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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 Series Rating
Perfect 10 365 44.95%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 199 24.51%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 92 11.33%
7 out of 10 : Good 76 9.36%
6 out of 10 : Average 31 3.82%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 20 2.46%
4 out of 10 : Poor 9 1.11%
3 out of 10 : Bad 4 0.49%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 2 0.25%
1 out of 10 : Painful 14 1.72%
Voters: 812. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-06-09, 17:23   Link #1221
bladeofdarkness
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like i said
this is a matter of personal views
i dont think lelouch's actions are excused just becouse he didnt do it for PERSONAL gain
but thats just my opinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Merely repeating yourself won't change my mind about this.
And I more or less agree with sky... even though I don't only care about how "selfish" a character is when deciding if I like them.
For example, I think Clovis is indeed pretty slefish. But I also think that's by far not all there is to him.
mearly repeating myself would (hopefully) get my point across
death is more punishment then you make it out to be
its not simply an escape
its also giving up any possible future happiness
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Old 2009-06-09, 17:28   Link #1222
incorrupts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
like i said
this is a matter of personal views
i dont think lelouch's actions are excused just becouse he didnt do it for PERSONAL gain
but thats just my opinion
But i am not questioning this, i just see {or at least get the impression, correct me if i am wrong} that you are willing to give a free pass to everyone else, but Lelouch. So, it is about quantity and not quality of the people that happiness was robbed from?
Also, i never said that Lelouch's actions are excused, point me where i did say that. I just said, his actions can be seen on a tolerable-light, compared to others.
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Old 2009-06-09, 17:31   Link #1223
bladeofdarkness
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its mostly the WAY it was done
a commander who sends his soldiers into battle knows some would never come back
its a sad, but unavoidable fact
a commander who tells his soldiers to go get killed in waves in the hopes that the enemy runs out of bullets before he runs out of MEN
now thats a difference story
and its gets even more horrific when you remember that the soldiers in question have no say in the matter becouse he robbed them of their free will before the battle
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Old 2009-06-09, 17:38   Link #1224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
its mostly the WAY it was done
a commander who sends his soldiers into battle knows some would never come back
its a sad, but unavoidable fact
a commander who tells his soldiers to go get killed in waves in the hopes that the enemy runs out of bullets before he runs out of MEN
now thats a difference story
and its gets even more horrific when you remember that the soldiers in question have no say in the matter becouse he robbed them of their free will before the battle
I am talking about the happiness-theme mostly, you said that Lelouch did not deserve it, cause he robbed people out it. And i am saying, that Kallen did that as well. Suzaku too. Half of Geass cast too. Yet, only Lelouch and Suzaku got admittedly the crap-ending. What about the rest? Why did you only mention Lelouch then? The way it is done or not, the charas i did mention, robbed the happiness from innocent people too, right? So, what about them?
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Old 2009-06-09, 17:48   Link #1225
bladeofdarkness
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you would notice that i DIDNT mention suzaku at all
for the same reason that i didnt mention kallen or any of the other's
becouse i address that praticular problem ONLY to lelouch
and ONLY becouse of HOW he did what he did
not becouse of any other reason
anyone who kills is "robbing" the person he killed of their happiness
but there are WAYS of killing that i find acceptable and some that i DONT

there's a reason why they distinct between criminals and POW's IRL
becouse someone came to the conclution that the mere act of fighting for ones country shouldnt be considered a crime (there ARE war crimes, but thas something else)
a soldier (or at least, combatent) is someone who fights and kills while knowing fully well that they are just as exposed to the risk as those they kill
they are exposed to the risk, but as a counter to that, they are not treated as criminals for fighting and are treated as POW's

lelouch had commited ACTUAL WAR CRIMES against his enemies (using a sign of truce for combat uses, the use of human shields)
but what he commited against HIS OWN TROOPS was even worse


look as nice as this is, i'm kinda out of it for tonight (i'm also sick)
so i'm calling it in for tonight
good night
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Old 2009-06-09, 17:59   Link #1226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
you would notice that i DIDNT mention suzaku at all
for the same reason that i didnt mention kallen or any of the other's
becouse i address that praticular problem ONLY to lelouch
and ONLY becouse of HOW he did what he did
not becouse of any other reason
anyone who kills is "robbing" the person he killed of their happiness
but there are WAYS of killing that i find acceptable and some that i DONT

