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Old 2008-10-05, 07:32   Link #61
Skyw4lker
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Real life is all about drama. Why would fansubbing be any different?
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Old 2008-10-06, 02:53   Link #62
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teppei View Post
Personally, I do fansubbing as a hobby, and have no interest in being part of some imaginary corporate-like hierarchy while doing it. I would have thought more people would be of the same opinion.
It's the basis of teamwork and delegating responsibility to certain people (or just the one) with mutual respect. This occurs for all situations in life, online or offline and most successful projects undergo some form of organisation and discipline.
That's all there is to it.

I do this as a hobby too, which is why once my fansubbing aspect is done, I'm all for terrorising the peeps in the chan and just hanging out/socialising, but I try to take my hobby somewhat seriously to improve my current skills.
Practice makes better.
Besides, *amused* somehow I doubt many corporate companies would allow their employees to try to have anal sex, bukkake parties or lick one another in an office...
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Old 2008-10-06, 03:37   Link #63
Mentar
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To add my 0.013€ to the discussion:

Being a project manager in real life influenced me alot here - but in my experience the best setup is NOT to have a hierarchical structure in fansubbing. Having someone who is calling the shots and delegating work tends to create an atmosphere of dependence: People wait for instructions and don't try to fix things themselves, they rather "bump it up" to the leader and wait. I've seen the same thing happen in several groups I assisted in the past.

In my opinion, it's best to delegate authority to the "staff" and let them decide things on their own. Likewise, create an atmosphere where people "help out" even if it's not their regular field of expertise. For example, when the editor fixes a timing error, the encoder is fixing a sign bleed or adding a new sign which was omitted, or the typesetter is encoding when the encoder is ill. Also, they should have the last word in their respective field. In the ideal setup, they will listen closely to the feedback they receive from the other staffers, but THEY should make the final decisions about their expertise.

That way, all you need is something more like "primus inter pares" who loosely organizes stuff a'la "who is taking on this role for the next project?" or deals as liaison to other groups in joints.

Yes, this requires a veteran staff that trusts each other, and that respects the natural boundaries between the different roles in the process, but if you DO pull it off, it's very efficient and relaxing to the nerves. At least I've grown to HATE it when people come crying to me in Real Life which they could have sorted out much quicker between themselves. I could imagine that many people might like being in this "leader" position and calling the shots, but I would rather do something productive myself instead of trying to hound after staff members to do their job.
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Old 2008-10-06, 04:17   Link #64
TGEN
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Old 2008-10-06, 07:40   Link #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
To add my 0.013€ to the discussion:

In my opinion, it's best to delegate authority to the "staff" and let them decide things on their own. Likewise, create an atmosphere where people "help out" even if it's not their regular field of expertise. For example, when the editor fixes a timing error, the encoder is fixing a sign bleed or adding a new sign which was omitted, or the typesetter is encoding when the encoder is ill. Also, they should have the last word in their respective field. In the ideal setup, they will listen closely to the feedback they receive from the other staffers, but THEY should make the final decisions about their expertise.

That way, all you need is something more like "primus inter pares" who loosely organizes stuff a'la "who is taking on this role for the next project?" or deals as liaison to other groups in joints.
And, here's my two-cents [again]. ;p

There's a big difference between a company and a fansub group. One is for profit (i.e., money is involved) and the other is for non-profit. Fansub staff usually do not receive any money unless it's under a strange group policy. Regardless, fansubbers usually prefer to do what they like to do.

For example, since I can use After-Effects/Photoshop, virtualdub/mencode/avisynth/x264, and aegisub/medusa/ssa4.08 well, does it mean that I must typeset, encode, and time for projects? If the encoder is absent, is there a reason me to cover his job in his absence? But, because I hate encoding and since I'm not getting paid, why would I want to do stuff that I hate? Hence, that's a good reason for me not to cover his job.

Fansubbing is a hobby; I choose what I like to do. I initially thought that leading fansub and projects is fun, but I was wrong; I don't have the time to do what I want to do in order to better my skills. And, some people lead groups just to have fun messing around with others (what you called 'trolling')--as we well noticed here.
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Old 2008-10-06, 09:12   Link #66
tun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pichu View Post
And, here's my two-cents [again]. ;p

There's a big difference between a company and a fansub group. One is for profit (i.e., money is involved) and the other is for non-profit. Fansub staff usually do not receive any money unless it's under a strange group policy. Regardless, fansubbers usually prefer to do what they like to do.

