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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 790 63.71%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 163 13.15%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 95 7.66%
7 out of 10 : Good 67 5.40%
6 out of 10 : Average 17 1.37%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 18 1.45%
4 out of 10 : Poor 7 0.56%
3 out of 10 : Bad 7 0.56%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 4 0.32%
1 out of 10 : Painful 72 5.81%
Voters: 1240. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-07-16, 12:14   Link #5781
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
It is worth mentioning we are talking about a show where a million people could dress up as Zero and ride an iceberg ship to China.

See, the creators wanted to involve only ten thousand, initially, but after some discussion they ended up deciding to go all out with the stunt. Obviously even the staff knew the idea was ridiculous and unrealistic but after the fact they simply justified it by openly saying "this would only work in anime" in the commentary track.

Why am I bringing this up? If that applies to what was probably the most logistically unrealistic event in the show, I'll let you figure out what that means for any unrealistic logistics in the finale.
I didn't know the history behind that scene. Now I'm giggling stupidly.

Also, word to the "Code Geass is not all that big on realism" thing. If I don't see the show portaying ZR as but the tragic, horrible result of Lelouch (and Suzaku) having been pushed over the edge for good, then even if I were to agree that their grand plan doesn't make the tiniest bit of sense (which is an opinion I can certainly understand and even get behind to a point), I'd still not see it that way. Come on, realistically, Lelouch would have dropped dead from exhaustion without ever stopping Damocles. Errr, I mean, look, they totally killed the realism with the stamina running gag! Get it? Running gag. Haha. ...All right, I'll shut up now.

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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
I'd say it was because Lelouch was already in too deep to turn back. Schneizel would call him on it.
That's not what he says, though, and while Lelouch knows how to lie to himself and the world, I don't see anything in that scene hinting at such a thing. I'd say it's a fair enough guess that he was just fooling himself despite that, considering the situation, but it's still a guess. He also tells C.C. that he's thought about his choice back then x times already, and I don't think that's what he usually does when he wants to delude himself, but I suppose that's debatable.

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She was smiling in the end because Lelouch had given her companionship.
True, but I think she wouldn't have been so happy had she been pitying Lelouch's fate, so if he had basically just dragged a whole lot of people down with him for the sake of his death wish and C.C. knew it, they should at least have taken the crane out of the scene, which for me still strongly represents his (and Nunnally's) wish for a gentle world.
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Old 2011-07-16, 13:14   Link #5782
azul120
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I didn't know the history behind that scene. Now I'm giggling stupidly.

Also, word to the "Code Geass is not all that big on realism" thing. If I don't see the show portaying ZR as but the tragic, horrible result of Lelouch (and Suzaku) having been pushed over the edge for good, then even if I were to agree that their grand plan doesn't make the tiniest bit of sense (which is an opinion I can certainly understand and even get behind to a point), I'd still not see it that way. Come on, realistically, Lelouch would have dropped dead from exhaustion without ever stopping Damocles. Errr, I mean, look, they totally killed the realism with the stamina running gag! Get it? Running gag. Haha. ...All right, I'll shut up now.
It just doesn't follow though. As blade has pointed numerous times, ZR runs counter to his entire ethic, not just by involving atrocities on par with if not worse than the ones he was trying to stop, but also contradicting his own words to Charles that forcing one's idea of good on others is evil. And that it ended happy makes it an Esoteric Happy Ending.

Quote:
That's not what he says, though, and while Lelouch knows how to lie to himself and the world, I don't see anything in that scene hinting at such a thing. I'd say it's a fair enough guess that he was just fooling himself despite that, considering the situation, but it's still a guess. He also tells C.C. that he's thought about his choice back then x times already, and I don't think that's what he usually does when he wants to delude himself, but I suppose that's debatable.
It may not be what he says, but that doesn't make it any less true. Not to mention that he was in too deep for other reasons, not the least of which was that he already declared himself enemy of the world.

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True, but I think she wouldn't have been so happy had she been pitying Lelouch's fate, so if he had basically just dragged a whole lot of people down with him for the sake of his death wish and C.C. knew it, they should at least have taken the crane out of the scene, which for me still strongly represents his (and Nunnally's) wish for a gentle world.
Maybe they just didn't want to disrupt the vibe with anything like that.

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Originally Posted by wredsa View Post
You mean put in millions of people in jail to be executed one month after ZR. That is another possible scenario.

