. Tanaguchi is letting the fans decide for themselves what happened to Lelouch rather than forcing his ending on them.



But I still can't believe they didn't mention C.C.'s real name.
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Old 2008-09-30, 06:20   Link #3233
don1235
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NOt REally

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Giving in to the UFN would have sowed the seeds of resentment between Britania (who become, in effect, 1/5 citizens) and the rest of the world composed of full citizens. And let's not even get into what kind of resolutions they could pass to make Britania pay.




To Schneizel, Lelouch's death was a beginning, and Fleija his endgame. To Lelouch, getting control of Damocles was a beginning, and his death the endgame. So, no, they're not the same. Besides, casting Schneizel as the bad guy could have proved difficult.


The point wasn't everlasting peace. The point was to give people a new start, out of the world destroying spiral they were in. He left in charge people who had in common that they publicly were his "victims" and privately understood that he gave his life so they'd get a chance at peace. No, it won't last forever. But it'll be good while it does, and if they can achieve one year of peace, maybe they can try again and achieve two, and so on.



As for the blame, they apparently successfully pushed everything onto Lulu. Just as planned.

Not really, He can breakup Britainia or accept the slight loss of power. Afterall rebellion in Britainia can be putted down by force like he did to the nobles. Further even without joining the UFN, he can make peace and promote understanding with individual nations through Cultural exchange programs, trade agreements, peace treaties and financial assistance can be used as tools. Even if they donít trust you, try again and again for, say 30 years (BUT THIS IS CODE GEASS SO THERE MUST BE WAR NOT SILLY Negotiations).

From what I know many individual nations have a good impression on him. China and Japan isn't the whole of UFN. By engaging in war he caused the death of many people, which is ridiculous.

The point wasn't everlasting peace - to give people a fresh start. Well, I think that
with his father Charles' death, he already have the fresh start. Afterall Charles has been the one to cause so much suffering. So his actions were redundant.

In the end, Lelouch died to make the anime tragic and add more drama. It is too boring to end at Episode 22 with Lelouch reforming Britiannia and creating an everlasting peace.
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Old 2008-09-30, 06:23   Link #3234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Giving in to the UFN would have sowed the seeds of resentment between Britania (who become, in effect, 1/5 citizens) and the rest of the world composed of full citizens. And let's not even get into what kind of resolutions they could pass to make Britania pay.
Britannian citizens wouldn't become "1/5 citizens." The UFN's suggestion that Lelouch relinquish part of his vote was completely reasonable so he wouldn't hold the majority vote. Even limited down to 20%, that is still very substantial. Not to mention, if he had continued by completely freeing the Areas and giving them their own independence (which he just gave them back their names, not quite freeing them), the vote would have been decreased naturally. Also, the majority of the UFN delegates were confused by Lelouch being trapped in the Geass-preventative box (not knowing his ability), stating that he wasn't the bad emperor and had been good to them (destroying the nobility system within Britannia and giving the Areas back their identities). The only members of the UFN that would have wanted to make Lelouch pay would have been Tianzi and Kaguya.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
To Schneizel, Lelouch's death was a beginning, and Fleija his endgame. To Lelouch, getting control of Damocles was a beginning, and his death the endgame. So, no, they're not the same. Besides, casting Schneizel as the bad guy could have proved difficult.
Casting Schneizel as the bag guy would not have been difficult after he launched FLEIAs all around the world. That's far worse than anything Lelouch did. And again, given the intelligence Lelouch was portrayed having throughout the series combined with the scientific backing of Lloyd, Cecile, and Nina... and the ENTIRE UFN, they could have surely found a way to defeat him. Heck, in one year scientific progressed so far in the Code Geass Universe from seeing the first Float System on a ship (Avalon, Stage 18) to having an entire floating fortress (Damocles).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
The point wasn't everlasting peace. The point was to give people a new start, out of the world destroying spiral they were in. He left in charge people who had in common that they publicly were his "victims" and privately understood that he gave his life so they'd get a chance at peace. No, it won't last forever. But it'll be good while it does, and if they can achieve one year of peace, maybe they can try again and achieve two, and so on.
As much as a new start and peace sounds nice... I also find a loophole in that Lelouch forced his peace of "tomorrow" (although very covertly through the Zero Requiem) just like Charles tried to force his peace of the "past" and Schneizel of the "present." In the end, the uniting of the world by Lelouch was by forcible action and scheming... just like Charles and Schneizel. And as sad is it may seem, not everyone in the world wishes for peace. Economies always boom the most during war time. :-/


