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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 Series Rating
Perfect 10 365 44.95%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 199 24.51%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 92 11.33%
7 out of 10 : Good 76 9.36%
6 out of 10 : Average 31 3.82%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 20 2.46%
4 out of 10 : Poor 9 1.11%
3 out of 10 : Bad 4 0.49%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 2 0.25%
1 out of 10 : Painful 14 1.72%
Voters: 812. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-01-22, 21:00   Link #901
Frostfire
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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
Let's look at MSG and ZG for a minute...Fanservice? Check. Shiny mecha? Check. Characters meant to appeal to a certain audience? Check. They're all there in MSG and ZG if you don't magically erase them from your mind.

I'd say Turn A is an exception, in the sense it was strangely commercially unappealing in several ways, but let's not pretend this is somehow unique to Geass.

In short, Turn A > MSG movies > MSG TV > ZG TV. I still sat down and watched all of Zeta, several years ago, just like I watched all of Geass. Heck, I even endured the most ridiculous episodes of ZZ, which were worse than the Ashford antics in Geass, until the show began to pick up. If I just wanted to watch "masterpieces" I'd have dropped ZZ and even ZG but I didn't.
I did not say fanservice and shiny-shiny weren't in other shows (I did mention GSD did I not?), but Code Geass at its base and origin was a show that depended on some level on its fanservice, on its vanity. MSG and ZG had their own share of fanservice but they also had a plot that was not pivotally affected by it. The obscene level of hax from the last generation of mechs in CG crippled a part of the story.

It was not a war anymore, it was Suzaku vs. Kallen. Xing-ke, Todou, Gino, Luciano, and so on, for all their supposed skills couldn't do much other than scratch the paint. Then you have Lelouch man-handling everyone and everything in his way with impossible tricks. The amout of "awesomeness" fanservice, which applies to hax mechs as well as hax main characters, made the plot sour.

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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
You do have a point, in the end, but again...do you demand absolute excellence from every single show you watch and are unable to appreciate the good things even in the middle of mediocrity?

I can't believe you haven't seen, and enjoyed to a greater or lesser extent, other shows with a similar "avalanche of uselessness" from a purely critical perspective. I don't know if you'll admit it though.
Actually, I never said I did not enjoy Code Geass or shows like it. I never made mention of such a thing. I infact greatly enjoyed Code Geass, even if on some level it was simply to watch Kallen and Lelouch interact once I realized that the plot had done like the game Snake and hit its own tail, but I still enjoyed it. It was a memorable experience but it simply pales in comparison to the enjoyment and completion I received from things like Gurren Lagann.

It is simply that in CG, where the story requires you pay attention, characters that do nothing stick out far more noticeably than in normal mediocre shows. Darker than Black, for example, did not need you paying attention at every turn to understand what the heck was going on and as such, some of the less important characters that were just "there" did not make to much of an impression. Watching CG, and watching the foreshadowing/allusions and carefully listening to what characters say, ends up with things like: What was the point of Gino being in the show? You think he's going to get dragged into the plot, maybe with Suzaku with whom his character was so obsessed, but... nope. He did nothing but contradict himself every two or three episodes.
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Old 2009-01-22, 21:04   Link #902
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
A lot of the shiny mecha, especially the pink Lancelot of all things, only existed for the same reason that GOLDEN Akatsuki existed in GSD. To sell. Code Geass even from its humble roots was a show with plenty of fanservice (rollerblading mechas not withstanding). This is, probably, also the reason some character even existed in the first place, to be fanservice.

If you take the show, and strip away the unneccesary and irrelevant characters, you are left with a pretty small, modestly developed cast. The problem is, that's not what the show was, it was an avalanche of uselessness leading to mediocrity all around for every character except those with twin initials or Suzaku. Some important characters lost time where things could be explained... for... basically nothing.



Anya they just handled poorly on the delivery but her character was developed into something, not that that something was relevant aside from transporting Marianne. Gino, on the other hand, when his own character synopsis in design amounts to him being an ornament to make Suzaku look "happier"... makes you wonder why they didn't just put a sombrero on Suzaku's head instead of introducing a character who did absolutely nothing through the entire show.



