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Old 2008-10-01, 18:42   Link #21
Kang Seung Jae
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Against, most of the time.
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Old 2008-10-01, 18:43   Link #22
james0246
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Since debate is already getting heated, before things go too far (and to emphasize a point Irenicus made), for a basic overview on abortion (both pro and con), please read:

Judith Jarvis Thomson - A Defense of Abortion
Mary Ann Warren - (nearly everything with emphasize on On the Moral and Legal Status of Abortion and the more recently "The Moral Difference Between Infanticide and Abortion: A Response to Robert Card")
Jeff McMahan - The Ethics of Killing: Problems at the Margins of Life
Peter Singer - Writings on an Ethical Life

Stephen Schwarz - The Moral Question of Abortion
Patrick Lee - Abortion and Unborn Human Life
Don Marquis - "Why Abortion is Immoral"
Jon Finnis - "The Rights and Wrongs of Abortion"
Michael Tooley - "Abortion and Infanticide" and these class notes.
Jim Stone - "Why Potentiality Matters"

...after at least these basic articles and books have been read (which I am sure were taught in any mid-level Philosophy course in any college or university throughout the world), an actual discussion concerning the legitamacy of abortion, whether moral, immoral, or neutral can be discussed.
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Old 2008-10-01, 19:10   Link #23
Vexx
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I thoroughly agree with james0246 ..... this is one of those issues where "gut feelings" just aren't the right tools or adequate. One really needs to have a complete toolkit not to end up looking foolish or worse - be ye for or be ye against or be ye somewhere tween.
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Old 2008-10-01, 19:13   Link #24
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by ApostleOfGod View Post
Ahh. The "it depends" card's been played here. I guess it depends whether a baby should live or die.
Ok, I'll take the bait.

Even if you define a clump of undifferentiated cells as a baby, there are cases for abortion. What if the mother's life is at risk? Take a gamble? Is it ok to abort if a test reveals the baby will have an untreatable genetic disorder that will cause the child to slowly and painfuly die? Tay-Sachs disease comes to mind just off the top of my head. Should there be exceptions for cases like those?

Of course many people don't share the belief in that particular definition. It should not be the government's decision whether or not a woman can have an abortion. If people think it's wrong, fine. If you want to go out and convince others it's wrong, fine. When you want to impose your morality on others, there's a problem. Just remember that others don't necessarily share that belief, and even if they do there are times that an abortion may be required.
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Old 2008-10-01, 19:35   Link #25
Daniel E.
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I know a lot of people who are against abortion, yet, not a single one of those people will be willing to adopt the child of a rape victim.

Now, if those people that are against abortion refuse to raise a kid, why are they telling rape victims to do so?

Saying "You must have and raise this kid" is not the same as actually having and raise a kid.
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Old 2008-10-01, 19:45   Link #26
Sorrow-K
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I'm a godless liberal big-city elitist, and I don't really get why women can't at least have the choice.

I think it was Clinton who said that "abortion should be safe, legal, and rare." It should be a last resort for unwanted pregnancies, and other things, particularly preventative measures such as contraception should be strongly pushed beforehand. There should also be incentives for adoption. But the option of adoption doesn't mean we should force women to go through with childbirth. It's not just a matter of the "pain" and other associated health risks of childbirth, there are a number of extenuating issues associated with all lives involved in an adoption that I don't really understand enough to go through (but I'm sure they are probably dealt with in some of the valuable resources that james0246 has posted).

I also think there's a population control issue to contend with here. The growth rate of population isn't slowing, and we're eventually going to get to a point where our global supplies of food, water, energy and accommodation are going to be stretched. We're already facing a lot of challenges associated with accommodating an ever growing population, and the impact of years of unregulated drain and processing of resources needed to maintain our population has already produced an evident impact on our environment. Sure, a more efficient use of such resources driven by improving technology is an important factor in minimizing the impact human life has on the environment, but so does the size of our population.

It just doesn't make sense to me to force a woman to go through the process of birthing an unwanted child. Obviously, though, prevention of unwanted pregnancies should happen first. To begin with, contraception should be cheap and easy to get a hold of all around the world (I'd almost go as far as saying make contraception free in the third world, not so much because of the population reasons I mentioned above, but to prevent the spread of AIDS and other STIs which are unfortunately rife throughout the world's poorer countries), and its use should be taught in schools concurrent with the importance of abstinence (educators can and should teach teenagers about the importance of saying "no" and the health risks associated with sex, but you're kidding yourself if you think teenagers aren't going to have sex after a few "don't do it" lectures). But when preventative measures fail, the choice to abort (which isn't taken lightly by any woman) should be available. But this idea of "babies having souls" is completely ludicrous. Show me the scientific literature which indicates that "babies have souls". Then I'll show you the scientific literature which demonstrates the impact our increasing population has on the environment.
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Old 2008-10-01, 19:52   Link #27
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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Moreover, if one is to apply the concept, "but they're not fully human yet," I'd say this is becoming increasingly an excuse. Why not fully human? When fully human? 3 years old? Puberty? 18? Adulthood? I personally think making everyone below 10 and above 18 as fully humans and teenagers as a separate sub-species to be a positively darling idea.