there's a reason why they distinct between criminals and POW's IRL
becouse someone came to the conclution that the mere act of fighting for ones country shouldnt be considered a crime (there ARE war crimes, but thas something else)
a soldier (or at least, combatent) is someone who fights and kills while knowing fully well that they are just as exposed to the risk as those they kill
they are exposed to the risk, but as a counter to that, they are not treated as criminals for fighting and are treated as POW's

lelouch had commited ACTUAL WAR CRIMES against his enemies (using a sign of truce for combat uses, the use of human shields)
but what he commited against HIS OWN TROOPS was even worse


look as nice as this is, i'm kinda out of it for tonight (i'm also sick)
so i'm calling it in for tonight
good night
I am sorry, but this is kinda double-standards blade and i am saying this in the sweetest way possible. 8D
So, you are not willing to examine that Lelouch had a not-selfish-outlook when he did commit his own atrocities, and you just focus on the results. Fair enough.
But when it comes to Kallen and Suzaku, you examine the way they did that, and you kinda give them a free pass.
Actually, my personal opinion, is that Kallen's {BK if you want} actions, are worse than what Lelouch did in the last arc. Lelouch in the last arc, sends soldiers to die, that is true. But a soldier is prepared to die anyway. {the fact that they were geassed is kinda irrelevant, cause they were originally soldiers anyway}
While innocent people that are getting in the middle of the fire of terrorist attacks, are not prepared. And, actually, did someone ask them, if they would like to die for BK's justice? Not really. So, on an overall thesis, innocent people > soldiers.

But like i said, it is fiction. You like/love/sympathize a chara, because you get to see his motivations, inner thoughts, blah blah
If you want to apply something general on Lelouch though {as in, robbing people's happiness} you have to apply it to the rest Geass cast then. It is not about the way, it is about the result of robbing the happiness anyway.

eta: ah well, likewise then. not the sick-part though, which btw, hope you get better. 8D
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Old 2009-06-09, 20:38   Link #1227
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Wow. Lot of back and forth here.

Going back a bit, one other thing keeping Lelouch from being as bad or worse about things regarding Zero Requiem was that it had a built in time limit, whereas any remaining willful and prominent Britannian oppressors who were still alive in the ending had been their bad selves for much longer than the series itself.
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Old 2009-06-10, 06:48   Link #1228
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*agrees with sky*

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
mearly repeating myself would (hopefully) get my point across
death is more punishment then you make it out to be
its not simply an escape
its also giving up any possible future happiness
I got your point, but we disagree on two big things.

1. I don't think death was such a horrible "punishment" for Lelouch. As you said, he died happily - in fact, his death was much happier than most of his life. It was pretty much his personal happy ending. He was the one who decided that, when and how he would die.
He didn't want to live with what he had done, so he put an end to everything.

2. I just don't buy into the whole "he deserved to die for his sins" thing.
Punishment should always serve a purpose - like making someone see that they did something wrong, or protecting someone. Both was not necessary in Lelouch's case. The fact that he hated what he had done, that he even felt the need to inflict punishment upon himself, means, to me, that this punishment has nothing to do with justice. It's only meaningful because it shows what kind of person Lelouch is.
It's easy to pass judgment on others. It's a human thing to do. However, that doesn't mean it's always right.
Lelouch may have been a genius, but he was still just a child when he was pulled into all this, and no one can tell me he didn't have some emotional and psychological issues. It's not that he can't be held responsible for his actions, he wasn't really "insane", but if it's pretty likely that anyone else in his place would have turned out the same or worse, I can't see how it's right to judge him as harshly as he himself did. He was only eighteen - considering how his life went, it's a wonder he even managed to "grow up" towards the end.