For example, since I can use After-Effects/Photoshop, virtualdub/mencode/avisynth/x264, and aegisub/medusa/ssa4.08 well, does it mean that I must typeset, encode, and time for projects? If the encoder is absent, is there a reason me to cover his job in his absence? But, because I hate encoding and since I'm not getting paid, why would I want to do stuff that I hate? Hence, that's a good reason for me not to cover his job.

Fansubbing is a hobby; I choose what I like to do. I initially thought that leading fansub and projects is fun, but I was wrong; I don't have the time to do what I want to do in order to better my skills. And, some people lead groups just to have fun messing around with others (what you called 'trolling')--as we well noticed here.
missingthepoint.jpg

Of course fansubbers usually do what they want. But he's saying that fansubbers can be more efficient if they're self-sufficient i.e. they don't need to rely on a leader, and they don't mind doing little things that are beyond the scope of their duties for the sake of the project. He's just answering the original question posed by this thread: which is better, leader or no leader?

This whole thread is basically about organizational culture as applied to fansubbing. What you're saying is basically labor unionism, where "it's not in my job description, so it's not my responsibility" is the rule. That's fine, but there's a reason why the American auto companies are getting their asses kicked while Japanese companies with plants in America are thriving.
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Last edited by tun; 2008-10-06 at 09:24.
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Old 2008-10-06, 10:29   Link #67
pichu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tun View Post
missingthepoint.jpg

Of course fansubbers usually do what they want. But he's saying that fansubbers can be more efficient if they're self-sufficient i.e. they don't need to rely on a leader, and they don't mind doing little things that are beyond the scope of their duties for the sake of the project. He's just answering the original question posed by this thread: which is better, leader or no leader?

This whole thread is basically about organizational culture as applied to fansubbing. What you're saying is basically labor unionism, where "it's not in my job description, so it's not my responsibility" is the rule. That's fine, but there's a reason why the American auto companies are getting their asses kicked while Japanese companies with plants in America are thriving.
Actually, I have not missed any point. What I'm saying is that fansubbing is created on an infrastructure based on mere interests. Surely, I can do most of the stuff, but does it mean that I want to do it? Or is it my obligation to do out of my job?

You're missing the point of this thread. I didn't ask: "which is better -- with a leader or without a leader [anarchy]?" I'm asking which do you prefer to be? Order people around, or do what you were told to do.

Here are the two completely different arguments, but the result is the same: motivations.

1. Do what you're interested to do.
2. Carry out your obligations, what you have to do, and your responsibilities.

I follow 1 as my standard, and he follows 2. Both have similar outcomes.
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Old 2008-10-06, 10:43   Link #68
tun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pichu View Post
Actually, I have not missed any point. What I'm saying that fansubbing is created on an infrastructure based on mere interests. Surely, I can do most of the stuff, but does it mean that I want to do it? Or is it my obligation to do out of my job?
Didn't I already address this in my post? That's fine if you want to take the labor unionism approach, but some people don't mind doing a little extra for the sake of efficiency.

Quote:
You're missing the point of this thread. I didn't ask: "which is better -- with a leader or without a leader [anarchy]?" I'm asking which do you prefer to be? Order people around, or do what you were told to do.
I don't particularly agree with your characterization of "without a leader" as being anarchy. Mentar's group is certainly a good example of that. My group is also more or less the same way.

My response is also based on my belief that you're missing a third option: do your work without having to be told.

Quote:
Here are the two completely different arguments, but the result is the same: motivations.

1. Do what you're interested to do.
2. Know your obligations, what you have to do, and your responsibilities.

I follow 1 as my standard, and he follows 2. Both have similar outcomes.
Yes, motivation is the real issue here, because a whip cracking-type leader would be meaningless if people were highly motivated to do their work every week.

I don't see how #1 and #2 are separate issues though. You do what you're interested in within the fansubbing chain, but that work then becomes your responsibility every week.
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Old 2008-10-06, 11:03   Link #69
pichu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tun View Post
Didn't I already address this in my post? That's fine if you want to take the labor unionism approach, but some people don't mind doing a little extra for the sake of efficiency.


I don't particularly agree with your characterization of "without a leader" as being anarchy. Mentar's group is certainly a good example of that. My group is also more or less the same way.

My response is also based on my belief that you're missing a third option: do your work without having to be told.


Yes, motivation is the real issue here, because a whip cracking-type leader would be meaningless if people were highly motivated to do their work every week.

