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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 Series Rating
Perfect 10 365 44.95%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 199 24.51%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 92 11.33%
7 out of 10 : Good 76 9.36%
6 out of 10 : Average 31 3.82%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 20 2.46%
4 out of 10 : Poor 9 1.11%
3 out of 10 : Bad 4 0.49%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 2 0.25%
1 out of 10 : Painful 14 1.72%
Voters: 812. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-01-19, 14:58   Link #881
Haku-Men
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.....and it continues, maybe in a couple of years this series would be rememberd in the vain of Destiny
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Old 2009-01-19, 15:14   Link #882
Xander
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.....and it continues, maybe in a couple of years this series would be rememberd in the vain of Destiny
Is that what you want? Remember that R2 had a much better ending than Destiny and didn't suffer from cast hijacking, which was a big deal, so at the very least you should take some of the differences in mind.

If the fact some people are going to overrate the show giving it 10/10 bothers you, then you're fighting a losing a battle.

I'm just content to give the showa 7/10 and that's it. If people want to give it 1/10 or 10/10 that's their own business. I don't even think Gurren Lagann deserves a 10/10 (I gave it a 9).
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Old 2009-01-19, 15:27   Link #883
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Is that what you want? Remember that R2 had a much better ending than Destiny and didn't suffer from cast hijacking, which was a big deal, so at the very least you should take some of the differences in mind.

If the fact some people are going to overrate the show giving it 10/10 bothers you, then you're fighting a losing a battle.

I'm just content to give the showa 7/10 and that's it. If people want to give it 1/10 or 10/10 that's their own business. I don't even think Gurren Lagann deserves a 10/10 (I gave it a 9).
Dude, whatever. Nowadays no one knows what makes a "good" anime in today's time so your right I'm fighting a losing battle but thankfully I'm not the only one who feels the same way. Yes R2 had a much better ending than Destiny but what about everything else in between, to judge a series by it's ending is just as wrong to see it was horrible because the ending was bad. But like I've said before everyone's entitle to their own opinion.
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Old 2009-01-19, 17:11   Link #884
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Dude, whatever. Nowadays no one knows what makes a "good" anime in today's time so your right I'm fighting a losing battle but thankfully I'm not the only one who feels the same way. Yes R2 had a much better ending than Destiny but what about everything else in between, to judge a series by it's ending is just as wrong to see it was horrible because the ending was bad. But like I've said before everyone's entitle to their own opinion.
It's not only the ending, but how a series ends is actually rather important. In my opinion a good ending to a troubled show is usually preferrable to a poor ending to a good one (Claymore or Gantz, anyone? Some people would add Berserk, though I actually don't mind that one so much).

I already mentioned one additional difference, cast hijacking (almost a complete shift in focus from Shinn to Kira), but I don't really want to go into detailed spoilers for Destiny (which was also twice as long as R2). Anyways, I wasn't arguing against your opinion, only commenting about your expectations regarding the opinions of others.
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Old 2009-01-19, 17:26   Link #885
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It's not only the ending, but how a series ends is actually rather important. In my opinion a good ending to a troubled show is usually preferrable to a poor ending to a good one (Claymore or Gantz, anyone? Some people would add Berserk, though I actually don't mind that one so much).

I already mentioned one additional difference, cast hijacking (almost a complete shift in focus from Shinn to Kira), but I don't really want to go into detailed spoilers for Destiny (which was also twice as long as R2). Anyways, I wasn't arguing against your opinion, only commenting about your expectations regarding the opinions of others.
Well I can respect that.
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Old 2009-01-19, 19:57   Link #886
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It's not only the ending, but how a series ends is actually rather important. In my opinion a good ending to a troubled show is usually preferrable to a poor ending to a good one (Claymore or Gantz, anyone? Some people would add Berserk, though I actually don't mind that one so much).

I already mentioned one additional difference, cast hijacking (almost a complete shift in focus from Shinn to Kira), but I don't really want to go into detailed spoilers for Destiny (which was also twice as long as R2). Anyways, I wasn't arguing against your opinion, only commenting about your expectations regarding the opinions of others.

To me it depends on the ending I mean the ending to Mai Hime was so horrible that it ruined the entire series simply because it negated everything that happened since the plot started. Everybad thing that someone did was rendered not important.

For me Code Geass R2's ending was much like R2 itself, a good idea horribly executed. They spend the entire series making the common Britannian look like Nazis so they can have the Anti-Hero Lelouch look good, but it ends with Britannia becoming peaceful for little reason.

