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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 789 63.68%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 163 13.16%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 95 7.67%
7 out of 10 : Good 67 5.41%
6 out of 10 : Average 17 1.37%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 18 1.45%
4 out of 10 : Poor 7 0.56%
3 out of 10 : Bad 7 0.56%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 4 0.32%
1 out of 10 : Painful 72 5.81%
Voters: 1239. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-04-12, 22:50   Link #5381
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
Just out of curiousity.... Did Schneizel and Cornelia actually offer concrete and undeniable proof that Zero had super mystical magic powers at all? I only recall them saying Zero had powers and then pulled up a file on people they think he has Geassed.
Nope. They said it, Ohgi vouched for them, and no one dared call them on it. Well, Tamaki did, and one little recording was enough to shut him up.
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Old 2009-04-12, 22:59   Link #5382
demon_god04
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That is what I did not get about the recording, ignoring the fact that it could have been synthesized or something, how did they know what Zero's real voice sounded like? He talked through a voice filter and his tone was more submissive and softer when he was talking to Suzaku.
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Old 2009-04-12, 23:15   Link #5383
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
That is what I did not get about the recording, ignoring the fact that it could have been synthesized or something, how did they know what Zero's real voice sounded like? He talked through a voice filter and his tone was more submissive and softer when he was talking to Suzaku.
The way I see it, they rebelled because in the end, they don't trust Zero. And that's to be expected. What mystified me was why would they trust a different Britannian prince instead?

My explanation, was the director making the decision to point out that the Japanese people are no saints themselves. This was a major screw-up moment for the Resistance, but it's only fair because Britannians made plenty of mistakes too.
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Old 2009-04-12, 23:16   Link #5384
azul120
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Ohgi is a traitor, because he took everything on the word of the woman he loved without a shred of proof. Worse still, he lies about it, gets caught, and still doesn't get punished. He should have been relieved of duty or at least demoted.
When did Ohgi get caught?

Heck, he should have been demoted for his mutiny in R2 15.

Good point there about the conversation, demon_god04.
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Old 2009-04-12, 23:22   Link #5385
morbosfist
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When did Ohgi get caught?

Heck, he should have been demoted for his mutiny in R2 15.

Good point there about the conversation, demon_god04.
Diethard kept that on the down-low, so no one found out. As for when he got caught, it was in Turn 20. Ohgi and co betray Zero for Japan and do a piss-poor job delivering on their end of the bargain, so Diethard suggests just declaring the man dead and Ohgi runs with it. Half an episode later Lelouch goes all out and both Xingke and Kaguya instantly realize that Ohgi's story has more holes in it than swiss chess. He decides to tell them, and we don't even get so much as a word out of either of them. I would have at least expected Xingke, who is not as attached to Japan as they are, to blow a damn gasket for their completely inappropriate decision to make a deal with the enemy without consulting him or the Supreme Council Chairwoman first.

The betrayal irks me in just so many ways, because there are dozens of things they do wrong and we never see anything done about it. If anything, Xingke's later attitude suggests an "oh, so that's how it is, then we're cool" reaction.
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Old 2009-04-12, 23:34   Link #5386
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The one thing that made absolutely no sense was the recording, I'll agree with that. Though that's more an "*ahem* directors, wtf are you thinking" moment than anything else.

They gave Zero a lot of chances. They took him back after he abandoned them for an entire year (he was amnesiac, but they didn't know that). Ougi was already beginning to suspect Zero way back in ep 14 season one, if you'll remember --- he suspected that Zero had killed the JLF --- but he kept giving the guy chances. He kept saying to himself, "Alright I'll believe in him, he'll help us reach our goals, even if I'm not sure I trust him..."

Then he finds out Zero is a member of the royal family and that changes everything. Suddenly it looks like Zero's just in it for his own gain (which, hey, let's be honest, he was --- initially), and he's been playing them as fools. Remember, they were told nothing about the circumstances of Lelouch (Tohdoh should have known, actually, though he probably forgot it in the heat of the moment) --- just that he was a Britannian prince who was probably trying to get the throne for himself, using the Japanese as his pawns.

I think they believed what they were told mostly because it made a lot of sense with all the other inconsistencies. Oh, and I thought the files came from Villetta, but I could be remembering that wrong. Ougi believed Villetta partly because he was in love with her and the two of them were being completely honest with one another (which is... not that smart, but understandable) and partly because it fit with everything else he'd seen from Zero. Why else would Jeremiah have let Suzaku go way back in ep 4 season 1? Why else would Zero have been so upset about Nunally and not cared about any of the Japanese in the aftermath of FLEIJA? And of course, Euphie's massacre, which was completely bizarre and out of line with everything else she'd done previously --- everything makes so much more sense if they accept that Zero has a form of hypnotism.

