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Old 2008-10-02, 14:49   Link #81
OtseisRagnarok
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Sadly (but grimly necessary) ... most ancient civilizations handled unwanted births by simply abandoning the babies after birth. The Greeks even had a place to leave them .... others looking for a child could go rescue one but most simply died.

I seem to recall that the Catholic Church didn't consider the baby "alive" (acceptable for baptism) until 7 days had passed. Too many of them didn't make it anyway.
Lol! I can't help but laugh at that one... When babies might not make it, they weren't considered alive, now that we can control it, they're alive from conception!
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Old 2008-10-02, 15:53   Link #82
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Well... they used different terms and emphasis but that was the practical upshot.

The result was they spent the next 1000 years arguing over what happens to a baby's "soul" if it checks out prior to baptism ("newborn Limbo").

Don't want to derail the discussion into religious analysis though....
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Old 2008-10-02, 16:20   Link #83
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Well... they used different terms and emphasis but that was the practical upshot.

The result was they spent the next 1000 years arguing over what happens to a baby's "soul" if it checks out prior to baptism ("newborn Limbo").

Don't want to derail the discussion into religious analysis though....
But isn't religion the whole cause of this debate? Take God out of the equation, and abortion is more or less okay, right?
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Old 2008-10-02, 16:26   Link #84
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Originally Posted by Daniel E. View Post
Problem here is that many rape victims are also the subject of treats and what not.

"listen up bitch, a word of this to anyone and you are dead meat"

The poor soul is scared to death, doesn't say a word to anyone in weeks/months and then.......poof! Her family starts to notice a little too late. >_<!
Mm...true. However, that's what government programs to make people understand that not saying anything is worse for them are around.


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Breast Cancer? That's a new one to me. I've heard of the others. Abortions can do damage, and the procedure isn't exactly pleasant. And the risks are higher, I won't disagree there either.

So yes, damage to both. Forgive me for neglecting to mention it, the omission was my forgetfulness and not an intention of being misleading.
Yeah...I don't know if that one is valid or not but I heard about it.

And I didn't mean to attack you on it, just that most Pro-Choice people run around shouting on the top of their lungs that Abortion is all but pain free.

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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Sadly (but grimly necessary) ... most ancient civilizations handled unwanted births by simply abandoning the babies after birth. The Greeks even had a place to leave them .... others looking for a child could go rescue one but most simply died.

I seem to recall that the Catholic Church didn't consider the baby "alive" (acceptable for baptism) until 7 days had passed. Too many of them didn't make it anyway.
Could any Catholic step in an verify/deny? Being a Protestant, I have very little understanding on how Catholics work.


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Originally Posted by OtseisRagnarok View Post
But isn't religion the whole cause of this debate? Take God out of the equation, and abortion is more or less okay, right?
Not in my book. Sure, I am religious and all. But I am Pro-Life because of what my moral beliefs and not because of religion.
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Old 2008-10-02, 16:34   Link #85
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Originally Posted by OtseisRagnarok View Post
But isn't religion the whole cause of this debate? Take God out of the equation, and abortion is more or less okay, right?
Well it all depends on a persons morals and religion is only one of many factors. In my eyes morals are defined by society, philosophy, religion, or individual conscience. Thus plenty of reasons besides religion driving ones beliefs.
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Old 2008-10-02, 16:36   Link #86
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Originally Posted by zSolaris View Post
Not in my book. Sure, I am religious and all. But I am Pro-Life because of what my moral beliefs and not because of religion.
Not that I feel like nitpicking, but what's the difference? Aren't morals imposed by religious belief?
As to my beliefs on abortion as an institution: Isn't it better for a child to have not existed than for it to exist in misery? If you can't love your child, then wouldn't it be better if said child were never brought into this world?
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Old 2008-10-02, 16:41   Link #87
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Originally Posted by OtseisRagnarok View Post
Not that I feel like nitpicking, but what's the difference? Aren't morals imposed by religious belief?
As to my beliefs on abortion as an institution: Isn't it better for a child to have not existed than for it to exist in misery? If you can't love your child, then wouldn't it be better if said child were never brought into this world?
As I stated above morals can also be imposed by society, philosophy, or individual conscience.
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Old 2008-10-02, 16:41   Link #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtseisRagnarok View Post
But isn't religion the whole cause of this debate? Take God out of the equation, and abortion is more or less okay, right?
Not necessarily... there are valid secular ethical reasons for being against abortion (back to "defining what is human" stuff in philosophy). In one sense, religion is just another rationalization but with different axioms than a secular rationalization.