I loved the endings to Turn A Gundam, and King Gainer which this series seems to be copying since Okouchi wrote all three but Okouchi forgot that Tomino had made the opposing side either likeable (King Gainer) or not even bad (Turn A Gundam), the average Britannian is not likeable, nor do their actions make any sense.
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Old 2009-01-19, 20:20   Link #887
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For me Code Geass R2's ending was much like R2 itself, a good idea horribly executed. They spend the entire series making the common Britannian look like Nazis so they can have the Anti-Hero Lelouch look good, but it ends with Britannia becoming peaceful for little reason.

I loved the endings to Turn A Gundam, and King Gainer which this series seems to be copying since Okouchi wrote all three but Okouchi forgot that Tomino had made the opposing side either likeable (King Gainer) or not even bad (Turn A Gundam), the average Britannian is not likeable, nor do their actions make any sense.
I have to completely disagree with you there.

I thought the ending was, by far, superior in execution to a lot of the episodes that preceded it and, thankfully, it's not just little old me who thinks so. Even a lot of people who have bashed R2 to hell and back liked the end, so at least the staff did something right by them there. Numerous things in R2 were "horribly executed", but the ending is, at worst, only a little rushed. The last episode also had some of the best moments in R2, including a great battle, and was executed in such a way that I am glad to see the end of Lelouch's story. If that's what you call "horrible execution", I seriously wonder what you think of Destiny's ending (or Claymore's or Gantz's).

I understand you've been repeatedly pointing out your disappointment with how Britannia was presented throughout the entire show, in other words that's hardly a problem with the ending itself, but I also think you read way too much into this issue, above and beyond what is necessary. I definitely did not come off the show with the impression that Britannia was inhumanly evil from top to bottom and that nothing could redeem them, forever and ever.

You keep making that point but I don't see it. The average Britannian citizen is not focused on at all, only soldiers and nobility, so I prefer not to make such leaps. This is far from the first, or even the last, show where an army and ruling class are presented in a mostly negative light. I don't want to bring real politics here, but even the Nazi state was not entirely made up of devils and Germany could be redeemed. Not every single movie about WWII makes this point explicitly clear but that doesn't change reality. I'm only saying this since you brought up the Nazis.

I've seen the ending to Turn A, at least, and I think saying the ending of Code Geass R2 is a copy is a huge and unwarranted exaggeration that doesn't do justice to either finale. There might be similar themes, since as you pointed out the writer is the same and it is absolutely natural for writers to have a certain style and re-use some common ideas, but for the sake of fairness let's not throw the differences out the window. I haven't seen Gainer though, but I doubt that will support your statement either.

I can see how Code Geass, as a whole and not just R2, could have benefited from a more balanced and nuanced treatment of Britannia by spending episodes showing us dissent on the mainland or something to that effect, but I don't see Britannians as demons from hell nor do I think the show makes that the only option. I guess we'll never agree about that.

Last edited by Xander; 2009-01-19 at 20:45.
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Old 2009-01-20, 22:21   Link #888
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I have to completely disagree with you there.

I thought the ending was, by far, superior in execution to a lot of the episodes that preceded it and, thankfully, it's not just little old me who thinks so. Even a lot of people who have bashed R2 to hell and back liked the end, so at least the staff did something right by them there. Numerous things in R2 were "horribly executed", but the ending is, at worst, only a little rushed. The last episode also had some of the best moments in R2, including a great battle, and was executed in such a way that I am glad to see the end of Lelouch's story. If that's what you call "horrible execution", I seriously wonder what you think of Destiny's ending (or Claymore's or Gantz's).

I understand you've been repeatedly pointing out your disappointment with how Britannia was presented throughout the entire show, in other words that's hardly a problem with the ending itself, but I also think you read way too much into this issue, above and beyond what is necessary. I definitely did not come off the show with the impression that Britannia was inhumanly evil from top to bottom and that nothing could redeem them, forever and ever.

You keep making that point but I don't see it. The average Britannian citizen is not focused on at all, only soldiers and nobility, so I prefer not to make such leaps. This is far from the first, or even the last, show where an army and ruling class are presented in a mostly negative light. I don't want to bring real politics here, but even the Nazi state was not entirely made up of devils and Germany could be redeemed. Not every single movie about WWII makes this point explicitly clear but that doesn't change reality. I'm only saying this since you brought up the Nazis.