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
The ones who knew about geass knew he was Lelouch. And understood, in the end, what he tried to do. The rest were kept completely in the dark. To them, Zero is a hero who keeps resurrecting when he's most needed.
I can name one loose end right now: Kanon. Whether he lived or died was never fully shown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
As for the blame, they apparently successfully pushed everything onto Lulu. Just as planned.
That's just simple plot rushing that lacks logic. It was necessary to end Lelouch's storyline, but logical? No.
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Old 2008-09-30, 06:27   Link #3235
El_Negro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killbethy View Post
I think the point of the ambiguous ending was to not alienate fans that were rooting for a certain outcome. If you want to believe Lelouch is dead, there is plenty of evidence to back it up. If you want to believe Lelouch is alive, again, there is plenty of evidence to back it up. Tanaguchi is letting the fans decide for themselves what happened to Lelouch rather than forcing his ending on them.



But I still can't believe they didn't mention C.C.'s real name.
Nah Lelouch is alive and I think he's either sent to another realm where there's our real world just like how Ed from Full Metal Alchemist ended up on our real world, so he's there along with C.C. and in our world no such thing as geass exist

Or he went to konoha to lend Tsunade strategic strength in dealing with Akatsuki

Just joking, I'm kinda glad the director left the decision up to us the viewers and made it so ambigious that there could probably be the possibilty of a (dare I say it) Code Geass Movie!!!

But in my opinion he's either dead loving Shirley & Euphy (lelouch u dog u) or immortal and hiding out with C.C. and they've probably started to live on their own by starting an orange plantation where Jeremiah & Anya are working 4 them but that take as u will, I believe that he's alive and out in hiding but we'll never know now will we?

Last edited by El_Negro; 2008-09-30 at 07:18.
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Old 2008-09-30, 06:46   Link #3236
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deliberation View Post
I for one thinks Lelouch is alive but maybe he's not the cart driver. My book is about him being alive or dead is 50/50. Because there are evidence that points out he might be dead but at the same there are are evidence with him being alive.
:P If you're going to say that, then please provide said evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
C.C.'s final lines: 'The power of Geass brings one solitude. Well, that's not quite right. Isn't it, Lelouch?' And while saying that, she doesn't seem sad one bit and she isn't crying. I doubt she would be ecstatic is she had to spend eternity alone and on the run.
Alone, perhaps; on the run, no. As for C.C. not crying, you might want to consider the scene where she's praying for Lelouch and talking about him atoning for his sins during his death. Given this, it is much more plausible to attribute C.C.'s happiness to vaguely the same cause as Kallen's.

Quote:
Either way, Lelouch was able to pull his plan off. Whether you want to believe he's alive or dead, that's up to you. I prefer to think he's alive and spending eternity with C.C. It's your right to pick which option you want to believe. Just don't go forcing it on everyone. And remember, the Japanese love open-ended endings.
Heh, well no, of course I can't go around forcing my opinion on everyone. What I can do, however, is go around expressing my opinion on their opinions, and force them to actually back them up. Since, as far as I'm concerned, I've never felt it was one bit ambiguous that Lelouch was dead, and I've only even watched through the whole episode once--that is how weak all the "Lelouch is alive" speculation has been thus far.

Quote:
Don't bust an artery over this. Just enjoy the ending for what it was and the series for what it was, be glad you got to see it all, then move on.
Damn straight, I loved the ending. Totally redeemed Lelouch's character for me. Precisely why I'm going to take a bit of time to stop people from blindly turning him into a douchebag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeu View Post
In truth, we couldn't tell from the scene. Just as with C.C.'s playback memmories, her eyes looked pretty dead to me, but thats subjective.
Are you kidding me? C.C. wasn't even dead in that shot. She's sitting up, her eyes are closed, and there are no gray shadows. The fact remains, all characters who have recieved gray shadows under their eyes have died, and no (still immortal) immortal has ever been shown with those shadows.

