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Old 2013-12-09, 13:32   Link #121
Starshipw
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
That's a completely bogus example in the second paragraph, but yes - it's true that Azel should be judged on what he did do, not what he might have done. But that also includes the fact that he went along with this operation - in which a great number of innocent villagers likely were killed - rather than go against his clan. No one is suggesting that would have been easy, but again - it's the actions, not the doubts, that matter to those people who died.
For 9000 years cities had walls. For 5000 years, if it wasn't your neighbors that you were worried about, it was barbarians on horses. Nomads graze their herds, trade with the cities, and if times are desperate enough, raid those same cities. Even if it is the case that the leaders are being manipulated by the major powers, the average tribesman has little say over who or whether to raid. Why do you think that a peaceful little village has cannons?

What Azel has done is no small thing. He has spoken against the elders and their alliances. He has warned his sister and the village about the attack. Only the betrayal by the other clan sets these actions as anything less than treachery punishable by enslavement, banishment, or death. So his father's demise is lucky for him and his brothers if it makes him head of the family or even chief of the tribe. At any rate the villagers better take advantage of the situation and accept his surrender rather than beat him to death. He has killed more enemy than anyone else on the battlefield, not even counting the explosion he accidentally caused. As allies his horsemen coming in behind the cannons of the leaderless foe would finish this battle.
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Old 2013-12-09, 14:08   Link #122
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He attacked the village, that's a fucking huge thing for the villagers.

These things happen, but nobody should pretend that it is not important to the people involved.
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Old 2013-12-09, 18:42   Link #123
Starshipw
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For the characters it is always a huge thing. For one person soldier A is a hero. For another fighter B is the hero and A is the villain. In the story of the mice family, the cat is the villain. To the cat the mice are food for her hungry kittens and the dog is the villain. In the dog's story the cat is a nuisance, the man is a hero, and the wolves are villains. To the wolf cub fighting to survive in a hostile world, the pack leader is a hero and dogs and men are villains. To the eagle the fight between dogs and cats is nonsensical. That is why the author gives us a point of view character so we always have someone to cheer for.

I don't believe that we can judge characters from an eagle's viewpoint without both applying our own moral code and the character's. Azel has always been caught between what he believes is right and his duties and obedience to his clan. Even though he wishes that his sisters were treated better, he attempts to retrieve Amira but refuses to harm any villagers. The second time he was again in position to harm Amira's family but did not. He suffers his Dad's displeasure by speaking against the invasion plan and puts his whole clan in jeopardy by warning Amira.

Yes, if it was some other village he probably would have gone along and killed others in submission to the elder's authority, but he surprisingly is able to view those his sister loves as part of his own family. This is a pretty large leap even before he starts actively fighting to save them.
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Old 2013-12-09, 20:32   Link #124
Roger Rambo
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I think it sorta runs into the issue of if you think Azel is morally culpable in what happened...what are you supposed to do about it? Tribal society doesn't really live by the legal codes of a modern industrialized society. If people in this setting decide that Azel is morally culpable in the attack, "justice" will probably take the form of killing him in some particularly gruesome manner. This isn't the kind of place where Azel an accessory to a crime like this* gets 5-10 years. Either Azel will have a benefactor successfully argue that he shouldn't be held responsible for this mess...or he'll get torn to shreds. And I'm not sure anyone in this thread actually thinks Azel deserves to be gruesomely beaten to death.


...which surprisingly, doesn't seem to be something that Azel philosophically objects to at this point. He certainly seems to think the Villagers have a legit beef with him, and he's not exactly fighting back at this point. And stressing the kind of sins Azel is guilty of while he's standing there willingly as he's about to get lynched does seem to ring a bit hollow.


*Though really. Given the political autonomy demonstrated by the various tribes and the town in this situation, if we were to project any biased modern sensibility to judge this situation it'd probably be the laws of war. And under our modern conception of the laws of war enemy combatants are not judged to have personal moral culpability for their actions the same way we do with criminals.
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Old 2014-01-13, 18:22   Link #125
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End of the arc and Grandma cleans up the last bit of dirt. Awesome.
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Old 2014-01-14, 01:07   Link #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
I think it sorta runs into the issue of if you think Azel is morally culpable in what happened...what are you supposed to do about it? Tribal society doesn't really live by the legal codes of a modern industrialized society. If people in this setting decide that Azel is morally culpable in the attack, "justice" will probably take the form of killing him in some particularly gruesome manner. This isn't the kind of place where Azel an accessory to a crime like this* gets 5-10 years. Either Azel will have a benefactor successfully argue that he shouldn't be held responsible for this mess...or he'll get torn to shreds. And I'm not sure anyone in this thread actually thinks Azel deserves to be gruesomely beaten to death.


