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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 789 63.68%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 163 13.16%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 95 7.67%
7 out of 10 : Good 67 5.41%
6 out of 10 : Average 17 1.37%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 18 1.45%
4 out of 10 : Poor 7 0.56%
3 out of 10 : Bad 7 0.56%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 4 0.32%
1 out of 10 : Painful 72 5.81%
Voters: 1239. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-02-24, 21:58   Link #5021
Xander
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
Fair enough, that she is dead, but if Season 1 has taught us anything and some points in R2, is that at the very least Suzaku understood her dreams and wishes. Otherwise his lines to Nunally, about following Euphemia's footsteps and his "like Euphie" for Nunally's kindness, would be a bit out of place. Suzaku's guilt complex did not change, or more should not have changed, from when Season 1 ended. He did nothing but gain through the entirety of R2 barring the possible death of Shirley.
I suppose I must still play the devil's advocate, in more ways than one...Suzaku seemed to understand while Euphemia was alive as well as in some later instances, particularly when it became clear Nunnally was following in her footsteps, but that didn't prevent him from acting in ways contrary to her ideals from time to time, starting with his (understandable) rage at the end of season one to his accepting the Emperor's order to "use" Nunnally if Lelouch regained his memories, as well as his reactions to the deaths of Shirley and to the millions killed by the non-nuclear bomb (which isn't spelled out as much as it should be, but is actually very important, considering nothing he did during ZR even remotely approached that level of carnage), which is when, in a manner of speaking, he actually lost it and went over the line he had tried to restrain himself from crossing again during both seasons.

I don't think Suzaku was thinking that Euphemia would agree with the way ZR turned out, not at all...but at least you could see he was being swayed by his desires for vengeance in her name, for making Lelouch pay and for achieving results instead of focusing on methods which had failed him. Quite a few times he did manage to pull back and choose the right path (or a better one), but towards the end of the show he did not.

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I do not see what worth or self-worth really has to do with him doing it her way. If he does it the peaceful way, he's doing no dishonor to her nor is he giving himself more credit. The idea that "he isn't worthy of it" always perplexes me. He is not receiving a reward. This ties into the next stage of facing punishment. If he follows her method, it would be a greater punishment than getting himself killed. "This was the right way all along", is a simple form of that punishment. Taking that into account, I can easily argue that he was not thinking himself not worthy, but that he was simply afraid of facing what he should have done from the start. Lelouch does not like to be wrong, and this can easily be an example of it.
That is a philosophical difference, and as such a valid question, but I don't see why Lelouch, being who he was and given his track record, would necessarily choose that option when he's almost always preferred to do something different. The end of season one has him playing the role of a demon in front of Suzaku and Kallen, instead of honestly humbling himself and trying to explain what really happened. The same thing goes for his reaction to the betrayal in R2 19 or his lying to Suzaku in R2 17.

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No matter how I look at it, it simply seems like Lelouch brought up the most balls-to-the-wall plan just so that he could have an excuse to die... and by Lelouch I mean the writers. The plan simply offers too many contradictions to his character and Suzaku's. How can you justify Suzaku going from one episode "Geass is evil" to allowing Lelouch to remove the will of thousands of soldiers and killing families for the sake of this plan. Character derailment of this magnitude is not part of a believable plan from any perspective.
Suzaku had already snapped after becoming co-responsible (at least) for the deaths of millions in episode 18, which may make those abuses you denounce seem very much smaller in comparison. Even if you wanted to use a liberal estimate for the casualties caused by ZR, I don't think you can honestly say the death counts are going to be equivalent, let alone the collateral damage.

I think this was rather underplayed in the show, but that factor is something one can't really forget when discussing Suzaku's behavior. If anything, I think that would go a long way towards explaining why he changed so quickly, even if his actions seem erratic on the surface. Lelouch, of course, is also responsible for this because of the Geass command, but one can't say this doesn't put a huge weight on Suzaku's shoulders, especially from his own perspective. Remember that just killing his own father had already forced him to radically change.

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The derailment of ideas is a fine middle ground, but this again runs into the Suzaku-factor. He, and even Lelouch, are never presented as not having understood Euphemia or Nunally. That, if anything, is my problem. They suddenly, and rather conveniently, come out to have not understood with no real proper development to that end, especially from Suzaku.
I would say it wasn't properly explained during the show itself, but in addition to what has been said before, I believe there are a number of instances in both seasons which show Suzaku, despite his attempts to do otherwise, wasn't always acting perfectly in line with Euphemia's ideals, especially while seized by his other emotions due to different circumstances.

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Certainly he loses his chance of happiness, but in doing so he removed the chance of happiness of thousands of soldiers and others he killed for ZR for nothing more than leaving the world in a complete mess with a country that had ruled half the world broken in shambles. The world isn't a lego set, it doesn't just get put back together after you take a hammer to it. Had he only removed his own happiness then I could agree with you, but this was nothing short of just taking the world with him, in some sense of the phrase.
He's removed the chances for happiness from lots of people if you count everything he did as Zero too, which is another part of his crimes and, from his point of view, yet another reason why he has to die.

But the rest really depends on how much you want to question the status quo presented by the show at the end. In my humble opinion, that's a situation which goes against the more cynical views even if those could be more realistic (but then again, this show has only occasionally tried to be realistic, even back during the first season). Going by what we actually see for ourselves, the world may be a mess but is certainly not worse off than it was before. You may think that's stupid, but that's the way it is presented. Britannia lost all its Areas and its nobility was crushed, being in no shape to start any wars (the conquering armies were made up of slaves to Lelouch, who no longer exists), and the UFN seems to be the predominating system. I don't think this is going to last forever either, not by a long shot, but at the time that's how it is.

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Probably, and omission is what I suspect. They simply omitted step 2. In writing, this is simply nothing short of a pseudo-deus ex machina.
Whether it would be convincing or not, I do think they could have come up with something, if they had wanted to dedicate enough time to do so.

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While that is true, the concept of Suzaku accepting the offer given is stupid. Suzaku cannot sensibly accept "let's kill more people so that everyone forgets euphemia". For one, such a plan does not even work. History is not going to suddenly say "Oh Lelouch did all this shit! Let's delete the Euphemia massacre of innocent civilians." Its idiotic at best to come to a conclusion that such a plan would work.
I don't think that part of the plan is meant to be taken as literally forgetting or erasing her from history, but if you do, then I agree it isn't logically defensible. Still, I think the other points have already been addressed.

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Plausible, but they never addressed it. Leaving me to suspect that they really did not think that far ahead. You are doing them a favor by filling in this blank that they should have done themselves as a completion of their story.
I suppose, no denying that is sloppy and a flaw on the side of the writers, but then again it is still within the viewer's prerrogatives, like many other things are, when not contradicted by canon.

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Oh I certainly agree that flawed characters are realisitc. But in the case of justifying some of Lelouch's "actions" would have to take him into being overly flawed and unrealistic. Humans may be flawed but even they have a limit to their stupidity... and Lelouch is supposed to be a genius.

I never though I'd be banking on the limits of human stupidity to make a point. CG has brought about a new low.
This is just me, yet considering this has come up several times, not just when talking about Code Geass but also other shows with "geniuses"....I've never thought real geniuses are better than most human beings in most respects, or somehow incapable of bouts of stupidity or simple stubborness...they are just capable of greater displays of intelligence, but even that's not supposed to be a constant.

In other words, geniuses can be irrational, just like all human beings are, especially if you put them in convoluted, melodramatic situations. Some people in this world tragically kill themselves for what are foolish reasons, even if they had promising careers or honors, which would normally be signs of having some smarts.

In the end, Code Geass R2 is still a flawed show with many signs of lazy writing, that much I will never deny, but like I said before...I think it has some thematic strengths, even if it's also logically weak at the same time.

Last edited by Xander; 2009-02-24 at 22:41.
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Old 2009-02-24, 22:45   Link #5022
Frostfire
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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
Suzaku seemed to understand while Euphemia was alive as well as in some later instances, particularly when it became clear Nunnally was following in her footsteps, but that didn't prevent him from acting in ways contrary to her ideals from time to time, starting with his (understandable) rage at the end of season one to his accepting the Emperor's order to "use" Nunnally if Lelouch regained his memories, as well as his reactions to the deaths of Shirley and to the millions killed by the non-nuclear bomb (which isn't spelled out as much as it should be, but is actually very important, considering nothing he did during ZR even remotely approached that level of carnage), which is when, in a manner of speaking, he actually lost it and went over the line he had tried to restrain himself from crossing again during both seasons.

I don't think Suzaku was thinking that Euphemia would agree with the way ZR turned out, not at all...but at least you could see he was being swayed by his desires for vengeance in her name, for making Lelouch pay and for achieving results instead of focusing on methods which had failed him. Quite a few times he did manage to pull back and choose the right path (or a better one), but towards the end of the show he did not.

--jump--

Suzaku had already snapped after becoming co-responsible (at least) for the deaths of millions in episode 18, which may make those abuses you denounce seem very much smaller in comparison. Even if you wanted to use a liberal estimate for the casualties caused by ZR, I don't think you can honestly say the death counts are going to be equivalent, let alone the collateral damage.

I think this was rather underplayed in the show, but that factor is something one can't really forget when discussing Suzaku's behavior. If anything, I think that would go a long way towards explaining why he changed so quickly, even if his actions seem erratic on the surface. Lelouch, of course, is also responsible for this because of the Geass command, but one can't say this doesn't put a huge weight on Suzaku's shoulders, especially from his own perspective. Remember that just killing his own father had already forced him to radically change.
The problem with this (and I can see your point) is that his actions post-bomb are still preaching Euphemia and her ideologies. He says it when he confronts Charles, and he even preaches about Nunally and evil of Geass against Bismark. Both situations are after his proverbial-breaking by his own actions, but this does not stop him from, after a two month time skip of inexplicable character change, accepting the geassing of thousands of people into a plan of world breaking and massacres. (Not to mention that during the final battle, Suzaku's preaching against Kallen overlaps with Nunally's, and Lelouch's with Kallen's. His ideals are still very present, they just seemed to disappear when convenient.)