I'd blame shoddy scripting and really, a lack of time and them trying to cram everything in last minute instead of never having worthless episodes to begin with. Poor planning leads down only one road.
The Akatsuki was cooler than the new mechas for R2, at least it gave Mu and Cagalli something to do. The Battle of Orb was awesome, as was the scene where Neo blocks the Minerva beam. That and Neo was a much cooler character than any of the KoR.

What did the the Mordred, or Pink Lancelot ever accomplish?

I will also just say that the KoR have taken the Extended from Gundam Seed Destiny as the worst enemy aces in anime history. At least the Extended won one battle
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Old 2009-01-22, 21:10   Link #903
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post

Actually, I never said I did not enjoy Code Geass or shows like it. I never made mention of such a thing. I infact greatly enjoyed Code Geass, even if on some level it was simply to watch Kallen and Lelouch interact once I realized that the plot had done like the game Snake and hit its own tail, but I still enjoyed it. It was a memorable experience but it simply pales in comparison to the enjoyment and completion I received from things like Gurren Lagann.
So if Kallen's character had got the no-more-chara-development-treatment like C.C got in R2, then you would be one of the fans bitching as well?
Well i guess it all comes down to individual or pairings interests for the most of people when they are watching a show. Kinda shame you ask me, but to each his own.
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Old 2009-01-22, 21:12   Link #904
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
So if Kallen's character had get the no-more-chara-development-treatment like C.C got in R2, then you would be one of the fans bitching as well?
Well i guess it all comes down to individual or pairings interests for the most of people. Kinda shame you ask me, but to each his own.
Oh no, I simply said that was one of the reasons I watched it. Certainly if the show loses all its appeal to me I'm going to stop watching it, not bitch about it. I was watching up until the end hoping the Geass plotline would be resolved into something... conclusive, but it didn't happen.

There were plenty of things outside of the plot that kept me interested, it is just that when the main aspect of the show, the plot, goes to Hell, the show itself just is not as memorable.
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Old 2009-01-22, 21:26   Link #905
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I have stated that Code Geass R2 is a 6 because while it is awful when compared to great mecha series like G Gundam, Tomino's series, and Gurren Lagann, it was at least watchable which is a lot more than I can say for stuff like Dear S.
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Old 2009-01-22, 21:28   Link #906
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
I did not say fanservice and shiny-shiny weren't in other shows (I did mention GSD did I not?), but Code Geass at its base and origin was a show that depended on some level on its fanservice, on its vanity. MSG and ZG had their own share of fanservice but they also had a plot that was not pivotally affected by it.
Depends. If less time had been spent fighting shiny mobile suits/armors of the week, I think Scirocco could have been made into a far more convicing antagonist and a less annoying one to boot, the Titan's leadership would have been less uniformly evil and you'd have a more realistic political situation. Not to mention Four or Rosamia...don't get me started on those two and the plot holes involved.

It's funny how people pretend plot twists coming out of left field started with Geass or SEED, when Zeta Gundam is full of those. For that matter, Gundam 00 may be ripping off Zeta lately, yeah, but it's actually improving on the source material.

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The obscene level of hax from the last generation of mechs in CG crippled a part of the story.
I don't think it did. The Lancelot and Guren, in their ultimate forms, were only visibly overpowered in their respective one episode debuts. They didn't bother me otherwise.

Not anymore than, say, if I wanted to nitpick certain power-ups, notably the whole Newtype concept in MSG TV which seemed to come out of nowhere until the movies came out and fixed it, or the out of universe "biosensor" explanation for a very convenient phenomenon that is never explained on-screen in ZG. What about all the funnels or the ZZ itself? Looks like even back then Sunrise was not exactly avoiding the "hax" concept.

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The amout of "awesomeness" fanservice, which applies to hax mechs as well as hax main characters, made the plot sour.
For you, not for me. I had very few problems taking the core plot seriously and enjoying it. Some elements were certainly sour but I didn't let them get to me in the long run.