...which surprisingly, doesn't seem to be something that Azel philosophically objects to at this point. He certainly seems to think the Villagers have a legit beef with him, and he's not exactly fighting back at this point. And stressing the kind of sins Azel is guilty of while he's standing there willingly as he's about to get lynched does seem to ring a bit hollow.


*Though really. Given the political autonomy demonstrated by the various tribes and the town in this situation, if we were to project any biased modern sensibility to judge this situation it'd probably be the laws of war. And under our modern conception of the laws of war enemy combatants are not judged to have personal moral culpability for their actions the same way we do with criminals.
The thing is, that while the tribal society totally supports Azel in what he did and why.
It also supports that now that he failed and got captured, it is totes ok to brutally kill him.

I can forgive his actions (to a degree) for being to product of his surroundings, but that also means, that to be intellectually consistent, i need to let him face the "justice" of that society, which pretty much means getting killed (or paying huge blood fines, but i doubt he has money at this point).
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Old 2014-01-14, 13:41   Link #127
Starshipw
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Originally Posted by J4n1 View Post
The thing is, that while the tribal society totally supports Azel in what he did and why.
It also supports that now that he failed and got captured, it is totes ok to brutally kill him.

I can forgive his actions (to a degree) for being to product of his surroundings, but that also means, that to be intellectually consistent, i need to let him face the "justice" of that society, which pretty much means getting killed (or paying huge blood fines, but i doubt he has money at this point).
But the truth is that he did not actually kill any villagers so he owes no one any blood debt. He was a member of the invading force and so in an earlier time would have probably been enslaved, but after this chapter I think prosecution unlikely. Not only will an important family speak up for him (if you think the men might be hard to convince just ask Grandma) but the women witnessed his actions and the men at the barricades have been reminded that he fought for them. Now the army needs convincing to install him as tribal leader to prevent any more foolishness.
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Old 2014-01-14, 13:58   Link #128
J4n1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starshipw View Post
But the truth is that he did not actually kill any villagers so he owes no one any blood debt. He was a member of the invading force and so in an earlier time would have probably been enslaved, but after this chapter I think prosecution unlikely. Not only will an important family speak up for him (if you think the men might be hard to convince just ask Grandma) but the women witnessed his actions and the men at the barricades have been reminded that he fought for them. Now the army needs convincing to install him as tribal leader to prevent any more foolishness.
He might have not killed anyone.
But can it be proven? Should anyone take his word on it?
Fact remains, he was part of the attackers, and remained so until they were betrayed.
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Old 2014-01-14, 15:22   Link #129
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He might have not killed anyone.
But can it be proven? Should anyone take his word on it?
Fact remains, he was part of the attackers, and remained so until they were betrayed.
If none saw him kill anyone, then none has any personal grudge against him. The possitive things he did should easily outweight any stigma of being nominally part of the attacking force.
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Old 2014-01-14, 18:37   Link #130
Roger Rambo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J4n1 View Post
The thing is, that while the tribal society totally supports Azel in what he did and why.
It also supports that now that he failed and got captured, it is totes ok to brutally kill him.

I can forgive his actions (to a degree) for being to product of his surroundings, but that also means, that to be intellectually consistent, i need to let him face the "justice" of that society, which pretty much means getting killed (or paying huge blood fines, but i doubt he has money at this point).
I think this is the main problem with your entire line of reasoning.

On a meta level, since Azel is a fictional character, you can't exactly "let him" face punishment or anything...and on a less meta level, I don't think these tribal people would be very enthused with the idea of some outsider deciding who they should be holding grudges against and how they should deal with it. It's entirely up to the subjective discretion of the local yokels to decide whether Azel should be treated as an enemy, or to decide that certain actions on his part have earned him a bit of latitude.

It's important to remember that the same kind of honor system that often calls for violent blood feuds in circumstances that many modern people would consider irrational and crazy, also sometimes facilitates reconciliation/forgiveness by honorable conduct that modern people would also find just as irrational and crazy.

Spoiler for spoilers:
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Old 2014-03-10, 08:24   Link #131
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Newest Chapter: No. 36 in Her Garden...

Another new Bride? So, the series will follow Smith and the Stories of Brides he encountered along the way...Well, that means Otoyomegatari will go for a long run, since Smith himself are still a long way from Ankara...Laila & Laili were from The Aral Sea...He haven't even reached The Caspian Sea...