I've seen the ending to Turn A, at least, and I think saying the ending of Code Geass R2 is a copy is a huge and unwarranted exaggeration that doesn't do justice to either finale. There might be similar themes, since as you pointed out the writer is the same and it is absolutely natural for writers to have a certain style and re-use some common ideas, but for the sake of fairness let's not throw the differences out the window. I haven't seen Gainer though, but I doubt that will support your statement either.

I can see how Code Geass, as a whole and not just R2, could have benefited from a more balanced and nuanced treatment of Britannia by spending episodes showing us dissent on the mainland or something to that effect, but I don't see Britannians as demons from hell nor do I think the show makes that the only option. I guess we'll never agree about that.
I didn't say that the ending to Code Geass and Turn A was the same, I stated that it was an attempt to recapture Tomino's ending for Turn A Gundam that made no sense.

In Turn A Gundam, the Moon Race are generally good people who just want to live on the Earth because of the wide open space. The Earthlings where simply paranoid that the Moon Race would take over. The ending where the Moon Race and Earthlings make sense, since several episodes where made concentrating on how good the moon race was (my personal favorite of these was the cow one) it was just a battle that could have been resolved more peacefully if the Earthlings had cooler heads.

On the other hand Code Geass shows Britannia as some combination of Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany, both of which had to be reformed by the Allies. The ending makes no sense because it ignores what happened after the War especially between Japan and the rest of Asia.

South Korea, and China still despise Japan due to the atrocities commited by the Japanese after World War II, and no reason was given for why all of a sudden that's different in Code Geass.

I mean World War II, had Tojo, Hitler, and Stalin, are you saying that Lelouch was somehow worse than all three of them combined?
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Old 2009-01-21, 13:10   Link #889
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I didn't say that the ending to Code Geass and Turn A was the same, I stated that it was an attempt to recapture Tomino's ending for Turn A Gundam that made no sense.
You mean in the sense that everyone gets along, or at least starts to, but I don't think it needs to be spelled out that this idea has existed long before Turn A and has showed up in who knows how many other series and movies.

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The ending where the Moon Race and Earthlings make sense, since several episodes where made concentrating on how good the moon race was (my personal favorite of these was the cow one) it was just a battle that could have been resolved more peacefully if the Earthlings had cooler heads.
I think you're cleaning up the Moon Race's record a little too much, but that's just nitpicking on my part and rather off-topic. The point is yes, both factions are shown to be essentially the victims of mutual mistakes and several misunderstandings which could have been avoided.

All of which is absolutely fine by me, but not every single series which has ended on a note of reconciliation has demanded a similarly even-handed, so to speak, treatment for both parties involved.

Britannia was portrayed as an expansionist and discriminating empire, with complacent nobles and occupying armies, but that hardly means all of its citizens have to be mindless evil drones. Aloof perhaps, but that isn't the same thing.

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On the other hand Code Geass shows Britannia as some combination of Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany, both of which had to be reformed by the Allies.
Leaving a long list of obvious differences aside, for the sake of staying on-topic and not rambling about history (no Holocaust, etc.)...many of Britannia's worst actions were, from the looks of things, limited to Area 11 and had a lot to do with the continued resistance / terrorism there. In any case mankind has had a a much longer history of war atrocities even back to the time of the Romans if you insist.

Britannia could well be reformed and forced to pay reparations by the United Federation of Nations for those crimes it did participate in under Emperor Charles or, as the case may have it, the late Lelouch. There was a time skip and we aren't supposed to know everything that happened after Lelouch's fall and the epilogue, which was seemingly quite a few months after the fact. You seem to assume that just because we saw nothing there was nothing else.

Not all movies set in WWII need to show us the entire story either. In fact, in several cases there are also similar time skips that don't go over any war crimes trials or anything because...what's important isn't going over a detailed historical narrative but a more narrow focus, the story of the main characters involved. In Code Geass we get a sense that the world is improving, but a procedural representation isn't necessary.

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The ending makes no sense because it ignores what happened after the War especially between Japan and the rest of Asia.
Read above. It makes enough sense for me. Differences aside, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I think there will still be animosity in the air among the general population, but that hardly prevents a reconciliation process from starting, at least at high government levels, if public apologies are backed up by unquestionable actions in the right direction.

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South Korea, and China still despise Japan due to the atrocities commited by the Japanese after World War II, and no reason was given for why all of a sudden that's different in Code Geass.
Read above. That hasn't led to renewed warfare between those countries and Japan nor has it prevented their leaders from having friendly meetings in public. Without getting too political, perhaps you could look at the modern relationship between, say, Germany and France or, stretching a bit, even Germany and Russia or Germany and Israel for a few hints regarding how a significantly more positive outcome can be reached despite the existence of atrocities.