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Actually, I never said I did not enjoy Code Geass or shows like it. I never made mention of such a thing.
It seemed to be implied but thanks for clearing it up.

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It is simply that in CG, where the story requires you pay attention, characters that do nothing stick out far more noticeably than in normal mediocre shows.
The ironic thing is I actually had no problem paying far less attention to the characters that usually did nothing, like many of the Black Knights and almost the entire Knights of the Rounds, because I was watching the show for Lelouch's story, first and foremost. Perhaps there's something of double standard here.

I agree with you about Gino and so on thus there's nothing to argue there.

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I will also just say that the KoR have taken the Extended from Gundam Seed Destiny as the worst enemy aces in anime history. At least the Extended won one battle
I think you're forgetting obvious cases, like all those Zeon that showed up in mobile armors only to get shot down by Amuro within a single episode. There's no shortage of crappy aces.
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Old 2009-01-22, 21:34   Link #907
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
Oh no, I simply said that was one of the reasons I watched it. Certainly if the show loses all its appeal to me I'm going to stop watching it, not bitch about it. I was watching up until the end hoping the Geass plotline would be resolved into something... conclusive, but it didn't happen.

There were plenty of things outside of the plot that kept me interested, it is just that when the main aspect of the show, the plot, goes to Hell, the show itself just is not as memorable.
Well now you say this, if you look at what you said in your original quote, it seemed like you were watching it only for the sake of your pairing at some point.

Anyway, my other point is, how people say that R2 plot is totally hell. Sure, it is not the exceptional writing the first season had, but considered the route they took in the first episode of R2, i don't see how they could have done something differently. Major at least. So the bitching should start from the first episode, and not near the end.

And about characters, as Gino and so on, yeah, they might not have had that big impact on the actual plot, but charas like these are "needed" in a series. They are called background characters, pretty much not doing anything, but this is how it goes. {for "fanservice" as well}
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Old 2009-01-22, 21:41   Link #908
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Depends. If less time had been spent fighting shiny mobile armors of the week, I think Scirocco could have been made into a far more convicing antagonist and a less annoying one to boot, the Titan's leadership would have been less uniformly evil and you'd have a more realistic political situation. Not to mention Four or Rosamia...don't get me started on those two and the plot holes involved.
Fair enough, other shows have had their fair amount of shit bogging them down, it is simply that in the case of Geass, at least from my view point, it seems to be a collection of the all things that could be done poorly, being done poorly. Schneizel, for instance, was even more of a joke than Scirocco and was defeated by a joke move. Even if we say Charles was the antagonist, he also has the convincing depth of a puddle. The issue with the titans and uniform evil is also present with the poorly structured and presented Britannia.

And so on and so on. I do not dismiss that other shows had their lol problems they just weren't as aparant which may be due to them being outdated in terms of prevalent discussion. (And, I was never a fan big fan of ZG, you may see why.)

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It's funny how people pretend plot twists coming out of left field started with Geass. For that matter, Gundam 00 may be ripping off Zeta lately, yeah, but it's actually improving on the source material.
I never pretended that, I was going more on about the absurdity of its plot twists more than them being a new concept. In season 1 the plot twists were handled very well, and led to interesting things. In R2, many of them were just there for suspense and amounted to nothing.

Since this isn't the rate ZG thread, I do not really see a reason to point out all the blemishes on ZGs record.

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I don't think it did. The Lancelot and Guren, in their ultimate forms, were only visibly overpowered in their respective one episode debuts. They didn't bother me otherwise.

Not anymore than, say, if I wanted to nitpick certain power-ups, notably the whole Newtype concept in MSG TV which seemed to come out of nowhere until the movies came out and fixed it, or the out of universe "biosensor" explanation for a very convenient phenomenon that is never explained on-screen in ZG. Looks like even back then Sunrise was not exactly avoiding the "hax" concept.
Newtype upgrades came out of nowhere just like Cecile's energy wings came right out of the blue. Both were things that were handled like a hot potato and just thrown in.