The files of evidence and Villetta's witness-evidence were all that was needed to clinch it.

And, like I said, Ougi did not want to betray his comrade, despite everything they had been told. Schneizel and Cornelia wanted the Black Knights to just hand Zero over, but Ougi bargained it so that they would at least have the freedom of Japan --- which wasn't exactly all that the Black Knights wanted, but it was their initial goal.

So yeah, Ougi and the others aren't saints, but I think they had good reason to do what they did. Perhaps it wasn't the brightest response, but it wasn't completely uncalled for IMO.
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Old 2009-04-12, 23:34   Link #5387
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Not to mention that Xingke had long known Schneizel as one of their worst rivals. I really wished he tore Oghi a new one on account of that alone.

ETA: Again though, if they were convinced to evict Zero over suspecting that he wanted the Britannian throne to himself, that would have been one thing, but that they sided with Schneizel there just made it hypocritical. Right up there with Suzaku handing over Lelouch to the Emperor in between the two seasons.
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Old 2009-04-13, 00:03   Link #5388
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I actually only only jumped on the Ohgi and Viletta hate boat post series when I went back and thought over everything.

Ohgi, though a "nice guy" to his friends, was still a terrorist, and even Mr. Rogers couldn't play that off. You have to hate something pretty bad to be willing to blow people up, steal what you think is poison gas, and then use a group of civilians to hide amongst, knowing full well the guys chasing you won't hesitate to shoot through the civilians to hit you. Ohgi was already just as bad as anything Zero would ever do, the only difference was scale.

The simple act of keeping Viletta a secret was treason. He found a woman who was injured and muttered something that implied she knew who Zero was, or at least knew him. For all Ohgi knew, Viletta was a spy for Zero who needed to get critical information to him ASAP, yet he kept her at his place, never telling Zero about it. It should have been reasonable to think that if she wasn't on Zero's side, and her memory came back while he was out that she would bolt and tell the authorities what Zero looked like...Oh wait...she did (well she shot him first).

Had he done the right thing and forked her over to Zero, Lelouch could have been all "Hey thanks for catching this spy who nearly killed me Ohgi, good work!" killed or imprisoned Viletta, and possibly learned about Shirley earlier, in time to save her from Mao, and at least let Shirley know that she didn't kill someone.

For Viletta, ignoring the racism thing, since it was pretty much national policy, the woman approached a greiving child and got her to spy on the boy she liked, because he may have helped the guys who killed her father. Viletta didn't go to her comrades or supperiors to investigate this, she used Shirley as a decoy in case Lelouch really could alter minds, because she wanted the glory for herself. She wanted to do it herself, more than see it get done. Then, when they both see that Lelouch is Zero, Viletta is complimenting herself over her inevitable promotion (not the whole stopping a dangerous terrorist bit), but when Shirley seems confused Viletta lunges at her, only to get shot. Perhaps Viletta would have restrained her and calmed her down, perhaps she would have grabbed the gun, shot her, and pinned it as one more feather in Zero's...um...mask, it could go either way, but you can guess my bias...

When her amnesia went away Viletta went straight for Ohgi and tried to kill him. This caused chaos in the Black Knights command center, and pulled the guards outside the student council away, which in turn let them try to escape, leaving Nunally to be grabbed by V.V., which made Zero abandon his army.

Though unintentional, Ohgi's little act of treason on the docks set in motion the ultimate failure of the Black Rebellion.

For R2 he was contacted by Viletta sometime during Jeremiah's attack, but we don't know if she told him everything then, or anything at all aside from possibly arranging a meeting to kill him, and he never told anyone about this. He never even tried to go to Zero about any of this.

Viletta had to have told him at least of the limits on Lelouch's Geass, namely the single use per person, and eye-contact is necessary bit, hence the knightmares in the hangar. Yet Ohgi was willing to use Kallen as bait to get Zero down there, and to shoot her. To shoot his dead best friend's little sister, who Zero just busted out of jail, when they could have had the knightmares just grab her and Lelouch, cover his head (or wear their own damn visors) and then at least have a somewhat civil interogation where Lelouch doesn't have to pull the admittedly epic "Live on" scene with Kallen.

