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Old 2008-10-20, 14:30   Link #21
Shadow Kira01
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Originally Posted by RAVNEN View Post
Thank god the Seirans are dead now.
Hopefully in the next installment of GS there gonna be a lot of new things. Like ORB,EA & ZAFT stand together to face new threat. Destiny gundam 2.0 or maybe Minerva return with Yzak Joule as it captain.
Since ORB, Rengo, and ZAFT are true enemies of each others, it wouldn't make any sense for them to work together against a new threat, unless its the aliens from the Super Robot Wars series that intend to conquer Earth or the space colonies by force.

ORB seeks pacifism, ending all wars by the means of armed intervention using a single mobile suit, the Strike Freedom. Pretty lame, considering that Yamato Kira will end up fighting against a bunch of ace pilots at once. Rengo seeks to dominate the world under the idea "if they want to make peace, make peace with them; if not, crush them by all means". ZAFT, on the other hand is doing exactly the same thing as Rengo. However, the funds and resources on the ZAFT side is weaker than Rengo. On the other hand, ZAFT is more deceptive and ambitious than Rengo, a more dangerous enemy of ORB. ZAFT claims to seek peace, while expanding their military power to the point that it is obviously made for the purpose of destruction rather than self-defense. And thus, the three powers of the Gundam SEED Universe will not be able to work together.

EDIT: Almost forgot.. By the end of Gundam SEED Destiny, ORB gets two extra mobile suits: Akatsuki piloted by Captain Mu La Flaga and Strike Rouge by Representative Cagalli. That makes 3 mobile suits including the Strike Freedom on ORB's side. (^-^)

Last edited by Shadow Kira01; 2008-10-20 at 14:36. Reason: added extra information regarding GSD
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Old 2008-10-20, 15:18   Link #22
blitz1/2
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Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
Since ORB, Rengo, and ZAFT are true enemies of each others, it wouldn't make any sense for them to work together against a new threat, unless its the aliens from the Super Robot Wars series that intend to conquer Earth or the space colonies by force.

ORB seeks pacifism, ending all wars by the means of armed intervention using a single mobile suit, the Strike Freedom. Pretty lame, considering that Yamato Kira will end up fighting against a bunch of ace pilots at once. Rengo seeks to dominate the world under the idea "if they want to make peace, make peace with them; if not, crush them by all means". ZAFT, on the other hand is doing exactly the same thing as Rengo. However, the funds and resources on the ZAFT side is weaker than Rengo. On the other hand, ZAFT is more deceptive and ambitious than Rengo, a more dangerous enemy of ORB. ZAFT claims to seek peace, while expanding their military power to the point that it is obviously made for the purpose of destruction rather than self-defense. And thus, the three powers of the Gundam SEED Universe will not be able to work together.

EDIT: Almost forgot.. By the end of Gundam SEED Destiny, ORB gets two extra mobile suits: Akatsuki piloted by Captain Mu La Flaga and Strike Rouge by Representative Cagalli. That makes 3 mobile suits including the Strike Freedom on ORB's side. (^-^)

i thought SF would be with ZAFT, Kira joined them afterall.
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Old 2008-10-20, 15:53   Link #23
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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
And Cagalli did not explain her action because she CAN'T, because she didn't actually DO the ACTION. It was the Seirans. . .
You're right on one thing: Cagalli couldn't explain her actions during the conference after the battle, but that's because trying to actually rationalize what she did would make her look like a total moron, completely insane, or a mixture of the two.

You're wrong on what she is and isn't responsible for. When she launched in Akatsuki only to intervene ZAFT suits that were looking for Djibril, provoke Destiny Gundam into a fight, and sit on her thumbs when Kira showed up and further intervened with no idea what ZAFT was trying to do except defile Holy Motherland Orb, that was entirely by her own choice.
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Old 2008-10-20, 18:33   Link #24
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Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
EDIT: Almost forgot.. By the end of Gundam SEED Destiny, ORB gets two extra mobile suits: Akatsuki piloted by Captain Mu La Flaga and Strike Rouge by Representative Cagalli. That makes 3 mobile suits including the Strike Freedom on ORB's side. (^-^)
Err....Strike Rouge is no more coz Kira take it to save Eternal & its heavily damage,I think no Strike after this. SFreedom maybe go with ZAFT coz Kira join them at the of ep 50 plus version,maybe to protect Lacus.