I think a reformed Britannia could follow a similar path. Britannia's led by Nunnally and we have no reason to think she wouldn't be more than willing to do so.

Last edited by Xander; 2009-01-21 at 13:26.
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Old 2009-01-21, 18:20   Link #890
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You mean in the sense that everyone gets along, or at least starts to, but I don't think it needs to be spelled out that this idea has existed long before Turn A and has showed up in who knows how many other series and movies.



I think you're cleaning up the Moon Race's record a little too much, but that's just nitpicking on my part and rather off-topic. The point is yes, both factions are shown to be essentially the victims of mutual mistakes and several misunderstandings which could have been avoided.

All of which is absolutely fine by me, but not every single series which has ended on a note of reconciliation has demanded a similarly even-handed, so to speak, treatment for both parties involved.

Britannia was portrayed as an expansionist and discriminating empire, with complacent nobles and occupying armies, but that hardly means all of its citizens have to be mindless evil drones. Aloof perhaps, but that isn't the same thing.


Leaving a long list of obvious differences aside, for the sake of staying on-topic and not rambling about history (no Holocaust, etc.)...many of Britannia's worst actions were, from the looks of things, limited to Area 11 and had a lot to do with the continued resistance / terrorism there. In any case mankind has had a a much longer history of war atrocities even back to the time of the Romans if you insist.

Britannia could well be reformed and forced to pay reparations by the United Federation of Nations for those crimes it did participate in under Emperor Charles or, as the case may have it, the late Lelouch. There was a time skip and we aren't supposed to know everything that happened after Lelouch's fall and the epilogue, which was seemingly quite a few months after the fact. You seem to assume that just because we saw nothing there was nothing else.

Not all movies set in WWII need to show us the entire story either. In fact, in several cases there are also similar time skips that don't go over any war crimes trials or anything because...what's important isn't going over a detailed historical narrative but a more narrow focus, the story of the main characters involved. In Code Geass we get a sense that the world is improving, but a procedural representation isn't necessary.



Read above. It makes enough sense for me. Differences aside, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I think there will still be animosity in the air among the general population, but that hardly prevents a reconciliation process from starting, at least at high government levels, if public apologies are backed up by unquestionable actions in the right direction.



Read above. That hasn't led to renewed warfare between those countries and Japan nor has it prevented their leaders from having friendly meetings in public. Without getting too political, perhaps you could look at the modern relationship between, say, Germany and France or, stretching a bit, even Germany and Russia or Germany and Israel for a few hints regarding how a significantly more positive outcome can be reached despite the existence of atrocities.

I think a reformed Britannia could follow a similar path. Britannia's led by Nunnally and we have no reason to think she wouldn't be more than willing to do so.
Well if you want to show that everything is not great, that their still is animosity like their is in Asia today, than show it, instead everything post geass has been basically worship of Lelouch. The poems for example are nothing more than pandering to Lelouch's fanbase.

Its just one more example of how Code Geass could have been one of the greatest anime of all times but falls massively short into mediocrity. It's always been a battle of art vs pandering, and the end shows that pandering won, since the fans want to see Lelouch as great, you can't show that animosity still exist, you can't show that Lelouch hasn't 100% suceeded, that Lelouch can do no wrong, and that's kind of sad.

Lelouch was always at his best when he was human, but the fans want to see him as a god, so Taniguchi and Okouchi are more than willing to put on their "Lelouch's is Number 1" caps on and put out crap that panders to the fanbase showing Lelouch not as the flawed human he was but as a immortal god that has the entire cast worship him.

Last edited by Charred Knight; 2009-01-21 at 18:37.
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Old 2009-01-21, 23:58   Link #891
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Well if you want to show that everything is not great, that their still is animosity like their is in Asia today, than show it, instead everything post geass has been basically worship of Lelouch. The poems for example are nothing more than pandering to Lelouch's fanbase.

Its just one more example of how Code Geass could have been one of the greatest anime of all times but falls massively short into mediocrity. It's always been a battle of art vs pandering, and the end shows that pandering won, since the fans want to see Lelouch as great, you can't show that animosity still exist, you can't show that Lelouch hasn't 100% suceeded, that Lelouch can do no wrong, and that's kind of sad.