As far as I'm concerned, Lelouch alway was an awesome person. An awesome person who did many shitty things, and yes, he's far from being a saint, but I don't think he "deserves" anything bad just because he had a shitty life that would have made anyone twisted. The more or less innocent people whose lives he ruined on his quest certainly didn't deserve that, either, and he had no right to trample over them like that, but he knows that very well, and killing him helped no one outside of the whole ZR thing. If it wasn't for that, we'd only end in the "chain of hatred" again here, and that's just not necessary.
Of course, I can't say for sure I'd feel the same if he had trampled over my life, but I also don't know if I had be any better than him if I'd been in his place. Probably not. Except that I'd have been too busy stalking Clovis to notice I wanted to take over the world.
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Old 2009-06-12, 17:53   Link #1229
Levy
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@My Awesome Soulmate!:struggling to not go too much tl;dr - I think that Lelouch got his 'punishment' for all the things he had been doing wrong in the moment he thought that the FREJA has killed Nunnaly. That was the climax of his 'punishment' kinda foreshadowed by the incident with Euphie: a Geass that activates in the worst moment possible with catastrophic conseguences.
Everything went downhill for him from that moment on, but is this same fall that made him change. I'm of the opinion he had been punished inside of his life with this, that he learned his lesson for the best, and therefore 'punishing' him with death as it was some unavoidable requirements is a concept that has litterally zero appeal to me.


@sky: good point about the difference in killing soldiers/civilians. I mostly agree, even though, Lelouch is not shown to be really intentioned to spare as many life as he could among is ranks, a basic requirements for any good leader, and he's easy to criticize at least on this.
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Old 2009-06-12, 18:23   Link #1230
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You might run into some issues trying to claim Lelouch 'deserved' to die on the basis of some objective moral or universal karmic system, but then again there are certainly just as many (if not more) problems with claiming that Lelouch 'deserved' to live. The real reason Lelouch died is because he wanted to, and to a lesser but still significant degree because Suzaku wanted him to. Individual watchers might not like that (and indeed I can't see Zero: R as anything close to an objective solution), but Lelouch's death was ultimately inevitably where the narrative was heading. Therefore, I think people who take issue with Lelouch's choices during the ending and only the ending are lacking a bit of perspective, and will generally agree with anybody who is satisfied with how the package topped off as a whole.
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Old 2009-06-13, 18:41   Link #1231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
You might run into some issues trying to claim Lelouch 'deserved' to die on the basis of some objective moral or universal karmic system, but then again there are certainly just as many (if not more) problems with claiming that Lelouch 'deserved' to live. The real reason Lelouch died is because he wanted to, and to a lesser but still significant degree because Suzaku wanted him to. Individual watchers might not like that (and indeed I can't see Zero: R as anything close to an objective solution), but Lelouch's death was ultimately inevitably where the narrative was heading. Therefore, I think people who take issue with Lelouch's choices during the ending and only the ending are lacking a bit of perspective, and will generally agree with anybody who is satisfied with how the package topped off as a whole.
Not to mention of course the show's Karma Houdini quotient. Not that this is the first time I've said as much.
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Old 2009-06-15, 21:49   Link #1232
ClovisLaBritannia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
*agrees with sky*



I got your point, but we disagree on two big things.

1. I don't think death was such a horrible "punishment" for Lelouch. As you said, he died happily - in fact, his death was much happier than most of his life. It was pretty much his personal happy ending. He was the one who decided that, when and how he would die.
He didn't want to live with what he had done, so he put an end to everything.

2. I just don't buy into the whole "he deserved to die for his sins" thing.
Punishment should always serve a purpose - like making someone see that they did something wrong, or protecting someone. Both was not necessary in Lelouch's case. The fact that he hated what he had done, that he even felt the need to inflict punishment upon himself, means, to me, that this punishment has nothing to do with justice. It's only meaningful because it shows what kind of person Lelouch is.
It's easy to pass judgment on others. It's a human thing to do. However, that doesn't mean it's always right.
Lelouch may have been a genius, but he was still just a child when he was pulled into all this, and no one can tell me he didn't have some emotional and psychological issues. It's not that he can't be held responsible for his actions, he wasn't really "insane", but if it's pretty likely that anyone else in his place would have turned out the same or worse, I can't see how it's right to judge him as harshly as he himself did. He was only eighteen - considering how his life went, it's a wonder he even managed to "grow up" towards the end.

As far as I'm concerned, Lelouch alway was an awesome person. An awesome person who did many shitty things, and yes, he's far from being a saint, but I don't think he "deserves" anything bad just because he had a shitty life that would have made anyone twisted. The more or less innocent people whose lives he ruined on his quest certainly didn't deserve that, either, and he had no right to trample over them like that, but he knows that very well, and killing him helped no one outside of the whole ZR thing. If it wasn't for that, we'd only end in the "chain of hatred" again here, and that's just not necessary.
Of course, I can't say for sure I'd feel the same if he had trampled over my life, but I also don't know if I had be any better than him if I'd been in his place. Probably not. Except that I'd have been too busy stalking Clovis to notice I wanted to take over the world.