Had he not been preaching about the evils of Geass and about Nunally/Euphie post the bomb, then I would have possibly accepted your explanation. But his actions are incomprehensible. Similarly, he threw away the KoO position the moment he had it. The moment he could have finally changed the system by his own methods, the moment Schneizel gave him the power to do it, he threw it away for ZR. It makes no sense. If he is so bent on revenge, he should just kill Lelouch. Doing so at that point, leaves the world in a far better state then it getting torn down by Lelouch.

Schneizel, when compared to Lelouch, has never acted poorly. He has never gone against the people, in fact he says that he follows the people's prerogatives to Suzaku. There is to much stupidity in Suzaku's actions.

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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
That is a philosophical difference, and as such a valid question, but I don't see why Lelouch, being who he was and given his track record, would necessarily choose that option when he's almost always preferred to do something different. The end of season one has him playing the role of a demon in front of Suzaku and Kallen, instead of honestly humbling himself and trying to explain what really happened. The same thing goes for his reaction to the betrayal in R2 19 or his lying to Suzaku in R2 17.
That's the problem, really, its "different for the sake of different". His roles of playing demon in those two situations are, on some level to protect someone, but in his actions at the end in ZR are not for anyone but himself. If anything I would say its actually a bit out of character.

(Season 1: He does what he does for what I see as removing the guilt from both present because it would have been rather fruitless to argue with Suzaku. He has no idea what the man knows.)
(Season 2 Ep 19: He saved Kallen in a situation where he was almost certainly not going to get freed, and she'd have died right in front of him had he not acted.)

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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
He's removed the chances for happiness from lots of people if you count everything he did as Zero too, which is another part of his crimes and, from his point of view, yet another reason why he has to die.
While this is true, he was always about limits and doing what needed to be done. ZR falls off that tight-rope. His actions are convoluted and illogical in comparison to the ones in S1 and through most of R2.

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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
But the rest really depends on how much you want to question the status quo presented by the show at the end. In my humble opinion, that's a situation which goes against the more cynical views even if those could be more realistic (but then again, this show has only occasionally tried to be realistic, even back during the first season). Going by what we actually see for ourselves, the world may be a mess but is certainly not worse off than it was before. You may think that's stupid, but that's the way it is presented. Britannia lost all its Areas and its nobility was crushed, being in no shape to start any wars (the conquering armies were made up of slaves to Lelouch, who no longer exists), and the UFN seems to be the predominating system. I don't think this is going to last forever either, not by a long shot, but at the time that's how it is.
Its not realistic, first and foremost.

If you strip away the happy-tone of Kallen's epilogue, you can see that there are problems. She mentions some of them, but beyond that, the simple status of Britannia is a problem. We are just shown a surface, but in any calm-thought out analysis, there is no way Birtannia is in a good state. Its noble leading body has been ripped asunder. It would be in a situation similar to France after its revolution against the monarchy. Aka, really, really bad.

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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
Whether it would be convincing or not, I do think they could have come up with something, if they had wanted to dedicate enough time to do so.
Doomed plot, make up whatever you can to save it from being a complete waste and pile of garbage. Sometimes, though, garbage that tries to pass of as good is more irritating. (I know I am being overly harsh.)

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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
I don't think that part of the plan is meant to be taken as literally forgetting or erasing her from history, but if you do, then I agree it isn't logically defensible. Still, I think the other points have already been addressed.
Even non-literally, it is still a stupid concept.

I even have to ask, what would be a non-literal meaning to that?

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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
I suppose, no denying that is sloppy and a flaw on the side of the writers, but then again it is still within the viewer's prerrogatives, like many other things are, when not contradicted by canon.
A story needs to be completed by its writers. I do not believe in "open endings". They are lazy endings. A story has to have a conclusion that covers all the bases. You leave open trivial matters, but this was a major theme for Suzaku at the very least.

Major themes, left wide open, is not something you leave to viewers. Just as I would consider how they handled the Geass plot a complete cop-out. The explanation given by Okouchi is nothing more than a bucket of piss for the people who cared about the subplot. They simply had no idea what they were doing with it, if the C.C., Moe C.C., and code contradictions are any indications.

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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
This is just me, yet considering this has come up several times, not just when talking about Code Geass but also other shows with "geniuses"....I've never thought real geniuses are better than most human beings in most respects, or somehow incapable of bouts of stupidity or simple stubborness...they are just capable of greater displays of intelligence, but even that's not supposed to be a constant. In other words, geniuses can be irrational, just like all human beings are, especially if you put them in convoluted, melodramatic situations (some people in this world tragically kill themselves for what are foolish reasons, even if they had promising careers or honors in their record, which would normally be signs of having some smarts).
I do not discount their abilities to make mistakes, but Lelouch's mistakes are beyond human stupidity. They are plot convenience and that is simply unrealistic.
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Old 2009-02-24, 23:39   Link #5023
Xander
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Had he not been preaching about the evils of Geass and about Nunally/Euphie post the bomb, then I would have possibly accepted your explanation. But his actions are incomprehensible. Similarly, he threw away the KoO position the moment he had it. The moment he could have finally changed the system by his own methods, the moment Schneizel gave him the power to do it, he threw it away for ZR. It makes no sense. If he is so bent on revenge, he should just kill Lelouch. Doing so at that point, leaves the world in a far better state then it getting torn down by Lelouch.

Schneizel, when compared to Lelouch, has never acted poorly. He has never gone against the people, in fact he says that he follows the people's prerogatives to Suzaku. There is to much stupidity in Suzaku's actions.
The simple answer is Suzaku's contradicting himself, since he still values those ideals, deep down, but his own actions are no longer limited by them.

Irrational? Yes, but siding with Schneizel (as well as pushing him to act) was already going against his preferred methods and ideals, since that meant engaging in rebellion, which is what he always tried to avoid and why he fought Zero in the first place.

Under normal conditions (and this concept seems to be accepted by one of the non-canon stories which talks about how Charles came to power, if I remember correctly), a Britannian civil war would have probably erupted after the disappearance of Charles, with pro- and anti- Schneizel factions. Maybe Suzaku would have been satisfied with the KoO position, but Lelouch offered him ZR and a chance to get his vengeance almost immediately after dealing with the Emperor. Schneizel wasn't in any position to succeed then, at least not without seizing the moment and taking care of Lelouch first, but that still leaves some problems before Suzaku can quietly retire to Area 11.

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That's the problem, really, its "different for the sake of different". His roles of playing demon in those two situations are, on some level to protect someone, but in his actions at the end in ZR are not for anyone but himself. If anything I would say its actually a bit out of character.
He thinks that the world will be better off without him, since he'll be punished and there will still be a chance for a "better tomorrow" that doesn't depend on a permanent rule through fear (Schneizel) or magical understanding through instrumentality (Charles), even if one could slap him around and convince him otherwise. Without his ever increasing guilt complex, I would accept that as being out of character.

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While this is true, he was always about limits and doing what needed to be done. ZR falls off that tight-rope. His actions are convoluted and illogical in comparison to the ones in S1 and through most of R2.
Like I said, I have few problems accepting that his actions are more irrational and emotional than logical and rational, but there is still some kind of thought process involved.

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Its not realistic, first and foremost.

If you strip away the happy-tone of Kallen's epilogue, you can see that there are problems. She mentions some of them, but beyond that, the simple status of Britannia is a problem. We are just shown a surface, but in any calm-thought out analysis, there is no way Birtannia is in a good state. Its noble leading body has been ripped asunder. It would be in a situation similar to France after its revolution against the monarchy. Aka, really, really bad.
True, but the picture is generally implied to be better than it was even if you consider those problems, and that revolutionary France was able to improve and to rise as a major power, leading to Napoleon's era or even the restoration of the monarchy after that...and so did most of the countries which were totally destroyed after WWII with millions upon millions of casualties.

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Doomed plot, make up whatever you can to save it from being a complete waste and pile of garbage. Sometimes, though, garbage that tries to pass of as good is more irritating. (I know I am being overly harsh.)
And I'm not denying that's a bad thing, compared to what should have been done.

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Even non-literally, it is still a stupid concept.

I even have to ask, what would be a non-literal meaning to that?
I would guess they meant that their sins would be seen as far worse than hers, perhaps by virtue of their global scale and total duration (several months), as opposed to the isolated actions of a mad princess who murdered many Japanese during a single day. Anything else would be entering too much into speculative territory. Nobody would really forget per se though, especially not the Japanese themselves.

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A story needs to be completed by its writers. I do not believe in "open endings". They are lazy endings. A story has to have a conclusion that covers all the bases. You leave open trivial matters, but this was a major theme for Suzaku at the very least.

Major themes, left wide open, is not something you leave to viewers. Just as I would consider how they handled the Geass plot a complete cop-out. The explanation given by Okouchi is nothing more than a bucket of piss for the people who cared about the subplot. They simply had no idea what they were doing with it, if the C.C., Moe C.C., and code contradictions are any indications.
I'm not the biggest fan of them, but I can live with open endings, even if I agree that's a sign of being lazy, rushed or under pressure (all three?).

This is just speculation, naturally, but it seems to me that the whole Geass subplot was always a secondary matter for the staff. However, the much tighter narrative we saw during the first season allowed them to try to set it up during the later episodes as something potentially bigger, when it was increasingly involved in the central story about Lelouch's rebellion. They tried to give Suzaku's abilities an explanation, for instance, using Geass, giving hints to that effect.