As for the Lancelot and Guren, the final episodes were them destroying everything. They felled every single fighter with a name aside from Jeremiah and Anya. There was no competition. It would be like saying watching Kira beamspam was enthralling. It wasn't, it was predictable and shallow.

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For you, not for me. I had very few problems taking the core plot seriously and enjoying it. Sour? Not really. Hardly the best but definitely alright.
I never said it was sour for everyone, just for me. The core plot was very good when it was actually there. I never really said I had problems taking the plot seriously, it is just that it got rather messy come the conclusion.

In my eyes what happened was that the core plot got lost somewhere between Turn 19 and Turn 25, it was roughly guiding the show forward but all the while everything else went downwards. The plot took control again on the last episode and gave the show its strong conclusion. It just had a weak build up.

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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
The ironic thing is I actually had no problem paying far less attention to the characters that usually did nothing, like many of the Black Knights and almost the entire Knights of the Rounds, because I was watching the show for Lelouch's story, first and foremost. Perhaps there's something of double standard here.

I agree with you about Gino and so on thus there's nothing to argue there.
Could be, I was, honestly, watching the show for several things aside from just Lelouch's story. I enjoy, usually, to read into a show and try to place symbolism or foreshadowing. To find the little bits and pieces.

I think they handled his story rather well, but the story was not just the life of Lelouch, it had other sub-plots coming and going. And unfortunately a lot of them just ended up going... nowhere.
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Old 2009-01-22, 21:43   Link #909
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I think you're forgetting obvious cases, like all those Zeon that showed up in mobile armors only to get shot down by Amuro within a single episode. There's no shortage of crappy aces.
None of those guys where

"HOLY SHIT! ITS ONE OF THE BEST PILOTS THE ZEON HAVE!"

Their are three times you have holy shit Ace pilots battles in the original MSG, any battle with Char, Ranbal Ral, and the Black Tri Stars. The first two are simply legendary for how awesome the pilots are with the Black Tri Stars being more memorable for the Jet Stream Attack.

Outside of that you also have Gato, Johnny Ridden, and Shin Matsunaga, who are always shown as excellent pilots. The Mobile Armor pilots are not the best the Zeon have so you don't need to have epic battles for them.

Simply put the KoR didn't live up to the hype they where given
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Old 2009-01-22, 21:51   Link #910
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
Well now you say this, if you look at what you said in your original quote, it seemed like you were watching it only for the sake of your pairing at some point.

Anyway, my other point is, how people say that R2 plot is totally hell. Sure, it is not the exceptional writing the first season had, but considered the route they took in the first episode of R2, i don't see how they could have done something differently. Major at least. So the bitching should start from the first episode, and not near the end.

And about characters, as Gino and so on, yeah, they might not have had that big impact on the actual plot, but charas like these are "needed" in a series. They are called background characters, pretty much not doing anything, but this is how it goes. {for "fanservice" as well}
Let's start from the begining then. R2 had a mediocre start at best.

Characters like Gino are nice in theory and limited quantity, but there were just so many of them in CG R2. The entire KoR were this and they were supposed to be special Britannians. One of them did not even speak.
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Old 2009-01-22, 21:57   Link #911
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Let's start from the begining then. R2 had a mediocre start at best.

Characters like Gino are nice in theory and limited quantity, but there were just so many of them in CG R2. The entire KoR were this and they were supposed to be special Britannians. One of them did not even speak.
The begenning was definatly horribly written. The festival episode was easily one of the most vagrantly stupid anime episodes I have ever seen, Viletta becomes a bimbo, and Lelouch becomes Keitaro from Love Hina.

"Let's make the entire Black Knights useless, while Rolo gets character development" then they introduce Xingke, hype him up as Lelouch equal, than make him first Lelouch's bitch, than Schneizel's bitch. It would be interesting if they protrayed the Black Knights as rebelling against Lelouch for moral reasons but they turn around and become Schneizel's dog doing his orders.