Lelouch was always at his best when he was human, but the fans want to see him as a god, so Taniguchi and Okouchi are more than willing to put on their "Lelouch's is Number 1" caps on and put out crap that panders to the fanbase showing Lelouch not as the flawed human he was but as a immortal god that has the entire cast worship him.
But one of my points is that it's not necessary to explicitly show this. There are enough precedents in other pieces of fiction, even those based on reality, where you don't get a blatant explanation fulfilling your conditions. Anyways, even in that case the post-war reaction doesn't have to be a perfect mirror of Asia -or Europe- today because Britannia isn't just a copy of Japan -or Germany- during WWII either and the same goes for its leaders and whatever else comes to mind. You can see some similarities but there are also differences. Variety is a nice thing.

The poems we've seen involve cast members for whom Lelouch was actually important (relatives, close friends) and it would be more than natural for them to care about him after his death. What is exactly wrong with that? Nothing at all. Appreciating his sacrifice or remembering him in a positive way is a very common human behavior, it doesn't mean he was a perfect being.

In any case, if you ask me...those poems are just for the sake fluff, like what you will certainly find for many other series if you make a conscious effort to look for it instead of pretending this is somehow exclusive of Geass. Next you'll try to say that Gurren Lagann or Evangelion or Gundam have no pandering or no fluff anywhere. You have novels, side stories, liner notes, manga, etc. Probably a few poems too, I imagine.

And c'mon....I guess you despise success when it doesn't happen the way you want it to? Lelouch's death already gives the ending an incredibly bittersweet -if not outright depressing for some viewers- note, even if he was successful in his overall goal of creating a better world for the time being.

I don't think that means there aren't any difficulties at all. To quote the epilogue narration, "many problems still remain" in the Geass universe even after everything has ended.

Just so you know, I don't even think there is such a thing in this world as the greatest anime of all times. No, not Cowboy Bebop, Gurren Lagann, Legend of Galactic Heroes, Ghost in the Shell, 5cm per second or anything else usually hyped as such. Perhaps you think all of those are completely artistic, perfect and immune to pandering, but they aren't...although it is not my job to dispel that illusion here and now. I don't require the anime I watch, much less the anime I enjoy, to be perfect. Code Geass was alright by me, it doesn't need to be some extraordinary work. If I only watched the "best of the best", I'd run out of anime very quickly.

Last edited by Xander; 2009-01-22 at 00:10.
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Old 2009-01-22, 00:13   Link #892
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I concur, anime, or rather manga in my case, doesn't have to be perfect. Really, what is perfect anyways? There really is no such a thing. I gave Code Geass a ten because it was one of the best i've ever seen, and comparatively, it deserved to earn a ten. Of course this is just comparing to the previous anime I've seen and my own set standard for a quality anime.
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Old 2009-01-22, 01:17   Link #893
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I concur, anime, or rather manga in my case, doesn't have to be perfect. Really, what is perfect anyways? There really is no such a thing. I gave Code Geass a ten because it was one of the best i've ever seen, and comparatively, it deserved to earn a ten. Of course this is just comparing to the previous anime I've seen and my own set standard for a quality anime.
Which is "your" opinion mind you
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Just so you know, I don't even think there is such a thing in this world as the greatest anime of all times. No, not Cowboy Bebop, Gurren Lagann, Legend of Galactic Heroes, Ghost in the Shell, 5cm per second or anything else usually hyped as such. Perhaps you think all of those are completely artistic, perfect and immune to pandering, but they aren't...although it is not my job to dispel that illusion here and now. I don't require the anime I watch, much less the anime I enjoy, to be perfect. Code Geass was alright by me, it doesn't need to be some extraordinary work. If I only watched the "best of the best", I'd run out of anime very quickly.
Mat I remind you that all the series you've listed has been praised by a large majority of anime fandom and thus had far more credibility and longevity than Code Geass has (in fact it'll be forgotten in two years or when Sunrise's next big thing resurfaces) and the only people who bash there credibility obviously don't have the patience or dare I say competency to enjoy (far in between) and would rather see 23 minutes of bad writing and character development to care. I agree there is no such thing as a perfect anime and the only thing you can go by is what the majority thinks is good or your own preferences, one thing for sure Code Geass isn't one of them (which it could of been).