Quote:
In truth, this is also too ambiguous to discern if he was immune to it or not. Otherwise viewers would be "HAHAHAHA LELOUCHE YOU FAILED"... but nope, we all thought he somehow got it in, but maybe it didn\t work? And would Lelouche be fooled as easily if some of us here weren't?
Actually bother to read the evidence. As I said, the same animation was shown twice for Charles recieving Lelouch's geass that episode--once before he died, and once after. In both cases, the geass failed.

Quote:
Then why did C.C. go after Lelouche? She lost sight of what she wanted? Cared for the world? Been lying to everyone? Perfect fail of an immortal character? Things can be stated flat out in any of the turns and not make sense if taken as a whole. Sure in that particular turn it made sense, but its absolute rubbish if you ask me. She went after Lelouche so that the Ragnarok Connection would not be complete. She went after Lelouche because she actually thought about the world. She went for Lelouche because it was her own will to do it. Aww whatever, most probably a failed plot anyway.
Indeed, plot rubbish. There are probably vague explanations offered within the show, but nonetheless this is irrelevant to whether Lelouch is alive or dead.

Quote:
And did II say anything about needing Lelouche to keep his geass? No, in fact, I believe he lost it. =D
This was in response to some earlier posted theories as to how Lelouch could 'supposedly' have both a Code and Geass at the same time. Glad we agree its bollux.

Quote:
No evidence for this. We cannot tell from V.V.'s almost dead state.
V.V. says "I will take on that fate...the fate of immortality." Given that he'd been immortal for some 50 odd years already, it's clear that his memories had been reverted.

Quote:
Hmm I thought they made it pretty clear that Mao didn't want C.C. to die, he wanted her 'alive'. Ironically enough... if C.C. wanted to give her code away, she could have done so with CHARLES... so whatever, that plot kind of failed too, just to jam in some action with.... "WHAT IF HE CAN READ YOUR MIND LELOUCHE!?" and how to beat it.
C.C. wasn't interested in killing her contractor either. Regardless, given that the generally proposed theory is that Lelouch obtained Charle's Code within approximately five minutes of reaching dual Geass, his actual capacity to do so is more than questionable.

Quote:
Thats pure speculation. She can take his code too no? In ths case, we cannot tell, too much ambiguity, more plot holes, sad to say, the series failed to cover up properly, whatever.
Heh, sure whatever. This isn't particularly relevant to my point anyway.

Quote:
And why would they if they want to keep it ambiguous? Truth is, the scene hardly made any sense other than.... quite clearly... Charles lunged at Lelouche and grabbed him with his right hand.. which bears his sigil of the code. For fun? yeah, whatever, keep fans guessing, so on so forth.
For fun? Certainly. Unless you are trying to imply that Charles was trying to give Lelouch his Code Let's see you try to explain that one.

Quote:
...blather...
What? No. Who ever said C.C. had planned it? C.C.'s last line obviously reflects a betrayal of her expectations (that geass would make Lelouch lonely), so obviously it wasn't "just as planned".

Quote:
As you said... indeed it is shocking. WOW Maybe we need some reality check and admit that code geass is indeed full of plotholes?
Indeed, Geass leaves many things unexplained. One thing it doesn't leave unexplained, however, is that Lelouch is dead. Listen: 'plotholes' are unintentional. This means they were neither planned by the authors nor expected to affect disparate parts of the plot. All pro "Lelouch got a Code" speculation has relied exclusively on unintended interpretations of scenes, many of which aren't so open ended as people think they are. The fact that "Lelouch is alive" interpretations rely exclusively on these plotholes,means that they are completely non-canon.