edit: whoops... conversation is running faster than I could post
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Old 2008-10-02, 16:45   Link #89
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Not necessarily... there are valid secular ethical reasons for being against abortion (back to "defining what is human" stuff in philosophy). In one sense, religion is just another rationalization but with different axioms than a secular rationalization.
I suppose, but in certain cases, abortion is okay to secularists, but it is almost never okay by a religious standpoint.
I understand how some people want to keep fetuses alive, but honestly, it's the parent's choice. More mother than father, of course, but both should have some say. If the mother doesn't want to give birth, she should be able to have some options. The child has yet to experience life, so is it really so wrong to deprive it?
If you have a television you never use, and it's stolen, is it really such a major blow to you?
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Old 2008-10-02, 17:03   Link #90
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Well the big moral question that lingers around abortion is wether or not it's murder.

My personal view on this is No. Absolutely not.

It's not murder if it's not an independent person. One might argue then that it's not murder to end the life of any child before she/he reaches consciousness, but we don't know how long after birth personhood arrives for each new child. So it's completely logical to use their independence as the dividing line for when full rights are given to a new human being.

Using independence also solves the problem of dealing with premature babies. Although a preemie is obviously still only a potential person, by virtue of its independence from the mother, we give it the full rights of a conscious person. This saves us from setting some other arbitrary date of when we consider a new human being a full person. Older cultures used to set it at two years of age, or even older. Modern religious cultures want to set it at conception, which is simply wishful thinking on their part. A single-cell zygote is no more a person than a human hair follicle.
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Old 2008-10-02, 17:11   Link #91
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Originally Posted by OtseisRagnarok View Post
Not that I feel like nitpicking, but what's the difference? Aren't morals imposed by religious belief?
As to my beliefs on abortion as an institution: Isn't it better for a child to have not existed than for it to exist in misery? If you can't love your child, then wouldn't it be better if said child were never brought into this world?

Do you have morals and principles, things that you would stand up for and live to protect? Or is there no purpose in the idea of morals and let chaos run loose in the minds of humanity?

And if you think killing the baby because you fear "misery" in it's life, are you thereby acknowledging "mercy killing" also known as Euthanasia? I personally think there are better solutions, than killing the baby like it's never happened.

An example I can just bring forth, sorry if the repeat bothers some of you:

Pam Stenzel. The result of a 15 year old raped girl conceiving. I invite anyone to read / see some of the things she does. Now of course not everyone turns out to who she is, but she's tough, and she's out there fighting. She doesn't even know her biological father. Her biological father probably doesn't care either, or wouldn't know.

From bad, there are good results. No matter how far you're dug down. Something will eventually come back. But I'll have to agree with you. From a religious point of view, I can say that if a baby's had a miserable life all throughout and struggled to simply survive everyday, there is a place for that baby in the afterlife. However, without religion, it really is like as if nothing happened. The abortionist makes a few thousand, the woman is supposedly free from everything like it's never happened.. Hear the accounts of some of those who've had abortion. Not everyone's satisfied with the outcome.

A religious belief is part of someone, because it's so in depth. And I will go on to say that those who don't have one, don't understand the depths of the conscience it reaches to because, well, like I've said, it's so in depth and personal. It's something that's not something people look to prove scientifically; after all, I think everyone here can agree with me when I say that if there Is an omnipotent and omniscient God, or multiple Gods or what you believe in, God or the Deities would easily defy human science, human logic, and human idealism. So no, I wouldn't say religion is the foundation of all morals - but it sure does bring in some good ones.

But this is the funny thing. I've debated with atheists, Jehovah witnesses, agnosts, whatever. Not something I'm necessarily all proud of - took me the hard way to understand that you need to act to be heard, before you speak. But you can obviously imagine that topics as abortion is usually hot in such places. Yes, that means it does apply to certain principles which come with religion. But we shouldn't generalize the term so much; keep in mind, that things like Scientology is a religion. I'm not saying that to offend, but it's a good example of how the term "religion" covers such a variety of aspects. Heck, at this point, I think people can even say "Atheism" is a religion in some ways.