But when they changed plans between seasons, they presumably cut a lot of material out and the Geass subplot was quickly shoved back into being only a tool / challenge for Lelouch. They had to scramble to do something with it in the available amount of episodes, since the focus was suddenly placed elsewhere, and it ended up being far less important than it appeared to be. This may not be an accurate interpretation, but the result is still a disappointment.

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I do not discount their abilities to make mistakes, but Lelouch's mistakes are beyond human stupidity. They are plot convenience and that is simply unrealistic.
Fair enough, though I think plot convenience being its origin doesn't mean it can't be explained as part of the character, even if it only partially works.
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Old 2009-02-25, 00:10   Link #5024
Frostfire
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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
The simple answer is Suzaku's contradicting himself, since he still values those ideals, deep down, but his own actions are no longer limited by them.
Even if they are not limited, they are still guiding him right until the time skip where they seem to just up and disappear. He preaches and goes by them for the majority of episode before the skip, and then after the skip, he's like a completely different person... but he's still talking about those ideals at the end. The large oddity is that between the skip and Episode 25, he acts nothing like himself. He is cold, vindictive, and single-minded. These are qualities that were never before present in Suzaku. Even when he was hunting Zero in R2 he was still human(e). Contradictions, sure, he has them, he always had them, but not that large of a contradiction.

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Irrational? Yes, but siding with Schneizel (as well as pushing him to act) was already going against his preferred methods and ideals, since that meant engaging in rebellion, which is what he always tried to avoid and why he fought Zero in the first place.

Under normal conditions (and this concept seems to be accepted by one of the non-canon stories which talks about how Charles came to power, if I remember correctly), a Britannian civil war would have probably erupted after the disappearance of Charles, with pro- and anti- Schneizel factions. Maybe Suzaku would have been satisfied with the KoO position, but Lelouch offered him ZR and a chance to get his vengeance almost immediately after dealing with the Emperor. Schneizel wasn't in any position to succeed then, at least not without seizing the moment and taking care of Lelouch first, but that still leaves some problems before Suzaku can quietly retire to Area 11.
But, this was at the point that he had stopped preaching those ideals. He starts preaching them again the moment he runs into Lelouch and Charles. His actions with Schneizel fit his character change (all be it an abrupt one) but then he (yet again) abruptly shifts to preaching-Suzaku. Its almost as if he had a personality disorder that triggered when ever he saw Lelouch. Some people would call this disorder stupidity.

As for following Schneizel. At the moment that Charles dies, Suzaku has become KoO, Schneizel has support from at the very least Cornelia, the other loyals were expecting him to take power (not Lelouch), and the only real competition in their way was Bismark. He was the only real impediment, and he was one man. While they are in the World of C, Suzaku can kill Lelouch, fulfill his vengeance, and once outside serve Schneizel as his KoO and ultimately retire without any large bloodshed or mountains blowing up. (Further, Schneizel's odd god-complex only comes up when Lelouch acts. In all fairness it is presented as Schneizel's attempt to defeat Geass.)

The reason that Charles' rise was so brutal was because of the bloodshed in competing for the throne. There was no competition in our timeline, everyone expected Schneizel, even his sisters and elder brother. There was no opposition shown to his coming to power outside of Bismark.

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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
He thinks that the world will be better off without him, since he'll be punished and there will still be a chance for a "better tomorrow" that doesn't depend on a permanent rule through fear (Schneizel) or magical understanding through instrumentality (Charles), even if one could slap him around and convince him otherwise. Without his ever increasing guilt complex, I would accept that as being out of character.
He has no reason to take the actions he took, though. He could have stopped Schneizel without dousing the world in gasoline and lighting it on fire. There was no reason for him to make the world burn. The options of making himself hated are plenty. As I said, he was a scared little boy running away from the reality of the world. That is how the ending presents him, along with emotional wreck.

Not to mention that the entire Damocles plot line was complete and utter bullshit. It was designed for the sake of making Schneizel, who had never been such an extremist, the bad guy. There is no reason for the man to go from "the people have spoken" in China to "I will rule through fear because the people want me to". Further, permanent is too large an exaguration, it would have lasted only as long as he was alive. Historically speaking, rule through fear does not mean bad, either. Some the most prosperous empires (where people led decent lives) were led by monsters. The origin of the code of law is a rule through fear, but its contribution is nothing but positive to the greater whole.

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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
Like I said, I have few problems accepting that his actions are more irrational and emotional than logical and rational, but there is still some kind of thought process involved.
I just have a hard time letting this slide so easily.

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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
True, but the picture is generally implied to be better than it was even if you consider those problems, and that revolutionary France was able to improve and to rise as a major power, leading to Napoleon's era or even the restoration of the monarchy after that...and so did most of the countries which were totally destroyed after WWII with millions upon millions of casualties.
The picture would leave off at around where France was when its monarchy had collapsed, but in this case, it would have no standing army, and a nation the size of the world broken over its knee. The analogy I was calling forth was the bloodshed and messed caused immediately after. This is global scale, not national scale.

Most of the countries ravaged by WWII took tens of years to recuperate to semi-decent status. These are nations who received, for the most part, some form of support from the world. In our case the world is in this sad state, who are they going to receive guiding help from? The moon?

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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
I would guess they meant that their sins would be seen as far worse than hers, perhaps by virtue of their global scale and total duration (several months), as opposed to the isolated actions of a mad princess who murdered many Japanese during a single day. Anything else would be entering too much into speculative territory. Nobody would really forget per se though, especially not the Japanese themselves.
I could argue that a massacre of innocents without warning and in cold blood, on the scale as what happened in the SAZ, may well actually trump a warmongering tyrant. Those are a dime-a-dozen in history, the SAZ debacle, however, is a bit more rare and cruel.

Honestly, I am going to be blunt, I don't think Okouchi knows how history works in his creation of ZR. Or if he does, he really did not care about CG beyond salvaging the wreck that it was into something semi-feasible. CGs approach to history went from understandable (S1) to a mockery (R2, and especially ZR).

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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
This is just speculation, naturally, but it seems to me that the whole Geass subplot was always a secondary matter for the staff. However, the much tighter narrative we saw during the first season allowed them to try to set it up during the later episodes as something potentially bigger, when it was added to the central story about Lelouch's rebellion. They tried to give Suzaku's abilities an explanation, for instance, using Geass.

But when they changed plans between seasons, they presumably cut a lot of material out and the Geass subplot was quickly shoved back into being only a tool / challenge for Lelouch. They had to scramble to do something with it in the available amount of episodes, since the focus was suddenly placed elsewhere, and it ended up being far less important than it appeared to be.
My quam is not so much with the obvious, what you stated, but with the lousy cover up. Any semi-decent person would admit "we fucked up", but they had to give us that crock of shit about leaving it purposefully open? Bull. That is simply a full sign of just how much dignity R2 has left. It is bad when something cannot admit its own faults... something it could do before. Though this may fall more on Sunrise than on CG.

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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
Fair enough, though I think plot convenience being its origin doesn't mean it can't be explained as part of the character, even if not perfectly.
In this case, its a bit too hardpressed to explain it.

So much of R2 was plot convenience and nothing more, that its hard to buy that Lelouch's plot convenience was anything more than what it was. Kallen's capture, plot convenience, Nunally's death, plot convenience, two month time skip, plot conveninence. I can list about one thing per episode, some with more than one.
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Old 2009-02-25, 00:23   Link #5025
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Can we just rename this the Code Geass R2 nitpicking thread now? Now I sort of remember why I stopped enjoying this show towards the end. Through little fault of it's own mind you.
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Old 2009-02-25, 00:23   Link #5026
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A world with everyone agreeing would be a world without discussion or action.



Fair enough, that she is dead, but if Season 1 has taught us anything and some points in R2, is that at the very least Suzaku understood her dreams and wishes. Otherwise his lines to Nunally, about following Euphemia's footsteps and his "like Euphie" for Nunally's kindness, would be a bit out of place. Suzaku's guilt complex did not change, or more should not have changed, from when Season 1 ended. He did nothing but gain through the entirety of R2 barring the possible death of Shirley.

So, while I can see your point on maybe Lelouch did not understand, Suzaku in all fairness was presented as if he had. And since ZR is not just Lelouch, and the plan to wipe out Euphemia's crimes with even more blood is not just his idea, the contradiction brought about by ZR falls onto Suzaku's head as well, and far more clearly. Thematic murder is not a term I use often, but in Suzaku's case, it seems applicable. Cutting of a theme, abruptly, to find a means to a conclusion.

Anime is notorious for this little endevour. It is simply in CG it sticks out. Suzaku's "this isn't what Euphemia wanted" when looking at destruction and death, cannot by any logical jump result in "massacre more people so that Euphemia can rest in peace".



I do not see what worth or self-worth really has to do with him doing it her way. If he does it the peaceful way, he's doing no dishonor to her nor is he giving himself more credit. The idea that "he isn't worthy of it" always perplexes me. He is not receiving a reward. This ties into the next stage of facing punishment. If he follows her method, it would be a greater punishment than getting himself killed. "This was the right way all along", is a simple form of that punishment. Taking that into account, I can easily argue that he was not thinking himself not worthy, but that he was simply afraid of facing what he should have done from the start. Lelouch does not like to be wrong, and this can easily be an example of it.

No matter how I look at it, it simply seems like Lelouch brought up the most balls-to-the-wall plan just so that he could have an excuse to die... and by Lelouch I mean the writers. The plan simply offers too many contradictions to his character and Suzaku's. How can you justify Suzaku going from one episode "Geass is evil" to allowing Lelouch to remove the will of thousands of soldiers and killing families for the sake of this plan. Character derailment of this magnitude is not part of a believable plan from any perspective.

The derailment of ideas is a fine middle ground, but this again runs into the Suzaku-factor. He, and even Lelouch, are never presented as not having understood Euphemia or Nunally. That, if anything, is my problem. They suddenly, and rather conveniently, come out to have not understood with no real proper development to that end, especially from Suzaku.



