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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 787 63.83%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 162 13.14%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 93 7.54%
7 out of 10 : Good 67 5.43%
6 out of 10 : Average 17 1.38%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 18 1.46%
4 out of 10 : Poor 7 0.57%
3 out of 10 : Bad 6 0.49%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 4 0.32%
1 out of 10 : Painful 72 5.84%
Voters: 1233. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-02-24, 14:15   Link #5001
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
which action that he takes in the last arc did you find awesome ?
I said interesting, not awesome.

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i dont give a fuck about his reasons, just his actions
which ones ?
Well, everything he did had style, so I gues I could call it awesome...
But other than that: his conversations with Suzaku, episode 25 as a whole, his interaction with his precious people in general...
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Old 2009-02-24, 14:17   Link #5002
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no thats just insane, how can you seperate thought process from his actions, the character is defined by the way he thinks. His thoughts are quitisential to making him Lelouch, they build upon him. No matter how creul his acts, he has chosen to justify him, its fine to dislike lelouch but to say taht our thoughts are seperate from our actions is rediculous even for a ficitional character such as lelouch. To only look at Lelouch's actions in vaccum is absurd because his whole essence, the way his character is defined is between his internal monologue and interaction with C.C.
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Old 2009-02-24, 14:18   Link #5003
bladeofdarkness
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his conversations with suzaku and his interactions with his precious people in general are not actions
having a talk is not an action

@Nosauz
i told Nogitsune to tell me about his actions in the last arc that she found awesome
thats what i ment
and when i say i dont care about his reasons its becouse he chose ZERO-R rather then other BETTER ways
he didnt HAVE to choose that path
so once he chose it, i no longer care about his reasons for any action he does AFTER he chose that path
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Old 2009-02-24, 14:21   Link #5004
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
his conversations with suzaku and his interactions with his precious people in general are not actions
having a talk is not an action
Err... is that your definition of "action", or the official one?
Because I'm pretty sure talking counts as an action, just like being comforted by C.C.
Oh well. I'm not going to argue about this.
In my opinion, all of Lelouch's actions were interesting, and he himself is awesome.

And I agree with Nosauz. Just looking at a character's actions is a bit... strange.
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Old 2009-02-24, 14:23   Link #5005
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taking the UFN leaders hostage is an action
blowing up a volcano is an action
talking to someone isnt an action
its an act
but not an action
theres talking the talk, and theres walking the walk

and about his reasons and actions
if he ended up taking on ZERO-R becouse his reasons say there is NO OTHER WAY
then i would be open to the idea of counting his reasons for it
but once we have established that ZERO-R WASNT the only way and most definitly not the BEST way (you said it yourself)
then once he chooses to do it ANYWAY just becouse HE wants to
then i no longer care about his rational for every other action he takes in the commiting of ZERO-R becouse i dont agree with it from the start
this isnt a case of becoming evil to prevent a greater evil
this is a case of choosing to become evil without actually NEEDING TO
and since he willingly chose to be evil when he DIDNT have to
i no longer care about his reasons

i know he needed to blow up a volcano to win the battle
but i dont agree with it becouse he didnt need to HAVE that battle to begin with
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Old 2009-02-24, 14:28   Link #5006
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
taking the UFN leaders hostage is an action
blowing up a volcano is an action
talking to someone isnt an action
its an act
but not an action
theres talking the talk, and theres walking the walk
Depends on the definition.
And technically, giving an order is talking, too.

Oh well. Nitpicking is pointless.
I still think Lelouch is awesome.
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Old 2009-02-24, 14:32   Link #5007
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i'm still sayin all this lelouch get "whacked" is still act besides look