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Old 2009-01-22, 02:37   Link #894
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To put it simply, Code Geass was something I could just watch and would always be thrilled about. I felt a bit sad when it ended. There were some plot points that weren't executed well or were too rushed, but in the end I am very satisfied with the series as a whole.
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Old 2009-01-22, 11:38   Link #895
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Mat I remind you that all the series you've listed has been praised by a large majority of anime fandom and thus had far more credibility and longevity than Code Geass has (in fact it'll be forgotten in two years or when Sunrise's next big thing resurfaces) and the only people who bash there credibility obviously don't have the patience or dare I say competency to enjoy (far in between) and would rather see 23 minutes of bad writing and character development to care. I agree there is no such thing as a perfect anime and the only thing you can go by is what the majority thinks is good or your own preferences, one thing for sure Code Geass isn't one of them (which it could of been).
This isn't politics, you know...and even then things aren't so clear cut either. I don't believe in the tyranny of the masses. The majority is not free of sin and can actually be wrong.

All those shows are great. I have seen and enjoyed them. That hasn't prevented me from watching Code Geass or, for instance, Black Lagoon which is just a dumb Hollywood blockbuster in anime form and isn't exactly high art. Are all the shows you watch masterpieces or objectively great? I doubt it.

I also wouldn't say, for example, that Code Geass has better character development than Turn A Gundam, another great show which, curiously enough, has been extremely overlooked and is even considered to be the "black sheep" of Gundam by some sectors. In fact, its Japanese ratings were actually very low and it wouldn't be an exaggeration to call it a commercial failure. Your argument about great shows always being remembered is actually extremely questionable in the face of reality. Ironically enough, even Dragon Ball Z enjoys a considerable longevity if that's what you want to value. It doesn't look like SEED and SEED Destiny have been forgotten either and it's been over two years, so your formula isn't very...accurate. Not to mention that Legend of Galactic Heroes, for instance, is still a niche title and not something that has been "praised by a large majority."

But many of the great series I've mentioned have also been hyped up in unreasonable ways and have actual flaws or are simply subject to common business practices some people just ignore or throw under the carpet. Like the previously mentioned fluff Charred Knight was agonizing about. Say, I could dig up some sappy Evangelion poetry released with some art book or something to that effect. That's all I am really saying, if you can see my point. Unless you consider that to be "bashing."

I do prefer my own opinions. If I cared about what the real or simply perceived majority thinks, I'd just point to all the people who are giving Code Geass ridiculously high scores in every single site where popular voting is allowed and leave it at that. Or does this "large majority" not count? Granted, there are ways to trick the system but that applies to all other popular shows too. Even great shows have fanboys.

For me that isn't really the issue though. Again, I still think Code Geass isn't as unredeemable and mindless as many argue it is, even if it was indeed flawed, but that doesn't mean I am giving the series an A+, it's more like a B- or C+. Hopefully that is clear. This certainly doesn't prevent me from watching and appreciating better stuff.

Last edited by Xander; 2009-01-22 at 12:08.
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Old 2009-01-22, 16:35   Link #896
Charred Knight
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Turn A Gundam has less Character Development than Code Geass?

Only 4 characters are actually well developed Lelouch, C.C, Kallen, and Suzaku

The Knights of Round are never developed, most of the Black Knights are never developed. I mean Ougi never becomes an actual leader, his just handed the leadership position because Taniguchi and Okouchi like him for some reason. Villleta never stops being a greedy bitch she just falls in love with Ougi.
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Old 2009-01-22, 17:07   Link #897
Xander
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
Turn A Gundam has less Character Development than Code Geass?
No. To quote myself:

Quote:
I also wouldn't say, for example, that Code Geass has better character development than Turn A Gundam...
That speaks for itself. Turn A has better character development throughout its 50 episodes. If I wanted to complain about character development in Gundam, I'd mention someone from 0083, SEED, Destiny or even part of the cast in Zeta, but not Turn A which was actually wonderful in that regard and is in my opinion Tomino's best Gundam.

Since you brought up the point anyways...I think other characters were also developed in Code Geass, even if less so than the ones mentioned. For instance, to use an easy but forgotten example, I think Euphemia was well developed and you can see the impact she had on others even after death.

The Knights of the Rounds were, obviously, not. They spent too much time just standing around and we only got to see Luciano and Bismark (briefly) doing anything of consequence. Gino seemed superfluous and Anya was merely a vessel for Marianne. The others are not worth mentioning. Basically, they were cannon fodder.

Most of the Black Knights were relatively static characters but at least they had more of a personality and were active even if they lacked further development. Urabe only had one important action but he left more of an impression with his sacrifice than the dead KoRs ever did.

Finally, I never was a fan of Ougi and Villetta so what do you want me to say? I think that's the result of machine politics at work.

