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Old 2008-10-02, 02:03   Link #61
Solace
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I'll bite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemstar View Post
For the people that think abortion is correct.
Sure, shoot.

Quote:
Imagine if you were that baby that was being aborted how would you feel about that.
You were a baby once. How did it feel to be born?

Quote:
How is destroying that baby's life different from killing someone?
Answer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Homicide is not always an illegal act.
ZOMG I used Wiki for law reference. Harvey Birdman I'm coming for your job.

Quote:
Wouldn't that person be sent to jail?
Yes. But only because we don't want to have to worry that we'll be next.

Quote:
Isn't it a law to not kill and even a commandment?
Yes. Laws created by humans who legalize certain types of killing, but not others. A God noted for his swift and terrible vengeance.

Thou shalt not kill - unless there's a point to it. We don't want those "senseless deaths". The rest are cool though.

Quote:
The baby does not even have a choice in the matter.
Not really. The baby is coming out one way or another. Of course, the person who should have a choice, the mother, is brushed aside for the unspoken voice of the baby in the argument of Pro-Life.

Quote:
How can you make that choice for the baby.
How can you?


Quote:
Don't you feel sorry for taking a life or for the baby?
I feel sorry for all of the children who are born unwanted, that will never be adopted, growing up into dangerous miserable people because the system was too busy caring if they should live and not caring about making the world a better place for them to live in.

Quote:
Or do you even feel sorry for the people who feel sorry for the baby that could have grown into a respectable person who could have friendships, have a good time make a kool joke etc =(
Or the baby could grow up to become the destroyer of the universe. Flip a coin.

I may sound cold and heartless in these replies but it's to make a point. I don't presume to be a master of life or death, I don't presume to make others conform to my ideals of right or wrong. I prefer to leave the choice of abortion to the only person that should make that decision - the woman who is pregnant.

That isn't to say that I feel that all abortions are equal. Late term abortions, just wrong. Pregnancies where the woman cannot have a say (mentally ill, for instance), that's debatable. Victims of rape and incest should always have a choice. Parents who know the child will be born with defects should always have a choice.

But the point is, it's a choice. That's the crux of the argument on both sides. Pro-life wants the choice to be removed, Pro-choice is self explanatory. You can say that Pro-choice hurts the baby, but Pro-life hurts the mother. But either way, someone is getting hurt, and when the choice is gridlocked, you should leave it open to belief. Do you want your child? Don't have an abortion. Don't want the child? Abortion is one choice, but consider your options first. Presuming of course, that the mothers are in sound mind and body and able to make their own decisions.

You can't please everyone all of the time....for now.
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Old 2008-10-02, 02:06   Link #62
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ermes Marana View Post
The most confusing thing to me is why this is a religious issue.

The bible never says abortion is wrong.

Quite the opposite. The bible says that if you attack a pregnant woman and kill the fetus, then you are not guilty of taking a life, and you only need to pay a fine.

However if you kill the mother, you get the death penalty. "A life for a life."

Personally, even though the bible is pro-abortion, I think it is wrong after a certain amount of development. It is hard to decide the exact amount of development, and I am not a biologist, so I won't try.
I cannot emphasize this point enough,Abortion is not considered "bad" in the Bible. Exodus 21:22-25 (which occurs after the prouncement of the Ten Comandments): "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow/he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him/and he shall pay as the judges determine./And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth . . ."

So, the Bible places no emphasize on a fetus outside of a fine.

To extend the quotes further, life is only established as the "breath" of God (as evidienced by Genesis), and is only known to exist after the child exits the womb.

The Bible does not condemn abortion, but even if it did, the majority of the world lives under a secular government, and not a theocracy, so religion has not basis for the discussion of the legality of abortion.

So, let's not focus on Religion in regards to a discussion concerning Abortion, considering the fact that most religions do not have actual rules dealing with abortion.

Last edited by james0246; 2008-10-02 at 02:16.
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Old 2008-10-02, 02:15   Link #63
Mystique
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Wow... nothing like waking up and seeing a good majority of the male general chat Asuki members get into long ass debates about abortion, great way to start the day. O.o

I'm gonna sit on the fence with this one, simply cause i'm gonna get emotionally involved without question (once you've seen what a 5 month (20 weeks) feotus looks like dead, it's kinda hard as a woman to be detached. 10 fingers, 10 toes, all facial features, some hair, genitalia defined (so u can tell if its a boy/girl), by 5 months it's all there.
From some of the answers I've read here, it may help if you brush up on all stages of pregnancy month by month before answering...)