1.there were 2 time skips (any guessing during missing time)
2.orange boy besides let zero-suzaku jump in & said "go" really he is so in the act

besides really this still like a cover-up yet there some things need to be answered (yea any bets for special editons or rebuild of geass-evalation)?!
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Old 2009-02-24, 14:39   Link #5008
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
this is a case of choosing to become evil without actually NEEDING TO
Only from an external logical perspective, but given Lelouch's state of mind after all he had gone through...I think he did, consciously and otherwise, see the need to do so. Not for the sake of being evil, but for the sake of punishing himself instead of washing his hands. Tons of characters in anime have done things I don't think are the best nor the most logical outcomes, but you can still explain their rationale, more or less, from their point of view, even if you disagree with their decisions and would have done something different (this particularly comes to mind in those stories where the protagonist freely chooses to die, instead of living on and finding another way...of which Code Geass isn't the only example, but if I named others this would probably spoil those shows).
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Old 2009-02-24, 14:46   Link #5009
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Only from an external logical perspective, but given Lelouch's state of mind after all he had gone through...I think he did, consciously and otherwise, see the need to do so. Not for the sake of being evil, but for the sake of punishing himself and not running away from what he may have perceived as karmic retribution. Tons of characters in anime have done things I don't think are the best nor the most logical outcomes, but you can still explain their rationale, more or less, from their point of view, even if you disagree with their decisions and would have done something different (this particularly comes to mind in those stories where the protagonist chooses to die, instead of living on and finding another way...of which Code Geass isn't the only example, but if I named others those would probably spoil those shows).
I agree.
And I don't mind what Lelouch did at all. I (almost) wish he would have found the heart to live - far away, if he had to, doing nothing but paying for C.C.'s pizza for the rest of his life...
But I never expected that to happen, and I definitely prefer episode 25.
Also, even if Lelouch hadn't chose Zero Requiem... people would still have died and/or been unhappy - maybe less, but who knows?
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Old 2009-02-24, 15:03   Link #5010
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lelouch needed only to do one thing
stop shnizel
thats it
but he chose to do it in the one way that would hurt the MOST amount of people and cause the MOST destraction
he didnt NEED TO do that
he could have united the UFN with britannia and fought against shnizel with them
and then if he REALLY felt like punishing himself, just shoot himeslf or something
he didnt need to inslave the entire world and kill so many people
and that makes his actions deplorable
not just WHAT he did
but the fact that he did it for no other reason then he WANTED to
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Old 2009-02-24, 15:18   Link #5011
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
lelouch needed only to do one thing
stop shnizel
thats it
but he chose to do it in the one way that would hurt the MOST amount of people and cause the MOST destraction
he didnt NEED TO do that
he could have united the UFN with britannia and fought against shnizel with them
and then if he REALLY felt like punishing himself, just shoot himeslf or something
he didnt need to inslave the entire world and kill so many people
and that makes his actions deplorable
not just WHAT he did
but the fact that he did it for no other reason then he WANTED to
Which is true, because Lelouch felt that he needed to leave his name in history in the worst possible way, which was also part of his punishment, while just quietly killing himself after peacefully reforming the world would be more than what he thought he deserved.

Of course, if you want to put it another way, I think Lelouch was always something of a hypocrite, from the very begining of the story until its end, which allowed him to be such a good actor who always willing to subvert morality, on the surface, but even that didn't prevent him from acknowledging many his actions as evil or simply wrong.
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Old 2009-02-24, 15:18   Link #5012
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
lelouch needed only to do one thing
stop shnizel
thats it
but he chose to do it in the one way that would hurt the MOST amount of people and cause the MOST destraction
he didnt NEED TO do that
he could have united the UFN with britannia and fought against shnizel with them
and then if he REALLY felt like punishing himself, just shoot himeslf or something
he didnt need to inslave the entire world and kill so many people
and that makes his actions deplorable
not just WHAT he did
but the fact that he did it for no other reason then he WANTED to
Lelouch never said Zero Requiem wasn't the best way to go about it.
Just that there were others - ones that didn't require him to die.
He probably was thinking about the world as much as he was tired of it all when he made his decision, and I'm pretty sure the staff didn't want him betray as an egoistical coward. It didn't feel that way to me at all.

Edit:
I think a hypocrite was the one thing Lelouch wasn't (that's Suzaku's job, and I love him for it).
"The only ones allowed to shoot are the ones prepared to be shot." Lelouch stuck with that, just like he never pretended to be a "good" person.
But of course he wasn't always honsest with himself.
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Old 2009-02-24, 15:28   Link #5013
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Lelouch never said Zero Requiem wasn't the best way to go about it.
Just that there were others - ones that didn't require him to die.
He probably was thinking about the world as much as he was tired of it all when he made his decision, and I'm pretty sure the staff didn't want him betray as an egoistical coward. It didn't feel that way to me at all.
It really depends...for some choosing death is being a coward, but for others living on, enjoying his position as the Emperor and pretending everything is alright would also be cowardly, choosing to escape from his punishment. There isn't just one right answer.