Also as Frsotfire stated while having background characters is important, you need minor characters as well. In Code Geass all you had where main characters, and background characters. I mean Toudou was hyped as some genius, but then becomes a background character, same with Xingke.
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Old 2009-01-22, 21:58   Link #912
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
Let's start from the begining then. R2 had a mediocre start at best.

Characters like Gino are nice in theory and limited quantity, but there were just so many of them in CG R2. The entire KoR were this and they were supposed to be special Britannians. One of them did not even speak.
Fair enough then. But do not give me crap like, {not you necessarily, just seen it around and i always raise an eyebrow because it does not make sense} "woah, what happened in epi 19 and so on?" < -- when this, makes sense in the relevance and pace of the plot and story. Now, if someones considers the plot, mediocre from the beginning, then i guess it is acceptable.

Well, Gino and Anya, gave some fun and light-heart moments in the series i guess. But in the end, no matter how you swing it, it is a show about Lelouch pretty much. Suzaku got shaft-treatment in R2 as well, i guess second season should be called "R2 -- Lelouch Your Idol".
I did not have a problem with R2 to be honest, mostly because it was ridiculously entertaining, but it was kinda obvious that it got a total different direction compared to S1. And the original direction could have given so much more. {or less, but i am leaning to "more".}
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Old 2009-01-22, 22:22   Link #913
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And so on and so on. I do not dismiss that other shows had their lol problems they just weren't as aparant which may be due to them being outdated in terms of prevalent discussion. (And, I was never a fan big fan of ZG, you may see why.)
To be honest, I mostly brought in the Gundam comparisons to counter some of the previous implications about their being so great. It wasn't really my original intention to follow up on that, at least not so much, so I'll drop this soon enough after this post.

I have to agree about Schneizel and that's exactly why Scirocco came to mind. In Code Geass we have Schneizel and in Zeta we had Scirocco. Never really cared much about either. Charles...I may be biased, but I think he came off at least a little bit better. He needed more screen time too though.

I didn't despite ZG either, the show is still enjoyable and historically important despite its flaws, but yeah...I'm not a huge fan of it either. In some ways, it's an good example of how sequels don't live up to the original, which ironically also applies to R2.

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I never pretended that, I was going more on about the absurdity of its plot twists more than them being a new concept. In season 1 the plot twists were handled very well, and led to interesting things. In R2, many of them were just there for suspense and amounted to nothing.

Since this isn't the rate ZG thread, I do not really see a reason to point out all the blemishes on ZGs record.
That's fair. I agree that the first season of the show was considerably better executed and the twists, more importantly, were comparatively well placed. R2 could have used a lot less of the "shock" factor and a lot more time between each plot twist. Honestly, it feels like the staff had good ideas in mind, which is why the conclusion works, but never really paid enough attention to the necessary pacing during the planning phase and had to rush through during production.

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Newtype upgrades came out of nowhere just like Cecile's energy wings came right out of the blue. Both were things that were handled like a hot potato and just thrown in.

As for the Lancelot and Guren, the final episodes were them destroying everything. They felled every single fighter with a name aside from Jeremiah and Anya. There was no competition. It would be like saying watching Kira beamspam was enthralling. It wasn't, it was predictable and shallow.
On that first part, I guess so.

On the Lancelot and Guren...they were presented and animated as significantly superior mecha but they didn't really seal the outcome of the entire battle outside of Turns 18 (Kallen turned the tide) and 22 (the KoRs died against Suzaku in less than a couple of minutes).

First, after that point both sides had their respective super mechs and this meant they couldn't just sweep right through. Second, the presence of FREYA (or however that's spelled), as much as it can also be criticized on other levels, even provided some sort of tactical/strategic balance to the whole scenario by 23-25. Third, in 24 C.C. never really had a chance against Kallen and Suzaku's dominance versus Xingke and Toudou was expected, but it didn't make Lelouch win the battle per se, nor did it prevent the Avalon from going down.