This new bride story is The Gilded Cage type - a far cry from the Independent Nomad Brides we've seen earlier. I don't have to say how beautiful Mori drew the Persian-styled Gardens; only have to wait and wonder how will Smith's arrival interact with Her story: Will he only take The Observer position like in Aral Sea or be more involved like when he met Talas...

The Amira story are pretty much concluded, no, Almost...there is no prominent source of conflict remaining for her part...Its only the fate of the Hargals are not yet concluded, but it certainly will.

...Its still a long way, and that need lots of time...Its just don't feel right or proper for Otoyomegatari to end with the arrival of Skobelev...No...

Last edited by cupumanager; 2014-03-10 at 08:39.
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Old 2014-03-10, 20:12   Link #132
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*reads first page*
I dub this new bride, BIRD BITCH!

*read last page*
...I dub this new bride, Postpartum depression bitch! (well, or just general loneliness/isolation bitch)


Also, was I the only one who noticed that Kaoru Mori was VERY particular about now showing the husbands face?
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Old 2014-03-10, 21:05   Link #133
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The Amira story are pretty much concluded, no, Almost...there is no prominent source of conflict remaining for her part...Its only the fate of the Hargals are not yet concluded, but it certainly will.

...Its still a long way, and that need lots of time...Its just don't feel right or proper for Otoyomegatari to end with the arrival of Skobelev...No...
It is not over yet. Amira and Karluk have not even consummated their marriage. Any story of a nomad bride is not finished until there is a little Karluk crawling around on the floor.

You can't say it often enough. The artwork in this series is superb.
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Old 2014-03-10, 21:13   Link #134
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This s interesting. I guess Mori-sensei wants to show that material need is not what's needed for a bride to be happy. The new bride has everything material-wise, yet it's clear(currently) that she's not even half as happy as Amira have half of what he got from her husband.

Although the contrast storytelling employed here have lots of potential, I really hope Mori-sensei doesn't fall to the cliche of "rich people can't be happy" too deep.
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Old 2014-03-12, 01:25   Link #135
cupumanager
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It is not over yet. Amira and Karluk have not even consummated their marriage. Any story of a nomad bride is not finished until there is a little Karluk crawling around on the floor.

You can't say it often enough. The artwork in this series is superb.
Of course. What I mean is, after The fate of the remaining Hargals are settled, and Pariya get hooked up with someone, Its pretty much smooth sailing of Peaceful Slice-of-life we all love to see...

...Of course that if there will be no more new threats till the end of the series...After all, The Russians are Coming...
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Old 2014-03-12, 12:21   Link #136
Starshipw
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It would be very ironic if the setting turns out to be 1854, the Crimean War and the Charge of the Light Brigade. History just goes round and round.
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Old 2014-03-14, 13:51   Link #137
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Its rather unclear, but I'd say its Late 60's or 70's, judging from Yusuf's Bolt Action Rifle, coinciding with Increased Russian Expedition into Central Asia.

Interestingly, Anis marks a shift of the type of Brides we'll encounter in the future: Since Smith take The Southern Caravan Route through Khiva, Iran, North Iraq, Syria, Cilicia, to Ankara; the possibility of encountering independent girls just like from the Steppe Nomads of Central Asia will be slimmer.

Smith currently I suspect is around Northern Iran by now, judging from...The Persian Cat and Gardens...the clothing are also different from the nomads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Also, was I the only one who noticed that Kaoru Mori was VERY particular about now showing the husbands face?
He have Sasami's brother secret superpower of Universal Face Masking?

Last edited by cupumanager; 2014-03-18 at 00:56.
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Old 2014-03-27, 21:43   Link #138
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Otoyomegatari wins the Manga Taisho, after finishing 2nd last year. Robust congrats to Mori-sensei.

So - in the last week, Sangetsu no Lion and Otoyomegatari have won the two top awards in manga. Solid evidence that this is a medium that's thriving creatively.
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Old 2014-05-14, 03:59   Link #139
cupumanager
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Chapter 37: Sister Bride

...uhh, dunno, the explanation illustrations for the chapter title is so...

Ah, Kaoru Mori...so good at drawing womanly curves...and you can clearly tell that she loves and enjoys doing that...

Yep, this isn't the Steppes anymore; no way would we see Girls riding horses or throwing fishes at unsuspecting passerbys around these parts.
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Old 2014-05-14, 04:08   Link #140
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At first I thought it was about the husband having another wife so the first one won't be alone, never expected it to turn out like this.
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