I don't see how #1 and #2 are separate issues though. You do what you're interested in within the fansubbing chain, but that work then becomes your responsibility every week.
Actually, we're on a different argument and different train of thoughts. Personally nowadays, I don't really care how a group progresses. I just do things so that I can better myself as an AFX and a graphics user. Doing my jobs has NEVER become my obligations; I only do it for the sake of challenges in order to have the 'best' titles and be recognized; at times, when the job becomes too monotonous, I will lose my motivations regardless of what others have to say. Capiche?

"do your work without having to be told." is the same as option #2... You should calm down a little bit and rethink your arguments... #2 can be the result of #1, but #2 is not inferred from #1.

Edit: Like most other well-known/best typesetters and AFX'rs, I will quit and do something else once I have reached the pinnacle.
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Last edited by pichu; 2008-10-06 at 11:22.
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Old 2008-10-06, 11:23   Link #70
tun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pichu View Post
Actually, we're on a different argument and different train of thoughts. Personally nowadays, I don't really care how a group progresses. I just do things so that I can better myself as an AFX and a graphics user. Doing my jobs has NEVER become my obligations; I only do it for the sake of challenges in order to have the 'best' titles and be recognized; at times, when the job becomes too monotonous, I will lose my motivations regardless of what others have to say. Capiche?

"do your work without having to be told." is the same as option #2... You should calm down a little bit and rethink your arguments... #2 can be the result of #1, but #2 is not inferred from #1.
Fansubbing: srs bsns. Who said I was mad? I don't think I've been writing in that kind of tone.

I'm merely speaking about fansubbing norms. Your motivations are clearly an exception to the rule. Sure, use yourself as an example and you can disprove any point.

You should stop making assumptions and word your arguments better. #2 mentions nothing about whether the motivation is external or internal.
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Old 2008-10-06, 11:31   Link #71
pichu
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external or internal? Have I even said anything about internal or external motivations lol? I only said "motivations".

I've known there are fansubbers who are like me; maybe you haven't been exposed lately? Hence, I made those two points, indicating that you're on a different boat as I am.
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Old 2008-10-06, 11:34   Link #72
tun
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Originally Posted by pichu View Post
external or internal? Have I even said anything about internal or external motivations lol? I only said "motivations".

I've known there are fansubbers who are like me; maybe you haven't been exposed lately? Hence, I made those two points, indicating that you're on a different boat as I am.
And I'm telling you that it matters because it basically determines whether you do your work without being told, or you're just on the receiving end of a whipping.

Yes, because elitist typesetters compose the majority of all fansubbers.
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Old 2008-10-06, 11:43   Link #73
pichu
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meh whatever... If you read my first post clearly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pichu View Post
And at times, I prefer to freelance and to do work on a per diem basis, so that after the day is over, I'm not bound to listening to anyone anymore.
There are two issues -- 1. to be motivated based on the interests 2. to be recognized. The latter requires the general public to see my work before others, hence requiring me to work faster. I'm sure you can conclude from this logically. If you excuse me, I have to do my work.
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Old 2008-10-07, 18:32   Link #74
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Originally Posted by tun View Post
And I'm telling you that it matters because it basically determines whether you do your work without being told, or you're just on the receiving end of a whipping.

Yes, because elitist typesetters compose the majority of all fansubbers.
after working with/under tun, I think I'm gay for him now (I suppose everyone else is, too)

tl;dr being a leader gets you a good harem, etc (see: Koda)
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Old 2008-10-09, 05:16   Link #75
getfresh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teppei View Post
Personally, I do fansubbing as a hobby, and have no interest in being part of some imaginary corporate-like hierarchy while doing it. I would have thought more people would be of the same opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilr00t View Post
Same here, I'm subbing shows that I love, with no obligation to continue or release in any timeframe.
It isn't about a power thing like some ppl seem to believe. It is more about having someone dedicated to the organization factor of the group. It has nothing to do with time frames for the most part imo, it is more about seeing a need and filling it. If you have 5 people on a project all working fast and one guy doing nada but holding it up, the other 5 get rightfully pissed. Having someone to mediate those situations is always a plus. It takes a a certain type of person to be a good leader.
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Old 2008-10-09, 09:16   Link #76
Teppei
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Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
It isn't about a power thing like some ppl seem to believe. It is more about having someone dedicated to the organization factor of the group. It has nothing to do with time frames for the most part imo, it is more about seeing a need and filling it. If you have 5 people on a project all working fast and one guy doing nada but holding it up, the other 5 get rightfully pissed. Having someone to mediate those situations is always a plus. It takes a a certain type of person to be a good leader.
I guess I really don't think so, that someone has to be "leader". Five people that can handle the complex task of doing a fansub are probably capable (IMO) of organizing themselves (and skipping over any non-productive person) without having to organize into a hierarchy. Sure, having someone who is good at mediating is a plus, but then that person would be a "mediator" or something, not obligatorily a "boss".