Also rape and abortion (in addition to my faith and morals) are only things i'm forced to think about as a woman since hitting age 12/13, whether from a religious standpoint, or a safety standpoint, or a health stand point, it's not an easy choice to make.
(Well it shouldn't be, some women use it as a method of contreception cause they're too irresponsible to have safe sex or use other forms of contreception to prevent it in the first place)
That much disgusts me to hell, I swear they should have their tubes tied. -.-

Quote:
There are far too many ways to analyze the issue, like philosophically, humanistically, from a biological, moral, religious, societal view, etc.
Yep yep, its not a clear cut case, depends on the woman involved and the situation she's in and how much power she even has over the matter.
One of best friends, shes in mid 20's, docs told her mum to abort her for fear of health safety issues for her mother, mother didn't listen, gave birth, she's still alive and has a younger sister.
If her mother listened, she wouldn't be here today, i'd not have known her, etc etc.
There are too many ways to see this.

Thinking outside of the West, abortion not only comes in form of doctors and hospitals, many asian and african countries sometimes take herbs that force a miscarriage (this is traumatic like you can't believe) cause the option of bringing the child into the world isn't feasible via their social status or from an illicit affair or even their job.
(Yes, I've kinda have researched into the asian prostitution industry before, wanted to know what women are forced to do if accidently pregnant.)

There are so so so many varibles, in some places, its not even the choice of the woman, but of the man. *shrug*
Eitherway, to keep on a general level where most peeps can relate to (human laws!)
UK's stance on it is this, the MP's had a re-look at all laws regarding human life in May and this was the latest decision.
MP's reject lessening abortion limit
No offence to the guys here, but it does annoy me to see some of the proposals for the limit to be reduced (from women) rejected by a bunch of stuffy ass old men who'd probably have heart attacks if they saw a woman go into labour in front of them. The against lowering lot seemed to prefer to rely on 'medical science' only to jutisfy their claims, but it seemed that if most had the choice, they wouldn't even have voted anyways, too touchy a subject, lol.
Results where:
233 to reduce.
304 to leave it at 24 weeks.
The votes were received from a mix of Tories, Labs, Lim Dem's and a few other parties too.

The rest of the embryology and abortion votes links are on the right side of the website, knock yourself out.
(I guess I'm curious to see how other countries politicans feel about it... aside from US, there's this mass Red vs Blue stance on it that feels very unrealistic other there) :\

*jumps to sit on fence*
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Last edited by Mystique; 2008-10-02 at 02:38.
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Old 2008-10-02, 02:23   Link #64
sang26
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wrong

in the first place..
you shouldnt do things just for pleasure..
it's a sin...
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Old 2008-10-02, 02:32   Link #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sang26 View Post
in the first place..
you shouldnt do things just for pleasure..
it's a sin...
Still counting the amount of time religion is brought into this debate.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5...11 is what I counted so far.
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Old 2008-10-02, 02:38   Link #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sang26 View Post
in the first place..
you shouldnt do things just for pleasure..
it's a sin...
I'm a godless liberal big-city elitist and a scientist to boot. My entire life is one prolonged, continuous sin.
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Old 2008-10-02, 02:41   Link #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity View Post
I hate to rain on your parade, but I don't think this is even within the realm of feasable technology. Are you saying grow the baby in a tank? Not that this would necessarily be a bad thing if the circumstances were dire enough, but I doubt it's practical (or even possible), regardless of funding.
It is a plausible idea to think that there are currently scientists working on that (I don't know maybe they can even do that right now, but it might be a quite expensive process, with not so low risks). Forgetting the fact that this process is every rich man's and his wife's wish, or a process to make it easier for cloning humans (oops, mentioned a point that may agitate the pro-lifers), it is at the least a problem solving approach. Quite honestly, I got bored of the abortion discussion, hence the quicker you can reach a solution, the better it is for us, the outsiders (until we meet that end ourselves).
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Old 2008-10-02, 02:49   Link #68
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Well, Solace said pretty much what I could have said on this matter (only better phrased)
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Old 2008-10-02, 02:55   Link #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aoie_Emesai View Post
Still counting the amount of time religion is brought into this debate.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5...11 is what I counted so far.
Still, that also counts as opinion, be it personal, or God's.
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Old 2008-10-02, 04:39   Link #70
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I think only the person who is having the baby can say whether it is right or wrong. Its like amputating a part of themself so they should have the right to choose.

Anyway, i think it is better to abort if there is no intention to care for the child when he is born.
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Old 2008-10-02, 05:59   Link #71
solomon
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i second Mystiques opionion and observation;

The slight bewilderment at mainly males chatting on abortion.

