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Old 2008-10-23, 06:00   Link #61
Paladinoras
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Originally Posted by Ichimaru View Post
Mu La Flaga is biggest bs pilot plot ive ever seen, the dude was a scrub of a pilot in SEED, and then in DESTINY his on the same playing field with Athrun/kira/shinn...overrated
Ah, you have no idea what you are talking about are you? Mindless biased thinking, that's all. I sympathize.

He is not known as the Endymion Eagle because he has a mascot which is pet eagle he got from some place called Endymion you know. . .

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Did Durandal himself want to capture Djibril? No, he didn't. He had far more to gain by having Djibril around - any damage he managed to inflict on PLANT would also give Durandal greater justification for extreme responses. It's effectively Naomi Campbell's "Shock Doctorine" in anime form. The invasion of Orb itself is a good example: Durandal had suggested that he was opposed to unnecessary offensive moves on the part of ZAFT, so it would have been difficult to justify an attack on Orb. Djibril's presence gave him the opportunity to remove Orb as a factor that had the potential of upsetting his plans. It's also worth noting that Durandal's goals were not really the same as PLANT's goals. PLANT certainly would have wanted to capture Djibril
And that was my second point. You took the letters from my keyboard. Bravo. It is obvious that the invasion of ORB was merely a way to further his Destiny Plan.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The troops in charge of REQUIEM were all fanatics to begin with, and in their minds, there'd be nothing to lose by pasting the PLANT colonies. Keep in mind that they hated Coordinators, and that ZAFT wasn't particularly well known for mercy (see Gibraltar).
Maybe they had hated Coordinators and that they were fanatical, but they are in no way stupid enough to fire at the ZAFT colonies and just kill civilians only. And if ZAFT is also not known for their mercy, well, all the less reason for them to attack PLANT then. Plus, again, they no longer have reinforcements from Earth if the ZAFT forces attacked them. Had Djibril not told them to fire, they probably would take more time before they fire. Or not, they would have fired REQUIEM a long time ago, ne?

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
There never was any real negotiation. The timeline was: PLANT demanded that Djibril be turned over, Yuna said that he wasn't there, and PLANT invaded right afterwards without so much as giving a response.
Yes. Exactly. PLANT did not even declare war and give the ORB government time to evacuate its citizens, an act which I find. . . disgraceful.

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Originally Posted by PzIVf3 View Post
Can't you read the close parenthesis sentence?
What sentence?
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Old 2008-10-23, 06:26   Link #62
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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
Yes. Exactly. PLANT did not even declare war and give the ORB government time to evacuate its citizens, an act which I find. . . disgraceful.?
Yeah,ZAFT is disgraceful & dishonorably by attacking ORB. Many innocent people died because of that,man I hate ZAFT. Oh no i turn into Blue Cosmos.

I was wondering did Gilbert Durandal plan the whole thing that lead to 2nd Valentine Day war?
I'm curios how he got the Destroy schematics,I've heard some rumor that he have join & leave Blue Cosmos before GSD.

If that is true,then Durandal is like Emperor Palpatine & Kira Yamato is Luke Skywalker.

Last edited by RAVNEN; 2008-10-23 at 06:27. Reason: Canard Pars,Dreadnought launching......
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Old 2008-10-23, 07:31   Link #63
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Originally Posted by RAVNEN View Post
Yeah,ZAFT is disgraceful & dishonorably by attacking ORB. Many innocent people died because of that,man I hate ZAFT. Oh no i turn into Blue Cosmos.

I was wondering did Gilbert Durandal plan the whole thing that lead to 2nd Valentine Day war?
I'm curios how he got the Destroy schematics,I've heard some rumor that he have join & leave Blue Cosmos before GSD.

If that is true,then Durandal is like Emperor Palpatine & Kira Yamato is Luke Skywalker.
No, you're not blue cosmos. Blue cosmos kill Coordinator civilians, must repeat "For the preservation of our blue and pure world!" every 5 min,
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Old 2008-10-23, 08:34   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
Maybe they had hated Coordinators and that they were fanatical, but they are in no way stupid enough to fire at the ZAFT colonies and just kill civilians only. And if ZAFT is also not known for their mercy, well, all the less reason for them to attack PLANT then. Plus, again, they no longer have reinforcements from Earth if the ZAFT forces attacked them. Had Djibril not told them to fire, they probably would take more time before they fire. Or not, they would have fired REQUIEM a long time ago, ne?
I might be recalling incorrectly, but I thought that they were just finishing up REQUIEM when Djibril arrived. In any case, his personal presence wasn't required - he could have simply called them and told them to shoot. Even if REQUIEM wasn't just completed, they were probably just holding back so that Djibril could have the honor of being present as it fired.