If Code Geass wasn't such a tragic story, I think you could have written it in a way that allowed him to have a more positive outlook on life. Which explains why I'm trying to watch happier shows right now.

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Edit:
I think a hypocrite was the one thing Lelouch wasn't (that's Suzaku's job, and I love him for it).
"The only ones allowed to shoot are the ones prepared to be shot." Lelouch stuck with that, just like he never pretended to be a "good" person.
In terms of his actions, I think he was, actually...he despised his father for treating him and Nunnally as political tools and not doing anything to prevent Marianne's death, yet he had no trouble using others as political tools or commanding hundreds if not thousands of people to their deaths, and all of this long before Zero Requiem. That is clear enough.

As things turned out, I repeat, Lelouch was not unaware of the consequences of said hypocrisy though, as he did value morality on a personal level even if he publicly subverted it for the longest time, which makes a difference. I'm not saying he was just the common kind of hypocrite who ignores morality outright, no, but you can't say he didn't act like one in practice. His ultimate end provides closure to him on that front, but even so...it doesn't erase his past actions, including but not limited to Zero Requiem.
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Old 2009-02-24, 15:48   Link #5014
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It really depends...for some choosing death is being a coward, but for others living on, enjoying his position as the Emperor and pretending everything is alright would also be cowardly, choosing to escape from his punishment. There isn't just one right answer.
I think death wasn't a punishment for him, but neither do I believe it's cowardly that he wanted to end it.
If you look at Lelouch's life... it's a complete mess. He could have picked up the pieces and taken responsibility, but when he thought Nunally was gone forever, he just couldn't find it in him.
Every person has a limit, and I don't think it was cowardly of Lelouch to chose Zero Requiem after everything that had happened.
But like so many other things, that's merely a matter of opinion.

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If Code Geass wasn't such a tragic story, I think you could have written it in a way that allowed him to have a more positive outlook on life. Which explains why I'm trying to watch happier shows right now.
I can relate to that. xD
I mean, they even managed to turn a death into a tragic irony after it happened... *looks at Clovis*
Just listening to the Sound Drama puts me in a mood - it's much worse than the actual death scene.
And Euphie's death... well, Code Geass is certainly evil. xD

Quote:
In terms of his actions, I think he was, actually...he despised his father for treating him and Nunnally as political tools and not doing anything to prevent Marianne's death, yet he had no trouble using others as political tools or commanding hundreds if not thousands of people to their deaths, and all of this long before Zero Requiem. That is clear enough.
Hm... maybe that's technically hypocritical, but it doesn't feel that way to me, because Lelouch never pretended to be doing the right thing, which sets him apart from Suzaku, who did almost the complete opposite.
Which reminds me of that nice SuzaLulu manifste on livejournal... I totally agree with the character analyzis there, even though it was done for the first season. And I so fangirl it.

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As things turned out, I repeat, Lelouch was not unaware of the consequences of said hypocrisy though, as he did value morality on a personal level even if he publicly subverted it for the longest time, which makes a difference. I'm not saying he was just the common kind of hypocrite who ignores morality outright, no, but you can't say he didn't act like one in practice. His ultimate end provides closure to him on that front, but even so...it doesn't erase his past actions, including but not limited to Zero Requiem.
Then again, Suzaku is an obvious hypocrite for me during season one, and he wasn't ignoring morality, either, so that can't be it.
I always thought Lelouch was remarkably honest with himself, even though I agree that there were exceptions.
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Old 2009-02-24, 15:53   Link #5015
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Which is true, because Lelouch felt that he needed to leave his name in history in the worst possible way, which was also part of his punishment, while just quietly killing himself after peacefully reforming the world would be more than what he thought he deserved.
I am going to a bit of a backwards walk towards a point you made earlier when you said that the ending while not logically sensible, fit thematics. Which I have to whole heartedly disagree with.

The problem, thematically and as well logically, isn't in what Lelouch thinks he deserves. In theme that works, live by the sword die by the sword. He has every right to thematically seek his own death by the evil he created. But the manner of carrying it out is... well let's go on we'll address it later. It falls into what he was attempting to justify and do for other characters. You have thematic contradiction between Lelouch and Euphemia in R2 that almost renders their interactions in S1 pointless.

