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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 790 63.71%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 163 13.15%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 95 7.66%
7 out of 10 : Good 67 5.40%
6 out of 10 : Average 17 1.37%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 18 1.45%
4 out of 10 : Poor 7 0.56%
3 out of 10 : Bad 7 0.56%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 4 0.32%
1 out of 10 : Painful 72 5.81%
Voters: 1240. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-04-14, 10:15   Link #5401
Levy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Not to mention that buying into what Schneizel told them makes them full of it. Really, what is it that makes Schneizel less deceptive?
several things like, in order of importance:
- They got on their own cross-evidences for what Schneizel told them;
- Schneizel hasn't already shown the Damocles fortress yet;
- He didn't have magicall powers to help him in bending people's will;,
- Scheneizel acted like a reasonable and diplomatic person untill the last battle, he offered them a truce when they were at disadvantage;
- He just seems interested in stopping the conflict;
- He never betrayed them, since he's the enemy to begin with (aka, no sense of betrayal toward him);

And just for the record, since it seems is not that clear, the BK never leave the command to Schneizel untill in the middle of last battle, in ep.23, when Xingke left him the command in change of the promise of not firing the FREJA on the UNF hostages.
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Old 2009-04-14, 11:15   Link #5402
azul120
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Cross-evidences that included stuff that may have very well been forged/manipulated/etc.

As for the Schneizel technically never betraying him since he was an enemy, there's an old saying: keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. Clearly the Black Knights didn't heed that.
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Old 2009-04-14, 11:26   Link #5403
Levy
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Indeed, not all the cross-evidences Schneizel provided were real, but they fitted the story amazingly well, and it made more sense to believe them that to reject them.

Take the JLF ship explosion: Lelouch did it with a bomb, but both Tohdoh and Ohgi suspected that there was something behind the incident and the way Zero dealt with it that was not clear from back there. On Schneizel's files, it appears that general Katase has been geassed into blowing up the ship, so both Ohgi and Tohdoh coupled their suspicions with the evidences that are provided to them and believed it was the piece they've been missing so far. It was a rather different piece, but it fitted the same the picture they got on their own so far - (and I'm not saying it's all fair and awesuuum, I say that it's not so illogicall as everybody here seems to think it is. )

the old saying, I'm kinda clueless about how it's supposed to fit our story, but whatever, my point was more, none helds nothing personal against Schneizel and everybody has something personal against Lelouch, because the latter betrayied their trust, while the first never had it to begin with.
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Old 2009-04-14, 12:59   Link #5404
Kid Ying
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Levy, you're my idol.

Of course the evidences could've been just a fake, but everyone there already has suspicions about Zero, who freaked out minutes ago about the death of a girl that was supossed to be his enemy. I mean, if you think in a rational way, it was a big mistake to begin with, but everyone is tired from the battle, Ohgi and Tohdou, 2 of the leaders, already think that Zero has some dirty secrets... So, i don't think they care that much about being rational.

It was like a bottle overflowing with water, Schneizel put a couple of drops and it's over. Even without Schneizel, Ohgi could've tried to make a coupe because of Villeta's testimonial, of course no one would give a damn, hehe.
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Old 2009-04-14, 12:59   Link #5405
azul120
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What I meant by "keeping your friends close and your enemies closer" is that your enemies are more often than not more likely to use you, and Schneizel already had quite the reputation for that.

ETA: And that they held nothing personal against Schneizel by comparison only lampshades the utter bereft of objectivity on the BKs part. And regarding keeping secrets, Oghi should have taken a good, long look in the mirror.
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Old 2009-04-14, 13:10   Link #5406
morbosfist
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Of all the the BK, Tohdoh was the only one who actually had decent evidence of Lelouch's duplicity in the form of that guy's testimonial data about the raid on the Geass cult (he's an ally and can be trusted at least). Ohgi, on the other hand, trusted not one but two enemies over the leader that built their army from the ground up, just because he had a thing for Villetta. Tohdoh has good reason not to trust Lelouch, though not good enough to excuse his compliance in that nonsense, but Ohgi has no defense for his actions. The man was a traitor since season 1.
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Old 2009-04-14, 13:20   Link #5407
demon_god04
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Quote:
They also said some other things, but undeniable proof isn't always necessary if you can cause confusion and someone like Ougi takes it all on a personal interest level
It is when your enemies are trying to convince you the leader that molded you from some pitiful resistance cells into a super power that could oppose Britannia has mystical super powers. The very notion of Geass is not common knowledge, and guess what, I did not see anyone else with magical powers that was common knowledge in the series, did you? Those powers were not common knowledge nor were they considered the norm. When someone puts forth a claim on the supernatural, it is expected to have some undeniable proof backing up your statments rather then one audio recording that they did not know the validity of, presented by your enemies that you have been fighting up until that minute and the conjectures of those enemies on who they think affected by that magical mystic power their leader supposedly had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The way I see it, they rebelled because in the end, they don't trust Zero. And that's to be expected. What mystified me was why would they trust a different Britannian prince instead?