Suffer? He suffers nothing but being king of the world for four months and then getting killed. Sufferage would imply long periods of time. A person does not suffer after a day of hunger, its after a week that they are truly suffering. He would suffer if he had to live out the rest of his life in a padded cell hated by the world and attoning for his crimes.

Certainly he loses his chance of happiness, but in doing so he removed the chance of happiness of thousands of soldiers and others he killed for ZR for nothing more than leaving the world in a complete mess with a country that had ruled half the world broken in shambles. The world isn't a lego set, it doesn't just get put back together after you take a hammer to it. Had he only removed his own happiness then I could agree with you, but this was nothing short of just taking the world with him, in some sense of the phrase.

Genocide was meant in just exemplifying the scale of his slaughter. Though massacre would have worked as well.



Probably, and omission is what I suspect. They simply omitted step 2. In writing, this is simply nothing short of a pseudo-deus ex machina. Its not the character being saved from inexplicable doom. Its the plot. There is no real conversation or thought process I can see that would lead from 1 to 2 to 3. Unless all parties involved were complete morons. Since step 2 is the problem, they simply skipped over it.



While that is true, the concept of Suzaku accepting the offer given is stupid. Suzaku cannot sensibly accept "let's kill more people so that everyone forgets euphemia". For one, such a plan does not even work. History is not going to suddenly say "Oh Lelouch did all this shit! Let's delete the Euphemia massacre of innocent civilians." Its idiotic at best to come to a conclusion that such a plan would work.

It is irrevocably stupid and a stain on both their characters to call that their justification, even in part, for their actions. I did not see any Fahrenheit 451 action going on. Simply put a part of the justification for ZR makes no bloody sense. None. None at all.

If anything, I would argue it being just Lelouch's way of getting Suzaku in the fold, but even that is simply a stretch and dimunitive of Suzaku's intelligence. If I had been in Suzaku's place, or any sane human to whom Euphemia had been precious, I would have just shot him or slapped him or beaten him senseless.... Or given him a history book. Analoged history cannnot be forgotten.



Plausible, but they never addressed it. Leaving me to suspect that they really did not think that far ahead. You are doing them a favor by filling in this blank that they should have done themselves as a completion of their story.

No result means an incompleted story.

The problem continues to arise though that without Lelouch there to accept his crime, passing off the "he did it" would be difficult to truly prove. I can easily spin the argument back to say that the clearance would not be accepted because it would just be the royals trying to clear another murderer. Unless someone directly claims responsibility and can be for lack of a better phrase "stoned by the mob", you're not going to get that far.



Oh I certainly agree that flawed characters are realisitc. But in the case of justifying some of Lelouch's "actions" would have to take him into being overly flawed and unrealistic. Humans may be flawed but even they have a limit to their stupidity... and Lelouch is supposed to be a genius.

I never though I'd be banking on the limits of human stupidity to make a point. CG has brought about a new low.
Looking back their are two things that make sense of Zero Requiem

1. Lelouch was a completely broken man who was a shell of his former self and in his despair he comes up with a bat shit insane idea to pretty much destroy the world so that others can rebuild it while he kills himself and drowns out Euphemia;s name.

2.. The entire thing was an elaborate Suicide by cop to make himself look like Jesus. A guy who goes on a rampage so the cops will kill him will look like a nutcase A guy who dies so that the world will be reborn looks like Jesus. So Lelouch comes up with a plan to kill millions so that when his killed by Suzaku instead of looking like a nutcase to everyone he will instead look like a brave man who gave his life so that the world can be reborn.

If his plan was to rebuild the world he did an incredibly shitty job of it, he left no one outside of the few members of the royal family as competent rulers of Britannia. Japan has a whopping total of one competent leader with a complete idiot as Prime Minister, and the rest of the UFN has no one competent in their leadership.

Between Lelouch and Britannia, the world is pretty much in shambles and no one besides Kaguya, Schneizel, Cornelia, and Nunnaly to fix it.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
as a whole, ZERO-R doesnt make much sense from a story telling point of view (since it derails most of the cast)
my personal pet theory is this
they wanted suzaku and lelouch to work together becouse its what the fans wanted to see (like jeremia returning or sayoko being a ninja)
but they also needed a way to have the final lancelot albion vs guren SEITEN battle (it IS a mecha anime after all)
having lelouch do ZERO-R and become a villain is the only realistic way they could have pulled it off
again this is just my little pet theory (the other theory i have is they just said "fuck it, lets just have a big battle in the end, the details dont really matter")
From the interviews I am pretty sure they wanted to have Lelouch and Suzaku to team up to show the power of friendship, of course by the end of the series both of them are completely broken so its basically the most perverse version of Power of Friendship ever animated.
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Old 2009-02-25, 00:29   Link #5027
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I love how so many people are missing the point of so many scenes. Of course if you wanted to you could make almost any seen in this show look like poor writing, but looked at in the right way a lot of things work out and make perfect sense. Except for Gino, but then again he was a worthless excuse for a character.

Anyway is this thread not just plain over yet? Are you people not bored of this same old dance. It's a shame that none of the good old boys who actually appreciated parts of this show are even around anymore. Is this purgatory for those who couldn't resolve their grievances with it while it was airing? Such a conundrum.

Anyway WTF at some people suddenly forgetting that the Fleija incident in Toyko caused Suzaku to go somewhat insane and twisted him into a person that no longer held any ideas but believed strictly in results. I believe this was covered without any room for question. A lot of this "plot convinience" to me seems more like people just not paying attention to said plot. Let's slow down on the bitching and blame game nonsense and actually think about what we are saying. Okay?
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Old 2009-02-25, 00:36   Link #5028
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
I love how so many people are missing the point of so many scenes. Of course if you wanted to you could make almost any seen in this show look like poor writing, but looked at in the right way a lot of things work out and make perfect sense. Except for Gino, but then again he was a worthless excuse for a character.

Anyway is this thread not just plain over yet? Are you people not bored of this same old dance. It's a shame that none of the good old boys who actually appreciated parts of this show are even around anymore. Is this purgatory for those who couldn't resolve their grievances with it while it was airing? Such a conundrum.
Explain Zero Requiem, Lelouch predicting Schneizel to the point that Lelouch can know exactly what Schneizel will say and even when Schneizel will pause. and how the Black Knights came off like traitorous idiots.

Just look at the scene where Lelouch uses the trick on Mao and when he uses the trick on Schneizel. One was great writing the second was horrible writing that breaks the suspension of disbelief.

With Gundam 00 my problems are more that the scenes I don't like are not my cup of tea, but with R2 these problems are legitmate bad writing.

Personally the whole last few episodes look like they where written over an entire weekend as Okouchi is not normally a bad writer and the first season was really good.

You point out that Suzaku was broken by FLEIJA and I would agree by the end of the series killing Suzaku would count as a mercy kill, but Lelouch didn't come off as broken. messed up maybe but not broken to the point that killing him would count as a mercy kill.
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Old 2009-02-25, 00:49   Link #5029
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
I love how so many people are missing the point of so many scenes. Of course if you wanted to you could make almost any seen in this show look like poor writing, but looked at in the right way a lot of things work out and make perfect sense. Except for Gino, but then again he was a worthless excuse for a character.

Anyway is this thread not just plain over yet? Are you people not bored of this same old dance. It's a shame that none of the good old boys who actually appreciated parts of this show are even around anymore. Is this purgatory for those who couldn't resolve their grievances with it while it was airing? Such a conundrum.

Anyway WTF at some people suddenly forgetting that the Fleija incident in Toyko caused Suzaku to go somewhat insane and twisted him into a person that no longer held any ideas but believed strictly in results. I believe this was covered without any room for question. A lot of this "plot convinience" to me seems more like people just not paying attention to said plot. Let's slow down on the bitching and blame game nonsense and actually think about what we are saying. Okay?
In all fairness, I have not said anything about the collective CG. I am simply speaking of the convoluted, non-sensincal ending. No one can tell me with a straight face that the conclusion to this show was not off the wall. If even for just the entire conclusion to Schneizel's villainy being a tape-recording. If I happen to think that the ending could have been done better by a baboon, I will tell you. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, I cannot quite say that. I can, however, agree with Charred that this ending was nothing short of tossed together the morning before.

If there is anything that the fandom can agree on, which I find rather humorous, is that Gino was the most worthless thing ever created in this show. Even Tamaki does had a point. If we wish to reach a conclusion, why don't we just blame CLAMP for inserting the worthless sombrero into the story? He created a fair share of Code Geass contradictions all on his own.

I don't think I am ignoring the FLEIJA incident, in fact we've been discussing it rather head on. The point is that Suzaku's character goes through a series of flips and flops after the fact that make it rather... perplexing.
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Old 2009-02-25, 00:50   Link #5030
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
Explain Zero Requiem, Lelouch predicting Schneizel to the point that Lelouch can know exactly what Schneizel will say and even when Schneizel will pause. and how the Black Knights came off like traitorous idiots.

Just look at the scene where Lelouch uses the trick on Mao and when he uses the trick on Schneizel. One was great writing the second was horrible writing that breaks the suspension of disbelief.
Yeah, that horrible writing schtick, it's time to drop this one already people. It's getting old. Really old. How about trying to rationalize how it was horrible writing instead of just busting the term like a cliche. Bloody power words like that and "trainwreck", I tell ya.

Zero no Requiem needs explaining now? I thought the show covered this just fine. When Lelouch was in the World of C with Suzaku he had an epiphany. If he could make the world focus on him as it's enemy instead of two nations against each other then they might learn to work together and form a lasting relationship in the process. It's like the theory of the devil and how it unifies members of the church, when people have a common enemy they will work together to destroy it. The enemy of the enemy is ones friend. Of course this isn't necessarily the way it always works in real life and the devil as a common any is kind of a lucky exception, but this is after all an anime and not all anime are true to real life. No, stop, they aren't and I defy people to try and argue otherwise. It still doesn't stop it from working though, that is what is important. I fail to see how this is bad writing. Maybe it's the cliche "bad writing", but in terms of actual bad writing, not really.