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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
Yes. Exactly. PLANT did not even declare war and give the ORB government time to evacuate its citizens, an act which I find. . . disgraceful.
Orb and PLANT were already at war before the invasion so there's no need to declare it again. I can't fault PLANT for this since it's foolish to give an enemy a warning before launching an attack.

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Originally Posted by RAVNEN View Post
I was wondering did Gilbert Durandal plan the whole thing that lead to 2nd Valentine Day war?
I don't know if it's confirmed anywhere, but Durandal had a lot to gain by having the Cosmic Era 73 war start when it did. Moreover, even if he wasn't the one who orchestrated all of the prewar events, he certainly took advantage of them. It's also almost certain that he knew certain details about events before they happened.

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Originally Posted by RAVNEN View Post
I'm curios how he got the Destroy schematics,I've heard some rumor that he have join & leave Blue Cosmos before GSD.
Not quite. Durandal was a member of LOGOS and his followers had completely infiltrated the EA before the war began. It also stands to reason that he knew of the EA's weaknesses and that ZAFT's military preparations were designed to exploit those weaknesses. My pet theory is that Destiny and Legend were purposefully made to defeat the mobile armors the EA had invested so much in.
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Old 2008-10-23, 08:46   Link #65
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I wonder how did they get the resources to built S.Freedom, I. Justice plus the 3 Doms from the emptied space?
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Old 2008-10-23, 09:20   Link #66
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I might be recalling incorrectly, but I thought that they were just finishing up REQUIEM when Djibril arrived. In any case, his personal presence wasn't required - he could have simply called them and told them to shoot. Even if REQUIEM wasn't just completed, they were probably just holding back so that Djibril could have the honor of being present as it fired.
Well, no sources ever claimed that, so I cannot be sure. Yes, but calling I think is too risky. If it was intercepted, they are screwed.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Orb and PLANT were already at war before the invasion so there's no need to declare it again. I can't fault PLANT for this since it's foolish to give an enemy a warning before launching an attack.
I know. And the Seirans are partly to blame for not releasing evacuation warnings. But they had not EXPECTED an attack. They thought that ZAFT would turn away when they said that Djibril was not there. Foolish, I know. And I don't expect the ZAFT forces to spread out their plan of attack on the faces of the ORB leaders. But they could have not SPECIFICALLY attacked the civilian structures.
Or if they had planned to, then by god, send a warning or something.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Not quite. Durandal was a member of LOGOS and his followers had completely infiltrated the EA before the war began. It also stands to reason that he knew of the EA's weaknesses and that ZAFT's military preparations were designed to exploit those weaknesses. My pet theory is that Destiny and Legend were purposefully made to defeat the mobile armors the EA had invested so much in.
Durandal was a member of LOGOS?? Where did you get that?

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Originally Posted by PzIVf3 View Post
I wonder how did they get the resources to built S.Freedom, I. Justice plus the 3 Doms from the emptied space?
Terminal is in no way short of funds. Lacus Clyne may be hiding in a small island off the coast of the Pacific, but she is far from destitute. Plus, Terminal supporters are prolly rich and would not be hesitant in supplying them with lots of money.
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Old 2008-10-23, 11:49   Link #67
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Originally Posted by PzIVf3
I wonder how did they get the resources to built S.Freedom, I. Justice plus the 3 Doms from the emptied space?
It wasn't really empty space since they had a full-blown factory and a makeshift space dock in the vicinity. Besides, Lacus' followers stole all sorts of things from ZAFT, from plans to partially completed mobile suits to personnel and so forth. Heck, given the Clyne connections, I wouldn't be all that surprised if the people who completed the work on Strike Freedom and so on were the same people who designed it in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Paladinoras
Well, no sources ever claimed that, so I cannot be sure. Yes, but calling I think is too risky. If it was intercepted, they are screwed.
Why? It's no more risky than any other kind of battlefield communications. Besides, it'd be in code - something like "Execute Plan A."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladinoras
Foolish, I know. And I don't expect the ZAFT forces to spread out their plan of attack on the faces of the ORB leaders. But they could have not SPECIFICALLY attacked the civilian structures.
Or if they had planned to, then by god, send a warning or something.
One of the great advantages of an attacking force is that it gets to choose the time and location of their attack. Any time it tells an enemy that they plan to attack and they follow through, they're giving away that important advantage, and they're going to lose lives for doing so. I can't assign the slightest blame for ZAFT not giving a warning beforehand. It'd be like Napoleon telling the Allies that he planned to attack through Belgium ahead of time.