Lelouch's idea of "making everyone forget through rivers of blood", while downright idiotic in terms of "how would anyone come to this conclusion", is also a thematic conundrum when put next to Euphemia's ideals and Lelouch's own character development towards her. He is attempting to cover up his own mistake by creating something very close to a world-wide-genocide compaign. The genocide being: if you disagree you die, if I don't like you, you die. This is a contradiction to Lelouch's own motif started in this season where he must dabble in evil to fight evil. Unless, we are to take it that he simply was completely engrossed by evil and became what he had to destroy. But at that point it becomes a logical argument of if that were the case and if he knew it, then he should have killed himself the moment it had happened. His daliance with fixing the world while he himself has become the evil that tainted it is a paradox.

Back to Euphemia, though, the problem arises that repeatedly through R2 she is brought up to him or by him as a guiding compass of ideology. He remembers her desires and her way of doing it. His actions, and even Suzaku's, to make everyone forget her massacre are simply spitting all over her character and ideology. She has, through the conclusion, amounted to a character who's ideals amounted to nothing and could well have never existed. They forgot who she was, and only cared about her name. I could call this character derailment for Euphemia. Thematically, Lelouch's desire to face up the crimes he commits, something he said and realized he'd have to eventually do, were thrown out the window. An entire theme for his character was erased. It was then replaced by martyrdom and attonement. The atonement makes sense... had he actually faced up to his crimes. It simply never happened. We went from 1 to 3, and forgot 2. The progression is mostly logical but its skipping a step.

If we are to talk about in-character, and in-theme, then Lelouch should have truly cleared Euphemia's name. The evidence was already gathered by Schneizel and Cornelia, all he has to do is use it and alter Geass to (say just for example) Refrain. He can do this after he's changed the world for the better by changing the system, and then he can face his punishment for it. Then he can atone.

The story simply skipped the entire part of facing up to your crimes. It was completely skipped.

If I really wanted to point at a thematic blunder, I could point to Schneizel, Charles, Marianne, V.V., and even C.C.. I would have to say that Bismark and Luciano were probably the most consistant characters for Britannia and kept to their character motifs. A loyal soldier for his country, a blood thristy lunatic who fought for his own pleasure. At least they kept to it.

Quote:
Of course, if you want to put it another way, I think Lelouch was always something of a hypocrite, from the very begining of the story until its end, which allowed him to be such a good actor who always willing to subvert morality, on the surface, but even that didn't prevent him from acknowledging many his actions as evil or simply wrong.
This is a good argument for the contradictions to his character but it is also far too convenient. It makes his character to be rather shallow in the end, as nothing more than a walking, talking lie. He would have no "real" character and he'd be incredibly flat.

Some parts of his character need to be genuine, and the problem is no matter how you spin, it just about every possible aspect of him ran into a contradiction at some point or another.

PS: I'll respond to your profile message at some point. XD
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Old 2009-02-24, 18:17   Link #5016
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I am going to a bit of a backwards walk towards a point you made earlier when you said that the ending while not logically sensible, fit thematics. Which I have to whole heartedly disagree with.
That's quite fine, I find your points to be very worth reading even if I don't always happen to agree with all of them.

The thing is, Euphemia is no longer alive and her ideals are limited to what both Lelouch and Suzaku understood, valued and interpreted from them, which doesn't necessarily have to accurately represent her own thoughts and actions as they really were. Especially because there's a huge obstacle: both of them are tragic characters with a huge guilt complex, not objective individuals looking in from outside of their own context.

In other words, I think Lelouch may even think he's unworthy of truly following Euphemia's ideals at this point, although a part of his heart honestly wanted to believe and put them in practice (which is why he gave into her proposal for the Special Zone) and still wants to give others the opportunity to do so. Even if this isn't what Euphemia would have truly wanted, which makes it all the more tragic, I don't think it is unnatural for this to happen. I wouldn't call it a derailment of Euphemia, who is still dead, but of her ideals as interpreted by others, yet it is one I can understand (despite disagreeing with it).