With the presence of the Geass ruins in Japan, Schneizel's little negotiation would NOT have worked if the writers hadn't forced the whole everything-Lelouch-has EVER-done-will-bite-him-in-the-ass-at-once-bit. When Schneizel attempted to call up the Emperor to say "We have peace again, I gave them Japan." Charles would just say "Well whip out your little FLEIJA toy and take it back now or I disinherit you." The Black Knights would have at least gotten a bit of poetic justice in being once again shown how useless they were without Zero, and hopefully some of that frustration would fall on the guy who was literally in bed with a Britannian Purist.

Last edited by Betteroffer; 2009-04-13 at 03:25.
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Old 2009-04-13, 00:09   Link #5389
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Well put. Though I think V. V. would have still found another way to abduct Nunnally.
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Old 2009-04-13, 00:15   Link #5390
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow View Post
They gave Zero a lot of chances. They took him back after he abandoned them for an entire year (he was amnesiac, but they didn't know that). Ougi was already beginning to suspect Zero way back in ep 14 season one, if you'll remember --- he suspected that Zero had killed the JLF --- but he kept giving the guy chances. He kept saying to himself, "Alright I'll believe in him, he'll help us reach our goals, even if I'm not sure I trust him..."
They gave him chances because the man gets results that benefit their cause, and he had just saved their ungrateful asses from the gallows (not quite so literally, but still). Then all of a sudden they get a little bit of circumstantial evidence and that goes out the window. Ohgi's little speech afterward makes it all the more hypocritical. "We don't need Zero anymore." Seriously, what war was this guy fighting to think he was the least bit competent?

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Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow View Post
Then he finds out Zero is a member of the royal family and that changes everything. Suddenly it looks like Zero's just in it for his own gain (which, hey, let's be honest, he was --- initially), and he's been playing them as fools. Remember, they were told nothing about the circumstances of Lelouch (Tohdoh should have known, actually, though he probably forgot it in the heat of the moment) --- just that he was a Britannian prince who was probably trying to get the throne for himself, using the Japanese as his pawns.
And this would be justified, if they had a shred of proof. They didn't.

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I think they believed what they were told mostly because it made a lot of sense with all the other inconsistencies. Oh, and I thought the files came from Villetta, but I could be remembering that wrong. Ougi believed Villetta partly because he was in love with her and the two of them were being completely honest with one another (which is... not that smart, but understandable) and partly because it fit with everything else he'd seen from Zero. Why else would Jeremiah have let Suzaku go way back in ep 4 season 1? Why else would Zero have been so upset about Nunally and not cared about any of the Japanese in the aftermath of FLEIJA? And of course, Euphie's massacre, which was completely bizarre and out of line with everything else she'd done previously --- everything makes so much more sense if they accept that Zero has a form of hypnotism.
Schenizel doled out the files. Villetta had nothing but her word and Ohgi bought it. Almost all of those instances have perfectly logical explanations that don't need hypnotism. Jeremiah, bribery. Euphy, trickster (she didn't make too many public appearances, mind you, and naming an Eleven knight hardly speaks volumes). Nunnally is the only soft spot. Even if it makes sense, it's still not that logical to think the man has magic powers without proof.

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The files of evidence and Villetta's witness-evidence were all that was needed to clinch it.
Except they weren't evidence, just guesswork, and Villetta only told Ohgi. The whole group was pretty much, "ooo, pretty pictures."

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And, like I said, Ougi did not want to betray his comrade, despite everything they had been told. Schneizel and Cornelia wanted the Black Knights to just hand Zero over, but Ougi bargained it so that they would at least have the freedom of Japan --- which wasn't exactly all that the Black Knights wanted, but it was their initial goal.
If Ohgi didn't want to betray his comrade, he wouldn't have been won over by Villetta before even entering the room. He milked a concession out of Schenizel so he'd have something to show for his treachery. If Schenizel had called that bluff, he would have still betrayed Zero. As for wanting Japan, that's all the core Black Knights wanted, UFN be damned. Tohdoh says it himself in Turns 8 and 17: if Zero doesn't have Japan's interests in mind, they'd ditch him. They were selfish people, and Ohgi took the chance when he got it.