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Originally Posted by Paladinoras
Durandal was a member of LOGOS?? Where did you get that?
There's no specific mention of that, but Durandal had information on LOGOS that should have been impossible for an outsider to get. Djibril's reaction to Durandal outing them also indicates a closer relationship: instead of saying "How'd he know that?" it was "Damn that Durandal (for doing that)!". The latter carried a strong sense of "why'd he ruin things like that - I thought we had an arrangement".

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Originally Posted by Paladinoras
Terminal is in no way short of funds. Lacus Clyne may be hiding in a small island off the coast of the Pacific, but she is far from destitute. Plus, Terminal supporters are prolly rich and would not be hesitant in supplying them with lots of money.
Just as a clarification: Lacus' supporters and Terminal are two separate organizations.
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Old 2008-10-23, 12:09   Link #68
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I've one question, did ZAFT avoid killing civilian when they attack ORB?

I watch GSD,I don't know if the sub are right but I think some Zaft commander tell ZAFT forces to avoid civilian structure & concetrate on the Parliment building.

Anyway i like Shiho Hahnefuss,hopefully Sunrise wont kill her but put her in the Seed movie. Finally Yzak Joule can have a girlfriend.
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Old 2008-10-23, 12:12   Link #69
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I wonder how did they get the resources to built S.Freedom, I. Justice plus the 3 Doms from the emptied space?
Well, according to one of the Strike Freedom model's spec sheets, the Strike Freedom was originally built by ZAFT, meant for mass-production so they'd win any war. However, either Clyne Faction or Terminal managed to steal the Strike Freedom, and modified it for use by Kira, resulting in the over-powered monstrosity that was in GSD.
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Old 2008-10-23, 19:37   Link #70
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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
Ah, you have no idea what you are talking about are you? Mindless biased thinking, that's all. I sympathize.

He is not known as the Endymion Eagle because he has a mascot which is pet eagle he got from some place called Endymion you know. . .
It's the Hawk of Endymion actually
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Old 2008-10-23, 20:06   Link #71
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It's the Hawk of Endymion actually
Fine, he got a pet hawk from Endymion then.
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Old 2008-10-23, 23:35   Link #72
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Originally Posted by RAVNEN View Post
I've one question, did ZAFT avoid killing civilian when they attack ORB?

I watch GSD,I don't know if the sub are right but I think some Zaft commander tell ZAFT forces to avoid civilian structure & concetrate on the Parliment building.

Anyway i like Shiho Hahnefuss,hopefully Sunrise wont kill her but put her in the Seed movie. Finally Yzak Joule can have a girlfriend.
Yes the subs is correct. The Zaft forces did follow order there commander accordingly to avoid killing civilian area and engage only the military and the Parliment building. As you can see the Zaft flying mobile suit sortie flying over the civilian area and they did not engaged everything they sighted (someone here claiming the Zaft will destroyed everything in sighted). Another thing, a single Astray is at the middle of busy traffic congestion firing above of the attacker and the attacker did not response to counter attack.

Last edited by PzIVf3; 2008-10-23 at 23:45. Reason: Zaft no intention to invade there are not barbarians.
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Old 2008-10-24, 08:32   Link #73
Paladinoras
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It wasn't really empty space since they had a full-blown factory and a makeshift space dock in the vicinity. Besides, Lacus' followers stole all sorts of things from ZAFT, from plans to partially completed mobile suits to personnel and so forth. Heck, given the Clyne connections, I wouldn't be all that surprised if the people who completed the work on Strike Freedom and so on were the same people who designed it in the first place.
Yes, my point exactly.

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Why? It's no more risky than any other kind of battlefield communications. Besides, it'd be in code - something like "Execute Plan A."
Heh, guess so. But Djibril is not the type of person who would wanna miss the chance of personally killing millions of Coordinators himself. And you know, the existence of the REQUIEM itself is strange. How could ZAFT miss such a big floating thing in the middle of space?

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
One of the great advantages of an attacking force is that it gets to choose the time and location of their attack. Any time it tells an enemy that they plan to attack and they follow through, they're giving away that important advantage, and they're going to lose lives for doing so. I can't assign the slightest blame for ZAFT not giving a warning beforehand. It'd be like Napoleon telling the Allies that he planned to attack through Belgium ahead of time.
Yeah, I guess in war, you have no choice but to accept the harsh reality and take every advantage you get, right? It's just my humanitarian side speaking.. .