Lelouch predicting what Schneizel will say? Kind of a random one, but I'll need you to explain how one is good writing and the other isn't when they are basically the same goddamn thing, before I can really go any further on it. I have nothing to address here you see and the scene explains otherwise explains itself until I have something specific to address regarding it.

Why do I need to explain why the Black Knights came off like traitorous idiots if you already seem to think that's the case? You see....lol...that isn't how it works, your are supposed to be trying to get me to address things you disagree with, not trying to get me to reaffirm things that you do agree with. You seem confused here. Perhaps you ought to lie down and just chew on the first paragraph and then we shall move on.

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If there is anything that the fandom can agree on, which I find rather humorous, is that Gino was the most worthless thing ever created in this show. Even Tamaki does had a point. If we wish to reach a conclusion, why don't we just blame CLAMP for inserting the worthless sombrero into the story? He created a fair share of Code Geass contradictions all on his own.

I don't think I am ignoring the FLEIJA incident, in fact we've been discussing it rather head on. The point is that Suzaku's character goes through a series of flips and flops after the fact that make it rather... perplexing.

Anyway yeah...Gino was the definition of plot convience in this anime, but I'd rather prefer not to talk about him as I'd rather not have Charred Knight seize upon it and go on about it for 10 more pages if it could be avoided. One would do well to limit their complaints in this kind of environment if they ever hope to get anywhere.

As for Suzaku's character, maybe for you but not to me. I chalk it up to his not being quite certain which side he wanted to follow until around episode 21. Then again I never found the loyalty shifts to be nearly as big a problem as so many others did. That seems to be the chief gripe among most who heavily criticize this season, but I mean really, is it that hard to see why the Black Knights might choose to break from Lelouch after what they had learned, even if it wasn't the best of decisions to be made, and is really hard to figure out why Suzaku might choose to side with Lelouch once he found out they had pretty much the same goal? A huge amount of trust was broken among certain characters during the Betrayal episode and if people expected the status quo to remain intact after the revelations that some characters had in that episode then truly they are just engaging in wishful thinking.
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Old 2009-02-25, 00:55   Link #5031
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In all fairness, I have not said anything about the collective CG. I am simply speaking of the convoluted, non-sensincal ending. No one can tell me with a straight face that the conclusion to this show was not off the wall. If even for just the entire conclusion to Schneizel's villainy being a tape-recording.

If there is anything that the fandom can agree on, which I find rather humorous, is that Gino was the most worthless thing ever created in this show. Even Tamaki does had a point. If we wish to reach a conclusion, why don't we just blame CLAMP for inserting the worthless sombrero into the story? He created a fair share of Code Geass contradictions all on his own.

I don't think I am ignoring the FLEIJA incident, in fact we've been discussing it rather head on. The point is that Suzaku's character goes through a series of flips and flops after the fact that make it rather... perplexing.

The only time Suzaku was ever out of character in the first half of R2 was the million zero scene where Suzaku basically lets the entire Black Knights and some civilians go without a fight, and that scene was just badly written as it ignores the fact that Britannia massacres people at the drop of a hat, and that Suzaku wants Zero captured at all cost. Basically its Season 1 Suzaku in Season 2 to make a plot work.

After that Shirley died and Suzaku was under a ton of stress before being completely broken by FLEIJA.

Really Suzaku is probably the least of my problems with R2.

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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Yeah, that horrible writing schtick, it's time to drop this one already people. It's getting old. Really old. How about trying to rationalize how it was horrible writing instead of just busting the term like a cliche. Bloody power words like that and "trainwreck", I tell ya.

Zero no Requiem needs explaining now? I thought the show covered this just fine. When Lelouch was in the World of C with Suzaku he had an epiphany. If he could make the world focus on him as it's enemy instead of two nations against each other then they might learn to work together and form a lasting relationship in the process. It's like the theory of the devil and how it unifies members of the church, when people have a common enemy they will work together to destroy it. The enemy of the enemy is ones friend. Of course this isn't necessarily the way it always works in real life and the devil as a common any is kind of a lucky exception, but this is after all an anime and not all anime are true to real life. No, stop, they aren't and I defy people to try and argue otherwise. It still doesn't stop it from working though, that is what is important. I fail to see how this is bad writing. Maybe it's the cliche "bad writing", but in terms of actual bad writing, not really.

Lelouch predicting what Schneizel will say? Kind of a random one, but I'll need you to explain how one is good writing and the other isn't when they are basically the same goddamn thing, before I can really go any further on it. I have nothing to address here you see and the scene explains otherwise explains itself until I have something specific to address regarding it.

Why do I need to explain why the Black Knights came off like traitorous idiots if you already seem to think that's the case? You see....lol...that isn't how it works, your are supposed to be trying to get me to address things you disagree with, not trying to get me to reaffirm things that you do agree with. You seem confused here. Perhaps you ought to lie down and just chew on the first paragraph and then we shall move on.

Anyway yeah...Gino was the definition of plot convience in this anime, but I'd rather prefer not to talk about him as I'd rather not have Charred Knight seize upon it and go on about it for 10 more pages if it could be avoided. One would do well to limit their complaints in this kind of environment if they ever hope to get anywhere.

.
I don't want you to agree with me I want you to explain how they are not bad writing. You did a great job with Gundam 00.

As for Mao if I remember that scene correctly all Lelouch was doing was basically mocking him and constantly interrupting him, so it makes sense that you could make a video tape of that since all yoiur doing is yelling at each other.

With Schneizel they where having an entire conversation, and Lelouch was able to predict what Schneizel was going to say and when.
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Old 2009-02-25, 01:05   Link #5032
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Zero no Requiem needs explaining now? I thought the show covered this just fine. When Lelouch was in the World of C with Suzaku he had an epiphany. If he could make the world focus on him as it's enemy instead of two nations against each other then they might learn to work together and form a lasting relationship in the process. It's like the theory of the devil and how it unifies members of the church, when people have a common enemy they will work together to destroy it. The enemy of the enemy is ones friend. Of course this isn't necessarily the way it always works in real life and the devil as a common any is kind of a lucky exception, but this is after all an anime and not all anime are true to real life. No, stop, they aren't and I defy people to try and argue otherwise. It still doesn't stop it from working though, that is what is important. I fail to see how this is bad writing. Maybe it's the cliche "bad writing", but in terms of actual bad writing, not really.
My problem with the concept is that idea is banking on a long-lasting threat. The concept is no foreign to stories, in fact it is very prevalent, for the sake of example Lord of the Rings and Sauron, or even Ender's Game, or any story with an invading force and people needing to work together. The problem that arises in Lelouch's plan is that it is a two month threat. There is urgency for unity but there is no time for it. You can see it pretty evidantely at the start of ZR, the people are working together only due to a lack of options (and Gino being with the Order for some utterly contrived reason). Lelouch's victory is relatively swift, leaving the entire cast roughly a few days of bonding time. From which point the world leaders all locked away, likely seperate from one another.

You really never gain a "time of unity". You can say that the world meanwhile united in its hatred but this is only two months. There can not be any long standing bonds formed from this. Its like a guerilla war and coup, no real form beyond "take down the ruling party, take over". Once the leaders are out into the new world and they take over... they've had even less chance to bond.

The logic is understandable, the execution is poor and, ironically, illogical. It simply wasn't something for Code Geass to use as its conclusion, in all honesty.

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As for Suzaku's character, maybe for you but not to me. I chalk it up to his not being quite certain which side he wanted to follow until around episode 21. Then again I never found the loyalty shifts to be nearly as big a problem as so many others did. That seems to be the chief gripe among most who heavily criticize this season, but I mean really, is it that hard to see why the Black Knights might choose to break from Lelouch after what they had learned, even if it wasn't the best of decisions to be made, and is really hard to figure out why Suzaku might choose to side with Lelouch once he found out they had pretty much the same goal? A huge amount of trust was broken among certain characters during the Betrayal episode and if people expected the status quo to remain intact after the revelations that some characters had in that episode then truly they are just engaging in wishful thinking.
I chalk it up to rushed development. If I look at it from that perspective I can willfully fill in the blanks and explain his actions and the inconsistencies within them. The problem there, for me, is that that is not something I have to assume and then do.

When reading a book and running into a problem with characters I won't wonder to myself if perhaps the author did not have a chance to hammer out the idea and try to fill in the blanks. I'll rightfully call himout on sloppiness, even if I understand the intention.

This is an art form afterall, and sloppy art is sloppy.
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Old 2009-02-25, 01:06   Link #5033
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The only time Suzaku was ever out of character in the first half of R2 was the million zero scene where Suzaku basically lets the entire Black Knights and some civilians go without a fight, and that scene was just badly written as it ignores the fact that Britannia massacres people at the drop of a hat, and that Suzaku wants Zero captured at all cost. Basically its Season 1 Suzaku in Season 2 to make a plot work.

After that Shirley died and Suzaku was under a ton of stress before being completely broken by FLEIJA.

Really Suzaku is probably the least of my problems with R2.
Actually your post is poorly written because you didn't pay attention to the episode and because you assume that Britannia always massacres people at the drop of a hat. If only everything were so simple as an effect always bringing about the same resolution eh? Seriously that implication is so poorly thought out that I don't even know why I am replying, but here goes anyway:

The deal had been that Zero would be exiled in exchange for a pardon of all Black Knight members and they followed through on it because they didn't need a million civilians coming down on them or the world seeing them massacring all of these people on live television. Like WTF are you even talking about when you say that Britannia always massacres people. You know what would have been stupid writing? If Britannia had followed through on massacring all of those people in broad daylight. It would have been a massive public relations disaster for them that they simply couldn't afford if they hoped to maintain order in Japan. Plus as Rohmeyer pointed out, that was a huge workforce that they did not want to lose if it could be avoided. Pull the trigger and wipe out all of the people who could work for the empire, or let them go and hopefully get them back later once the rebellion is all over. The decision seems obvious to me.