As for Lelouch covering up his own mistake...you might say he can't have it both ways, because it is a contradiction, but I think he is trying to do so. His personal shame may be covered up, sure, that might even be partially out of basic human pride or stubborness, but at the same time he is also making himself suffer by destroying his reputation and, maybe even to a greater extent, denying himself any chance at happiness precisely because he has chosen to engage in such a campaign of repression and political persecution (I'm not sure if genocide is the right term, unless you want to speak of "political genocide", which may seem a little anachronistic even if some circles have adopted it, but that is off-topic).

Regarding the issue of facing up to his crimes...if you want me to be blunt, I think that's a valid example of an omission, due to how rushed the last part of the series was, but it also depends on what you want to make of what actually happened.

You might say ZR wasn't the way to do so, because Lelouch didn't publicly clear Euphemia's name himself, but it seems that was the point of his facing Suzaku, who was essentially prepared to kill him after Charles was already out of the way and apparently wouldn't have cooperated with ZR unless Lelouch's life was on the line. In other words, coming to terms with Suzaku represented Lelouch's facing up to his crime, in private if not in public, considering he was the person closest to Euphemia (other than Cornelia...and even Nina, if you really want to stretch it, but it's implied she was told something off-screen) and whose life he also irrevocably changed by killing his one love.

Unfortunately, we did not get to see how the two of them faced each other before actually agreeing to go ahead with ZR, because I'm guessing such a scene would have made things flow better and would have partially (clearly not entirely) filled the void. Instead of lying to Suzaku, like he did in episode 17, Lelouch would have been forced to tell him everything.

If you want to speculate, it remains to be seen what Suzaku will do in the new status quo. It should already be public knowledge that Emperor Lelouch had a mysterious power which he used to take the throne and to make many soldiers into his slaves. With help from Schneizel or even Cornelia (to whom he might tell the truth in private, why not?) he could very well selectively use this fact and all the previous evidence to clear Euphemia's name as much as possible, even if he had to withhold parts of the truth or make up another lie to make the story work (after all, he is already pretending to be Zero and episode 21, convoluted as it was, kind of justified the use of lies). Or something else, that's just a lazy example.

I think one can be a hypocrite or a liar and still be genuine about certain things...human beings aren't cold, logical robots who never contradict themselves nor their own ideals and intentions, let alone those of their families, friends and relatives. That is why I think flawed characters are more realistic, at least in theory, than those who are perfectly competent and coherent.

Last edited by Xander; 2009-02-24 at 18:56.
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Old 2009-02-24, 19:43   Link #5017
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That's quite fine, I find your points to be very worth reading even if I don't always happen to agree with all of them.
A world with everyone agreeing would be a world without discussion or action.

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The thing is, Euphemia is no longer alive and her ideals are limited to what both Lelouch and Suzaku understood, valued and interpreted from them, which doesn't necessarily have to accurately represent her own thoughts and actions as they really were. Especially because there's a huge obstacle: both of them are tragic characters with a huge guilt complex, not objective individuals looking in from outside of their own context.
Fair enough, that she is dead, but if Season 1 has taught us anything and some points in R2, is that at the very least Suzaku understood her dreams and wishes. Otherwise his lines to Nunally, about following Euphemia's footsteps and his "like Euphie" for Nunally's kindness, would be a bit out of place. Suzaku's guilt complex did not change, or more should not have changed, from when Season 1 ended. He did nothing but gain through the entirety of R2 barring the possible death of Shirley.

So, while I can see your point on maybe Lelouch did not understand, Suzaku in all fairness was presented as if he had. And since ZR is not just Lelouch, and the plan to wipe out Euphemia's crimes with even more blood is not just his idea, the contradiction brought about by ZR falls onto Suzaku's head as well, and far more clearly. Thematic murder is not a term I use often, but in Suzaku's case, it seems applicable. Cutting of a theme, abruptly, to find a means to a conclusion.

Anime is notorious for this little endevour. It is simply in CG it sticks out. Suzaku's "this isn't what Euphemia wanted" when looking at destruction and death, cannot by any logical jump result in "massacre more people so that Euphemia can rest in peace".