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There's no specific mention of that, but Durandal had information on LOGOS that should have been impossible for an outsider to get. Djibril's reaction to Durandal outing them also indicates a closer relationship: instead of saying "How'd he know that?" it was "Damn that Durandal (for doing that)!". The latter carried a strong sense of "why'd he ruin things like that - I thought we had an arrangement".
Maybe he has good spies. Or were friends with Djibril. I highly doubt that he was a member of LOGOS though. If anyone in LOGOS ratted him out, he would lose all trust of PLANT.

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Just as a clarification: Lacus' supporters and Terminal are two separate organizations.
Yeah. That is why I said TERMINAL SUPPORTERS. Lacus has a load of supporters who are just there for the music.

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Originally Posted by PzIVf3 View Post
Yes the subs is correct. The Zaft forces did follow order there commander accordingly to avoid killing civilian area and engage only the military and the Parliment building. As you can see the Zaft flying mobile suit sortie flying over the civilian area and they did not engaged everything they sighted (someone here claiming the Zaft will destroyed everything in sighted). Another thing, a single Astray is at the middle of busy traffic congestion firing above of the attacker and the attacker did not response to counter attack.
And that someone is apparently me. Well, sorry then. Haven't watched Destiny in years and don't plan to rewatch it anytime soon. It's not a bad show, but I have no time to watch anime right now. Pity. And maybe ZAFT forces did follow orders, but matter-of-fact is that they also destroyed many civilian buildings, be it intentional or not. And ironically, Shinn, who was a victim of this, participated in such a battle.
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Old 2008-10-24, 20:27   Link #74
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Seriously I liked Gundam Seed a lot until I saw Destiny. While I was expecting some powerful storyline when I saw Shinn's family been wiped out but the story was a total failure there was absolutely no faction to root for. EA who was being manipulated by a genocidal maniac, but his plans for genocide were secret so that isn't what the whole faction was fighting for. Orb was turned into a puppet of the EA and the Clyne Faction was just fighting just because there was a fight to jump into. And then there were the characters, who NEVER decided what they were fighting for except Shinn who simply wanted to kill the enemy who killed his family.
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Old 2008-10-25, 01:07   Link #75
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Originally Posted by PzIVf3
And then there were the characters, who NEVER decided what they were fighting for except Shinn who simply wanted to kill the enemy who killed his family.
Mind to list those characters out?

Shinn. Shinn never thought of getting revenge against Orb at the start - he just hated them, until towards the end, he was being manipulated into believing that destroying Orb would be for all good. Not exactly for his family. Next, if you're talking about him wanting to kill Kira who killed Stellar.. don't forget who stupidly returned Stellar to ZAFT's enemy.

Of course. It was the only way she could live. But in the end, she still died. Not much difference. It is out of love he gave her back; that's touching... perhaps. But it's out of stupidity that he trusted Neo to not send Stellar back into the battlefield. She was their weapon. Giving back a weapon, and expect them to not use it? Silly, blinded Shinn.
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Old 2008-10-25, 01:23   Link #76
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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
Heh, guess so. But Djibril is not the type of person who would wanna miss the chance of personally killing millions of Coordinators himself. And you know, the existence of the REQUIEM itself is strange. How could ZAFT miss such a big floating thing in the middle of space?
There are two answers to your question. The first is that the REQUIEM bendy parts don't really look like a weapon. The second is that ZAFT did notice, and they eventually sent Yzak's troops to investigate. A third possibility is that Durandal might well have had some sort of inside information, and that he suppressed it for his own purposes. It's probably not an entire coincidence that he wasn't in PLANT when Djibril went up to REQUIEM.

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Yeah, I guess in war, you have no choice but to accept the harsh reality and take every advantage you get, right? It's just my humanitarian side speaking.. .
It's more than just that. In war, lives are always at stake so not exploiting one's advantages is extremely cruel to one's own troops as well.

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Maybe he has good spies. Or were friends with Djibril. I highly doubt that he was a member of LOGOS though. If anyone in LOGOS ratted him out, he would lose all trust of PLANT.
No matter how good Durandal's spies were, he had a limited amount of time to build them up. Note that troops that he could count on as being loyal tended to be relatively green. Durandal didn't have to worry about anyone in LOGOS calling him out since he could honestly tell everyone that he had obviously repudiated the organization and that he was doing his best to root them out.