3) If weeks of pregnancy will distinguish between an "acceptable" procedure of abortion and an unacceptable one, how can one be certain again of the issues described above? Why five months not safe, four months safe? Third Tri-mester? Bah, an awkward compromise, a slogan at best.

4) Since when is pain defines what can be killed and what cannot?
To 4) there I said that only to show a point that it takes awhile for a fetus to actually develop physically into a baby. When talking to an agnostic like me, faith and religion is automatically tossed out the window as valid arguments. I don't know if a fetus has a soul nor am I going to base any decision on the "what if" of it.

I admit that what determines when a fetus is truly human is completely arbitrary, I just mentioned my viewpoint on it like the religious people mention theirs. I still stand by the idea that is the woman's decision and that's it. She doesn't have to have a child she does not want to. And if you are so adamant about the idea of having children adopted, I question your integrity as a person. Are you going out there and adopting non-aborted babies? Are these babies really okay with their parents abandoning them like that? What kind of emotional scar does this leave on a mother who had to give birth and then give up the baby?
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Old 2008-10-01, 20:50   Link #28
Vexx
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Hey, Reckoner -- Irenicus was playing devil's advocate. His actual positions are quite different (read his intro and ender carefully).
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Old 2008-10-01, 21:10   Link #29
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
To 4) there I said that only to show a point that it takes awhile for a fetus to actually develop physically into a baby. When talking to an agnostic like me, faith and religion is automatically tossed out the window as valid arguments. I don't know if a fetus has a soul nor am I going to base any decision on the "what if" of it.

I admit that what determines when a fetus is truly human is completely arbitrary, I just mentioned my viewpoint on it like the religious people mention theirs. I still stand by the idea that is the woman's decision and that's it. She doesn't have to have a child she does not want to. And if you are so adamant about the idea of having children adopted, I question your integrity as a person. Are you going out there and adopting non-aborted babies? Are these babies really okay with their parents abandoning them like that? What kind of emotional scar does this leave on a mother who had to give birth and then give up the baby?
Don't bring up the "emotional scarring" thing... you don't know what they feel. At best, it is a case-by-case basis of reasoning if you're talking about sob stories or somesuch.

There is nothing wrong with adoption. I don't kow why this would be an issue. I myself was adopted at 5 months old, and i could not be happier about it. If I may say so, for the most part adoption is a very good thing. Being put up for adoption would certainly be better than being killed before you even took your first breath.

I realize with every abortion comes the argument of "if harmful to the mother". Well, in most developed countries, doctors inform their patients of risks associated with pregnancy, depending upon their current state of health, taking into account various conditions that they might have. That's what doctors do. Now, from that point out, keep in mind that it is the woman's choice to (actively) become pregnant or not. If the initial decision is made, it had better be carried through. Yes, life-threatening complications sometimes arise, in which case you are simply asking the question, "Whose life is more important?" An easy question to ask, a near-impossible question to answer. This is very much up to the individual, so I'm not going to bother to try to make a sweeping generalization that will just make people mad at me.

I also know that in cases of rape, many choose to abort. I can understand the victims' feelings, but I think that the baby in many ways can also be considered a victim. I suppose some people might not care about that at all. Again, I claim to hold no authority on such a touchy subject, especially since I'm not a female, but I think it bears some consideration.
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Old 2008-10-01, 21:23   Link #30
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Oddly, I seem to get the impression that the tension is rising...fast.

Again, keep in mind, these are all about opinions of whether or not abortion is right or wrong in OUR eyes. There is no black in white in this subject, though we try to get close. In either case, let's respect each others' opinions, shall we?

Since I'm against the idea of abortion, the only time I'm somewhat (but barely) of making a decision of aborting a child/baby/living being/whatever you want to call them is when the lives of both the mother and child are on the line. But, since I'm for the life of the child, I tend to think, "This child is the next generation while the mother is the generation before it. The child is our future." which causes me to lean in favor for the child's life more. That and I also see "living being" as the moment there is a beating heart or something to that degree. After all, isn't that how we're pronounced dead? Once our heart no longer beats and brings life to us?

