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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 789 63.68%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 163 13.16%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 95 7.67%
7 out of 10 : Good 67 5.41%
6 out of 10 : Average 17 1.37%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 18 1.45%
4 out of 10 : Poor 7 0.56%
3 out of 10 : Bad 7 0.56%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 4 0.32%
1 out of 10 : Painful 72 5.81%
Voters: 1239. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-10-01, 16:30   Link #3601
bladeofdarkness
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why does no one raise the question of not "could lelouch be alive" or "is lelouch still alive" but rather "should lelouch still be alive"
the whole point of that last arc was to redeem lelouch for all the horrible shit he has done during the show (more so during the final arc then any other)
if lelouch died to atone for his actions and to change the world into a better place then hes a hero despite his many Many MANY sins
if he cheated his way out in the end that kinda makes him less of a hero and more of a Karma Houdini
becouse he really does have many things to atone for
and it also means that he stuck suzaku with the bill since he's going to have to live his life behind the mask (which is as heavy as the whole world, according to C.C)
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Old 2008-10-01, 16:30   Link #3602
killbethy
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From the quote above...

You can debate the point about the flashes that Nunnally receives because she previously had a Geass cast on her. Anya receives similar flashes when she comes into contact with C.C. There is no true way to know if someone gets these "flashes" from someone who is immortal or just someone who is also connected to Geass, since the series never really expounds upon that.

As for the fourth point, the Geass Suzaku is referring to is most likely what he and Lelouch talked about in the flashback scene. That Geass is like a wish, and Lelouch is betting on the "Geass" (wish) of the people of the world for him to die. I think at this point they are simply referring to the wishes of the people of the world, but referring to them as Geass as an analogy like they did in the flashback.



Should Lelouch still be alive?

For the series' sake, no. If he is alive, it should be a twist through something he didn't know about. His discussion with Suzaku makes it plenty clear that he went into the last stage of the Zero Requiem fully intending to die. The fact that Suzaku is even questioning how sure Lelouch is about this shows that Suzaku has no knowledge that Lelouch is immortal, meaning that he never attempted to kill him in the World of C, because Lelouch's immortality would have been revealed then. If Lelouch lived, he must have received it accidentally, without his knowledge (through Charles), or without his consent (through C.C. after being stabbed Suzaku/Zero). But since the story of Lelouch has ended, whether he is alive or dead has little relevance.
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Old 2008-10-01, 16:33   Link #3603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
why does no one raise the question of not "could lelouch be alive" or "is lelouch still alive" but rather "should lelouch still be alive"
the whole point of that last arc was to redeem lelouch for all the horrible shit he has done during the show (more so during the final arc then any other)
if lelouch died to atone for his actions and to change the world into a better place then hes a hero despite his many Many MANY sins
if he cheated his way out in the end that kinda makes him less of a hero and more of a Karma Houdini
becouse he really does have many things to atone for
and it also means that he stuck suzaku with the bill since he's going to have to live his life behind the mask (which is as heavy as the whole world, according to C.C)
I actually think if he was alive he still would be atoning for his sins because he would have to give up what mattered most to him and that was nunnally. Him dying wasnt necessary for that. And as lelouch stated suzaku to had stuff to atone for which i guess being zero is his for of atonement.
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Old 2008-10-01, 16:34   Link #3604
CapoExecutor
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I doubt the Codes are exactly the same between V.V. and C.C. Otherwise, only V.V.'s Code would be needed to activate the Sword of Akasha. Each Code may have different secondary properties and effects.

Was there any instance in the two seasons where the collision of two Geass users or a Geassed victim with a Geass user ever triggered memory flash transfer?
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Old 2008-10-01, 16:36   Link #3605
cors8
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Well Rolo and Lelouch, 2 Geass users with opposite Geass givers, never triggered such a memory flash. Lelouch and Mao didn't trigger anything either.
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Old 2008-10-01, 16:38   Link #3606
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness
It also means that he stuck suzaku with the bill since he's going to have to live his life behind the mask (which is as heavy as the whole world, according to C.C)
And that's what makes it F'd up that Sunrise couldn't just close it one way or the other...I also think it's messed up that Schniezel will be a puppet for the remainder of his days...I mean if geass is supposed to die with Lulu and free will must decide the fate of tommorrow, why does Schniezel have to have his pride stripped away if he was a "good guy"? (Not that I thought he transformed into such a good guy based on one conversation but that seems to be over-arching opinion that he wasn't so bad after all)...
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Old 2008-10-01, 16:44   Link #3607
bladeofdarkness
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not just shnizel
all those soldiers who he brainwashed (probably would be put down)
suzaku would have to live his life knowing that he killed his best friend (as well as living under the mask, which would be a nightmare probably)
nunnaly lost the one person most importent too her
of the three people closest to him kallen is arguably the only one who came out ok out of the whole thing but the other two would be carrying quite a pain for the rest of their lives becouse of it
and they wouldnt have to if they only knew he was alive
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Old 2008-10-01, 17:07   Link #3608
Trax
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Cut out some parts, just responding to some points... In your speculation you are making quite a bit of assumptions imo. Everything is open to different interpretations, and no one interpretation can be stated as fact. Which naturally goes for my interpretations as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos45 View Post
Then she fell in love with Lelouch and started to long for a life with him and started caring for happiness and victory which was sort of stated during her final battle with Kallen. Lelouch was the first true love that she had ever felt. For her to display a sort of happiness at the end talking to Lelouch out loud stating that Geass doesn’t bring solitude after all clearly is a sign that he is still alive.
My interpretation of what she said would be that having Geass does not necessarily have to lead to solitude, since towards the end she finally felt that she formed a connection to Lelouch; something she would not have thought possible before. And I think she was just talking to herself.