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I never said it was sour for everyone, just for me. The core plot was very good when it was actually there. I never really said I had problems taking the plot seriously, it is just that it got rather messy come the conclusion.
Sorry for assuming too much then. I can also agree with that. Frankly, the show was often a mess in terms of execution but I still think the main points managed to come across relatively fine and there were some genuinely good moments.

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In my eyes what happened was that the core plot got lost somewhere between Turn 19 and Turn 25, it was roughly guiding the show forward but all the while everything else went downwards. The plot took control again on the last episode and gave the show its strong conclusion. It just had a weak build up.
I'd have to say the plot got briefly "lost" after the rushed 20 and the sudden shift in 21, including the annoying time skip, but the neat thing about Turn 25 is that it made Turns 22-24 fall into place quite well. As an arc, at least, if not individually, I think the final few episodes do work out better in retrospect.

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Could be, I was, honestly, watching the show for several things aside from just Lelouch's story. I enjoy, usually, to read into a show and try to place symbolism or foreshadowing. To find the little bits and pieces.

I think they handled his story rather well, but the story was not just the life of Lelouch, it had other sub-plots coming and going. And unfortunately a lot of them just ended up going... nowhere.
You're right there. Re-watching R2 actually makes me see a few bits of foreshadowing that were more important than they first appeared to be, mostly concerning Lelouch's story and how it ended, but it also reminds me of several additional subplots that didn't really go anywhere, or at least nowhere interesting.

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Outside of that you also have Gato, Johnny Ridden, and Shin Matsunaga, who are always shown as excellent pilots. The Mobile Armor pilots are not the best the Zeon have so you don't need to have epic battles for them.

Simply put the KoR didn't live up to the hype they where given
I suppose I'd have to re-watch MSG or ZG in order to think of a better example but...alright, I acknowledge you do have point there.

Most of the hype for KoRs was in magazines, official sites and other stuff though, not really in the actual show, where there's just like a couple of lines which make reference to their skill. Mostly it's their status and prestige which comes into play.

In the end, technological inferiority made their skill irrelevant. Which was a bad move, considering how aces should have put up more of a fight to begin with before being killed, but it didn't make me pull my hair out.

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The begenning was definatly horribly written. The festival episode was easily one of the most vagrantly stupid anime episodes I have ever seen, Viletta becomes a bimbo, and Lelouch becomes Keitaro from Love Hina.
The fanservice in Turn 5 was stupid and in poor taste (even for someone who isn't exactly allergic to fanservice), as was dragging out the whole Ashford / reset scenario to begin with, but I'd actually make a case for the episode being at least decently written during its more serious parts. It's really only the second half that wastes time with the whole festival and excessively skimpy outfits. But I like it more than Turn 12.

Last edited by Xander; 2009-01-22 at 22:39.
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Old 2009-01-22, 22:38   Link #914
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Which is "your" opinion mind you
Well, let's just say that I prefer action or comedy. though, if i recommended something, i tend to watch it. and quality is rather important. I think I put something like that earlier in the thread.
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Old 2009-01-22, 22:53   Link #915
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To be honest, I mostly brought in the Gundam comparisons to counter some of the previous implications about their being so great. It wasn't really my original intention to follow up on that, at least not so much, so I'll drop this soon enough after this post.

I have to agree about Schneizel and that's exactly why Scirocco came to mind. In Code Geass we have Schneizel and in Zeta we had Scirocco. Never really cared much about either. Charles...I may be biased, but I think he came off at least a little bit better. He needed more screen time too though.

I didn't despite ZG either, the show is still enjoyable and historically important despite its flaws, but yeah...I'm not a huge fan of it either. In some ways, it's an good example of how sequels don't live up to the original, which ironically also applies to R2.



That's fair. I agree that the first season of the show was considerably better executed and the twists, more importantly, were comparatively well placed. R2 could have used a lot less of the "shock" factor and a lot more time between each plot twist. Honestly, it feels like the staff had good ideas in mind, which is why the conclusion works, but never really paid enough attention to the necessary pacing during the planning phase and had to rush through during production.