You need to think before throwing out the bad writing cliche next time. Hold that one in boy, because it just ain't flyin'.

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My problem with the concept is that idea is banking on a long-lasting threat. The concept is no foreign to stories, in fact it is very prevalent, for the sake of example Lord of the Rings and Sauron, or even Ender's Game, or any story with an invading force and people needing to work together. The problem that arises in Lelouch's plan is that it is a two month threat. There is urgency for unity but there is no time for it. You can see it pretty evidantely at the start of ZR, the people are working together only due to a lack of options (and Gino being with the Order for some utterly contrived reason). Lelouch's victory is relatively swift, leaving the entire cast roughly a few days of bonding time. From which point the world leaders all locked away, likely seperate from one another.
Yes it certainly does little to address the possibility of a lasting threat. However, if Lelouch could give the world piece in this generations time then wouldn't that be enough. There is indeed no such thing as an end to conflict and there is nothing stopping one from arising again in this universe (sequel anyone?), but the show ended in the first peace in that world in a long long time. I say that's something accomplished, even if there's still lots of work to be done.

Quote:
You really never gain a "time of unity". You can say that the world meanwhile united in its hatred but this is only two months. There can not be any long standing bonds formed from this. Its like a guerilla war and coup, no real form beyond "take down the ruling party, take over". Once the leaders are out into the new world and they take over... they've had even less chance to bond.
Addressed above, but I defy that. You can never have eternal peace, but there can be a time of unity. Fpr example, during the 20th Century countries like the UK and Germany were at odds, but now they are steadfast allies. Same with Britain and France who had many eras of peace and warfare between them through the middle ages. This is like an end to the hundred years war, some may also call it a detente, although I think it's a little bit between a detente and a peace. Where are you getting two months from though? Anyway, at least this isn't as idealistic as the end to Gundam Wing which flat out goes, "And weapons called Mobile Suits were never seen again", implying a lasting peace, which just gets a "Pfft yeah right!" from me. I can't recall an instance were they called this ending a lasting peace, but feel free to point out to me where you think it might have been the case.

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The logic is understandable, the execution is poor and, ironically, illogical. It simply wasn't something for Code Geass to use as its conclusion, in all honesty.
Ohhh? Why not? What was preventing it from being the ending. Sure there could have been many other options for an ending, but that doesn't necessarily preclude or invalidate this one as a working finale.



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I chalk it up to rushed development. If I look at it from that perspective I can willfully fill in the blanks and explain his actions and the inconsistencies within them. The problem there, for me, is that that is not something I have to assume and then do.
Well, to each his own there I suppose. Though basically you just absolved the blanks from being a universal fault with the series. I can dig that as I don't like it when people tell me how something should and shouldn't be based on nothing but their own assumptions. Glad you haven't hit this pitfall once in your post.

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When reading a book and running into a problem with characters I won't wonder to myself if perhaps the author did not have a chance to hammer out the idea and try to fill in the blanks. I'll rightfully call himout on sloppiness, even if I understand the intention.
This is an art form afterall, and sloppy art is sloppy.
Sloppy this sloppy that, bad writing this, it's all a cliche and in the eye of the beholder. And if you understand the author's intention then it means that he succeed in doing what he needed to do. No script is ever perfect, no instance of writing ever without it's flaws, and really if you want to see a lot of flaws in writing then you can just as easily find more of them in the arguments that have presented against this series then in all of Code Geass R2's script.

You know what though, I really don't care anymore to be honest. People have worn this sloppy writing, bad writing whatever hatchet so thin that it's high time they switched over to a new one. It's lost it's edge and ability to cut at the narrative of this show is what I'm trying to say and it's high time people learned to lay it to rest and to move on.

Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2009-02-25 at 01:22.
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Old 2009-02-25, 01:24   Link #5034
Xander
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The large oddity is that between the skip and Episode 25, he acts nothing like himself. He is cold, vindictive, and single-minded. These are qualities that were never before present in Suzaku. Even when he was hunting Zero in R2 he was still human(e). Contradictions, sure, he has them, he always had them, but not that large of a contradiction.
But that means it's not so unexpected for him to keep contradicting himself, so I think it's a matter of time, because Suzaku's had several moments of rage, coldness or single-minded determination before...the difference is he pulled himself back most of the time or the situation changed somehow (see: his search for Zero/Lelouch at the end of season one, the phone call to Nunnally, his attempted use of Refrain on Kallen, etc). Again, Suzaku was convinced about ZR off-screen and his behavior had to change somehow to reflect that, dropping the last bits of his preaching which he had brought up against Charles and Lelouch, even as part of the plan...which is one reason why I don't like the use of time skips in this show, since that part of his development didn't flow too well.

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As for following Schneizel. At the moment that Charles dies, Suzaku has become KoO, Schneizel has support from at the very least Cornelia, the other loyals were expecting him to take power (not Lelouch), and the only real competition in their way was Bismark. He was the only real impediment, and he was one man. While they are in the World of C, Suzaku can kill Lelouch, fulfill his vengeance, and once outside serve Schneizel as his KoO and ultimately retire without any large bloodshed or mountains blowing up.

The reason that Charles' rise was so brutal was because of the bloodshed in competing for the throne. There was no competition in our timeline, everyone expected Schneizel, even his sisters and elder brother. There was no opposition shown to his coming to power outside of Bismark.
Expecting Schneizel to come to power once Charles dies is one thing, but that doesn't mean he would be allowed to outright depose Charles by force without any opposition, even if as an absolute minimum that meant dealing with Bismark and the other Knights. After all, Britannia officially promoted survival of the fittest so theoretically Charles himself would want to put up a fight and not go quietly into the night, if for whatever reason he just couldn't complete the Ragnarok Connection, which would make everything anyone else did irrelevant (since he'd get his magical world of understanding and impose it on humanity).

Killing Lelouch within the World of C would pretty much mean that Charles would win. Killing him afterwards was prevented because Lelouch managed to sell the new plan to Suzaku off-screen. For all we know, Suzaku originally intended to do what you've just said.

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He has no reason to take the actions he took, though. He could have stopped Schneizel without dousing the world in gasoline and lighting it on fire. There was no reason for him to make the world burn. The options of making himself hated are plenty. As I said, he was a scared little boy running away from the reality of the world. That is how the ending presents him, along with emotional wreck.

Not to mention that the entire Damocles plot line was complete and utter bullshit. It was designed for the sake of making Schneizel, who had never been such an extremist, the bad guy. There is no reason for the man to go from "the people have spoken" in China to "I will rule through fear because the people want me to".
Yes, Lelouch's definitely presented as an emotional wreck, which is why even if he could have rationally decided to do something else he didn't do so...but whether you believe he was merely running away or not is a matter of personal philosophy and values. There's no absolute moral standard.

I won't even try to explain Schneizel, since I also didn't quite get what was going on with him there and didn't really like him as a character.

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The picture would leave off at around where France was when its monarchy had collapsed, but in this case, it would have no standing army, and a nation the size of the world broken over its knee. The analogy I was calling forth was the bloodshed and messed caused immediately after. This is global scale, not national scale.

Most of the countries ravaged by WWII took tens of years to recuperate to semi-decent status. These are nations who received, for the most part, some form of support from the world. In our case the world is in this sad state, who are they going to receive guiding help from? The moon?
I could speculate and propose some sort of possible answers to those issues, but the point is we don't really know enough about the new status quo, other than what was previously mentioned.

A pessimistic interpretation is valid, but so is a more positive one, because there's really no way to confirm either of them other than "I expect this to happen based on my interpretation of historical example X, you expect something else based on your interpretation of historical example Y" without enough solid information.

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I could argue that a massacre of innocents without warning and in cold blood, on the scale as what happened in the SAZ, may well actually trump a warmongering tyrant. Those are a dime-a-dozen in history, the SAZ debacle, however, is a bit more rare and cruel.

Honestly, I am going to be blunt, I don't think Okouchi knows how history works in his creation of ZR. Or if he does, he really did not care about CG beyond salvaging the wreck that it was into something semi-feasible. CGs approach to history went from understandable (S1) to a mockery (R2, and especially ZR).
A lot of this is also up to personal interpretation. We are talking about a warmongering tyrant who ruled over the entire world, however briefly, as opposed to a massacre which happened during a single day in Japan (and which the Japanese themselves will remember the most, since they were the victims...but the real world isn't exactly the most caring and altruistic place today, even as genocides happen in Africa and elsewhere, but when certain world powers move and invade, everyone pays more attention, at least initially).

To tell you the truth, I never expected history, of all things, to be accurately represented and dealt with in this show (extremely few series, like Legend of Galactic Heroes, even do an acceptable job). A world divided into three huge powers isn't what I would call a realistic setup, though even that idea was handled better in 00's first season (and I still wouldn't call it too realistic there either, even if some aspects of modern politics were given more attention, but that's for another discussion) than in Code Geass R1. I expected more from the plot, yes, but not in this area.

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My quam is not so much with the obvious, what you stated, but with the lousy cover up. Any semi-decent person would admit "we fucked up", but they had to give us that crock of shit about leaving it purposefully open? Bull. That is simply a full sign of just how much dignity R2 has left. It is bad when something cannot admit its own faults... something it could do before. Though this may fall more on Sunrise than on CG.
I don't know enough about the Japanese entertainment industry to say how common such sincere statements would be when other creators mess up for whatever reason.