Quote:
Yeah whatever, the case we should be discussing are plotholes to be exploited, given so much ambiguity all over apart from this guy's face, and I never really gave a crap about that tommorow rubbish of Lelouche, because he wasn't needed for it to happen. In such a story full of holes, you never know what is sure thing and what is rubbish.
Heh, so you don't even care about what has defined Lelouch's entire character? I wonder why you're even bothering to argue he's alive, then.

Quote:
Here's another one to swallow... about the death scenes argument. Suzaku should have died. There was no cockpit ejection. The Lancelot was never fitted with one, maybe then it was in the Albion, but whatever, in the scene of the explosion, it was clearly shown that nothing flew through the back of it with respect to the position of the KMF. If ya want a similar scene of death, in S1... Inoue was blown up in a similar manner, she remained dead. Countless others died in a similar manner as well... why did Suzaku survive? Live command by the geass does not grant bodily immunity.
Figure this one out yourself, since it was explicitly stated Suzaku's apparent death was a requirement for Zero Requiem. Regardless, this is completely irrelevant to Code Geass' schema for actual, permanent death scenes, where a character recieves several minutes of touching dialogue while having dark shadows under their eyes.

Quote:
Wow, you win, nice pwnage eyes you've got there, wow. Even now I still feel a little blind for not being able to see his whiskers clearly... ahh some lighter textures over his mouth and under his nose... couldn't have been the angle of the sun even though the shadows casted by the horses heads were similar to that of his hat to his nose.

In reality, he wasn't masked at all. He needed a mask on all the time, even in the country to survive, whether or not he was alone, whatsoever. Lelouche kept C.C. in his plans, but totally out of the line of fire of the public by keeping her appearances off the media.

This is most probably your line of thought, or would be in attempt to justify C.C.'s apparent lack of disguise. And Jeremiahs...

Ok whatever.
Heh, what? This isn't even comprehensible.

Quote:
Yeah she must have anticipated or known that the old man was supposedly 'deaf' or something to be muttering something out loud with some one so close by, to talk about geass (ok maybe they don't no jack about that...) and... to show her approval of Lelouch(which the whole world cept those who knew him have already condemned beyond anything... as can be shown with Cornelia's line... "THE DEMON KING IS DEAD, RELEASE THE HOSTAGES AT ONCE!")
Heh, what's an old man gonna do to her? She's immortal, remember?

Quote:
Whatever, if it was really an old man... they needn't have chucked his face out in the next shot. And besides... i'm now downloading a higher res version of the episode... to show clearly what a lower res version already did.... there is indeed a white mask like little bit of cloth in the inside of his collar. There is no harm is showing bits of his gruffy whiskered face in this shot... so why did the animators do it? Fun? More plot holes exploitation? whatever?

Spoiler for whatever:
Don't worry, I've had the HD version from the start. That white spot is clearly the collar

Spoiler for here:


as seen in my previous picture. What is even your point in bringing that up, though? We have already established that the wagon driver is some old guy with white whiskers, not Lelouch.
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Old 2008-09-30, 06:55   Link #3237
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by don1235 View Post
Not really, He can breakup Britainia or accept the slight loss of power.
And you think that wouldn't have any impact on the Britanian's national pride? And that Xing Ke and the others wouldn't have protested when it turned out the rulers of the other chunks of Britania somehow always voted as Lelouch did?

Quote:
Afterall rebellion in Britainia can be putted down by force like he did to the nobles.
The nobles are a small minority. You can't wage war on more than half of your own country - especially if you want to stay Mister Nice Guy.

And heck, how is oppressing your own people somehow better than war?

Quote:
Further even without joining the UFN, he can make peace and promote understanding with individual nations through Cultural exchange programs, trade agreements, peace treaties and financial assistance can be used as tools. Even if they donít trust you, try again and again for, say 30 years (BUT THIS IS CODE GEASS SO THERE MUST BE WAR NOT SILLY Negotiations).

From what I know many individual nations have a good impression on him. China and Japan isn't the whole of UFN. By engaging in war he caused the death of many people, which is ridiculous.