The reason I feel Lelouch did not commit any real atrocities is because he felt very bad as it is just to use Geass to make people suicide ( most of them were combatants anyway ) so I have difficulty thinking the same Lelouch doing real atrocities.
It was implied that he had been, given his Zero Percent Approval Rating.
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Old 2011-07-16, 14:09   Link #5783
Sol Falling
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It just doesn't follow though. As blade has pointed numerous times, ZR runs counter to his entire ethic, not just by involving atrocities on par with if not worse than the ones he was trying to stop, but also contradicting his own words to Charles that forcing one's idea of good on others is evil. And that it ended happy makes it an Esoteric Happy Ending.
What ethic, exactly? And isn't the latter pretty much the entire point of Lelouch's character, i.e. "Become evil to destroy evil"? In the first place, there still hasn't been any actual proof provided that Lelouch's "atrocities" involved anything more than killing a whole lot of people who opposed him so it would be quite a stretch to say that they were actually worse than a lot of other shit that happened in the series--for example, the SAZ massecre or the Fleija-ing of entire major cities particularly. In those cases, the losses went as far as the entire mass indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians.

I don't understand what you mean about Lelouch forcing anything on anyone. By the end of Zero:Requiem, Lelouch dies, and the various world governments are left to pick up the pieces. Where does force remotely play into things here?

In any case, it is possible for the world to be a happy place without Lelouch, isn't it? No matter how much conflict in Code Geass' world, shouldn't the inherent humanity of the peaceful people of the world be enough that at some point, at some time, it is reasonable to expect that the world will have become a pleasant enough place to live in? At the end of R2, the major villains have been defeated. Politically, the causes for war across the great nations have all been removed too. Is it really that ridiculous to then accept a happy ending? It's not like anything is actually ruined by having someone like Ohgi for Prime Minister.

To say that the world managed to become a happy place after Zero:Requiem is not a stretch at all. I think that it is only personal resentment of certain characters, and attachment to others, which might make one think otherwise.
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Old 2011-07-17, 07:11   Link #5784
rinichan
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Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
Hmm ... May I Out from Topic for a while ?

Most of the Geass characters is killed through KMF battle or massacre at some degree.

I'm taking those because their death is the death that changed CG lines at most aspect ( from my POV )
As well as showing similar symptomps. A blackened eyes and no scene showing they're resurrected after their death.

Spoiler for Thank you:
Ive seen a blackenned eyed Nina but shes not dead...
I'll post it later... the pic...
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Old 2011-07-17, 13:53   Link #5785
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You mean put in millions of people in jail to be executed one month after ZR. That is another possible scenario.

The reason I feel Lelouch did not commit any real atrocities is because he felt very bad as it is just to use Geass to make people suicide ( most of them were combatants anyway ) so I have difficulty thinking the same Lelouch doing real atrocities.
You wouldn't call what he did to all those Britannian soldiers he brainwashed and killed an atrocity? Its pretty much shown that the Britannian Royal family has a history of insanity.
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Old 2011-07-17, 20:09   Link #5786
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
What ethic, exactly? And isn't the latter pretty much the entire point of Lelouch's character, i.e. "Become evil to destroy evil"? In the first place, there still hasn't been any actual proof provided that Lelouch's "atrocities" involved anything more than killing a whole lot of people who opposed him so it would be quite a stretch to say that they were actually worse than a lot of other shit that happened in the series--for example, the SAZ massecre or the Fleija-ing of entire major cities particularly. In those cases, the losses went as far as the entire mass indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians.
Those were accidental. Therefore they don't count. And the latter (the FLEIJA) had as much if not more to do with Suzaku's idiocy.

And by "becoming evil to destroy evil", Lelouch was referring to necessity. The Zero Requiem, in addition to being quite possibly worse than anything that could be directly attributed to his rebellion, was arguably unnecessary. More on that in a bit.

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I don't understand what you mean about Lelouch forcing anything on anyone. By the end of Zero:Requiem, Lelouch dies, and the various world governments are left to pick up the pieces. Where does force remotely play into things here?
While that is true, he is basically forcing the events of the Zero Requiem on the world, when he could get back to being a good leader. Let me ask you this: do you approve of Ozymandias' similar actions in the Watchmen?

Quote:
In any case, it is possible for the world to be a happy place without Lelouch, isn't it? No matter how much conflict in Code Geass' world, shouldn't the inherent humanity of the peaceful people of the world be enough that at some point, at some time, it is reasonable to expect that the world will have become a pleasant enough place to live in? At the end of R2, the major villains have been defeated. Politically, the causes for war across the great nations have all been removed too. Is it really that ridiculous to then accept a happy ending? It's not like anything is actually ruined by having someone like Ohgi for Prime Minister.
It is quite possibly inferior though, not to mention undeserved, for a person like him to become leader in spite of, or infact because of the steps he took, which basically also led Lelouch down the path of the Zero Requiem. Not to mention Villetta, who was also rewarded in spite of putting Lelouch through a lot of crap, Cornelia, who got off scot free for everything she pulled.