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In this case, its a bit too hardpressed to explain it.

So much of R2 was plot convenience and nothing more, that its hard to buy that Lelouch's plot convenience was anything more than what it was. Kallen's capture, plot convenience, Nunally's death, plot convenience, two month time skip, plot conveninence. I can list about one thing per episode, some with more than one.
Without going over that on a case by case basis, which is where the differences lie, I guess you're right overall. There were indeed too many plot conveniences in this show, on a regular basis, but I don't think there's nothing else at all. Something can be too convenient and still work within the story, more or less.
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Old 2009-02-25, 01:25   Link #5035
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My problem with the concept is that idea is banking on a long-lasting threat. The concept is no foreign to stories, in fact it is very prevalent, for the sake of example Lord of the Rings and Sauron, or even Ender's Game, or any story with an invading force and people needing to work together. The problem that arises in Lelouch's plan is that it is a two month threat. There is urgency for unity but there is no time for it. You can see it pretty evidantely at the start of ZR, the people are working together only due to a lack of options (and Gino being with the Order for some utterly contrived reason). Lelouch's victory is relatively swift, leaving the entire cast roughly a few days of bonding time. From which point the world leaders all locked away, likely seperate from one another.

You really never gain a "time of unity". You can say that the world meanwhile united in its hatred but this is only two months. There can not be any long standing bonds formed from this. Its like a guerilla war and coup, no real form beyond "take down the ruling party, take over". Once the leaders are out into the new world and they take over... they've had even less chance to bond.

The logic is understandable, the execution is poor and, ironically, illogical. It simply wasn't something for Code Geass to use as its conclusion, in all honesty.



I chalk it up to rushed development. If I look at it from that perspective I can willfully fill in the blanks and explain his actions and the inconsistencies within them. The problem there, for me, is that that is not something I have to assume and then do.

When reading a book and running into a problem with characters I won't wonder to myself if perhaps the author did not have a chance to hammer out the idea and try to fill in the blanks. I'll rightfully call himout on sloppiness, even if I understand the intention.

This is an art form afterall, and sloppy art is sloppy.
When the ending first came out I compared it to the ending of My Little Ponies, the ending is happy because the writers want it to be happy.

Nina is no longer racist even though nothing happened that could have caused that big of a change. I mean the millions of people who died due to Fleija where nearly all Britannians. If she took out all of Tokyo and the death toll included huge portions of Japanese than I could understand but the Japanese where spared, making her complete change in personality umbelivab;le.

The fact that the Japanese getting along with Britannia is also ridiculous it works because the writers says it works. Britannia, Japanese and Europeans no longer hate each other because Lelouch was a douchebag for two whole months.

Then again that's a problem that cropped up in the middle of R2 as well. Compare Guilford's personality with Suzaku in R2 to his personality in the first season. Cornelia also suffers from off screen character development.

While I do agree that this is rushed, and that it probably wouldn't have happened if R2 was given the same timeslot it still happened, and rushed writing is still bad writing.

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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Actually your post is poorly written because you didn't pay attention to the episode and because you assume that Britannia always massacres people at the drop of a hat. If only everything were so simple as an effect always bringing about the same resolution eh? Seriously that implication is so poorly thought out that I don't even know why I am replying, but here goes anyway:

The deal had been that Zero would be exiled in exchange for a pardon of all Black Knight members and they followed through on it because they didn't need a million civilians coming down on them or the world seeing them massacring all of these people on live television. Like WTF are you even talking about when you say that Britannia always massacres people. You know what would have been stupid writing? If Britannia had followed through on massacring all of those people in broad daylight. It would have been a massive public relations disaster for them that they simply couldn't afford if they hoped to maintain order in Japan. Plus as Rohmeyer pointed out, that was a huge workforce that they did not want to lose if it could be avoided. Pull the trigger and wipe out all of the people who could work for the empire, or let them go and hopefully get them back later once the rebellion is all over. The decision seems obvious to me.

You need to think before throwing out the bad writing cliche next time. Hold that one in boy, because it just ain't flyin'.
Britannia's public relations outside of Britannia is already complete crap. I mean they do nothing but invade other countries destroy a good portion of them and rule over the survivors with an iron fist.

Who cares if they killed an extra one million Japanese when they already did that in the first invasion. I mean where do you think they got the land for the Britannia portion of Tokyo? Just moved the millions of displaced Japanese to another city?

As for Taniguchi and Okouchi making an apology, the only time I have ever seen anyone apologize for something they made was if it was a complete peice of crap that everyone hated, or an old work.

Since R2 was popular like GSD I don't expect an apology nor do I think one should be given. If it sells than theirs nothing to aplogize for.

Last edited by Charred Knight; 2009-02-25 at 01:35.
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Old 2009-02-25, 01:43   Link #5036
Xander
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When the ending first came out I compared it to the ending of My Little Ponies, the ending is happy because the writers want it to be happy.
I can't really agree with the comparison, because in all honesty you could try to use a less inherently degrading one to make your points more reasonable and sound less like transparent insults (especially since many other shows, including lots of anime, could also be accused of the same, not just stuff on the level of your example), but at least you made me laugh, if all too briefly.

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Nina is no longer racist even though nothing happened that could have caused that big of a change. I mean the millions of people who died due to Fleija where nearly all Britannians. If she took out all of Tokyo and the death toll included huge portions of Japanese than I could understand but the Japanese where spared, making her complete change in personality umbelivab;le.
Oh c'mon, now this is just...even if that were the case, the point is her blind fear / hatred only lead her to become involved in mass murder. I think that realization is enough for her to at least take a step back and think she did something wrong, even if she was certainly dumb about it in the first place. Other than that, all we have is the fact she's hanging around with her old Ashford friends. For all we know, she still feels some remaining fear, even if she no longer has the need for revenge that drove her to making weapons of mass destruction. She also knows that Zero, who killed her beloved Euphemia, wasn't actually Japanese, and this person is now dead.

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The fact that the Japanese getting along with Britannia is also ridiculous it works because the writers says it works. Britannia, Japanese and Europeans no longer hate each other because Lelouch was a douchebag for two whole months.
The Europeans never really demonstrated much "hatred", more like rivalry, and we only saw the leaders of Britannia and of Japan getting along. This doesn't necessarily mean everyone else is 100% convinced, though you could interpret it either way if you insist.

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Then again that's a problem that cropped up in the middle of R2 as well. Compare Guilford's personality with Suzaku in R2 to his personality in the first season. Cornelia also suffers from off screen character development.
At least you do have a point there, mainly in the case of Cornelia. Guilford...I'd have to think about it.
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Old 2009-02-25, 01:46   Link #5037
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When the ending first came out I compared it to the ending of My Little Ponies, the ending is happy because the writers want it to be happy.
And this is a problem how. It's the writers decision to decide how the show ends not yours.

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Nina is no longer racist even though nothing happened that could have caused that big of a change. I mean the millions of people who died due to Fleija where nearly all Britannians. If she took out all of Tokyo and the death toll included huge portions of Japanese than I could understand but the Japanese where spared, making her complete change in personality umbelivab;le.
Oh my god did Nina get character development and learn the error of her ways through a tragic incident in realizing that she was the monster and not the Japanese. I guess this instance of character growth is just more of that "bad writing" to you. Also looks at the death list again from the following episode, there are many Japanese names on that list.

This is where it again pays to pay some attention to what you are watching. Seriously just do this and stop making poorly written arguments that make no sense.

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The fact that the Japanese getting along with Britannia is also ridiculous it works because the writers says it works. Britannia, Japanese and Europeans no longer hate each other because Lelouch was a douchebag for two whole months.
Sigh.......yes it does, it in fact does work because the writers say it works, because there is no contradiction to be had in all of this. Show me the part that shows that they cannot possibly ever be able to work together and then we'll talk. In the process you might want to look at the many instances of the series that happen to show Japanese and Britannian characters working together just fine. To name a few we have Diethard working with the Black Knights, Sayoko getting along with Nunally, Euphemia hitting it off with Suzaku, the elitist Knight of Rounds welcoming Suzaku into their ranks, Lelouch and Suzaku being best friends, and the Japanese learning to trust Nunally as a governor general.

So yeah, stop making horrible arguments that fall apart in less then a paragraphs counterpoint please. Just stop.....it's such as waste.

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Then again that's a problem that cropped up in the middle of R2 as well. Compare Guilford's personality with Suzaku in R2 to his personality in the first season. Cornelia also suffers from off screen character development.
WTF are you even talking about now?

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While I do agree that this is rushed, and that it probably wouldn't have happened if R2 was given the same timeslot it still happened, and rushed writing is still bad writing.
You're right about one thing finally something has been rushed here, but it's not Code Geass R2. I love how you can sit there so straight faced after putting up such a pitiful argument and just randomly shooting out as much random accusations as possible and expect it to work. Then again I see this a lot lately with people trying to criticize shows, that thing where they almost seemingly deliberately use the same fallacies they are trying to denounce a show for having, so I can't say that I am surprised in the least that you would do it.


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Britannia's public relations outside of Britannia is already complete crap. I mean they do nothing but invade other countries destroy a good portion of them and rule over the survivors with an iron fist.
YES! FINALLY YOU HIT ON SOMETHING EVEN IF BY ACCIDENT! PRAISE THE LORD IT'S A MIRACLE, CHARRED KNIGHT FOUND A WAY TO MAKE SENSE!

Yes, Britannia does not want those workers dead, they want them alive and they want them under there control, but they were not in a position to do that there. How do you stop a group of 1 million people from comitting an exodus without having to kill most or all of them to accomplish it? You don't, you let them go and try to round them up later when the conflict is resolved, much like the pharaoh in the Bible tried to round up the Israelites after pretending to let them go on an exodus from Egypt.