Quote:
This point stands out even more so that C.C. herself is alive and happy since the only reason she could be both happy and alive is with Lelouch. Otherwise she would either be dead as originally promised by Lelouch, or be completely depressed and distraught that Lelouch did not keep his original promise to her before he died. When I saw her crying at the church, I thought that was the case, but then the very end kills that theory. So Lelouch is still alive.
CC's mind works in mysterious ways, so I wouldn't be surprised if she would just be recollecting fond memories. In the end, Lelouch changed her outlook on things so she opened up a bit. I don't see why she would necessarily be an eternally sad puppy if Lelouch is dead.

Quote:
3) The point when Lelouch is dying, Nunnaly receives the images of what Lelouch planned. The only time that has happened is by C.C. who is immortal. This also supports that Lelouch is immortal as C.C. is or once was.
There's plenty of speculation about the images that Nunnally might or might not have seen, it can be (and has been) interpreted in different ways.

Quote:
4) When Suzaku drove his sword through Lelouch, did Lelouch give Suzaku the power of Geass. This also would suggest that Lelouch is immortal. Suzaku stated that he accepts this Geass. It could have been the curse of being Zero for life and the will to live bestowed by Lelouch’s Geass. Perhaps Suzaku himself now posses his own unique power.
He didn't give him any Geass power imo. Think back to his comparison of Geass and people's wishes. He was passing that wish to Suzaku, who accepted.
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Old 2008-10-01, 17:09   Link #3609
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
not just shnizel
suzaku would have to live his life knowing that he killed his best friend (as well as living under the mask, which would be a nightmare probably)
Thanks for bringing up this point... Some believe that if Lelouch was alive that Suzaku would be angry about this fact since he had been stuck with the task of ushering in the future as a Masked Hero of Justice never to live as himself again...

But honestly, I think he would be relieved to know that Lelouch is alive, specially if it was something that even Lelouch hadn't planned for or intended... Suzaku asked Lelouch if he was sure about going through with the Zero Requiem when Lelouch handed him the mask of Zero... He then cried when he stabbed his friend straight through the chest...

It's obvious that the strong line that was drawn between them with Euphie's death has now been atoned for and Suzaku and Lelouch were great friends again (but with the harsh and strong attitude that their experience had brought them so obviously not as cheerful and full of glee as in the first season)...