It could be Destiny gundam join Orb because Shinn want to protect his homeland,if only Destiny been repaired. After all Orb has one of the best MS facility & factory.
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Old 2008-10-20, 18:40   Link #25
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Originally Posted by RAVNEN View Post
Err....Strike Rouge is no more coz Kira take it to save Eternal & its heavily damage,I think no Strike after this. SFreedom maybe go with ZAFT coz Kira join them at the of ep 50 plus version,maybe to protect Lacus.

It could be Destiny gundam join Orb because Shinn want to protect his homeland,if only Destiny been repaired. After all Orb has one of the best MS facility & factory.
Strike Rouge wasn't damaged beyond repair, though, wouldn't be hard for them to repair it. Just because there's no use for it in the show anymore doesn't mean it wasn't scrapped.
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Old 2008-10-20, 19:11   Link #26
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Originally Posted by Belldanders View Post
You're right on one thing: Cagalli couldn't explain her actions during the conference after the battle, but that's because trying to actually rationalize what she did would make her look like a total moron, completely insane, or a mixture of the two.

You're wrong on what she is and isn't responsible for. When she launched in Akatsuki only to intervene ZAFT suits that were looking for Djibril, provoke Destiny Gundam into a fight, and sit on her thumbs when Kira showed up and further intervened with no idea what ZAFT was trying to do except defile Holy Motherland Orb, that was entirely by her own choice.
Cagalli ordered the arrest of the two idiots, and Djbril, the problem was that Djbril bribed the Orb guards, which Cagalli couldn't have known since they where defending Orb from being conquered by Zaft.
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Old 2008-10-20, 19:19   Link #27
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Originally Posted by Belldanders View Post
You're right on one thing: Cagalli couldn't explain her actions during the conference after the battle, but that's because trying to actually rationalize what she did would make her look like a total moron, completely insane, or a mixture of the two.
A head of state has an obligation to fight back when her country is invaded. While the ZAFT forces claimed that all they were after was the arrest of Djibril, it was a lie, and everyone knew it. Moreover, the lie was revealed by their tactics: they attacked the Orb government buildings, conveniently killing off most of the government, and they did not withdraw after Djibril had escaped. True insanity would have been to do nothing in the face of such provocation.
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Old 2008-10-20, 19:43   Link #28
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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
And that Athrun, who is Lacus' ex-fiancee and still good friend, is prolly BANGING her, as we speak.
yeh everyday of the week, and twice on sundays....

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Old 2008-10-20, 19:59   Link #29
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
A head of state has an obligation to fight back when her country is invaded. While the ZAFT forces claimed that all they were after was the arrest of Djibril, it was a lie, and everyone knew it. Moreover, the lie was revealed by their tactics: they attacked the Orb government buildings, conveniently killing off most of the government, and they did not withdraw after Djibril had escaped. True insanity would have been to do nothing in the face of such provocation.
I totally forgot about the destruction of a large portion of the government. Zaft wanted world domination same as the Earth Alliance, it was the same power struggle as the last series so I see no need to root for a different side now.
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Old 2008-10-20, 20:20   Link #30
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I wonder why ORB didnt built a defensive mechanism in place like the cities in Neon-Evengelion...where all the buildings would retract underground with thick steel walls coming up....They look rich enough and the scale of the country/city itself is possible...
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Old 2008-10-20, 21:01   Link #31
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Cagalli ordered the arrest of the two idiots, and Djbril, the problem was that Djbril bribed the Orb guards, which Cagalli couldn't have known since they where defending Orb from being conquered by Zaft.
Cagalli couldn't have known because she didn't bother spending two seconds to stop and look herself, and just went on the ignorant bias that Durandal must have been lying.

Quote:
A head of state has an obligation to fight back when her country is invaded.
We're discussing a fictional country that considers a guy who blew himself up to escape fighting back invaders in the previous war to be a saint.

That aside, a head of state has a greater obligation to be a little better than a hotheaded biased idiot to foreign powers and not provoke larger attacks in the first place.

Quote:
While the ZAFT forces claimed that all they were after was the arrest of Djibril, it was a lie, and everyone knew it.
But uh, it wasn't. ZAFT was correct in asserting that Djibril was there the entire time. ZAFT was also correct in measuring him to be the most dangerous threat at the time, seeing as he immediately murdered millions of civilian Coordinators for no reason afterward.

Quote:
Moreover, the lie was revealed by their tactics: they attacked the Orb government buildings, conveniently killing off most of the government
ZAFT's tactics of trying to burn Djibril out of key targets in a single country, after requesting that country to turn him over repeatedly, prove that they were there to conquer the world.