You can call me whatever you like but I am a 20 year old college male, with no designs on children (at least not until i can actually support them) so I officially have no real stance on it, I always saw that more of something to be left up to females scince they birth children not males.
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Old 2008-10-02, 06:18   Link #72
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The bible also says that its better a baby not be born then to live a evil life, although they said it a bit different and it sounded more old school, I think its wrong though your still taking a life that baby would grown up and become a normal human like you or me its wrong very very wrong
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Old 2008-10-02, 06:39   Link #73
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All of the following is meant to simply present my views. I have no intention of forcing them upon anyone else, like a lot of people seem to believe that that is what we "Conservative Christians" do.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I may sound cold and heartless in these replies but it's to make a point. I don't presume to be a master of life or death, I don't presume to make others conform to my ideals of right or wrong. I prefer to leave the choice of abortion to the only person that should make that decision - the woman who is pregnant.
As Pro-Life as I am, I have to agree. It is the woman's decision, not mine, nor yours, nor that of anyone else.

Quote:
That isn't to say that I feel that all abortions are equal. Late term abortions, just wrong. Pregnancies where the woman cannot have a say (mentally ill, for instance), that's debatable. Victims of rape and incest should always have a choice. Parents who know the child will be born with defects should always have a choice.
Just to note, there is a way to ensure that a pregnancy does not occur within about twenty four hours of rape. In fact, almost every modern hospital will be able to offer the treatment. It's an cocktail of hormones (namely estrogen) that will cause the woman in question to arrive at her period early and thus be rid of the egg prior to any sperm-egg contact (since most of the time fertilization occurs within twenty four hours after sex). By technicality, it isn't even killing anything since the egg isn't even fertilized yet (in most cases).


Quote:
But the point is, it's a choice. That's the crux of the argument on both sides. Pro-life wants the choice to be removed, Pro-choice is self explanatory. You can say that Pro-choice hurts the baby, but Pro-life hurts the mother. But either way, someone is getting hurt, and when the choice is gridlocked, you should leave it open to belief. Do you want your child? Don't have an abortion. Don't want the child? Abortion is one choice, but consider your options first. Presuming of course, that the mothers are in sound mind and body and able to make their own decisions.
Abortion hurts the woman at an abnormally high rate--a rate higher than those of dying due to giving birth, if I am not mistaken. It is very very often that the woman is left infertile or scarred in some other manner in the lower reproductive organs. There can also be other side affects such as PID (Pelvic Inflammatory Disease), Post Abortion guilt, and I've even heard of Breast Cancer (though I haven't really looked into that one very much).

Therefore, in both cases the woman is hurt regardless. You cannot justify abortion by saying it has next to no harmful affect toward the woman.


Quote:
You can't please everyone all of the time....for now.
Sucks eh?


Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I cannot emphasize this point enough,Abortion is not considered "bad" in the Bible. Exodus 21:22-25 (which occurs after the prouncement of the Ten Comandments): "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow/he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him/and he shall pay as the judges determine./And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth . . ."

So, the Bible places no emphasize on a fetus outside of a fine.

To extend the quotes further, life is only established as the "breath" of God (as evidienced by Genesis), and is only known to exist after the child exits the womb.

The Bible does not condemn abortion, but even if it did, the majority of the world lives under a secular government, and not a theocracy, so religion has not basis for the discussion of the legality of abortion.

So, let's not focus on Religion in regards to a discussion concerning Abortion, considering the fact that most religions do not have actual rules dealing with abortion.
1. On the "Eye for an Eye" principle, Jesus Christ says in Matthew 5:38-5:39 this: "38 ‘You have heard that it was said, “An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.” 39But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also;".

2. Most of the world may be secular, aye, but most of the world is also democratic. Why do I bring this up? Because in a democracy, the people vote and decide. Are the people all secular? No. Myself included, there are still a good number of religious people in the world and in these so-proud democratic countries. So what's my point? Every political decision in these "secular countries" is still influenced by religion as is every law passed.

3. The Bible says, in the passage you cite, that "her fruit depart from her". That does not mean abortion is acceptable. What do a good deal of women do with unwanted children? Put them up for adoption (or whatever the equivalent thereof would be in their time period/age/location).

4. Initial creation =/= following offspring. The initial humans were formed out of dirt and water--essentially being a statue--and only received life following God breathing into it.

5. Why do most religions not have laws banning abortion? Because abortion is a modern concept. Every one of the major world religions had established its laws and the like by the year 700 AD, with Islam being the last.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aoie_Emesai View Post
Still counting the amount of time religion is brought into this debate.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5...11 is what I counted so far.
12.