Also I don't buy the meme that "leaders" are different in "type" from other people. I think that's one of the big lies in our culture, and a pretty destructive one at that.

But I do think it does come down to people's preference. My preference is not to be either a "leader" or "worker" but to work in a group that doesn't feel those distinctions are required.
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Old 2008-10-09, 10:15   Link #77
getfresh
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What I'm taking from the anti "leader" stuff seems more like a "I don't like the idea of anyone being higher than me" thing. You say "5 people" but a "group leader" isn't for dealing with a "5 person" situation. Some groups have 10-20 staffers, multiple projects, distros, websites, etc... The whole concept of "everyone should know what they are doing" in that situation is pretty much fantasy. Also most fansubbers I know are not on just 1 or 2 projects, they are on several. It helps to have someone there who's job is just knowing what needs doing and getting the proper person informed.

I have been on quite a few "one show" projects, and they end up riddled with issues most of the time due to lack of communication and organization. Not to say this is always true, but imo the simple truth is it's a major load off the team members shoulders to have someone else worry about the details.

Also, "skipping" over people is not possible in a lot of situations. The editor is missing, "lets just not edit it!" that's just silly. Yeah get someone else, who is best to get? Who is free or has the least number of projects pending? Those are things a good group leader knows. It is a misconception to think of them as the "high and mighty overlord" or whatever. Anyone in any position can get power hungry and become an asshat. They do not have to have a "leader" title.
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Old 2008-10-09, 12:58   Link #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teppei View Post
Also I don't buy the meme that "leaders" are different in "type" from other people. I think that's one of the big lies in our culture, and a pretty destructive one at that.
It's not a big lie, sorry to tell you. There are always followers and leaders. The leaders are the people who are the ones willing direct, command or guide a group or activity. Have you ever noticed an accident scene before the police or ambulance arrives? Many times people will stand around wondering what to do until a person from out of nowhere acts. They "follow" that person's lead and their instructions until someone of higher authority arrives. I've seen this happen personally. As well as been the one to act first.

Leaders are able to convince others that their way is the right or better way and have the charisma to accomplish this. They are the type of people who are able to act on their own without a push. History has proven your "thought" false.

Great leaders be they good or bad(evil): General Patton, General Eisenhower, Hitler(evil), Roosevelt, Alexander the Great, General Bradley, Pappy Boyington, Pol Pot(evil<sp?>), Genghis Kahn, Julius Ceaser, etc...
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Old 2008-10-09, 13:13   Link #79
Schneizel
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A leader who has lost interest in this world, in the present, and simply watches as the people suffers has no right to be the leader. You see, by nature, people want to be ruled by something. Ethnicity, religion, tradition, authority. The Emperor of Britan-... the fansub group leader has to sort these things out. What do staff members wish for? Subbing and drama. AniDB ratings and e-penis. Getting things done. Individuality. Responsibility. While hoping to sub anime, people still hopelessly fail to get along. Even the ones who say they have an "invisible group leader" still rely on others, don't they? We all know that drama can't be stopped, that we can't reject people's desires. Shouldn't we realize fansubbing with a system and power? Productivity is just an illusion. Drama is part of fansubber's history. To make an illusion reality, don't you need a little disciplining?
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Old 2008-10-09, 13:15   Link #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneizel View Post
A leader who has lost interest in this world, in the present, and simply watches as the people suffers has no right to be the leader. You see, by nature, people want to be ruled by something. Ethnicity, religion, tradition, authority. The Emperor of Britan-... the fansub group leader has to sort these things out. What do staff members wish for? Subbing and drama. AniDB ratings and e-penis. Getting things done. Individuality. Responsibility. While hoping to sub anime, people still hopelessly fail to get along. Even the ones who say they have an "invisible group leader" still rely on others, don't they? We all know that drama can't be stopped, that we can't reject people's desires. Shouldn't we realize fansubbing with a system and power? Productivity is just an illusion. Drama is part of fansubber's history. To make an illusion reality, don't you need a little disciplining?
Somehow, Schneizel makes so much sense when fansubbing.

In before you're posting as a character from tales of the abyss too.
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