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Who cares if they killed an extra one million Japanese when they already did that in the first invasion. I mean where do you think they got the land for the Britannia portion of Tokyo? Just moved the millions of displaced Japanese to another city?
Simple answer? They care. Funny how that works, that the Britannian characters in a Japanese anime come across as less callous and cold hearted then you do. I'll admit it, I'd be terrified to have you as my elected official now if I were to tak part in a union that is about to go on an indefinite strike.
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Old 2009-02-25, 02:15   Link #5038
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I can't really agree with the comparison, because in all honesty you could try to use a less inherently degrading one to make your points more reasonable and sound less like transparent insults (especially since many other shows, including lots of anime, could also be accused of the same, not just stuff on the level of your example), but at least you made me laugh, if all too briefly.



Oh c'mon, now this is just...even if that were the case, the point is her blind fear / hatred only lead her to become involved in mass murder. I think that realization is enough for her to at least take a step back and think she did something wrong, even if she was certainly dumb about it in the first place. Other than that, all we have is the fact she's hanging around with her old Ashford friends. For all we know, she still feels some remaining fear, even if she no longer has the need for revenge that drove her to making weapons of mass destruction. She also knows that Zero, who killed her beloved Euphemia, wasn't actually Japanese, and this person is now dead.



The Europeans never really demonstrated much "hatred", more like rivalry, and we only saw the leaders of Britannia and of Japan getting along. This doesn't necessarily mean everyone else is 100% convinced, though you could interpret it either way if you insist.


At least you do have a point there, mainly in the case of Cornelia. Guilford...I'd have to think about it.
Obviously My Little ponies is an exaggeration Lelouch didn't use a magic rainbow to save the world and turn all the dragons back into butterflies and turn back the monster back into a Pricne. The point is that it works because the Writers says it works. At no point in time are we ever shown the common people of Britannia i.e the common soldier to be anything other than racist assholes,. its only in Ashford, some of the nobility, some of the army, and the KoR do we see decent Brtiannians.


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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
And this is a problem how. It's the writers decision to decide how the show ends not yours.



Oh my god did Nina get character development and learn the error of her ways through a tragic incident in realizing that she was the monster and not the Japanese. I guess this instance of character growth is just more of that "bad writing" to you. Also looks at the death list again from the following episode, there are many Japanese names on that list.

This is where it again pays to pay some attention to what you are watching. Seriously just do this and stop making poorly written arguments that make no sense.



Sigh.......yes it does, it in fact does work because the writers say it works, because there is no contradiction to be had in all of this. Show me the part that shows that they cannot possibly ever be able to work together and then we'll talk. In the process you might want to look at the many instances of the series that happen to show Japanese and Britannian characters working together just fine. To name a few we have Diethard working with the Black Knights, Sayoko getting along with Nunally, Euphemia hitting it off with Suzaku, the elitist Knight of Rounds welcoming Suzaku into their ranks, Lelouch and Suzaku being best friends, and the Japanese learning to trust Nunally as a governor general.

So yeah, stop making horrible arguments that fall apart in less then a paragraphs counterpoint please. Just stop.....it's such as waste.



WTF are you even talking about now?



You're right about one thing finally something has been rushed here, but it's not Code Geass R2. I love how you can sit there so straight faced after putting up such a pitiful argument and just randomly shooting out as much random accusations as possible and expect it to work. Then again I see this a lot lately with people trying to criticize shows, that thing where they almost seemingly deliberately use the same fallacies they are trying to denounce a show for having, so I can't say that I am surprised in the least that you would do it.




YES! FINALLY YOU HIT ON SOMETHING EVEN IF BY ACCIDENT! PRAISE THE LORD IT'S A MIRACLE, CHARRED KNIGHT FOUND A WAY TO MAKE SENSE!

Yes, Britannia does not want those workers dead, they want them alive and they want them under there control, but they were not in a position to do that there. How do you stop a group of 1 million people from comitting an exodus without having to kill most or all of them to accomplish it? You don't, you let them go and try to round them up later when the conflict is resolved, much like the pharaoh in the Bible tried to round up the Israelites after pretending to let them go on an exodus from Egypt.



Simple answer? They care. Funny how that works, that the Britannian characters in a Japanese anime come across as less callous and cold hearted then you do. I'll admit it, I'd be terrified to have you as my elected official now if I were to tak part in a union that is about to go on an indefinite strike.
Diethard worked horribly with the other Black Knights, they pretty much disagreed on everything. The problem isn't that the Japanese working with Britannia, the problem is that Britannia is an icredibly racist nation, their is no reason I could see to change that.

KoR elitist? Outside of the Ashford Academy an d Euphemia the KoR are the nicest Britannians in the entire series. Except for Bradley whose nuts, all of the KoR are presented as outstandimg human beings.

Britannia is basically an inversion of Amestris from Fullmetal Alchemist. With Amestris the entire army, and people are pretty nice, and the army is heroic and always trying to help people, its the Central Generals who are the problem. With Britannia except for a few bad Generals the leadership of the Army is pretty nice, its just that the majority of the Army is made up of racist bastards who care nothing about killing innocent people.

As for me being an elected official the first step I would take in terms of unions is bringing back the Pinkerton Detective Agency to fight the unions.
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Old 2009-02-25, 02:31   Link #5039
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Diethard worked horribly with the other Black Knights, they pretty much disagreed on everything. The problem isn't that the Japanese working with Britannia, the problem is that Britannia is an icredibly racist nation, their is no reason I could see to change that.
Are they inherently racist or is it just a system of beliefs and values that have been ingrained upon them and which can be changed. Maybe you can't see them changing policies under new leadership and new ideals (even though this happens all the time in real world), but then again you seem to have strange ideas of how character development works so I can't see how that matters to much.....oh that and you not being able to see them change doesn't make it impossible. If I had covered my eyes during the Novemeber election night and assumed that Barack Obama could never get elected because America would be too prejudiced against black people, does that mean that it wouldn't have happened?

Oh and at no point was it ever implicated that every single Britannian was on board with this change in policy, just that times are themselves are changing and the old prejudices are dying out and giving way to a greater spirit of cooperation.

And I've noticed that your points are getting shorter so I think I am perhaps starting to get through to you here.....maybe. You see, for every point you can raise there are about 1000 counterpoints I could raise that throws it into chaos. These points of yours are not the sort that are made to stand on anything other then your own word, hence they are week in nature.

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KoR elitist? Outside of the Ashford Academy an d Euphemia the KoR are the nicest Britannians in the entire series. Except for Bradley whose nuts, all of the KoR are presented as outstandimg human beings.
They are still bound by the mores of the Britannian system, which is quite exclusive in it's very nature. And my point was that they were very cooperative in welcoming Suzaku on board and recognizing his merits as a fighter over his race rather than giving into the system that would sooner have them reject him as inferior so way to pick up on what I was trying to say.

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Britannia is basically an inversion of Amestris from Fullmetal Alchemist. With Amestris the entire army, and people are pretty nice, and the army is heroic and always trying to help people, its the Central Generals who are the problem. With Britannia except for a few bad Generals the leadership of the Army is pretty nice, its just that the majority of the Army is made up of racist bastards who care nothing about killing innocent people.
This is just so convoluted a point (and not to mention one yet again based solely on assumption without proof like every other argument you make that I really don't even know how to begin addressing it.) I'm not even sure what you are trying to argue anymore and I'm not sure you do either come to think of it. You're just awful at this whole debating thing, I'm sorry, but I can't find a nicer way to put it. Why is it that everyone else seems more than capable of gathering evidence from the show itself instead of the depths of their own mind to make a point but you? The world wonders......yet if you could do this we might actually start to get somewhere again with this thread.

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As for me being an elected official the first step I would take in terms of unions is bringing back the Pinkerton Detective Agency to fight the unions.
And nobody cares........
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Old 2009-02-25, 02:42   Link #5040
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post

Are they inherently racist or is it just a system of beliefs and values that have been ingrained upon them and which can be changed. Maybe you can't see them changing policies under new leadership and new ideals (even though this happens all the time in real world), but then again you seem to have strange ideas of how character development works so I can't see how that matters to much.....oh that and you not being able to see them change doesn't make it impossible. If I had covered my eyes during the Novemeber election night and assumed that Barack Obama could never get elected because America would be too prejudiced against black people, does that mean that it wouldn't have happened?

Oh and at no point was it ever implicated that every single Britannian was on board with this change in policy, just that times are themselves are changing and the old prejudices are dying out and giving way to a greater spirit of cooperation.

And I've noticed that your points are getting shorter so I think I am perhaps starting to get through to you here.....maybe. You see, for every point you can raise there are about 1000 counterpoints I could raise that throws it into chaos. These points of yours are not the sort that are made to stand on anything other then your own word, hence they are week in nature.

They are still bound by the tenants of the Britannian system, which is quite exclusive in it's very nature. And my point was that they were very cooperative in welcoming Suzaku on board and recognizing his merits as a fighter over his race rather than giving into the system that would sooner have them reject him as inferior so way to pick up on what I was trying to say.

This is just so convoluted a point and based solely on assumption without proof like every other argument you make that I really don't even know how to begin addressing it. I'm not even sure what you are trying to argue anymore and I'm not sure you do either come to think of it. You're just awful at this, I'm sorry, but I can't find a nicer way to put it.

And nobody cares........

America changed due to the civil rights movement and especially brilliant people like Martin Luther king Jr and through better understanding of how to look at race.

Charles policies are heavily applauded, and generally protrayed as well liked, and Charles position is secured. As for being a change in policy, the fact that Britannia is portrayed as always being like this makes me think that its more than just Charles whose at fault. It's not like you can change an entire way of life and belief system easily.

Maybe I am cynical but I just can't see how anyone can really think that Britannia can easily change without some kind of pressure from the outside like what happened after World War II.

I do admit defeat in some portions but you have also ignored some of my points (Schneizel's defeat being the main one)
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