But back to my topic. The funny thing is, I feel that the general populace of Pro Lifers and Pro Choicers both find it incumbent on them to follow their choice. To be fairly honest, I am still exposed to new ideas and different perspectives, and I take this in. Just by reading this thread, I've already begun to question myself again, with all the various different scenarios, and what would be the best option following each scenario. But obviously, I'm more of a life patriot than not, so Pro Life would be an appropriate title for me. What I dislike however, is that once a person takes their stance, it's sometimes very difficult to change them. In the generic look of abortion, there really are only two options - pro life or pro choice. If you go in depth to look at different scenarios, experience first hand, and whatnot, then a more fair basis could be concluded - but this is not always the case.

It's kind of like the topic of religion. For example, I've asked a good friend of mine, who's much older than me, why he is a Catholic. Very vague question, but nevertheless, I got an answer back - "Well, I would say because I was born into it." Just think of all the possibilities of a different life, different religion, background, home, environment, and much more. This possible diversity is eliminated from early exposure - same thing with abortion. You know, if I was presented to a pro choice argument at first, and was convinced by others that it was right, who knows, I might have disregarded the morality of valuing what I consider to be life, and be a pro choice right now. What am I trying to say here.. Everyone, be open to different ideas. After all, if we really question everything, there isn't much of a certainty in this world that we can agree to - but only the answers that we can seek and find by ourselves. I find certain religions to be a primary tool in investigating what I really am, what life is, and what a baby is. I guess that's why we all do the things we do, even if we don't know it.

So in the case of killing the baby "to prevent it from suffering from a miserable life". I can think of some good examples of individuals who would normally be deemed outkasts of society, yet are making a change in this world today. Can't you? And upon looking into these individuals, can we really justify that the baby would have a horrible life, when there are some of those who wishes for a child, but can't create life? Truly I tell you, as long as we really want it to be, there will always be a place for that baby, somewhere. That's why I don't accept abortion.

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If you have a television you never use, and it's stolen, is it really such a major blow to you?
I'd rather give it away when I have the chance. But that's just me wanting to be generous I guess, or am I wrong? I hope I'm wrong..
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Old 2008-10-02, 17:21   Link #92
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Originally Posted by ApostleOfGod View Post
But back to my topic. The funny thing is, I feel that the general populace of Pro Lifers and Pro Choicers both find it incumbent on them to follow their choice. To be fairly honest, I am still exposed to new ideas and different perspectives, and I take this in. Just by reading this thread, I've already begun to question myself again, with all the various different scenarios, and what would be the best option following each scenario. But obviously, I'm more of a life patriot than not, so Pro Life would be an appropriate title for me. What I dislike however, is that once a person takes their stance, it's sometimes very difficult to change them. In the generic look of abortion, there really are only two options - pro life or pro choice. If you go in depth to look at different scenarios, experience first hand, and whatnot, then a more fair basis could be concluded - but this is not always the case.
Well, I have to argue for pro choice for one very important reason: It's pro-choice. It gives people options. I'm not saying you have to approve of abortions, I'm saying that pro-lifers are infringing upon the woman's rights. She should be allowd to choose what she wants going into and out of her body.
The child is by all means legally a minor, and therefore has relatively no rights. The woman is an adult and has full citizenship rights.
But I've digressed. The point is that pro-choice makes more sense, because it allows everyone to be happy. The pro-lifers can have all the babies they want, whereas the abortionists can kill all the fetuses they want.
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Old 2008-10-02, 17:44   Link #93
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common people saying its pro choice, i think its wrong what ever way u look at it people should not be ignorant. That human is going to one day become a person like everyone else why should they die ?

I do not think its fair for a baby to die just because the mother was stupid enough to go and have sex un protected....

How would you feel if your mother aborted you ? you would not get the chance to watch all the cool animes

Aborting a baby is evil down to the root anyone who takes a life should be ashamed its sick and disgusting dont think so ? watch a video.... .i think opinions will change. People just say its pro choice....thats ignorant that little baby is not getting his own pro choice just because some slut does not wanna carry her child.
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Old 2008-10-02, 17:49   Link #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtseisRagnarok View Post
Not that I feel like nitpicking, but what's the difference? Aren't morals imposed by religious belief?
As to my beliefs on abortion as an institution: Isn't it better for a child to have not existed than for it to exist in misery? If you can't love your child, then wouldn't it be better if said child were never brought into this world?
Sir, are you then implying that those who lack a religion have no morals? Because, if all morals are "imposed by religious belief" as you suggest, then where would those who lack a designated religion find their morals from?

