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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 Series Rating
Perfect 10 365 44.95%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 199 24.51%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 92 11.33%
7 out of 10 : Good 76 9.36%
6 out of 10 : Average 31 3.82%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 20 2.46%
4 out of 10 : Poor 9 1.11%
3 out of 10 : Bad 4 0.49%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 2 0.25%
1 out of 10 : Painful 14 1.72%
Voters: 812. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-09-14, 10:02   Link #1401
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
Well, again, to be fair, he is looking at the future. He is carrying the burden of everyone's hate squarely on his shoulders, so that when he dies, the world can move on with no hate.

Perhaps his methods are wrong, but in his POV, the end result justifies the means. And to him, it does matter if some people die, that is why he had Suzaku kill him before Kallen and Co got EXECUTED.
my problem is that the exact same thing could be said about the other two
you can only claim to be "necessarily evil" if it is actually necessary to BE evil
otherwise you're just evil

and he admited to C.C that he would go through with his plan even if nunnaly would die as a result
and if he is willing to sacrifice the one person on earth he loves the most for the sake of this plan...
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Old 2009-09-14, 10:43   Link #1402
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Well, it was his choice anyway. He could have chosen to sign the agreement with the Union of Nations in the first place. Instead he decided to continue the war and it ended up with more destruction as well. Could be a director's excuse to drag out the series. However, I feel that it should have ended at 21, and a third series to show what happened after that. Perhaps lelouch felt that he would not be forgiven anyway. The main reason why the Black Rebellion failed in season 1 was because of lelouch's care for nunnally, which is considered a weakness for a commander. Now, he probably learnt his lesson that sacrifices have to be made in making choices. Heck, he was even willing to fire FREIJA in ep 25 to show that he was in command here. I dunno about him acting like a martyr, since in all retrospect, he was still the most powerful man in the world (At least politically).

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my problem is that the exact same thing could be said about the other two
you can only claim to be "necessarily evil" if it is actually necessary to BE evil
otherwise you're just evil
Doing things, including evil things, all involves a reason, no matter how good or bad their actions were. The necessary here however, would have to be in the point of the person involved. Take for example censorship. No matter how many times people say that it is necessary, it is still considered 'evil' because it has to be done to achieve the goals of the person or organisation, even against heavy opposition and with heavy unpopularity. In CG context, the big three all became 'neccessarily' evil there, in order to achieve their goals which they feel will definitely benefit humanity in the long run. I agree with ur sentiments there as well. But the thing is the story is told mostly from lelouch's point of view as well. To the Black Knights (who were entirely left out of this plot), they will perceive lelouch as evil until they realise what he has been trying to do all this while. The same can be said about the other two. Charles believe in an Utopia, where people will live in harmony without sin. Schneizel believes in an oppressive world, where in order to save humanity, an external force to suppress humans has to be introduced. Both believed that their way should be the way, and both believed that it was a necessary evil. However, if others dont see it their way, it is just plain evil. Not trying to antagonise anyone, but all these things are just what people see. As Shakespeare said: "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

K can anyone here help me with this? My question would be why do you think lelouch come up with the zero requiem in the first place? Did he get tired of living due to the setbacks that he had? Or was it Suzaku was there, ready to kill him in revenge of Euphy? Or was it something else that we dont noe?
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Old 2009-09-14, 10:51   Link #1403
bladeofdarkness
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necessary evil requires that it be necessary to BE evil in order to prevent a greater evil
in lelouch's case, he chose to be evil without it actaully being necessary
if he DECIDES that he WANTS to do zero-requiem, without it actually been necessary, then he is not necessarily evil
i could LIKE him when he was being necessarily evil
i can like him when he's evil because of his own stupid pride wont let him just sign a piece of paper and end the war
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Old 2009-09-14, 13:42   Link #1404
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
again
necessary evil requires that it be necessary to BE evil in order to prevent a greater evil
in lelouch's case, he chose to be evil without it actaully being necessary
if he DECIDES that he WANTS to do zero-requiem, without it actually been necessary, then he is not necessarily evil
i could LIKE him when he was being necessarily evil
i can like him when he's evil because of his own stupid pride wont let him just sign a piece of paper and end the war
Keep in mind that Lelouch has always had selfish or personal reasons for his actions, since the very first episode, so the necessity of his "evil" always depends on what greater rationale you add to his other set of motivations.