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In other words, I think Lelouch may even think he's unworthy of truly following Euphemia's ideals at this point, although a part of his heart honestly wanted to believe and put them in practice (which is why he gave into her proposal for the Special Zone) and still wants to give others the opportunity to do so. Even if this isn't what Euphemia would have truly wanted, which makes it all the more tragic, I don't think it is unnatural for this to happen. I wouldn't call it a derailment of Euphemia, who is still dead, but of her ideals as interpreted by others, yet it is one I can understand (despite disagreeing with it).
I do not see what worth or self-worth really has to do with him doing it her way. If he does it the peaceful way, he's doing no dishonor to her nor is he giving himself more credit. The idea that "he isn't worthy of it" always perplexes me. He is not receiving a reward. This ties into the next stage of facing punishment. If he follows her method, it would be a greater punishment than getting himself killed. "This was the right way all along", is a simple form of that punishment. Taking that into account, I can easily argue that he was not thinking himself not worthy, but that he was simply afraid of facing what he should have done from the start. Lelouch does not like to be wrong, and this can easily be an example of it.

No matter how I look at it, it simply seems like Lelouch brought up the most balls-to-the-wall plan just so that he could have an excuse to die... and by Lelouch I mean the writers. The plan simply offers too many contradictions to his character and Suzaku's. How can you justify Suzaku going from one episode "Geass is evil" to allowing Lelouch to remove the will of thousands of soldiers and killing families for the sake of this plan. Character derailment of this magnitude is not part of a believable plan from any perspective.

The derailment of ideas is a fine middle ground, but this again runs into the Suzaku-factor. He, and even Lelouch, are never presented as not having understood Euphemia or Nunally. That, if anything, is my problem. They suddenly, and rather conveniently, come out to have not understood with no real proper development to that end, especially from Suzaku.

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As for Lelouch covering up his own mistake...you might say he can't have it both ways, because it is a contradiction, but I think he is trying to do so. His personal shame may be covered up, sure, that might even be partially out of basic human pride or stubborness, but at the same time he is also making himself suffer by destroying his reputation and, maybe even to a greater extent, denying himself any chance at happiness precisely because he has chosen to engage in such a campaign of repression and political persecution (I'm not sure if genocide is the right term, unless you want to speak of "political genocide", which may seem a little anachronistic even if some circles have adopted it, but that is off-topic).
Suffer? He suffers nothing but being king of the world for four months and then getting killed. Sufferage would imply long periods of time. A person does not suffer after a day of hunger, its after a week that they are truly suffering. He would suffer if he had to live out the rest of his life in a padded cell hated by the world and attoning for his crimes.

Certainly he loses his chance of happiness, but in doing so he removed the chance of happiness of thousands of soldiers and others he killed for ZR for nothing more than leaving the world in a complete mess with a country that had ruled half the world broken in shambles. The world isn't a lego set, it doesn't just get put back together after you take a hammer to it. Had he only removed his own happiness then I could agree with you, but this was nothing short of just taking the world with him, in some sense of the phrase.

Genocide was meant in just exemplifying the scale of his slaughter. Though massacre would have worked as well.

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Regarding the issue of facing up to his crimes...if you want me to be blunt, I think that's a valid example of an omission, due to how rushed the last part of the series was, but it also depends on what you want to make of what actually happened.
Probably, and omission is what I suspect. They simply omitted step 2. In writing, this is simply nothing short of a pseudo-deus ex machina. Its not the character being saved from inexplicable doom. Its the plot. There is no real conversation or thought process I can see that would lead from 1 to 2 to 3. Unless all parties involved were complete morons. Since step 2 is the problem, they simply skipped over it.

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You might say ZR wasn't the way to do so, because Lelouch didn't publicly clear Euphemia's name himself, but it seems that was the point of his facing Suzaku, who was essentially prepared to kill him after Charles was already out of the way and apparently wouldn't have cooperated with ZR unless Lelouch's life was on the line. In other words, coming to terms with Suzaku represented Lelouch's facing up to his crime, in private if not in public, considering he was the person closest to Euphemia (other than Cornelia...and even Nina, if you really want to stretch it, but it's implied she was told something off-screen) and whose life he also irrevocably changed by killing his one love.
While that is true, the concept of Suzaku accepting the offer given is stupid. Suzaku cannot sensibly accept "let's kill more people so that everyone forgets euphemia". For one, such a plan does not even work. History is not going to suddenly say "Oh Lelouch did all this shit! Let's delete the Euphemia massacre of innocent civilians." Its idiotic at best to come to a conclusion that such a plan would work.