Again, believe what you will. This is just where I stand.
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Old 2008-10-02, 07:23   Link #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zSolaris View Post
All of the following is meant to simply present my views. I have no intention of forcing them upon anyone else, like a lot of people seem to believe that that is what we "Conservative Christians" do.
Congratulations. You get a cookie.*

Quote:
As Pro-Life as I am, I have to agree. It is the woman's decision, not mine, nor yours, nor that of anyone else.
I'd give you two cookies, just for that. But I can't.

Quote:
Just to note, there is a way to ensure that a pregnancy does not occur within about twenty four hours of rape. In fact, almost every modern hospital will be able to offer the treatment. It's an cocktail of hormones (namely estrogen) that will cause the woman in question to arrive at her period early and thus be rid of the egg prior to any sperm-egg contact (since most of the time fertilization occurs within twenty four hours after sex). By technicality, it isn't even killing anything since the egg isn't even fertilized yet (in most cases).
Yup I was aware of that. There are some cases where it is too late however and the 24 hours has passed. Rare, but they happen.


Quote:
Abortion hurts the woman at an abnormally high rate--a rate higher than those of dying due to giving birth, if I am not mistaken. It is very very often that the woman is left infertile or scarred in some other manner in the lower reproductive organs. There can also be other side affects such as PID (Pelvic Inflammatory Disease), Post Abortion guilt, and I've even heard of Breast Cancer (though I haven't really looked into that one very much).
Breast Cancer? That's a new one to me. I've heard of the others. Abortions can do damage, and the procedure isn't exactly pleasant. And the risks are higher, I won't disagree there either.

So yes, damage to both. Forgive me for neglecting to mention it, the omission was my forgetfulness and not an intention of being misleading.

Quote:
Therefore, in both cases the woman is hurt regardless. You cannot justify abortion by saying it has next to no harmful affect toward the woman.
I don't. My comment of "Pro-life hurts the mother" was intended to point out that forcing a woman to term who does not want to have the child carries difficult moral dilemmas just as "Pro-choice hurts the baby" does.

The "lesser of two evils" moral decision still leaves you with a bad choice.

Quote:
Sucks eh?
Indeed.
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Old 2008-10-02, 08:48   Link #75
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sigh, logically thinking, in certain cases abortion are ok
emotionally, they are all wrong
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Old 2008-10-02, 10:22   Link #76
Daniel E.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zSolaris
Just to note, there is a way to ensure that a pregnancy does not occur within about twenty four hours of rape. In fact, almost every modern hospital will be able to offer the treatment. It's an cocktail of hormones (namely estrogen) that will cause the woman in question to arrive at her period early and thus be rid of the egg prior to any sperm-egg contact (since most of the time fertilization occurs within twenty four hours after sex). By technicality, it isn't even killing anything since the egg isn't even fertilized yet (in most cases).
Problem here is that many rape victims are also the subject of treats and what not.

"listen up bitch, a word of this to anyone and you are dead meat"

The poor soul is scared to death, doesn't say a word to anyone in weeks/months and then.......poof! Her family starts to notice a little too late. >_<!
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Old 2008-10-02, 11:45   Link #77
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This debate is absolutely pointless. Since the answer depends crucially on one's individual definition of "person" or "human being". A three months old fetus doesn't fulfill the necessary prerequisites in my book. And everything else follows from here.

I just sometimes wish the lives of already born humans would find equally dedicated defenders, for example in the health or defense ministries.
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Old 2008-10-02, 12:02   Link #78
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^ I agree. Everything that can be said about this topic has already been said and explored in thousands of forums out there.

I'm pro-choice. Google that to find the reasons why I take that position.
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Old 2008-10-02, 13:41   Link #79
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Well, it's interesting to see a theme of this

Actually in my country, the abortation is a big polemic because it was just legalisated

Now, personally I should say no, raped or not, the baby is inocent at the end

But then I think, bring a poor creature to a world in wich noone is ginna love it, in wich he/ she will be probably send to an orphan, or to stay in a home, in wich his/ her mother will hate him/her and it will grow without love... that sounds even more cruel
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Old 2008-10-02, 14:19   Link #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zSolaris View Post
5. Why do most religions not have laws banning abortion? Because abortion is a modern concept. Every one of the major world religions had established its laws and the like by the year 700 AD, with Islam being the last.
Sadly (but grimly necessary) ... most ancient civilizations handled unwanted births by simply abandoning the babies after birth. The Greeks even had a place to leave them .... others looking for a child could go rescue one but most simply died.

I seem to recall that the Catholic Church didn't consider the baby "alive" (acceptable for baptism) until 7 days had passed. Too many of them didn't make it anyway.
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