The point wasn't everlasting peace - to give people a fresh start. Well, I think that
with his father Charles' death, he already have the fresh start. Afterall Charles has been the one to cause so much suffering. So his actions were redundant.
Maybe... If Schneizel hadn't been there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by killbethy View Post
Britannian citizens wouldn't become "1/5 citizens." The UFN's suggestion that Lelouch relinquish part of his vote was completely reasonable so he wouldn't hold the majority vote.
It still came out as "Every person in the UFN's equal, except the Britanian, who are each only worth 0.2 human being."

Quote:
Even limited down to 20%, that is still very substantial.
10%, actually. (20% of half the world) It's not so much. How many do China and India have? Are they willing to give up 80% of their votes so as not to overwhelm smaller nations?

Quote:
Not to mention, if he had continued by completely freeing the Areas and giving them their own independence (which he just gave them back their names, not quite freeing them), the vote would have been decreased naturally.
I thought he'd already freed the Areas. Didn't they say so?

Quote:
Also, the majority of the UFN delegates were confused by Lelouch being trapped in the Geass-preventative box (not knowing his ability), stating that he wasn't the bad emperor and had been good to them (destroying the nobility system within Britannia and giving the Areas back their identities). The only members of the UFN that would have wanted to make Lelouch pay would have been Tianzi and Kaguya.
The leader of the largest nation after Britania and the one who not only is chairwoman of the UFN, but controls the world's largest supply of Sakuradite. and don't forget India, who probably know as much as Tian Zi.


Quote:
Casting Schneizel as the bag guy would not have been difficult after he launched FLEIAs all around the world.
So your plan was to let him kill two billion people? And you think it's somehow a preferable alternative?

Quote:
That's far worse than anything Lelouch did. And again, given the intelligence Lelouch was portrayed having throughout the series combined with the scientific backing of Lloyd, Cecile, and Nina... and the ENTIRE UFN, they could have surely found a way to defeat him. Heck, in one year scientific progressed so far in the Code Geass Universe from seeing the first Float System on a ship (Avalon, Stage 18) to having an entire floating fortress (Damocles).
After he's killed two billion people and broken the spirit of the survivors, it's too late to think about facing him head on.

Quote:
As much as a new start and peace sounds nice... I also find a loophole in that Lelouch forced his peace of "tomorrow" (although very covertly through the Zero Requiem) just like Charles tried to force his peace of the "past" and Schneizel of the "present." In the end, the uniting of the world by Lelouch was by forcible action and scheming... just like Charles and Schneizel.
The difference between Lelouch and Charles or Schneizel is that eventually (a rather short "eventually", too), Lelouch let go.

Quote:
And as sad is it may seem, not everyone in the world wishes for peace. Economies always boom the most during war time. :-/
The overwhelming majority wishes not to get killed in senseless wars.

Quote:
I can name one loose end right now: Kanon. Whether he lived or died was never fully shown.
Or was geassed. Why would Lelouch let him be a loose end?
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Old 2008-09-30, 07:05   Link #3238
tzia_n
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thread has finally relaxed only 8 members and 44 guests viewing at the moment and two hours after my last post it's almost on the same page

you know, kanon could be alive to give way for Code Geass K3: Revenge of Kanon k? k!
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Old 2008-09-30, 07:07   Link #3239
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Kanon of the Kounterattack.
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Old 2008-09-30, 07:08   Link #3240
don1235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And you think that wouldn't have any impact on the Britanian's national pride? And that Xing Ke and the others wouldn't have protested when it turned out the rulers of the other chunks of Britania somehow always voted as Lelouch did?


The nobles are a small minority. You can't wage war on more than half of your own country - especially if you want to stay Mister Nice Guy.

And heck, how is oppressing your own people somehow better than war?

The rulers of other chunk do not have to vote with Lelouch. They can find their own path. Besides more than half of Britainia territory are colonised areas. They don't have pride in Britiania. After the breakup of Britainia, the true part of Britainia will join as a full member with full privilege and right.

Also since Britiania is used to be ruled by nobles, there is no one to organise resistance to Leluoch even if they object. Notice that Britainia ( Beside the KNight of Round) supports Leluoch after he geass all the important nobles.
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