This did not really change that much during that final arc. Lelouch's decisions served his own beliefs and interests first, leaving the world's specific needs second. To do otherwise would go against his character.

Strictly speaking, until then he had been doing everything for Nunnally, to find out the truth about his mother's murder and avenge her. Remove that from the equation and he would lose over half of his desire to rebel.

Was that really necessary? Nunnally herself didn't want him to go outside and fight, the truth about his mother's murder was known by C.C. and there wouldn't be a need to fight Britannia as a whole instead of just V.V.

Zero Requiem was a plan that largely depended on his desire for punishment first, wrapped around his ideals about how the world should be able to move on in the process, and on the need to stop Schneizel's Damocles second.

He didn't need to go through all those motions in order to prevent Schneizel from deploying Damocles, but then he would have to be a different person without any of the emotional baggage that was also dictating his moves.

Last edited by Xander; 2009-09-14 at 14:07.
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Old 2009-09-14, 14:11   Link #1405
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opposing an empire as powerful and "evil" as britannia is a necessary thing
maybe not for lelouch on a personal level, but opposition to evil is always necessary
combating against a tyranical racist force such as that is a noble goal in itself
and if this requires "evil" acts, then it is a "necessery evil"
which makes it excusable, even if not acceptable

but once lelouch gained hold of britannia, the war would have ended the moment he said so
at THAT point, any other move he makes save for just signing a peace treaty is unnecessary
and if his moves are also evil, then they are an "UN-necessary evil"
or in other words, just plain evil
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Old 2009-09-14, 14:15   Link #1406
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It's not like a treaty would have eradicated all war.
Who knows how many wars Lelouch had anticipated in the near future if he hadn't gone through with Zero Requiem? It's no permanent solution, but I don't think his pride and issues were his only reason. That's not how it was portrayed, be it in the show itself or interviews with the staff.
But either way, I recently arrived at the conclusion that Lelouch was one of the most moral characters of the show. Which mostly means Code Geass has a lot of highly immoral characters, but... oh well. My pet moral theory has spoken. xD
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Old 2009-09-14, 14:17   Link #1407
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
My probelm was the one scene where Schneizel asked for leadership and then his reasoning was that since he never lost to Lelouch at chess when Lelouch was a child than his clearly the best man for the job instead of Xingke who actually beat Lelouch once. in an actual battle.

As for the rest, the final battle could have been avoided by sending diplomats to negotiate a new reform for the world. Kaguya had control of the UFN, Lelouch had control of Britannia. With proper reform they could have solved the problem without that final battle.

Several times the only logical answer for events is "One of the members of Britannia Royal family is insane"
Did I not JUST say I didn't want to talk about the series problems AGAIN! Sigh...it really is just impossible, that is what this sub-forum has become.
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Old 2009-09-14, 14:18   Link #1408
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It's not like a treaty would have eradicated all war.
neither would zero-requiem
in fact, its the one thing that its sure not to do, because thats the down side it has to shnizel's plan
so long as there is ambition left unchecked, there would be war
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Old 2009-09-14, 14:20   Link #1409
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neither would zero-requiem
in fact, its the one thing that its sure not to do, because thats the down side it has to shnizel's plan
so long as there is ambition left unchecked, there would be war
Again, that's not how it was portrayed.
Yes, Zero Requiem will not bring eternal peace. However, it was said that Lelouch's friends will most likely face a "better tomorrow" now, and since this is fiction, it's highly possible that there will be more than a century without war thanks to Lelouch.
In the long-run, he might have saved a lot more people than he killed.
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Old 2009-09-14, 14:26   Link #1410
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Again, that's not how it was portrayed.
Yes, Zero Requiem will not bring eternal peace. However, it was said that Lelouch's friends will most likely face a "better tomorrow" now, and since this is fiction, it's highly possible that there will be more than a century without war thanks to Lelouch.
In the long-run, he might have saved a lot more people than he killed.
what lelouch did was end the "world war" that was around for the whole show
in the same way that WWI and WWII ended in 1918 and 1945
do you know how many conflicts there have been since WWII ended all over the world
fiction or no fiction, its not reasonable to imagine a single DAY without a war raging somewhere on earth once lelouch was gone (without him to oppress the combatants)