My explanation, was the director making the decision to point out that the Japanese people are no saints themselves. This was a major screw-up moment for the Resistance, but it's only fair because Britannians made plenty of mistakes too.
That is also another thing I never got. They got burned for trusting Euphie, and now Lelouch, what makes them think Schneizel is any better? I mean they were basically taking Schneizel's word on faith that he is completely level with them with no concrete proof of the matter, only suspicions and conjectures.
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Old 2009-04-14, 14:53   Link #5408
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well schneizel did offer them japan for their cooperation didnt he?
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Old 2009-04-14, 14:55   Link #5409
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well schneizel did offer them japan for their cooperation didnt he?
The equivalent of the devil offering you everything you'd want. Do you trust him though? Especially just after you turned your back to the other devil... who was actually helping you.

Their actions are short sighted and amazingly contrived as a plot mechanic.
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Old 2009-04-14, 15:02   Link #5410
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by velvet nightmare View Post
well schneizel did offer them japan for their cooperation didnt he?
He didn't offer them anything. Ohgi took advantage of the situation to force a concession. Schenizel came in with nothing and expected everything in return. Also, what Frost said.
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Old 2009-04-14, 16:34   Link #5411
Bonzo
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However, the writers leaved a VERY POOR characterization of all BK characters on purpose, to show people with a working brain couldn't work with that betrayal scene.

With two simple motivations, if you're smart the first thing you want is to speak with your leader, instead the dialogue scene with zero were....zero.
A officer ask to a soldier what was the zero's secret mission, he reply "nothing" and you don't go to speak with zero?
Then at last the BK was a army of..."children" like the japan army during second world war, very heroic soldiers, but in the wrong way (watch "letter by iwojima" movie and you will understand).

The cult destruction, in the script lelouch hide/destroy everything to protect his secret (but only three people know it), but if you analyze it, it's too much immature, to keep some proof for every situation is the first thing every smart person want to do.

And about schneizel, his project was to kill all the BK in a single shot, but this is another story.

I continue to repeat my opinion, they made the anime running without to focus the good ideas and losing a lot of time with useless episodes like 12, etc...

Episode 11 is the border, after, the story lost the equilibrium.
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Old 2009-04-14, 18:23   Link #5412
iBeast
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Originally Posted by Meatrose View Post
I hate to break it to you, but no, he's not alive. It's been officially confirmed that he is dead.

I agree about Schneizel though (except for the bitch part), he went down way too easily.
Where? and who was the guy riding that wagon at the end than?
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Old 2009-04-14, 18:40   Link #5413
bladeofdarkness
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the writer said repeatedly in interviews
and the code geass complete guide says in the profile of FIVE DIFFERENT CHARACTERS that he is dead (lelouch,suzaku,C.C,kallen and nunnaly)

who knows who the cart driver is
who cares
its not lelouch
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Old 2009-04-14, 19:32   Link #5414
snowdevil_crow
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ANYWAY enough with the hate.

And iBeast... kay, I'm just about to contradict my earlier statement, but honestly I hate that theory so much.

Not even because it's unlikely or impossible, or because it's been repeatedly disproved by the director himself, or even because I think Lelouch would get off too easy that way (he wouldn't --- I'd say living forever without his loved ones would be pretty sucky for him).

I hate it purely because it destroys the ending for me. Yeah, a silly reason, but yeah. That's why I can't stand that theory. It's fun in fanfiction --- but as soon as someone starts suggesting it actually happened in canon, I feel like punching someone.

Sorry.

Just had to get that off my chest.
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Old 2009-04-14, 20:11   Link #5415
yvj
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First of all Lelouch is as dead as King Tut. Lelouch came to his own logical reasons (with some psychological factors sprinkled in there) to have himself killed.