On that first part, I guess so.

On the Lancelot and Guren...they were presented and animated as significantly superior mecha but they didn't really seal the outcome of the entire battle outside of Turns 18 (Kallen turned the tide) and 22 (the KoRs died against Suzaku in less than a couple of minutes).

First, after that point both sides had their respective super mechs and this meant they couldn't just sweep right through. Second, the presence of FREYA (or however that's spelled), as much as it can also be criticized on other levels, even provided some sort of tactical/strategic balance to the whole scenario by 23-25. Third, in 24 C.C. never really had a chance against Kallen and Suzaku's dominance versus Xingke and Toudou was expected, but it didn't make Lelouch win the battle per se, nor did it prevent the Avalon from going down.



Sorry for assuming too much then. I can also agree with that. Frankly, the show was often a mess in terms of execution but I still think the main points managed to come across relatively fine and there were some genuinely good moments.


I'd have to say the plot got briefly "lost" after the rushed 20 and the sudden shift in 21, including the annoying time skip, but the neat thing about Turn 25 is that it made Turns 22-24 fall into place quite well. As an arc, at least, if not individually, I think the final few episodes do work out better in retrospect.



You're right there. Re-watching R2 actually makes me see a few bits of foreshadowing that were more important than they first appeared to be, mostly concerning Lelouch's story and how it ended, but it also reminds me of several additional subplots that didn't really go anywhere, or at least nowhere interesting.


I suppose I'd have to re-watch MSG or ZG in order to think of a better example but...alright, I acknowledge you do have point there.

Most of the hype for KoRs was in magazines, official sites and other stuff though, not really in the actual show, where there's just like a couple of lines which make reference to their skill. Mostly it's their status and prestige which comes into play.

In the end, technological inferiority made their skill irrelevant. Which was a bad move, considering how aces should have put up more of a fight to begin with before being killed, but it didn't make me pull my hair out.



The fanservice in Turn 5 was stupid and in poor taste (even for someone who isn't exactly allergic to fanservice), as was dragging out the whole Ashford / reset scenario to begin with, but I'd actually make a case for the episode being at least decently written during its more serious parts. It's really only the second half that wastes time with the whole festival and excessively skimpy outfits. But I like it more than Turn 12.
In Turn 5 Villeta is blackmailed with no proof other than the words of Lelouch and Ougi. She's an idiot who had two good scenes the one scene where you see her tits, and the bathing suit that's a piece of cloth tied on by floss.

To me the KoR is roughly the equivalent to Gato showing up in MSG than being killed in two seconds because for some reason he was using a Zaku.
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Old 2009-01-22, 23:09   Link #916
Xander
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In Turn 5 Villeta is blackmailed with no proof other than the words of Lelouch and Ougi. She's an idiot who had two good scenes the one scene where you see her tits, and the bathing suit that's a piece of cloth tied on by floss.

To me the KoR is roughly the equivalent to Gato showing up in MSG than being killed in two seconds because for some reason he was using a Zaku.
I didn't even like those scenes in terms of fanservice alone, so...not going to put up much of an argument there.

That's a minor part of the episode, but alright. She was caught completely by surprise and it's not like people are perfectly rational robots all the time. Emotions carry a lot of weight...what did you expect her to do? Rollo had already turned and could kill her if Lelouch/Zero wanted to. She's seen Rollo murder his own comrades, if you recall, in mere seconds. All the other members of the intelligence unit in Ashford were already under the effects of Geass by then, so she couldn't exactly contact them and come up with a plan.

I think it was natural enough for her to fall into the trap until she could find a way to slip out. Unfortunately, that didn't really come up until...way too late in the show, and only barely of her own initiative. If anything, the problem was how it was followed up, not the twist in the episode itself.

