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Old 2008-10-13, 02:50   Link #101
JackRydden224
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In most Gundam series a shot of beam to the chest area = doom

On a related note, I've been playing SRW Z recently and discovered that Zambot 3 actually docks with the Ion Cannon to its chest area when it uses it. Now Zambot is pretty old so can we say that Zambot is the original cannon docking mecha?
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Old 2008-10-13, 08:09   Link #102
Kelrys
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So the Federation manufacture the new model and Ahead. What happen to the old Flag, Enact and Tieren? Seems like Kataron has gotten most of them.
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Old 2008-10-13, 08:58   Link #103
miles316
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lance

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningZERO View Post
Those smoke weapon is really something useful for GN-XIII. Too bad 00 Gundam's sword is stronger than its lance . But it is risky too, the smoke can almost render their own Ahead useless too since all it uses are beam weapon
the lance was intended to take out conventional Mobil suits meant to punch through ballistic armor and to fire short range beams in close quarters. not to parry sword blows.
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Old 2008-10-13, 09:07   Link #104
miles316
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
It doesn't take 80 years or so to get to Jupiter - with our present spacecraft technology. Voyager 1, which doesn't have an active propulsion system, took only 3 years to reach Jupiter at it's nearest, although depending on the orbital alignment of the Earth to Jupiter it can take anywhere from 3-6 years to travel to Jupiter. Given another 3-6 years to get back to Earth this gives you a minimum of 6-12 years round trip time. This of course, not considering factors like waiting for ideal orbital alignment for travel, and of course the production time for the GN Drives.



They may have thought CB was no more, but it's apparent they still have Anti-beam defenses: In episode 1, the Ahead's shield was able to take a few direct beam hits before becoming useless, and the GN-XIII has anti-beam smokescreens.

Also, the GN Lance is mentioned in the HG GN-XIII's spec profile to be able to penetrate GN Fields; yet Kataron doesn't even have anything capable of producing GN Fields. So even if they thought CB was gone, they nonetheless still created offensive and defensive technologies to fight CB tech.
it is possible that rebel forces have captured a GNX in the last 4 years and anticipate rebel suit to be equipped with beam weapons, and since they did not capture celestial beings suits they assumed they were still a threat not a public one since they need a public victory to solidify the first world government.
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Old 2008-10-13, 09:33   Link #105
kari-no-sugata
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
All the Gundams use E-Carbon armor, which is actually quite tough (the HG Exia manual states it can actually negate the GN Vulcans), and yet at the same time quite common (hence the HRL technician's comment that the Kyrios' tail container wasn't anything they can't build.)

However, CB may be using GN Particle tech to enhance the defensive power of E-Carbon, an example being GN Composite Armor, which is E-Carbon that sandwhiches a layer of GN Particles to enhance it's defensive power (first tested on the Gundam Plutone).
That would mean that the 0 Gundam had just normal E-Carbon armour, right?

Which would make it rather easy to take down. If it had tried what Setsuna did with Exia in S1 Ep1/2 it'd have been shot down fairly easily.
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Old 2008-10-13, 09:48   Link #106
LoweGear
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Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata View Post
That would mean that the 0 Gundam had just normal E-Carbon armour, right?

Which would make it rather easy to take down. If it had tried what Setsuna did with Exia in S1 Ep1/2 it'd have been shot down fairly easily.
No definite conclusions to that, but given the highly "primitive" nature of the 0 Gundam in comparison to later Gundams, it's likely that it has only normal E-Carbon armor. AFAIK the only true innovations the 0 Gundam had in comparison to other mobile suits are its GN Drive and beam weapons.
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Old 2008-10-13, 10:29   Link #107
kari-no-sugata
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
No definite conclusions to that, but given the highly "primitive" nature of the 0 Gundam in comparison to later Gundams, it's likely that it has only normal E-Carbon armor. AFAIK the only true innovations the 0 Gundam had in comparison to other mobile suits are its GN Drive and beam weapons.
I like this idea that prototypes really were prototypes.