Aye, Religion DOES play a role in morals. I would be lying if I said that I do not derive a lot of my own from the Christian faith. However, Religion is not the ONLY player in moral development. Some draw it from philosophy, some from their life experiences and gut feelings, and others from elsewhere.


Just my two cents.
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Old 2008-10-02, 17:53   Link #95
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I think it's selfish to think that once you do not want the baby then you should discard of it. What is wrong with that way of thinking ? The baby is a living thing, human being! It is not trash. Sometimes you just have to go with your heart. And all those who give theories supporting abortion should think about the potential the baby can have and also the potential in life. Be more optimistic rather than pessimistic.
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Old 2008-10-02, 17:54   Link #96
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Thumbs down

It does not even matter the only thing important to understand is YOUR KILLING A HUMAN.... is that rite or wrong ???????

to top that off that HUMAN has no say in the matter, That baby could be a basketball superstar or a singer or a hockey player or a cartoonist its not fair that person would not have life if aborted.....
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Old 2008-10-02, 17:55   Link #97
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How would you feel if your mother aborted you ? you would not get the chance to watch all the cool animes
Real talk right there.
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Old 2008-10-02, 18:00   Link #98
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Originally Posted by Kiggz View Post
It does not even matter the only thing important to understand is YOUR KILLING A HUMAN.... is that rite or wrong ???????

to top that off that HUMAN has no say in the matter, That baby could be a basketball superstar or a singer or a hockey player or a cartoonist its not fair that person would not have life if aborted.....
Just to confirm, you are against all war, all death penalties, and a variety of other practices condoned or enforced by society that result in the death of a human being.
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Old 2008-10-02, 18:02   Link #99
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Sometimes you just have to go with your heart.
Yes, but that's the point. If you are potentially pregnant, then it should be your choice as to what path you should take. It is your choice, moral or otherwise.

If someone else is potentially pregnant, why in the world should you be deciding the path they should take.
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Old 2008-10-02, 19:20   Link #100
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And Reckoner.. I find your arguments to make sense, but if you were a baby that was given life by a mother in an uncertain situation, who could have aborted you instead, and found out that she put you up for a better life, would you condemn your biological mother for "abandoning" you? And for your recent post, I really have to ask.

Since when did the life value of humans compare to that of a plan or an ant? Do you see your life valued the same as such lower forms of life compared to our state of beings?
If my mother abandoned me, no matter how good of life I may have been given, I'd resent it. I can't speak for everyone though. However, you are implying that the baby is certainly going to have a "better" life. This is not the case and never will be.

What people fail to see about this whole "Giving the baby a life it can enjoy" idea is that this ultimately supersedes the mother's decision whether she was against it or not. What if the mother did not want to undergo child birth? What if the mother had something against having a child of hers out there and knowing it too? How the heck would you know if the baby was going to enjoy this life or not? It is not even able to process thoughts as a fetus.

To answer your second question is to start dealing with philosophy. I mentioned the plant and the ant to compare them to a fetus that may not even be conscious of its own existence depending on how far it is in the pregnancy. If destroying a clump of cells that is not even able to "think" so to speak is morally wrong, why is killing something like an ant not morally wrong? An ant is living, it goes through daily processes to nourish itself.

And what is your definition of a true human being? If the fetus doesn't think, does it really exist? These are questions we can often ponder about and end up coming to no conclusion. For me, a fetus is no better than an ant.

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Originally Posted by Aoie_Emesai View Post
True. But I would assume most people wouldn't consider an average everyday plant or ant a substantial form of life...
And not everyone considers a fetus a substantial form of life.

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Still, that also counts as opinion, be it personal, or God's.
Yes, it is your opinion. You can condemn those who get abortions, but taking the choice of it away from the mother is stripping her of the freedom to decide for herself. One is not able to justify a case based upon religion.

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Originally Posted by Kiggz View Post
How would you feel if your mother aborted you ? you would not get the chance to watch all the cool animes

Aborting a baby is evil down to the root anyone who takes a life should be ashamed its sick and disgusting dont think so ?
I wouldn't know because I wouldn't be here. And yes you are allowed to think that, but no one should ever be allowed to take away a woman's freedom to decide.
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