It is irrevocably stupid and a stain on both their characters to call that their justification, even in part, for their actions. I did not see any Fahrenheit 451 action going on. Simply put a part of the justification for ZR makes no bloody sense. None. None at all.

If anything, I would argue it being just Lelouch's way of getting Suzaku in the fold, but even that is simply a stretch and dimunitive of Suzaku's intelligence. If I had been in Suzaku's place, or any sane human to whom Euphemia had been precious, I would have just shot him or slapped him or beaten him senseless.... Or given him a history book. Analoged history cannnot be forgotten.

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If you want to speculate, it remains to be seen what Suzaku will do in the new status quo. It should already be public knowledge that Emperor Lelouch had a mysterious power which he used to take the throne and to make many soldiers into his slaves. With help from Schneizel or even Cornelia (to whom he might tell the truth in private, why not?) he could very well selectively use this fact and all the previous evidence to clear Euphemia's name as much as possible, even if he had to withhold parts of the truth or make up another lie to make the story work (after all, he is already pretending to be Zero and episode 21, convoluted as it was, kind of justified the use of lies). Or something else, that's just a lazy example.
Plausible, but they never addressed it. Leaving me to suspect that they really did not think that far ahead. You are doing them a favor by filling in this blank that they should have done themselves as a completion of their story.

No result means an incompleted story.

The problem continues to arise though that without Lelouch there to accept his crime, passing off the "he did it" would be difficult to truly prove. I can easily spin the argument back to say that the clearance would not be accepted because it would just be the royals trying to clear another murderer. Unless someone directly claims responsibility and can be for lack of a better phrase "stoned by the mob", you're not going to get that far.

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TI think one can be a hypocrite or a liar and still be genuine about certain things...human beings aren't cold, logical robots who never contradict themselves nor their own ideals and intentions, let alone those of their families, friends and relatives. That is why I think flawed characters are more realistic, at least in theory, than those who are perfectly competent and coherent.
Oh I certainly agree that flawed characters are realisitc. But in the case of justifying some of Lelouch's "actions" would have to take him into being overly flawed and unrealistic. Humans may be flawed but even they have a limit to their stupidity... and Lelouch is supposed to be a genius.

I never though I'd be banking on the limits of human stupidity to make a point. CG has brought about a new low.
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Old 2009-02-24, 20:08   Link #5018
Nosauz
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Age: 25
Ah human stupidity, clearly you are not an american tv executive, because if you were, it would be illogical for you to believe the veiwing public to have an iq greater than the previous president. The problem with these type of stories, is that the try to go with insane hyperbole to get across a point that is completely vapid, like true justice? Are you kidding me, there is no justice in the world so the possibility for it to be obtained in a fictional world depicting a real world is even more absurd. But it is possible that the entire universe of CG is just ridiculously stupid, I mean Ougi as prime minister of a country, nuff said.
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Old 2009-02-24, 20:51   Link #5019
bladeofdarkness
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Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 29
as a whole, ZERO-R doesnt make much sense from a story telling point of view (since it derails most of the cast)
my personal pet theory is this
they wanted suzaku and lelouch to work together becouse its what the fans wanted to see (like jeremia returning or sayoko being a ninja)
but they also needed a way to have the final lancelot albion vs guren SEITEN battle (it IS a mecha anime after all)
having lelouch do ZERO-R and become a villain is the only realistic way they could have pulled it off
again this is just my little pet theory (the other theory i have is they just said "fuck it, lets just have a big battle in the end, the details dont really matter")
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Old 2009-02-24, 21:36   Link #5020
azul120
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I don't think Lelouch used, or would have needed to use, the "shed more blood than Euphemia" line to convince Suzaku to join him. Not to mention that Lelouch actually did agree to Euphemia's idea for the SAZ right before his Geass went out of control. So basically his refusal to honor Euphemia by more peaceful means instead wasn't an issue of refusing to admit he was wrong, because it wasn't entirely his own fault, but rather his own idea of becoming the focus of the world's hatred, so that Suzaku would later take him down, and all the hatred with him, illogical as it was.

One other example of character derailment, if having to do with inadequate development, would be Cornelia. Funny how she goes from "Kill all numbers!" to her outrage towards Schneizel's ruling by fear idea.
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