I think if there was an alternate path to take at that point other than having to kill Lelouch, he would have gladly taken that path, why else would he even bother asking if Lelouch was sure about going through with the final stage of their plan?
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Old 2008-10-01, 17:09   Link #3610
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trax
He didn't give him any Geass power imo. Think back to his comparison of Geass and people's wishes. He was passing that wish to Suzaku, who accepted.
I think the one part that is clear is that geass meant "wish" in Suzaku's case...
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Old 2008-10-01, 17:11   Link #3611
Naraku
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
I think the one part that is clear is that geass meant "wish" in Suzaku's case...
Yea that was my first and only interpretation of that scene as well...
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Old 2008-10-01, 17:21   Link #3612
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
why does no one raise the question of not "could lelouch be alive" or "is lelouch still alive" but rather "should lelouch still be alive"
the whole point of that last arc was to redeem lelouch for all the horrible shit he has done during the show (more so during the final arc then any other)
if lelouch died to atone for his actions and to change the world into a better place then hes a hero despite his many Many MANY sins
if he cheated his way out in the end that kinda makes him less of a hero and more of a Karma Houdini
becouse he really does have many things to atone for
and it also means that he stuck suzaku with the bill since he's going to have to live his life behind the mask (which is as heavy as the whole world, according to C.C)
I think differently, as many have pointed out in regards to the fact that apparently living is often times harder then simply dieing, more so if one say becomes immortal, and in this case I can see a very good reason for which he would continue to do so. The main criticism in regards to Lelouch's plan was the belief that it would never hold up, that people would simply forget over time, then enters the concept of an immortal catalyst. In this case, he would exceed Suzaku in terms of atonement and responsibility on a more long-term basis while Suzaku establishes the new peace along a short term basis and to a point where people may begin to forget about Lelouch down the line. It all fits in nicely if I think about it in those terms, and I feel gives the whole thing much more closure under those circumstances. He already changed the world as is, whether he's alive or dead the world will still call him a villain but in the end he already is a hero in my book even if the rest of the world doesn't know it
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Old 2008-10-01, 17:26   Link #3613
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
I think differently, as many have pointed out in regards to the fact that apparently living is often times harder then simply dieing, more so if one say becomes immortal, and in this case I can see a very good reason for which he would continue to do so. The main criticism in regards to Lelouch's plan was the belief that it would never hold up, that people would simply forget over time, then enters the concept of an immortal catalyst. In this case, he would exceed Suzaku in terms of atonement and responsibility on a more long-term basis while Suzaku establishes the new peace along a short term basis and to a point where people may begin to forget about Lelouch down the line. It all fits in nicely if I think about it in those terms, and I feel gives the whole thing much more closure under those circumstances. He already changed the world as is, whether he's alive or dead the world will still call him a villain but in the end he already is a hero in my book even if the rest of the world doesn't know it
And that's not that bad an idea TBH, so why leave it all up to assumptions and ambiguity? (rhetorical statment BTW) Why not end it strong on a complete note of closure....Hell if the point of the show was to give him CODE and GEASS that's a great way to end the series IMO, so WHY be all bull$hitty about it?
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Old 2008-10-01, 17:27   Link #3614
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
And that's not that bad an idea TBH, so why leave it all up to assumptions and ambiguity? (rhetorical statment BTW) Why not end it strong on a complete note of closure....Hell if the point of the show was to give him CODE and GEASS that's a great way to end the series IMO, so WHY be all bull$hitty about it?
Cause Sunrise and Taniguichi are a bunch of sadist who want us to pull our hair out and if they ever do go into full details it'll have more impact since there is still so much doubt on the matter, my speculation anyway
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Old 2008-10-01, 17:31   Link #3615
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I actually just recalled this.

People in posession of the Code have been known to trigger sudden memory-links between the Code holder and other people.

Especially those that have been put under the power of a Geass.

Nunally is one such person, whether she defeated it or not.

For Nunally to have seen Lelouch's memories, is it not feasible to think that he must have a Code? After all, I don't recall any such memory-link-like occurances between two people and neither of them posessing a Code.

Just another thought I came up with from reading posts here. I don't know if anyone else mentioned this before, but I'm mentioning it NOW.
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Old 2008-10-01, 17:32   Link #3616
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Originally Posted by Traece View Post
I actually just recalled this.

People in posession of the Code have been known to trigger sudden memory-links between the Code holder and other people.

Especially those that have been put under the power of a Geass.

Nunally is one such person, whether she defeated it or not.

For Nunally to have seen Lelouch's memories, is it not feasible to think that he must have a Code? After all, I don't recall any such memory-link-like occurances between two people and neither of them posessing a Code.

Just another thought I came up with from reading posts here. I don't know if anyone else mentioned this before, but I'm mentioning it NOW.
Mentioned quite often actually Traece, its still up in the air as are many things concerning the whole ending, as always apparently
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Old 2008-10-01, 17:50   Link #3617
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or it could be that the big flash of memories was just Lelouch's life flashing before he eyes as he died. I mean sure Nunally saw the Zero Requiem memories but I doubt she saw anything else.
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Old 2008-10-01, 18:13   Link #3618
brandon279
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
why does no one raise the question of not "could lelouch be alive" or "is lelouch still alive" but rather "should lelouch still be alive"
the whole point of that last arc was to redeem lelouch for all the horrible shit he has done during the show (more so during the final arc then any other)
if lelouch died to atone for his actions and to change the world into a better place then hes a hero despite his many Many MANY sins
if he cheated his way out in the end that kinda makes him less of a hero and more of a Karma Houdini
becouse he really does have many things to atone for
and it also means that he stuck suzaku with the bill since he's going to have to live his life behind the mask (which is as heavy as the whole world, according to C.C)
did you see Ruruni Kenshin (wanderer samurai, samurai X) ?

the question is:

why should lelouch die ?
and
why should lelouch live?


is there a reason for his death ?

redemption?

redemption for what?

what selfish desire did he have ?

the only bad thing is when he geassed Euphy, and that was not what he wanted, it is accident, nothing more.

if he feels that what he had done is bad, then the whole "better" world is bad, because redemption means 2 things, and it must be both of these 2 things together, it is 1 regret, 2 never doing "it" again whatever the causes may be .


so .... is using geass - to free the people from charles and schnizel tyranny - is somthing bad and he regrets it and he 1 regrets it, 2 if he was given the choice again, he would never use the geass ?