Gundam wasn't built in a day
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Old 2008-10-13, 10:54   Link #108
kari-no-sugata
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S1 vs S2 Gundams - design points / tradeoffs

The below is mostly speculation...

For S1, the Gundams designed by CB would presumably have been optimised to take on MS which don't use GN technology, for the most part. Lockon mentions how Exia's solid sword was an anti-Gundam device. The Trial System is another one. From that, it seems more like CB feared traitorous Gundam Meisters more than the technology leaking out.

On the other hand, the GN-X would probably have been designed explicitly to take down the CB Gundams.

However, for S2, CB's main targets are A-LAWs all of whose MS to date have GN technology. Until the re-appearance of CB, most of A-LAWS opposition would not.

So do we have a bit of role reversal here? (btw, I have no idea just how much CB weapons/armour can be tuned to attack or defend against specific other technology. I remember Tieria talking about compression ratios or something for GN Fields - not sure if that is related or not)

I should also note that it's also probable that CB have improved their weapons/armour in general anyway - ie should be better even without having a different design point, or different tradeoffs.

That could partly explain how the 00 could take down an Ahead with a single shot, though maybe the 00 has significantly better/purer/more compressed GN particles in the first place. I also noticed that in ep 1, the Exia's leg got cut off by a beam saber - but it took a few seconds. However, Seravee's beam saber sliced the GN-XIII in two rather easily.

Does anyone know of any specs / supporting documentation which confirms any of the above?

If the above speculation is broadly correct, then maybe the "custom" Aheads we see in the OP will have been tuned to taken on CB's Gundams - in both weapons and armour. If not, Graham is going to be a one-shot kill and won't have the speed advantage of last season.
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Old 2008-10-13, 14:27   Link #109
astranagun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata View Post

That could partly explain how the 00 could take down an Ahead with a single shot, though maybe the 00 has significantly better/purer/more compressed GN particles in the first place. I also noticed that in ep 1, the Exia's leg got cut off by a beam saber - but it took a few seconds. However, Seravee's beam saber sliced the GN-XIII in two rather easily.

Does anyone know of any specs / supporting documentation which confirms any of the above?

If the above speculation is broadly correct, then maybe the "custom" Aheads we see in the OP will have been tuned to taken on CB's Gundams - in both weapons and armour. If not, Graham is going to be a one-shot kill and won't have the speed advantage of last season.
For me the reason the Ahead was destroyed so easily was both for the fact that the power of the energy weapon(s) of 00 should be squared and that it was hit near the chest (in the GN drive area) .

Regarding Exia the leg was cutted instantly,what took a few seconds was the GN sword, in fact something similar happened to Dynames: a few seconds for the GN full shield and almost nothing for the chest.
So the beam saber power of the GN-X and Ahead should be more or less the same.
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Old 2008-10-13, 15:23   Link #110
bergarmak
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Quote:
For me the reason the Ahead was destroyed so easily was both for the fact that the power of the energy weapon(s) of 00 should be squared and that it was hit near the chest (in the GN drive area) .
in a general way
capability to destroy = power combined with velocity
A velocity bike could cut in two a car in lower move.

if the Ahead didn't want to be cut in two by the Gundam oo, he had to block his cutting before it get power and velocity at the time. Even if the two do the same move, the (faster + the powerfull) win, that was the potential of the Gundam OO.

Each energy could be translate in potential work as cutting, kicking....
But first to really conclude about which MS is powefull than other MS, we need also to know the pression move and the velocity move each MS structure (leg, arm, motor...) can provide.
And second we need to know the moment each energy was working (the impact point).
without all the caracteristics, it is difficult to say that Gundam oo is far better than a Ahead.