You know what it reminds me of in real life? Conan O'Brien losing the Tonight Show and Jay Leno, whose evening talk show bomb sabotaged the former ratings, ending up as the Tonight Show host in his place. Truth In Television, evidently.

Let's face it: Lelouch could have done a lot more for the world if he were to live on as a good leader instead of sacrificing himself and taking so many people down with him. Ohgi on the other hand demonstrated anti-leadership ever since he became fixated on Villetta. Diethard even lampshaded it in Turn 20!

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To say that the world managed to become a happy place after Zero:Requiem is not a stretch at all. I think that it is only personal resentment of certain characters, and attachment to others, which might make one think otherwise.
I would lie if I said there wasn't any resentment involved, but said resentment is rooted in objectivity under the terms of what I've already mentioned. Believe me, I LIKED Ohgi at first. He used to be one of the Only Sane Men in the Black Knights. It was his rash decisions with Villetta that ultimately led to the betrayal of Lelouch. He gets away with a lot of crap on which he calls out Lelouch, who, unlucky bastard that he is, has to abide by some sort of ultimately broken aesop. And who gets rewarded with the happy ending?

And Villetta and Cornelia are major charlatans at the end, in addition to Karma Houdinis.

As for Lelouch, it isn't only about the world being better overall without Lelouch than if he were to not do the Zero Requiem and live on as a good leader instead, but also how he just plain got a raw deal. Not to mention the betrayal and everything that followed, Zero Requiem included, could have been averted if not for a few crucial things, pretty much shifting the final outcome.

And there's a trope for endings presented as happy even though there are some serious issues: Esoteric Happy Ending.

Last edited by azul120; 2011-07-18 at 16:27.
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Old 2011-07-18, 04:49   Link #5787
Boomproof
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The story was ok, but it repeats the same situations over and over again. Britannia is the Evil, with or without geass.
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Old 2011-07-18, 14:45   Link #5788
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You wouldn't call what he did to all those Britannian soldiers he brainwashed and killed an atrocity? Its pretty much shown that the Britannian Royal family has a history of insanity.
COme on, they are soldiers they would be in harm's way anyway. Though Lelouch felt bad using them with Geass as well.
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Old 2011-07-18, 15:09   Link #5789
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And there's a trope for endings presented as happy even though there are some serious issues: Esoteric Happy Ending.
This includes the likes of Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Hans Christian Andersen's The Little Mermaid, both of them mentioned under that trope, among other works with proven literary value which could potentially be listed for having happy endings that do not withstand a sufficiently cynical or skeptical review of the circumstances surrounding them and their external implications.

As long as we're referencing TV Tropes though, it must always be said that tropes are not inherently good or bad. It depends on how they're used, of course, but also on how the audience chooses to look at them. Which brings us back to the previous discussion earlier in this topic.
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Old 2011-07-18, 16:25   Link #5790
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This includes the likes of Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Hans Christian Andersen's The Little Mermaid, both of them mentioned under that trope, among other works with proven literary value which could potentially be listed for having happy endings that do not withstand a sufficiently cynical or skeptical review of the circumstances surrounding them and their external implications.

As long as we're referencing TV Tropes though, it must always be said that tropes are not inherently good or bad. It depends on how they're used, of course, but also on how the audience chooses to look at them. Which brings us back to the previous discussion earlier in this topic.
While that is true, I believe you're misattributing that statement. Tropes like Esoteric Happy Ending are subjectives, and fall more under audience reactions.

Added to my earlier post in case Sol Falling comes back to reply.
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Old 2011-07-19, 02:12   Link #5791
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COme on, they are soldiers they would be in harm's way anyway. Though Lelouch felt bad using them with Geass as well.
Just because their soldiers doesn't give anyone a right to brainwash them then have them killed. You become a soldier so you can protect people, not get killed because you have the misfortune to be ruled by Lelouch.
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Old 2011-07-25, 15:01   Link #5792
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Just because their soldiers doesn't give anyone a right to brainwash them then have them killed. You become a soldier so you can protect people, not get killed because you have the misfortune to be ruled by Lelouch.
They not only protected people but they gave their lives for world peace. I know they might have done it unwittingly but they managed to be martyrs. Is it really their misfortune ... probably but many of them outlived Lelouch in the end so I think they wont complain much.
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Old 2011-07-25, 16:21   Link #5793
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They not only protected people but they gave their lives for world peace. I know they might have done it unwittingly but they managed to be martyrs. Is it really their misfortune ... probably but many of them outlived Lelouch in the end so I think they wont complain much.
On the contrary, the soldiers Lelouch Geassed were used to help him conquer the world and to oppress people, Britannia included (i.e. their own people). Lelouch was a martyr for peace 'from a certain point of view' but history will revile him as a tyrant, and one would realistically* expect all his Geassed soldiers to be seen as accomplices and tried for war crimes (draw your own real world parallels), given that the world at large is ignorant of Geass. Martyrs they may be, but it will be for the side everybody hates.