NO


then ..... there is no sin to be redeemed from:

use geass is like using gun,

is it a sin to use a gun?
then why dont you start disbanding the army, police, why dont you start calling any resistance hero by "criminal".

the geass is not sin, the bad use of the geass is the what can be considered to be a sin.

did lelouch selfishly use his geass?

NO

is it better if he didnt use it ?

NO.


then there is no sin, so .. there is no redemption to begin with.




so why did he "need" to die?

it is like he stated, it is for ZR, NOT FOR REDEMPTION.

if he dies the chain of hate will be finalized at him, the same thought was in mind of her sister, (in order to save his sister from that fate and to insure that she wont walk in that path, he geassed her), then the ZR didnt need a geass user, it needed some1 who is hated by other.


ZR does not target lelouch for his capabilities, the people who will hate him dont know anything about geass, all they know is a prince who took over the thrown and made himself the ruler of everything and punshis any1 who does not obey .

so the death of geass has no relation of ZR.

ZR is the death of the Emperor and his knight, suzaku needed to fake his death, make an empty grave, then he is effectively dead.

then why the same is not applicable to lelouch?

dont tell me "because lelouch face is exposed" because i will say "since suzaku wears a mask, why not lelouch too ?!"


so ...... is there a reason to die ?

IMHO: NO, it is suicide, it is an escape, it is cowardice where he will rest but leave the things which he promised to achieve to be still undone.

just look to kenshin Homura and you start to know where my thoughts are coming

---------------------------------------------------

is there a reason for lelouch to live ?

yeah, the promise is the reason, the contract, the pay back for the geass, the real price which he must pay for using the geass (and making the whole world happy except CC), he must make CC happy.
------------------------------------------------------

so lets divide the matter into 4 questions:

1) should emperor lelouch die ?
yes, to break the chain of hate.

2) should lelouch the person live?
yes, to complete his promise.

3) should the emperor live?
no, or people will start to direct their hate at each other agin, return to their former sate of war.

4) should lelouch the person die?
no, what the use of him really dying ?
-----------------------------------------------------


what lelouch has made is just a temporary and fragile peace, a few months after his death, every nation will seek freya, they will have KM, a new people will take the chain of command, people like Charles, Schnizel, high enuches, ...etc

lelouch peace was made by putting his own men in the ruling position in every country, but once these people will be out of their offices, his peace is good as nothing.

zerozaku (suzaku zero) is good for nothing, why?
because zero is master strategist, so he is the one who can solve problems, but Suzaku is no strategist, he is just fake image of the real zero, when he will be tested, he will fail (strategy is not suzaku good point).
-------------------------------------------------------

in conclusion:

lelouch death has no reason, there is still things needed from him.

to give hints what he is alive -while he is not (if he i really dead) - is really bad writing and trolling, the director is toying with us, making mistakes (like nunnely sees memories, while he has shown us that she only detect if the person is lying or not, and so on), is trolling.

giving CC a conclusion which cant be named a conclusion, is trolling

not giving any info on the origin, the end, the aim, or anything about the code, while naming the show "CODE geass", is a trolling.

to bring back dead people to just achieve useless happy ending (Cornelia and guilford), while killing the main hero to achieve a useless tragic ending, is trolling.

to build vast character developments, then to throw it in the trash, is trolling.



the whole ending is a BIG TROLLING ending {thats if things really stop at (lelouch is dead, cc is alone, the world is happy, cornelia and guilford, villita and ohgi .... are making babies !!!)}

bye.
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Old 2008-10-01, 18:15   Link #3619
holyman282
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When Lelouch had the flashback it was probably his life flashing before his eyes, I really found that not only nostalgic but touching to know that the last few images were that of the younger happier nunnally, susaku and himself.

As for Nunnally discerning Lelouch's true intentions with just a touch of the hand, that is quite a mystery and I hold to the fact that perhaps the code may of played a part and perhaps he is alive.

Also did anyone find it hilarious that Orange-kun became a harvester of oranges?!
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Old 2008-10-01, 18:27   Link #3620
killbethy
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My personal beliefs will always be that Code Geass ended the way it did (the world thinking Lelouch died, but it being debatable to fans) has nothing to do with the story of Code Geass but purely the director's intentions to not continue the story. I don't think there is any deep meaning behind the Zero Requiem and the debatability of Lelouch's survival other than it ends the story of Lelouch's affect on the world (hence the end of Lelouch of the Rebellion) and not abandoning fans who either wanted or didn't want Lelouch to die. The story ended in a way so that there could not be a third season that includes Lelouch as the protagonist or any pro-active character in the story. They affectively ended it by making it so that any continuation would deem the first two seasons pointless. And that's it. :-/ *shrug*
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