But maybe he should have read more manga. Like Rurouni Kenshin

Spoiler for Shonen = philosophy pt1:



Spoiler for Shonen = philosophy pt 2:


If only Lelouch was a shonen jump fan
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Old 2009-04-14, 20:40   Link #5416
SonOfHeaven
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Originally Posted by yvj View Post
First of all Lelouch is as dead as King Tut. Lelouch came to his own logical reasons (with some psychological factors sprinkled in there) to have himself killed.

But maybe he should have read more manga. Like Rurouni Kenshin

Spoiler for Shonen = philosophy pt1:



Spoiler for Shonen = philosophy pt 2:


If only Lelouch was a shonen jump fan
Lelouch should have done something like that. However not having someone to tell him otherwise that would have affected him like Nunnally or Kallen. No one else in my opinion could have completely changed his mind about ZR.
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Old 2009-04-15, 00:43   Link #5417
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Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow View Post
ANYWAY enough with the hate.

And iBeast... kay, I'm just about to contradict my earlier statement, but honestly I hate that theory so much.

Not even because it's unlikely or impossible, or because it's been repeatedly disproved by the director himself, or even because I think Lelouch would get off too easy that way (he wouldn't --- I'd say living forever without his loved ones would be pretty sucky for him).

I hate it purely because it destroys the ending for me. Yeah, a silly reason, but yeah. That's why I can't stand that theory. It's fun in fanfiction --- but as soon as someone starts suggesting it actually happened in canon, I feel like punching someone.

Sorry.

Just had to get that off my chest.
The ending is what saved R2 from becoming a complete disaster for many fans. I think the most depressing thing for me about Zerozaku is that if someone asks him about Lelouch or Euphie, he's going to have to lie and tell the world that they were terrible people. And that he's going to have to take credit for killing Euphie. Not to mention he's gonna have to call himself a traitorous asshole, too. In the end, the closer you were to Lelouch, the more of a BAD END you got. Of those who were close to him, Kallen scraped by with the least-bad end. And the more I think about it Zero Requiem is horribly, depressingly ironic. Sunrise sure trolled us with a surprisingly powerful ending.
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Old 2009-04-15, 04:05   Link #5418
Kid Ying
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But Kallen know the truth too, so she have to lie about Lelouch to everyone in her entire life. In that way, it sux, since she likes Lelouch a lot. Well, at least she's happy living with her mom and stuff.

But i don't Suzaku got that bad of a an ending. He finally can make what he wanted in the entire series, to fix the system in the inside, since he's the new boss around these parts.

And like Snowdevil, i think that Lelouch with the code would be the worst possible ending for him(also, it would destroy the epicness of the ending). Everyone saw Highlander to see how imortallity sux bad. So if Sunrise someday ressurect him(which i hope they not, but since we know they love to milk series...), i hope they never, EVER do that way. They can make the worst explanation in the history of humanity, like "It was a plastic sword and the blood was ketchup", but don't make him immortal.
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Old 2009-04-15, 05:24   Link #5419
Levy
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And like Snowdevil, i think that Lelouch with the code would be the worst possible ending for him (also, it would destroy the epicness of the ending). Everyone saw Highlander to see how imortallity sux bad. So if Sunrise someday ressurect him(which i hope they not, but since we know they love to milk series...), i hope they never, EVER do that way. They can make the worst explanation in the history of humanity, like "It was a plastic sword and the blood was ketchup", but don't make him immortal.
..idol? LOL, I hope in a good sense! XD; I agree with the first part of this, immortality would have been a curse to Lelouch, not an easy way out of his personal history - that doesn't exclude that he could have been able to find some happiness along the way of hiding from the world, but things just get more messy speculating over events in a distant future, so let's not go into that... - But if they want to bring him to life again, in a story like Geass that has all this magicall elements here and there, making him immortal is the most reasonable if not the only possible solution.

@FruitsPunchSamurai: I agree that, despite all of its faults, the ending is the best part of R2, and that Suzaku got a fate worse than death.
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Old 2009-04-15, 05:46   Link #5420
Kid Ying
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It's in a good sense! I don't swing in that way.... Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Well, i'm not Okouchi, and i don't think he want to bring Lulu back (of course, if Sunrise gives him some $$ even Clovis got a chance), but i'm sure he could make a better solution. Even if it was the famous "I'm alive and don't have to explain" that happens in Gundam all the time(even in CG happened with Guilford) i would be happier than with L2.
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