Also remember that Lelouch destroyed large parts of Britannian culture, and since those who served him were Britannian soldiers, they were forced to do the exact opposite of what a soldier is supposed to do. That is, harm their own people and directly aid in the destruction of their own culture.

As for outliving Lelouch, this is likely moot as there is nothing to indicate that they were freed from his Geass control, meaning they would be mindless puppets until they die. One could argue that from a certain viewpoint, they effectively 'died' the moment Lelouch used his Geass on them.

Though you are technically corect (the best kind of correct) in that they wouldn't complain, as they would lack the free will to do so, but their families, friends, and loved ones would likely suffer a great deal.

* Yes, this is a deliberate nod to one of Xander's earlier points about realism in the series.
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Old 2011-07-25, 18:53   Link #5794
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Besides, the point is that Lelouch quite possibly had better alternatives, but just wanted one that would fulfill his death wish in the most flamboyant way possible.
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Old 2011-07-25, 21:47   Link #5795
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On the contrary, the soldiers Lelouch Geassed were used to help him conquer the world and to oppress people, Britannia included (i.e. their own people). Lelouch was a martyr for peace 'from a certain point of view' but history will revile him as a tyrant, and one would realistically* expect all his Geassed soldiers to be seen as accomplices and tried for war crimes (draw your own real world parallels), given that the world at large is ignorant of Geass. Martyrs they may be, but it will be for the side everybody hates.

Also remember that Lelouch destroyed large parts of Britannian culture, and since those who served him were Britannian soldiers, they were forced to do the exact opposite of what a soldier is supposed to do. That is, harm their own people and directly aid in the destruction of their own culture.

As for outliving Lelouch, this is likely moot as there is nothing to indicate that they were freed from his Geass control, meaning they would be mindless puppets until they die. One could argue that from a certain viewpoint, they effectively 'died' the moment Lelouch used his Geass on them.

Though you are technically corect (the best kind of correct) in that they wouldn't complain, as they would lack the free will to do so, but their families, friends, and loved ones would likely suffer a great deal.

* Yes, this is a deliberate nod to one of Xander's earlier points about realism in the series.
As I said before, the oppression is a smoke screen, he might not even hurt a fly and made bulls*** about his own rule. That means he simulated an oppression without really doing anything bad.
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Old 2011-07-26, 01:30   Link #5796
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As I said before, the oppression is a smoke screen, he might not even hurt a fly and made bulls*** about his own rule. That means he simulated an oppression without really doing anything bad.
Even if this were true, the whole point of ZR is that no one would know this. Whether or not these soldiers actually commited any mass killings, the fact remains that everyone thinks they did, will judge them accordingly, and anyone who cared about them will be confused and devastated as to why someone they loved would loyally serve the single greatest "tyrant" in human history.

As well, it is a fact that Lelouch destroyed many aspects of Britannian culture as I said, and enforcing the destruction of one's own culture is contrary to what a soldier is supposed to do.

As such regardless of the truth, the world will know these soldiers destroyed their own culture, fought on behalf of a tyrant, and opressed their own people (all of which is true) along with the rest of the world, and merely "believe" that they helped murder innocents en masse (which is only theoretically untrue).

In other words, these soldiers were shafted pretty badly, and realistically,* alot of people close to them would be affected by this, but world peace requires that none of it be exposed.

* Again, a nod to Xander's point about realism in the series

Last edited by Betteroffer; 2011-07-26 at 01:41.
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Old 2011-07-26, 18:42   Link #5797
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Even if this were true, the whole point of ZR is that no one would know this. Whether or not these soldiers actually commited any mass killings, the fact remains that everyone thinks they did, will judge them accordingly, and anyone who cared about them will be confused and devastated as to why someone they loved would loyally serve the single greatest "tyrant" in human history.

As well, it is a fact that Lelouch destroyed many aspects of Britannian culture as I said, and enforcing the destruction of one's own culture is contrary to what a soldier is supposed to do.

As such regardless of the truth, the world will know these soldiers destroyed their own culture, fought on behalf of a tyrant, and opressed their own people (all of which is true) along with the rest of the world, and merely "believe" that they helped murder innocents en masse (which is only theoretically untrue).