Often, the capacity of destruction is question of reaching vulnerabilility point (the skill of the pilote). The Dynames needs shield armor to protect his weak points (exemple articulations) from MS beam.

Last edited by bergarmak; 2008-10-13 at 15:57.
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Old 2008-10-13, 15:36   Link #111
RedWing
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Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata View Post
I like this idea that prototypes really were prototypes.

Gundam wasn't built in a day
Well really 00 is a 200 year old design which happens to work perfectly and is more powerful than anything seen before it.
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Old 2008-10-13, 16:05   Link #112
brightman
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Well really 00 is a 200 year old design which happens to work perfectly and is more powerful than anything seen before it.
Its a 200-year old theory... The technology itself is not 200 years old.
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Old 2008-10-13, 16:07   Link #113
darkprimus
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Well really 00 is a 200 year old design which happens to work perfectly and is more powerful than anything seen before it.
The idea for the twin drive is 200 years old, the rest of the tech is recent and it hardly works perfectly. Even Exia's drive wasn't syncing enough to start the thing and Ian was worried that they didn't have sufficiently advanced science to make the thing work in the first place. We're just lucky Setsuna is Gundam or otherwise the thing would have ended up blown to pieces.


Episode 2 was interesting *thoughtfully strokes non-existent beard*, very interesting. Well, it appears GN Drives use topological defects in their process. Now this makes sense in that a magnetic monopole can cause proton decay to occur, here's a link to paper about it, 1.55 MB. The monopole can be passed through any kind of matter and more or less instantly induce proton decay without being used up itself (hence it being a perfect catalyst) and that all works well with what I posted before and can be considered the "non-evaporative" part of the decay process they describe the GN Drive using. It's just that it doesn't make any sense.

Based on the tech level shown of the 00 universe they probably can't manufacture monopoles themselves (unless some startling discovery in physics was made), so they have to be essentially mining them from somewhere. The thing is though, that a monopole would be sufficiently valueable in that case that no one in their right mind would place it on a platform like a mobile suit where it could easily be destroyed and lost. Now CB might considering they are the ones who started it and needed that power, but the military doing more than like 10 GN suits, especially after CB's defeat, is stupid. You are working with a potential resource that is probably rarer than antimatter (which happens to have a price of ~$20 billion per gram). Would you use something that rare on a mobile suit?! Use those monopoles for power generation, levitation, and other things, but above all place them in locations where they are highly likely not to be blown up! Gah!!! I mean the thing allows for the potential to have 100% efficient matter to energy conversion without any limits on the fuel source since it works with anything made of protons and neutrons.
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Old 2008-10-13, 16:29   Link #114
Sides
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Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata View Post
So do we have a bit of role reversal here? (btw, I have no idea just how much CB weapons/armour can be tuned to attack or defend against specific other technology. I remember Tieria talking about compression ratios or something for GN Fields - not sure if that is related or not)
It was mentioned in episode 21 in the first season. So i reckon that if the beam have the same compression ratio as the GN field it will be neutralise, maybe in a similar way how soundwave can be neutralise.

Question about the twin drive, is it confirmed that it actual multiplies the output? My personal guess it works in a simliar way how batteries (or motors) works, so no matter if you have it running in series or in parallel, the output will be the same, hence i believe it can only acheive a maximal output that is double to a single drive.
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Old 2008-10-13, 18:20   Link #115
kari-no-sugata
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Originally Posted by astranagun View Post
For me the reason the Ahead was destroyed so easily was both for the fact that the power of the energy weapon(s) of 00 should be squared and that it was hit near the chest (in the GN drive area).
Doesn't look like it directly hit the GN Drive:


Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be anything to visually distinguish shots from the 00, in terms of size or colouring or other effects. Until they hit a target at least.