Last edited by Xander; 2009-01-22 at 17:37.
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Old 2009-01-22, 19:00   Link #898
Charred Knight
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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
No. To quote myself:



That speaks for itself. Turn A has better character development throughout its 50 episodes. If I wanted to complain about character development in Gundam, I'd mention someone from 0083, SEED, Destiny or even part of the cast in Zeta, but not Turn A which was actually wonderful in that regard and is in my opinion Tomino's best Gundam.

Since you brought up the point anyways...I think other characters were also developed in Code Geass, even if less so than the ones mentioned. For instance, to use an easy but forgotten example, I think Euphemia was well developed and you can see the impact she had on others even after death.

The Knights of the Rounds were, obviously, not. They spent too much time just standing around and we only got to see Luciano and Bismark (briefly) doing anything of consequence. Gino seemed superfluous and Anya was merely a vessel for Marianne. The others are not worth mentioning. Basically, they were cannon fodder.

Most of the Black Knights were relatively static characters but at least they had more of a personality and were active even if they lacked further development. Urabe only had one important action but he left more of an impression with his sacrifice than the dead KoRs ever did.

Finally, I never was a fan of Ougi and Villetta so what do you want me to say? I think that's the result of machine politics at work.

Looking at Code Geass it could have been one of the greatest anime series ever made, and equal to Tomino's best work (Z Gundam, MSG, Turn A Gundam) but instead either due to incompetence (Knights of the Round where horribly handled), or due to executive Meddling (too many Britannian pilots in the first place) it was just medicore.

The whole they didn't have time thing doesn't work when you compare it to stuff like Fullmetal Alchemist manga where people like Doctor Knox with the same amount of time as Gino and Anya is an incredibly well developed character who has some of the best scenes in the series.

My biggest dissapointment is that it never gave off the feel that Lelouch created a new era, none of the other Black Knights where competent so you don't see them in leadership positions except for Kaguya, and Ougi, and Ougi is completely incompetent for that position. The Britannian leadership is in shambles except for the royal family itself, and the other nations are in shambles as well since the EU lost the war, and generally you have leadership problems when that happens.
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Old 2009-01-22, 20:25   Link #899
Frostfire
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
Looking at Code Geass it could have been one of the greatest anime series ever made, and equal to Tomino's best work (Z Gundam, MSG, Turn A Gundam) but instead either due to incompetence (Knights of the Round where horribly handled), or due to executive Meddling (too many Britannian pilots in the first place) it was just medicore.
A lot of the shiny mecha, especially the pink Lancelot of all things, only existed for the same reason that GOLDEN Akatsuki existed in GSD. To sell. Code Geass even from its humble roots was a show with plenty of fanservice (rollerblading mechas not withstanding). This is, probably, also the reason some character even existed in the first place, to be fanservice.

If you take the show, and strip away the unneccesary and irrelevant characters, you are left with a pretty small, modestly developed cast. The problem is, that's not what the show was, it was an avalanche of uselessness leading to mediocrity all around for every character except those with twin initials or Suzaku. Some important characters lost time where things could be explained... for... basically nothing.

Quote:
The whole they didn't have time thing doesn't work when you compare it to stuff like Fullmetal Alchemist manga where people like Doctor Knox with the same amount of time as Gino and Anya is an incredibly well developed character who has some of the best scenes in the series.
Anya they just handled poorly on the delivery but her character was developed into something, not that that something was relevant aside from transporting Marianne. Gino, on the other hand, when his own character synopsis in design amounts to him being an ornament to make Suzaku look "happier"... makes you wonder why they didn't just put a sombrero on Suzaku's head instead of introducing a character who did absolutely nothing through the entire show.

Quote:
My biggest dissapointment is that it never gave off the feel that Lelouch created a new era, none of the other Black Knights where competent so you don't see them in leadership positions except for Kaguya, and Ougi, and Ougi is completely incompetent for that position. The Britannian leadership is in shambles except for the royal family itself, and the other nations are in shambles as well since the EU lost the war, and generally you have leadership problems when that happens.
I'd blame shoddy scripting and really, a lack of time and them trying to cram everything in last minute instead of never having worthless episodes to begin with. Poor planning leads down only one road.
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Old 2009-01-22, 20:50   Link #900
Xander
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
Looking at Code Geass it could have been one of the greatest anime series ever made, and equal to Tomino's best work (Z Gundam, MSG, Turn A Gundam) but instead either due to incompetence (Knights of the Round where horribly handled), or due to executive Meddling (too many Britannian pilots in the first place) it was just medicore.
I've already said I don't believe in the concept of something being the "greatest anime series ever made" so there's little to add without being redundant. I can enjoy something like Geass without being so demanding. I think there are indeed mediocre and even awful aspects to the story, but I do appreciate the ones that stand out above that.