i give it two, maybe three days till the next war starts somewhere on earth
it might not involve japan, and it might not involve britannia
but it will happen
because it ALWAYS happens
it may be a better future then what was happening for most of the show (with a world war raging)
but its not an end to war
even kallen admits that some problems still remain
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Old 2009-09-14, 14:30   Link #1411
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what lelouch did was end the "world war" that was around for the whole show
in the same way that WWI and WWII ended in 1918 and 1945
do you know how many conflicts there have been since WWII ended all over the world
fiction or no fiction, its not reasonable to imagine a single DAY without a war raging somewhere on earth once lelouch was gone (without him to oppress the combatants)

i give it two, maybe three days till the next war starts somewhere on earth
it might not involve japan, and it might not involve britannia
but it will happen
because it ALWAYS happens
You're disregarding what the staff said about a "better tomorrow" and what the epilogue showed.
There will be no war if they don't make a third season that turns Lelouch into a delusional idiot.
But... I think I'm too lazy to discuss something that is purely speculation. I still say there are few characters in the show more moral than Lelouch, though.
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Old 2009-09-14, 14:33   Link #1412
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You're disregarding what the staff said about a "better tomorrow" and what the epilogue showed.
There will be no war if they don't make a third season that turns Lelouch into a delusional idiot.
a tomorrow where there isnt a world war IS a better tomorrow
doesnt mean that there is no war anywhere
and for some reason, i find the idea of lelouch's egocentric master-plan turning into a "nice job breaking it hero" moment
very in character for lelouch

Quote:
But... I think I'm too lazy to discuss something that is purely speculation. I still say there are few characters in the show more moral than Lelouch, though.
who and why ?
who is more moral, and why ?
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Old 2009-09-14, 14:43   Link #1413
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a tomorrow where there isnt a world war IS a better tomorrow
doesnt mean that there is no war anywhere
Probably less than if Lelouch had stayed around, though.

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and for some reason, i find the idea of lelouch's egocentric master-plan turning into a "nice job breaking it hero" moment
very in character for lelouch
Hm, true.
Then let me rephrase: they'd be crushing the awesomeness of Zero Requiem, and show that choosing to believe in mankind (even if not enough not to deceive people) wasn't such a good idea, after all.
Lelouch and Suzaku took a gamble, and it's one that should pay off.

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who and why ?
who is more moral, and why ?
From my point of view, Lelouch is more moral than a lot of people, simply because he did something to change how matters were. He is, as I recently concluded, more moral than Suzaku to me up until Zero Requiem, because Suzaku would never have been able to help more than a few people. He is more moral than Schneizel, because I find deception preferable to fear (except if Okouchi told us Damocles would have lasted forever; then I'd probably back off on that).
Actually, it's a bit more complicated than this, but essentially, that's what I believe.
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Old 2009-09-14, 14:52   Link #1414
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Probably less than if Lelouch had stayed around, though.
maybe
and maybe not
probably not
since the one thing lelouch was able to do with his brilliant plan, was destroy a very large amount of the worlds sakuradite supply
guess what happens when the worlds supply of energy drops sharply
people fight over the resources