Yeah, see, this is what Cagalli and Lacus were saying after the invasion. This path of logic still makes no sense to anyone who actually thinks about it four years later.

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and they did not withdraw after Djibril had escaped.
Yes. Yes, they did. Talia ordered everybody to turn around after Djibril's ship was out of reach, and Shinn and Rey followed the retreat flares. <_<
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Old 2008-10-20, 22:36   Link #32
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We're discussing a fictional country that considers a guy who blew himself up to escape fighting back invaders in the previous war to be a saint.
Irrelevant. Orb may be a fictional country, but that doesn't mean that it's so substantially different from a real one that we can remove all standard connotations of nationhood from it.

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Originally Posted by Belldanders View Post
That aside, a head of state has a greater obligation to be a little better than a hotheaded biased idiot to foreign powers and not provoke larger attacks in the first place.
Incorrect. Heads of state are supposed to be biased against the country they are at war with.

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Originally Posted by Belldanders View Post
But uh, it wasn't. ZAFT was correct in asserting that Djibril was there the entire time. ZAFT was also correct in measuring him to be the most dangerous threat at the time, seeing as he immediately murdered millions of civilian Coordinators for no reason afterward.
As their military actions show, that was merely a pretext for their invasion.

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Originally Posted by Belldanders View Post
ZAFT's tactics of trying to burn Djibril out of key targets in a single country, after requesting that country to turn him over repeatedly, prove that they were there to conquer the world.
That's pure nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Belldanders View Post
Yes. Yes, they did. Talia ordered everybody to turn around after Djibril's ship was out of reach, and Shinn and Rey followed the retreat flares. <_<
You're correct, my apologies. It doesn't really change much since the ZAFT attack was more along the lines of a general invasion. Besides, if PLANT was interested in avoiding military conflict with Orb, it's not as if there was nothing else they could do besides invading.


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Originally Posted by Ichimaru View Post
I wonder why ORB didnt built a defensive mechanism in place like the cities in Neon-Evengelion...where all the buildings would retract underground with thick steel walls coming up....They look rich enough and the scale of the country/city itself is possible...
Every dollar spent in building such a defense would have been one less dollar for rebuilding their military. Without an effective military force to repel attackers, static fortifications like this would be useless.
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Old 2008-10-21, 06:11   Link #33
Paladinoras
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Originally Posted by Belldanders View Post
Cagalli couldn't have known because she didn't bother spending two seconds to stop and look herself, and just went on the ignorant bias that Durandal must have been lying.
And that is because. .. . ZAFT is invading them, right? And she DID believe them, that is why she ordered the citywide search for Djibril. Of course, she could not DEVOTE everything to find THEM, because ZAFT is INVADING them.

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Originally Posted by Belldanders View Post
We're discussing a fictional country that considers a guy who blew himself up to escape fighting back invaders in the previous war to be a saint.
And this is relevant. .. .why? And ORB is modelled after Japan, which has a rich history of sacrificing themselves for what they believe is a greater cause. Of course, you would not understand this feeling because you were not conditioned to have the feeling. And of course, therefore, your opinion on this matter is practically. . . worthless.

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Originally Posted by Belldanders View Post
That aside, a head of state has a greater obligation to be a little better than a hotheaded biased idiot to foreign powers and not provoke larger attacks in the first place.
And she is at fault here, why?? She was not the one who started the war, the Seirans did. And as 4Tran has said, head of states are supposed to be biased to their own country. And what do you mean provoke larger attacks?

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Originally Posted by Belldanders View Post
But uh, it wasn't. ZAFT was correct in asserting that Djibril was there the entire time. ZAFT was also correct in measuring him to be the most dangerous threat at the time, seeing as he immediately murdered millions of civilian Coordinators for no reason afterward.
Yes, yes, and yes. And yet, this does not give them an excuse to FRIGGIN INVADE a country. They could have used diplomatic ventures or something. And you seem to forget something. Had ZAFT not flushed Djibril out of ORB, he would not reach the moon base, which means he cannot USE Requiem. Cagalli is already coming back anyway.

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Originally Posted by Belldanders View Post
ZAFT's tactics of trying to burn Djibril out of key targets in a single country, after requesting that country to turn him over repeatedly, prove that they were there to conquer the world.
No, that is a tactic called BLITZKRIEG! You know, the tactic used by the Germans in WW2?? And I don't think that they were trying to flush anyone out from the countries. And again, the actions of ZAFT is only a slightly more advanced version of "WAAAAA, YOU'RE LYING!! I AM GOING THERE AND TAKING THEM FROM YOU, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!!!"