However...from the days of obscure IRC chat rooms to date I've always thought Zeta Gundam was overrated and is actually a mess in its execution, not unlike how you're describing Code Geass, but that's a completely different can of worms. I think nostalgia, historical influence and the "wow" factor is what colors the popular discourse about ZG and makes people forget its flaws. The original Gundam suffers from a few problems too, if you think about the TV series and not the movie adaptation which made it into a much more effective story. Again, its influence on the Real Robot genre is probably what makes people overlook the finer details.


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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
A lot of the shiny mecha, especially the pink Lancelot of all things, only existed for the same reason that GOLDEN Akatsuki existed in GSD. To sell. .
Let's look at MSG, ZG and ZZ for a minute...Fanservice? Check. There are even a number of scenes that serve no other purpose other than, at best, comedy relief. Some completely unnecessary nudity too. Shiny mecha meant to sell model kits? Check. Lots of them. Tons of enemy mobile suits/armors of the week. Transformation sequences and shiny support units. Characters meant to appeal to a certain audience? Check. Some of them may meet a horrible fate but they're still there. They're all present if you don't magically erase them from your mind.

I'd say Turn A is an exception, in the sense it was strangely commercially unappealing in several ways, but let's not pretend this is somehow unique to Geass.

As far as my own ranking goes, Turn A > MSG movies > MSG TV > ZG TV > ZZ TV. I still sat down and watched all of Zeta, several years ago, just like I watched all of Geass. Heck, I even endured the most ridiculous episodes of ZZ, which were worse than the Ashford antics in Geass, until the show began to pick up. If I just wanted to watch "masterpieces" I'd have dropped ZZ and even ZG but I didn't.

Quote:
If you take the show, and strip away the unneccesary and irrelevant characters, you are left with a pretty small, modestly developed cast. The problem is, that's not what the show was, it was an avalanche of uselessness leading to mediocrity all around for every character except those with twin initials or Suzaku. Some important characters lost time where things could be explained... for... basically nothing.
You do have a point, in the end, but again...do you demand absolute excellence from every single show you watch and are unable to appreciate the good things even in the middle of mediocrity?

I can't believe you haven't seen, and enjoyed to a greater or lesser extent, other shows with a similar "avalanche of uselessness" from a purely critical perspective. I don't know if you'll admit it though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
The whole they didn't have time thing doesn't work when you compare it to stuff like Fullmetal Alchemist manga where people like Doctor Knox with the same amount of time as Gino and Anya is an incredibly well developed character who has some of the best scenes in the series.
Comparing a TV series to a manga, not just a short spin-off but a long running original work like FMA, isn't exactly what I would call appropiate. The mangaka can take years to plan and write what a TV series needs to accomplish in weeks, or months at most. Leaving extremely long franchises like Bleach and Naruto aside, but even those have to resort to intolerable filler when they're put on TV.

Once again, I still don't think all series require all of their elements and characters to be properly developed for the core story to be effective or simply enjoyable. It's a plus, not a must.

Quote:
My biggest dissapointment is that it never gave off the feel that Lelouch created a new era, none of the other Black Knights where competent so you don't see them in leadership positions except for Kaguya, and Ougi, and Ougi is completely incompetent for that position. The Britannian leadership is in shambles except for the royal family itself, and the other nations are in shambles as well since the EU lost the war, and generally you have leadership problems when that happens.
I see a couple of scripting issues there but not the same ones you do. For reasons already mentioned before, I don't think a detailed procedural "this is how the world was rebuilt" documentary was required. Not that they had enough time to include it, although that is of course a planning flaw we can blame on Sunrise, Bandai and the staff.

But the new era, to use your terms, isn't something that needed to be expanded upon too much. It's an opportunity that has been created, even for individuals like Ougi and the Black Knights, not an end to all difficulties.

Britannia is in shambles, yes, but Lelouch did destroy the old aristocracy by essentially ruling as an autocrat and I would say that was an intentional part of his plan. The Britannian power vacuum was filled by Nunnally and the UFN can gather around Zero. There's also slave Schneizel if you want to count that.

Last edited by Xander; 2009-01-22 at 21:02.
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