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Hm, true.
Then let me rephrase: they'd be crushing the awesomeness of Zero Requiem, and show that choosing to believe in mankind (even if not enough not to deceive people) wasn't such a good idea, after all.
Lelouch and Suzaku took a gamble, and it's one that should pay off.
which is why i have repeatedly said, that if there IS a sequal, they should have the new villain
it should be one that Z-R created
one that would NEVER have turned into a villain and put world peace at risk if lelouch hadnt acted like an ass
a nice little "nice job breaking it hero" spin on it
call it karma

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From my point of view, Lelouch is more moral than a lot of people, simply because he did something to change how matters were. He is, as I recently concluded, more moral than Suzaku to me up until Zero Requiem, because Suzaku would never have been able to help more than a few people. He is more moral than Schneizel, because I find deception preferable to fear (except if Okouchi told us Damocles would have lasted forever; then I'd probably back off on that).
Actually, it's a bit more complicated than this, but essentially, that's what I believe.
you compare him to the second main villain, and a guy who willingly admits that he is despicable
and i dont completely agree about suzaku, specificlly about the idea that he is more moral during Z-R then before it
thats not "few people more moral"
being more moral then the main villain is not something to brag about
especially since its not by much

compare him to euphie, nunnaly, kallen, xing-ke, cornellia, jeremia, and the likes
characters who are NOT the main bad guy of the show
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Old 2009-09-14, 15:02   Link #1415
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maybe
and maybe not
probably not
since the one thing lelouch was able to do with his brilliant plan, was destroy a very large amount of the worlds sakuradite supply
guess what happens when the worlds supply of energy drops sharply
people fight over the resources
It's fiction, and it didn't say anything about that.

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which is why i have repeatedly said, that if there IS a sequal, they should have the new villain
it should be one that Z-R created
one that would NEVER have turned into a villain and put world peace at risk if lelouch hadnt acted like an ass
a nice little "nice job breaking it hero" spin on it
call it karma
Yes, let's pwn Lelouch and Zero Requiem... not.
I'd rather have a sequel with lots of Clovis instead.

Quote:
you compare him to the second main villain, and a guy who willingly admits that he is despicable
and i dont completely agree about suzaku, specificlly about the idea that he is more moral during Z-R then before it
thats not "few people more moral"
being more moral then the main villain is not something to brag about
especially since its not by much
If people could all agree on what morality is, philosophy would become boring. Or maybe not.
Anyway, we clearly have different believes.

Quote:
compare him to euphie, nunnaly, kallen, xing-ke, cornellia, jeremia, and the likes
characters who are NOT the main bad guy of the show
Season 1 Nunally never did anything by herself. When Suzaku came to Ashford, it wasn't her who tried to make people accept him - instead, she went to her brother with her concerns. She belongs to those who would simply have let Britannia do as it pleased.
Season 1 Kallen... well, the terrorists were clearly endangering civilians even though they appatently didn't believe they could beat Britannia with their methods. Without Lelouch, all of them would most likely just have ruined people's lives.
Xing-Ke wasn't fighting for a better world until later on. Jeremiah and Cornelia actively helped Britannia cause the suffering Lelouch wanted to end.
The whole Ashford Academy didn't do anything to change things. Just look at Rivalz, who was much more worried about coming late to school than people who'd been victims of a car crash.
Euphie... well, we don't know what she could or couldn't have achieved in the long-run. But Euphie is probably the closest to a saint Code Geass has, so comparing Lelouch to her would be pointless.
Also, Schneizel, too, was more moral than a lot of other people, in my opinion.
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Old 2009-09-14, 15:07   Link #1416
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thats not comparing
thats just naming random faults
nunnaly not helping suzaku to become accepted is NOT comparable with what lelouch does
neither is xing-ke "not fighting for better world until later on"
kallen's "not believing they could beat Britannia with their methods"
or rivals showing more concern about being late for school then a car crash

that is not comparable with what lelouch does

and maybe we should take this to lelouch's thread ?
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Old 2009-09-15, 01:52   Link #1417
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What makes Lelouch special, in comparison to every other single character you mentioned just now is pretty obvious. He think on a global scale.