Yes even Megalomainiac EL Britannia said that he got too emitional,
but i think you summed up Jesus Vi Britannia pretty well ('cept this Jesus wont rise from the dead )
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Old 2009-06-15, 23:39   Link #1233
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Well, Schneizel wasn't even concerned with emotions in the least, so there was no real stretch there.
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Old 2009-06-17, 11:06   Link #1234
ClovisLaBritannia
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Well, Schneizel wasn't even concerned with emotions in the least, so there was no real stretch there.
well i meant he said that lelouch got too emotional
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Old 2009-06-22, 16:01   Link #1235
synaesthetic
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R2 was... different.

I felt season one was much more structured, much better written and paced things in a much better fashion. Granted, the first episode was filled with an enormous number of contrived coincidences, but this sort of thing commonly takes place in fantastic settings.

My biggest gripe with R2 is its inconsistency. The first season did a fairly decent job of keeping a consistent and coherent storyline (cats running away with Zero's mask notwithstanding).

R2 felt disjointed and rushed, and we all know why that is. The story was changed in such a way that it would not require watching the first season to know what was happening. This, I feel, harmed the story more than anything and caused major pacing problems in the latter half of R2. Many of the gag episodes (specifically the episode in which Lelouch was set up on 108 dates, and the love-hat episode where Anya crashes her mech through the wall) felt ridiculously out of place considering the not so light tone of the story.

I do think it did some good though.

The early episodes had a very nice dynamic going between Kallen and C.C., reminding me a lot of a milder version of Kirika and Mireille or Nanoha and Fate (without the lesbian subtext, though I'm sure plenty of fans invented some subtext between C.C. and Kallen).

Rolo started off as a terrible character that I slowly grew to like more and more until his utterly horrifying action midway through the series. I actually thought this was a pretty good touch. Rolo started off unlikable and annoying, slowly growing more sympathetic and likable even as Lelouch uses him.

Spoiler for Rolo's bad, bad thing:


I was also particularly happy to see Nina played somewhat more sympathetically than she was in season one. She still is totally insane and mentally unbalanced throughout most of the season, but not ridiculously so. However, even that doesn't fix the damage done by her terrible attitude and creepy obsession with Euphie in season one.

Suzaku went the predicted direction and became even more of a knight-templar than before. It's gotten really easy to dislike him; it wasn't so easy in season one when he still seemed to have right on his side (to an extent). The "live" Geas is the likely culprit, forcing him to do things he doesn't necessarily want to do and making him even more confused.

The absolute best part of R2 was, of course, JEREMIAH GOTTWALD. No further explanation needed.
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Old 2009-06-22, 16:29   Link #1236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Spoiler for Rolo's bad, bad thing:
Spoiler for clarification:
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Old 2009-07-06, 01:58   Link #1237
428
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As people around me know, I use different barometers for different genres.

Geass was a mecha/sci-fi/drama, so I'll use the "Sunrise" barometer.

Animation Quality: 10
Come on, it's Sunrise.

Characters: 10
It's a CLAMP job.

Script: 5
Editing: 5
Here's where it failed. It was a little sketchy and messy.
I mean, Rolo was like the greatest example. Of the fail of the script.

Total: 7.5
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Old 2009-07-07, 22:39   Link #1238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Spoiler for clarification:
That's even worse. And now I have no idea how I'm supposed to feel during his death scene. Should I be happy or sad? I don't know anymore~!
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Old 2009-07-10, 22:41   Link #1239
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Sad, because Rolo was a really pitiful, pathetic character. He was trained as a child assassin, treated as a tool all his life, and was being used by the one person who ever showed him kindness and whom he believed loved him. :/
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Old 2009-07-10, 22:49   Link #1240
Nobodyman9
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Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow View Post
Sad, because Rolo was a really pitiful, pathetic character. He was trained as a child assassin, treated as a tool all his life, and was being used by the one person who ever showed him kindness and whom he believed loved him. :/
Unfortunately, he had to go and kill the one character who was more tragic than him (yes yes, I know that's all up to personal opinion)
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