Also, it's not just Lelouch and Ougi, technically Minami (?) and other members of the Black Knights knew her as the supposed "informant" when she showed up in the final episodes of season one. She was also seen with Ougi during the previous festival at Ashford. In fact, that's how Kallen first found out about her, no?
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Old 2009-01-22, 23:20   Link #917
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In Turn 5 Villeta is blackmailed with no proof other than the words of Lelouch and Ougi. She's an idiot who had two good scenes the one scene where you see her tits, and the bathing suit that's a piece of cloth tied on by floss.
I have to agree right there, in S1 at least, she kinda "served a purpose" of possibly exposing Lelouch's identity if her memories returned blah blah
And the love interest of Ohgi. {weird love interest but feel no need to elaborate}

In R2, up until Betrayal, she served no purpose other than those you mentioned. //not that she did something there as well, but let's say she had a "tiny" pregnant storyline after this, for the sake of the argument.
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Old 2009-01-22, 23:35   Link #918
Charred Knight
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I think it was natural enough for her to fall into the trap until she could find a way to slip out. Unfortunately, that didn't really come up until...way too late in the show, and only barely of her own initiative. If anything, the problem was how it was followed up, not the twist in the episode itself.

Also, it's not just Lelouch and Ougi, technically Minami (?) and other members of the Black Knights knew her as the supposed "informant" when she showed up in the final episodes of season one. She was also seen with Ougi during the previous festival at Ashford. In fact, that's how Kallen first found out about her, no?
Most of the twist where like that

The Black Knights finally rebel against Lelouch for moral reasons

Then immediatly sell out the world to Schneizel making Xingke his bitch

Marianne is alive inside Anya

She's evil, goofy, and now dead by the next episode
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Old 2009-01-22, 23:41   Link #919
Xander
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I have to agree right there, in S1 at least, she kinda "served a purpose" of possibly exposing Lelouch's identity if her memories returned blah blah
And the love interest of Ohgi. {weird love interest but feel no need to elaborate}

In R2, up until Betrayal, she served no purpose other than those you mentioned. //not that she did something there as well, but let's say she had a "tiny" pregnant storyline after this, for the sake of the argument.
Let it be clear that I'm not defending her character as a whole, just her reaction at the end of Turn 5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
Most of the twist where like that

The Black Knights finally rebel against Lelouch for moral reasons

Then immediatly sell out the world to Schneizel making Xingke his bitch

Marianne is alive inside Anya

She's evil, goofy, and now dead by the next episode
Marianne's reveal is the worst of those examples, by far, since there were at least some bits of build-up during the season that supported how the Black Knights reacted, if not how quickly it was handled during the episode. They did have a number of reasons to suspect Lelouch, given his past and present behavior, but the whole thing should have been a two parter in order to make it less rushed and more understandable. Instead, while I think you're simplifying what did happen, I can't blame you too much for it.

Also, Xingke doesn't really openly "submit" to Schneizel at all until...Turn 23 or so, but I admit he should have displayed a lot more initiative by then and should have lived up to his portrayal in the Chinese Federation arc.

Going back to Marianne, I thought she was more misguided than "evil" though. She suffered from coming out into the open far too late. I believe it would have been better to have her show up around Turn 15 in order to flesh her character out a little more. Anya wasn't really doing anything important at the time either so that was a wasted opportunity.

You could say that about many twists, yes, but each case is different, some were better than others.
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Old 2009-01-23, 00:07   Link #920
incorrupts
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
Most of the twist where like that

The Black Knights finally rebel against Lelouch for moral reasons

Then immediatly sell out the world to Schneizel making Xingke his bitch

Marianne is alive inside Anya

She's evil, goofy, and now dead by the next episode

Haha, you have a nice-humorous way of summing things up. |D

I have to agree with Xing-Ke especially though, when i first saw his chara, in S1, the whole sinister-look {in epi 23 of S1} i was pretty sure he was gonna display an important role in R2.
Too bad, he was just a lovesick-Tianzi "genius", that his only role was to capture Kallen.
Marianne is just the epitome of pathetic-crappy-storyline. I am still wondering why everyone was "Marianne-sama". Ridiculous.

@Xander:: I do not get what you mean, i replied to Charred Knight before about Viletta, did i miss something?
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