In other words, these soldiers were shafted pretty badly, and realistically,* alot of people close to them would be affected by this, but world peace requires that none of it be exposed.

* Again, a nod to Xander's point about realism in the series
The populace would not know the ID of these soldiers. They were masks for ...
I am sure Leloouch made a plan for them to rejoin the society as a good commoners.

I reckon Orange Kun did ungeass them in the end too.

Then again ZR would not be needed if Suzaku ( and bit of Lelouch ) would not need to clean Euphemia's name. At the very least Lelouch did not destroy cities with nukes ( like Schneizel planned ).
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Old 2011-07-28, 00:32   Link #5798
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The populace would not know the ID of these soldiers. They were masks for ...
I am sure Leloouch made a plan for them to rejoin the society as a good commoners.

I reckon Orange Kun did ungeass them in the end too.

Then again ZR would not be needed if Suzaku ( and bit of Lelouch ) would not need to clean Euphemia's name. At the very least Lelouch did not destroy cities with nukes ( like Schneizel planned ).
It's doubtful that Lelouch could hide the identities of several thousand people like that. Even if he could, this would spur the world to search relentlessly for them given that, as far as the public knows, these soldiers served as the hands of a genocidal maniac. They would be chased to the ends of the earth, much like many Nazi's were following the end of WWII.

If Jeremiah cancelled the Geass placed on them, then they would regain all the memories of the things they did while under Lelouch's control. In addition to possibly exposing the truth about ZR, this would also reveal the existence of mass mind control abilities to the world or at worst, the existence of Geass itself. And that is only if the soldiers are actually believed.

Even if the rumors of mass murder were a trick, the soldiers would still suddenly be aware of a period of several months where they were powerless in their own bodies as they were made to oppress their countrymen and destroy their country's institutions. We know for a fact that Lelouch was "putting down" the forces of nobles who wanted to retain their titles, so they were fighting their fellow soldiers for awhile. How would they seek psychological help for this without revealling themselves as soldiers of Lelouch?
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Old 2011-07-28, 01:54   Link #5799
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There was enough inferred knowledge that he was committing atrocities. Think of it this way, he was making himself even worse than Charles.

Really, the idea that he was doing all of this as atonement is just absurd.
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Old 2011-07-28, 11:47   Link #5800
Xander
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Not that this discussion makes a lot of sense, in the absence of any figures to make a proper comparison, but
"worse than Charles" doesn't necessarily mean Lelouch had to kill more people in two or three months than his father did in an unspecified but greater number of years. He just needs to take actions that are publicly considered as far more oppressive, reprehensible, arbitrary or authoritarian, something which isn't exclusively measured in terms of carnage alone. Even enslaving his soldiers and turning them into mindless stormtroopers counts as one of those apparently unprecedented offenses.

Lelouch did, no doubt, end up spilling a lot of blood...but his entire Evil Emperor act wasn't limited to that. In fact, Lelouch only referred to the Mad Princess Euphemia, not Charles, when making any sort of explicit reference about how much death would ensue as a result of his actions.

As for the idea itself, I believe my opinion requires no further elaboration at this point.

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Even if he could, this would spur the world to search relentlessly for them given that, as far as the public knows, these soldiers served as the hands of a genocidal maniac. They would be chased to the ends of the earth, much like many Nazi's were following the end of WWII.
Actually, of the millions of German soldiers, SS forces and card-carrying Nazi Party members, only a small fraction largely focused on those who were especially infamous and/or high-ranking officers ended up being "chased to the ends of the Earth" as you've just put it. But most of those who carried out abuses or otherwise collaborated with such offenses weren't.

For every Nazi caught and tried for his crimes there were literally thousands who never received so much as a slap on the wrist and most of those punished were sentenced to very light sentences in the long run. Nuremberg was the exception, not the rule, and the later denazification efforts were usually quite generous and forgiving in comparison.

Of course, we don't know exactly how many people were turned into faceless slaves by Emperor Lelouch, nor should we expect any official statistics on the matter to be logistically possible or remotely realistic.

Therefore, if we were to somehow assume that Lelouch's slave soldiers are going to receive a similar treatment, then most of them aren't likely to have much of a problem in post-war Britannia as far as judicial affairs are concerned. That's not to say they wouldn't be affected in other ways (such as dealing with some psychological fallout, though this is impossibly hard to measure with any degree of accuracy), regardless of the show's inherently unrealistic status, but it wouldn't exactly be fair -nor, ironically, realistic- to conclude they are all uniformly destined to suffer.

Last edited by Xander; 2011-07-28 at 12:16.
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