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So yeah, Ougi and the others aren't saints, but I think they had good reason to do what they did. Perhaps it wasn't the brightest response, but it wasn't completely uncalled for IMO.
It may not have been completely uncalled for, but executing Zero on the spot, and Kallen along with him, most certainly wasn't. They didn't even give him a chance to defend himself, and damn near shot Kallen just for asking them to give him that courtesy. If they had confronted him rationally, then it might be called for. Knightmare firing squad and declaring him guilty without letting him defend himself is not.
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Old 2009-04-13, 00:33   Link #5391
snowdevil_crow
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... mah, this is why I suck at arguments, I stop caring too soon. ><

Basically, yeah, good points all around.

I still don't think Ougi (or Villetta) were devils incarnate though. Everyone in this anime does some pretty bad things, and to rag especially on those two just because they had a happy ending doesn't make sense to me. :/
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Old 2009-04-13, 00:49   Link #5392
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If anything, it's just a whole lot of frustration given that they both get a sweet aftermath, compared to the likes of Lelouch and Suzaku. Especially given Oghi becomes prime minister, which was him falling up.
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Old 2009-04-13, 00:56   Link #5393
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Yeah, that didn't make a lot of sense. Ougi himself said he wasn't a good leader... though was it ever actually confirmed that he was Prime Minister? I don't remember seeing it in any episodes.
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Old 2009-04-13, 01:03   Link #5394
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Yeah, that didn't make a lot of sense. Ougi himself said he wasn't a good leader... though was it ever actually confirmed that he was Prime Minister? I don't remember seeing it in any episodes.
That card with all the signatures in Tamaki's bar confirms it, and why else would he be meeting with Nunnally? He probably got rushed into office on popularity.
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Old 2009-04-13, 01:55   Link #5395
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Well, we don't have to go that much far to see examples. In our history, there's a lot of war heroes that make it into high seats, competent or not.

But i have to admit it, without Ohgi and Tohdou story, they would never brought Schneizel talk. The tape is not that bad of idea, because they already believe in Schneizel when he shows the tape. Hell, if Lelouch speaked "Japanese morons! I OWN YOU ALL!" they probably gonna buy Schneizel's story aniway.
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Old 2009-04-13, 06:25   Link #5396
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However the betrayal was a scene written too much fast and immature, in my opinion was better a event like:

After schneizel lullaby:
Black knights obliged Lelouch to drop away his mask, then put him under arrest for to understand better ALL THE STORY before to give lelouch to schneizel.
Kallen is making everything to explain the situation but nobody listen her, in the meantime a murderer sent by (cornelia, schneizel, etc...) try to kill lelouch but rolo take part and save and free him ignoring lelouch's contestations.
Then all the escape show and the black knight think..."he run away, then...was he really guilty?"
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Old 2009-04-14, 03:12   Link #5397
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I don't think they would want to know the story from Lelouch's point of view, they pretty much brought Schneizel's story so well, thanks to Ohgi and Tohdou, that all they want now is to free Japan and fuck Zero in the ass, the guy who used them and probably geassed them. Besides, if they gave a chance for him to explain, Lelouch would probably make his show again, tell them they are idiots and stuff, since he wasn't giving a damn for nothing after Nunnally's "death".
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Old 2009-04-14, 03:26   Link #5398
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I don't think they would want to know the story from Lelouch's point of view, they pretty much brought Schneizel's story so well, thanks to Ohgi and Tohdou, that all they want now is to free Japan and fuck Zero in the ass, the guy who used them and probably geassed them. Besides, if they gave a chance for him to explain, Lelouch would probably make his show again, tell them they are idiots and stuff, since he wasn't giving a damn for nothing after Nunnally's "death".
That very idea makes what they did all the more wrong. If they had given Lelouch a chance to explain rather than become complete retards and take everything Schenizel said on what is essentially good faith, he probably could have shown them in two minutes just how stupid they were acting.
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Old 2009-04-14, 09:27   Link #5399
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Not to mention that buying into what Schneizel told them makes them full of it. Really, what is it that makes Schneizel less deceptive?
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Old 2009-04-14, 09:46   Link #5400
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In fact, to evade all that absurd chaos about political situation after Lelouch death, I used a simple solution.

Lelouch is "dead", schneizel is dead, Nina is "dead".

Ougi never becomed first minister, but just a normal citizen with a normal family, he wanted it after all.

Cornelia reject her title etc...she becomed just a policy mediator for her sister.

Suzaku is just a army officer and Nunnally personal bodyguard.

Nunnally, I kept her just with the "hostage" rule, then, she never used freya, and she had a clean consciences and criminal record, good to become the 100 empress.

This is off-topic, is just my idea about the fact a person can't to have a political rule if he/she has the dirty consciences, and the survived people with a big fault, for the world, they're dead in every case.
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