Quote:
Regarding Exia the leg was cutted instantly,what took a few seconds was the GN sword, in fact something similar happened to Dynames: a few seconds for the GN full shield and almost nothing for the chest. So the beam saber power of the GN-X and Ahead should be more or less the same.
Hmm. Maybe I should have re-reviewed that scene before posting earlier. Oops. Yes, it was the GN Sword that took time to cut. The leg might well have been near-instant. Cutting off both arms definitely was.

Further on this issue, shots from both the Ahead and the GN-XIII struck Exia without causing critical damage - definitely caused some damage though (hence smoke from the leg).


Anyway...

I think I'm going to have to re-think my theory from my earlier post a bit.

I still wonder how "Masked Man" is going to stand up to the 00. I know there's a tradition in mecha shows in general that any newly revealed mecha pawns everything on first outing but then becomes rather more ordinary by the 2nd. But, the 00 should have a big advantage in every single metric over a standard Ahead, so I have trouble imaging how even a customised Ahead could survive long - it's not like Setsuna is a poor pilot. Unless Billy can come up with a cheap-man's Trans-Am (lasts say 1 minute for 2x power upgrade with damage to pilot from excess red GN particles), any one-on-one combat with the 00 is going to be brief. Maybe Billy will have to start designing some MAs specifically designed to take down the 00...

Or maybe the 00 will have some kinda of limitation for a while.
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Old 2008-10-13, 18:24   Link #116
JackRydden224
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Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata View Post

I still wonder how "Masked Man" is going to stand up to the 00. I know there's a tradition in mecha shows in general that any newly revealed mecha pawns everything on first outing but then becomes rather more ordinary by the 2nd. But, the 00 should have a big advantage in every single metric over a standard Ahead, so I have trouble imaging how even a customised Ahead could survive long - it's not like Setsuna is a poor pilot. Unless Billy can come up with a cheap-man's Trans-Am (lasts say 1 minute for 2x power upgrade with damage to pilot from excess red GN particles), any one-on-one combat with the 00 is going to be brief. Maybe Billy will have to start designing some MAs specifically designed to take down the 00...

Or maybe the 00 will have some kinda of limitation for a while.
The Masked Man is going to confess his love again and he will seek an opening while Setsuna decides whether he likes Marina or his Gundam more.

Seriously though, this time around it is actually well stated within the series that Gundam 00 > everything else. I guess the Masked Man would have to rely on team work and pilot skills to take out CB.
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Old 2008-10-13, 19:53   Link #117
Hellbore
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Originally Posted by Sides View Post
It was mentioned in episode 21 in the first season. So i reckon that if the beam have the same compression ratio as the GN field it will be neutralise, maybe in a similar way how soundwave can be neutralise.

Question about the twin drive, is it confirmed that it actual multiplies the output? My personal guess it works in a simliar way how batteries (or motors) works, so no matter if you have it running in series or in parallel, the output will be the same, hence i believe it can only acheive a maximal output that is double to a single drive.
It was confirmed that the Twin Drive System squares the output of the GN Drive
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Old 2008-10-13, 20:15   Link #118
LoweGear
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Originally Posted by Sides View Post
Question about the twin drive, is it confirmed that it actual multiplies the output? My personal guess it works in a simliar way how batteries (or motors) works, so no matter if you have it running in series or in parallel, the output will be the same, hence i believe it can only acheive a maximal output that is double to a single drive.
Yes, it's been confirmed to square the output. In fact, the profile from which that info was first revealed (The HG 00 Gundam model kit manual) specifically said "it does not double the output, but squares it", paraphrasing. That they had to mention the actual difference points out to the 00 Gundam producing more than just twice twice the power.
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Old 2008-10-14, 00:38   Link #119
ashlay
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now if we only knew what the GN particle output rate was we could know exactly how much more power 00 has over it's brethren.
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Old 2008-10-14, 00:46   Link #120
SoldierOfDarkness
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Billy estimated that the Exia had an output 6x that of a Flag.

If 00 is squared then that would mean that it has an output 36x that of a Flag.

Now we just need to find the output for a flag
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