Again, this is only my take on things.
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Old 2008-10-01, 21:31   Link #31
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pssssst

The O.P. must be trying to get us to write his/her term paper
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Old 2008-10-01, 21:39   Link #32
TigerII
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My cousin was raped and almost killed and in the process became pregnant four years ago. She was sixteen and her parents refused an abortion. I was the only one she ever talked to. She told me that everyday when she would look at herself, she would see a disgusting human being who should have died. She said that seeing her stomach reminded her of the day, everyday. She tried to kill herself twice during the pregnancy due to trauma.

When the time to give birth came, it went okay for the first eighteen hours, then things got worse. She developed a pulmonary embolism and seventeen hours into the birthing process, she died, along with the baby.

To say a woman doesn't go through trauma is completely ignorant. After this, I worked in a rape and trauma center for a year and a half. Not all, but quite a few of the women I met WERE traumatized by the baby, and looking at their selves reminded that of the raping. Most were depressed, and many attempted suicide.

If a woman wants to keep the baby fine, but to force a woman to go through the trauma, plus the hazards of a child birth is against HER human rights. In this situation, the human rights of the conscious person who is apart of a society should come before the rights of a group of cells. Most rape victims will abort within the first five weeks before the heart starts to beat.

Anyways, I was just giving the pro-choice side of the debate. Like I said, if two teens fuck up, they should go through with the process up to adoption. If it is a rape case, it should be up to the woman who will have to deal with the next nine months.
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Old 2008-10-01, 21:44   Link #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue skies View Post
It's wrong even if you're raped?

While using birth control and condoms should be common sense, those options unfortunately don't occur to some people. Not only that but frankly, you don't always think straight in certain situations. It's a delicate subject and I don't usually voice my opinion on it, but I've always felt that women should have the option of abortion. If a woman makes the decision to terminate a pregnancy, it's no one's business but her own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The real answer is "it depends" but few people like to hear that.
I exactly what blue and vexx said. It all depends on the situation.

---But for me, your body, your right. Now one else can say about thing about it. Even if it means that you're killing a life.
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Old 2008-10-01, 21:52   Link #34
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I think it's perfectly acceptable If I didn't want a kid to ruin my life i'f oust that kid if I was a woman. I had a friend who wanted to use the hanger "trick" to get rid of her kid but she went ahead and had the kid.
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Old 2008-10-01, 21:54   Link #35
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Hey, Reckoner -- Irenicus was playing devil's advocate. His actual positions are quite different (read his intro and ender carefully).
This is why the English language sucks sometimes . Yeah I understood that, I was more responding to people with those views and such... I would actually be quite stunned if Irenicus held those views after reading his opinions in posts for many months.
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Old 2008-10-01, 22:03   Link #36
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Considering this is a debate that will probably never end due to all the peoples different opinions of it. Either it be because of religion or just self belief's. I mean when debating this people will bring up like what if the person got raped, or what if the mom will die if she doesn't abort.

Mainly in my opinion is that everyone has a choice, so it be rather abortion or not its solely up to the person to decide. Back in LA I knew someone who got raped and still decided to keep the baby because of her beliefs. There are also other people who just get abortion because they know its the right choice at their point in life. "its up to the person"
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Old 2008-10-01, 22:03   Link #37
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Originally Posted by Aoie_Emesai View Post
I exactly what blue and vexx said. It all depends on the situation.

---But for me, your body, your right. Now one else can say about thing about it. Even if it means that you're killing a life.
I suppose that's true... but the person has to admit that they are in fact taking a life. Now persoanlly I could never condone this, but obviously it happens. What really bothers me is when people start making excuses and justifying abortion as "not really killing a human"...that is what really infuriates me.
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Old 2008-10-01, 22:14   Link #38
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity View Post
I suppose that's true... but the person has to admit that they are in fact taking a life. Now persoanlly I could never condone this, but obviously it happens. What really bothers me is when people start making excuses and justifying abortion as "not really killing a human"...that is what really infuriates me.
Do you not take life when you kill a plant or squish an ant?
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Old 2008-10-01, 22:29   Link #39
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
pssssst

The O.P. must be trying to get us to write his/her term paper
Well abortion isn't a topic that comes up a lot, but I'm willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt and assume this isn'y an attempt to get out of doing a paper himself. Though it's also not a topic that usually comes up in casual conversation.
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Old 2008-10-01, 23:13   Link #40
Cherudim Arche
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I don't really consider religion or beliefs for me. When presented, I think it depends entirely on the situation. I don't care how it swing from the mother or the fetus/baby. That also includes when it is getting developed.

I am glad this isn't a hot button topic for me.
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