Xing-Ke dun give a rat's ass about the world, he just want to kill the Eunuchs and get his precious Tianzi back and show her the outside world, and he is content with that. Without Zero appearing, the Chinese Union will disintegrate, and prolly more wars will take place.

Kallen? I love her certainly, but her scope of ambition does not expand past good ol Japan and kicking good ol Britannian ass out of her home country. Well, half-home country, I guess.

Nunally? She just wants to live happily with her older brother. The End.

Cornelia... As far as I can remember, all she wants to do is find out about Geass in season 2, and in season 1, she just basically rules whatever areas she receives. She could care less about changing the world.

Orenji-kun. Meh, again, not much ambition for him. Until halfway through Season 2, we didn't even know what the hell he was good for except getting repetitively mocked.

Euphie. Yes, she wants a nice, kinder world, but she doesn't even come close to having the power needed to change the entire world. Even Japan is difficult enough...

Ashford Academy people...they are normal people, not much to say.

Schneizel... comparatively speaking, Lelouch was more moral, because he would rather sacrifice himself rather than ruling the world through fear of getting..FLEIAed. Schneizel, as Cornelia stated, would make a good king, but his methods were worse than Lelouch's, no matter what you say.

And Lelouch was really being very selfless, he could've just geassed another prince/princess to do Zero Requiem, but he chose to do it himself.

And I am pretty sure I am way on the wrong thread by now.
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Old 2009-09-15, 02:48   Link #1418
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What makes Lelouch special, in comparison to every other single character you mentioned just now is pretty obvious. He think on a global scale.
he doesnt think "on a global scale"
he just fights for a different concept then the others
everyone else you mention fight FOR something, fighting to defend something
lelouch fights AGAINST something
lelouch fights because he wants to DESTROY BRITANNIA, not free japan, or protect china or whatever
he fights to destroy Britannia for revenge
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Old 2009-09-15, 06:48   Link #1419
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he doesnt think "on a global scale"
he just fights for a different concept then the others
everyone else you mention fight FOR something, fighting to defend something
lelouch fights AGAINST something
lelouch fights because he wants to DESTROY BRITANNIA, not free japan, or protect china or whatever
he fights to destroy Britannia for revenge
Not during Zero Requiem.
And before, he also wanted to "create a gentle world" for his sister.

Hm... I think I disagree on Schneizel being less moral because he didn't sacrifice himself, though. He didn't choose Damocles because he was so fond of his life, but because he didn't have any faith in humanity - as Kanon said, he has no desires for himself.
I still think he's less moral, though, because I like to throw in a bit of consequentialism.
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Old 2009-09-15, 09:18   Link #1420
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
he doesnt think "on a global scale"
he just fights for a different concept then the others
everyone else you mention fight FOR something, fighting to defend something
lelouch fights AGAINST something
lelouch fights because he wants to DESTROY BRITANNIA, not free japan, or protect china or whatever
he fights to destroy Britannia for revenge
By Zero Requiem, he had already stated it himself that he had nothing left to fight FOR, or to fight AGAINST. He just wants to save the world, so to speak. Nunally was dead to him prior to the final battle.

And well, I still think that he fights on a global scale. After he destroyed Britannia, that reasoning is moot really, cause by then he should have nothing left to destroy.

And everyone else I mentioned did fight for something, and to defend something, but they are DOMESTIC. None of those characters I mentioned have a plan that covers the ENTIRE world, they only care about Japan, China, Ashford Academy, etc..

And in that respect, Lelouch does think about the future making him in a way...more moral.
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