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Originally Posted by Belldanders View Post
Yeah, see, this is what Cagalli and Lacus were saying after the invasion. This path of logic still makes no sense to anyone who actually thinks about it four years later.
Which is true. Unless of course, we apply your awesome logic of bombing important GOVERNMENT buildings which could potentially harbor innocent civilians. And kill about everyone else. To flush out ONE guy. ONE. ONE. ONE.

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Originally Posted by Belldanders View Post
Yes. Yes, they did. Talia ordered everybody to turn around after Djibril's ship was out of reach, and Shinn and Rey followed the retreat flares. <_<
. . . Because Kira and Athrun were on the verge of taking them out. And that the ORB defence forces had actually managed to take out a big chunk of the ZAFT forces by the time both of them are done.
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Old 2008-10-21, 06:46   Link #34
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Fukada doesn't understand about the tradition, historic, politics of war.
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Old 2008-10-21, 06:57   Link #35
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Gilbert Durandal has sure make ZAFT become like EA in GSD. I don't know why,but I prefer Patrick Zala lead Zaft.

I got a question,did Gilbert easily give EA the chance to stole those gundam at Armory One?
The so called armory look like it does'nt have proper security.

Actually I like ZAFT nation in early of ep of GS & GSD. In GS,they pull "Operation Capture Gundam" at Heliopolis & in GSD they build cool gundam.
But when ZAFT attack Orb only to catch one SOB named Lord Djibril,now I don't like Zaft at all.

I wonder how ORB will recover after ZAFT invasion.
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Old 2008-10-21, 08:07   Link #36
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Fukada doesn't understand about the tradition, historic, politics of war.
Technically, he did not write the script. His wife did.
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Old 2008-10-21, 10:45   Link #37
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Technically, he did not write the script. His wife did.
His wife did all the script? Darn it. I've watch GS & GSD dozens time,i haven't know his wife did script until now. Darn it.

Anyway I like GSD & GS,in fact i'm still watch it to kill time before gundam 00 next ep. I thanks Fukuda for make GS & GSD,the anime that has enlighten me about the wonderful world gundam. Darn it.

Oh no!!!, now I'm sound like Shinn Asuka,darn it.
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Old 2008-10-21, 10:54   Link #38
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I thought his wife wasn't 100% responsible for the script in seed? but his wife is 100% responsible in seed destiny...that's why we got this "beautiful" story and recap in seed-d XD

Someone please correct me if I am wrong

Sincerely,
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Old 2008-10-21, 11:01   Link #39
Neku
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I thought his wife wasn't 100% responsible for the script in seed? but his wife is 100% responsible in seed destiny...that's why we got this "beautiful" story and recap in seed-d XD

Someone please correct me if I am wrong

Sincerely,
justavisitor
You are not wrong, but I think Paladin was talking about SEED Destiny. So technically both are correct. Just a little misunderstanding.

I see this thread was sprouted from the Shinn and Kira one. I wonder what thread would this one surface.
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Old 2008-10-21, 21:49   Link #40
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Yes, yes, and yes. And yet, this does not give them an excuse to FRIGGIN INVADE a country. They could have used diplomatic ventures or something.
To be fair, PLANT was already at war with Orb, and they are thus perfectly justified in their invasion. Likewise though, Orb is also perfectly justified in doing whatever they can to destroy PLANT's forces and their capability to fight. One of the things I found most appealing about the geopolitics in Seed Destiny was that most of the actions of the belligerents are justifiable to one degree or another.

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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
And you seem to forget something. Had ZAFT not flushed Djibril out of ORB, he would not reach the moon base, which means he cannot USE Requiem. Cagalli is already coming back anyway.
That's not quite fair. Djibril's presence had no effect on the construction of REQUIEM, so it would have been ready to hit PLANT regardless. There's plenty of anti-Coordinator sentiment among those running REQUIEM, so someone was certain to fire it off sooner or later.

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Originally Posted by PzIVf3 View Post
Fukada doesn't understand about the tradition, historic, politics of war.
While I'm not really a fan of either Fukuda or Morosawa's work, they actually did a better job in those regards in Seed and Destiny than is found in most other Gundam TV shows.

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I see this thread was sprouted from the Shinn and Kira one. I wonder what thread would this one surface.
Nothing. There's plenty of other threads to discuss Morosawa and Fukuda in.
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