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Yeah. That is why I said TERMINAL SUPPORTERS. Lacus has a load of supporters who are just there for the music.
I think that you're missing my meaning - Lacus' supporters, the ones who ran the Factory, the crew of Eternal and so forth, weren't members of Terminal at all. Terminal is a completely separate covert information gathering organization. The only character in the show that we can be reasonably sure was a member was Miriallia. It would have been nice if any of this information was in the actual show, and the lack thereof is definitely one of Destiny's greater failings.

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Seriously I liked Gundam Seed a lot until I saw Destiny. While I was expecting some powerful storyline when I saw Shinn's family been wiped out but the story was a total failure there was absolutely no faction to root for.
I must be one of the few viewers out there who thought that the introduction and setup for Destiny were relatively weak, and that it grew better as it better found its voice.

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And then there were the characters, who NEVER decided what they were fighting for except Shinn who simply wanted to kill the enemy who killed his family.
You're misinterpreting Shinn's character. He was never all that interested in killing (or even necessarily finding) the one who killed his family. In fact, he's the best example in Destiny of a character trying to find a cause to fight for. And for that matter, he never even fully believed in the cause he ended up fighting for.
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Old 2008-10-25, 05:41   Link #77
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Next, if you're talking about him wanting to kill Kira who killed Stellar.. don't forget who stupidly returned Stellar to ZAFT's enemy.

Of course. It was the only way she could live. But in the end, she still died. Not much difference. It is out of love he gave her back; that's touching... perhaps. But it's out of stupidity that he trusted Neo to not send Stellar back into the battlefield. She was their weapon. Giving back a weapon, and expect them to not use it? Silly, blinded Shinn.
To be all fair, Shinn is in a lose-lose situation though. He only has two choice:
1) return her to Phantom Pain with the posibility that she will be used as a weapon again but she will survive
2) Let her die in ZAFT and afterward, her body will be a rat lab.
As crazy as it sound, I believe if most people are put on Shinn's shoe, they will choose option 1 since it still provide 2% probability that she can survive during the war.

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Originally Posted by 4tran
I must be one of the few viewers out there who thought that the introduction and setup for Destiny were relatively weak, and that it grew better as it better found its voice.
Well they were trying to do what Code Geass succesfully accomplsihed, but GSD did not really work. I do believe that GSD's bigggest downfall is Morosawa's decision to re-introduce the AA side as the main protagonist from the middle part onward. I think it serves as a good example on why following what fans want is often not a good idea.
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Old 2008-10-25, 07:29   Link #78
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I do believe that GSD's bigggest downfall is Morosawa's decision to re-introduce the AA side as the main protagonist from the middle part onward. I think it serves as a good example on why following what fans want is often not a good idea.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I have seen it put forward that the original idea was to have the Archangel crew be the "villains" and that Fukuda wanted to make a Gundam series where the "heroes" lost to the villains. Now that doesn't match up to what we got, but one could see how Kira and co. could be considered "villains" in the context of the story.
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Old 2008-10-25, 08:34   Link #79
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I have seen it put forward that the original idea was to have the Archangel crew be the "villains" and that Fukuda wanted to make a Gundam series where the "heroes" lost to the villains. Now that doesn't match up to what we got, but one could see how Kira and co. could be considered "villains" in the context of the story.
The theory is that while that is what Fukuda intended, Morwosa, who wrote the scripts, liked her old characters and disliked the new ones enough that she decided to make her own 'fixes.' Now, while that may be up for debate, what did happen was that Morwosa began turning in the scripts for the second half (the first half being pre-planned) too-late to be edited/rewritten by editors: one notable example is Shinn running out of a power... in a mobile suit who's claim to importance is a nuclear engine with unlimited power. Other such examples occur, and so in the remakes many things were ret-conned/edited, because not even basic technical accuracy checks could be made.

Regardless of the reason why, Morwosa did take and hold sole control of the direction of the plot, and many perceptions of personal bias were reinforced through such means as character music and imagery. (Kira and Freedom having angelic poses and heroic image songs, while Shinn relegated to darker, more sinister lights and more rampant battle music.)
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Old 2008-10-25, 09:14   Link #80
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Well they were trying to do what Code Geass succesfully accomplsihed, but GSD did not really work. I do believe that GSD's bigggest downfall is Morosawa's decision to re-introduce the AA side as the main protagonist from the middle part onward. I think it serves as a good example on why following what fans want is often not a good idea.
Destiny and Code Geass had completely different openings, and they were trying to accomplish completely different things. There's really no comparing the two shows on the basis of a similar storyline. And for that matter, I thought that Code Geass was far less successful than Destiny, but that's a subject for a very different thread.

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I have seen it put forward that the original idea was to have the Archangel crew be the "villains" and that Fukuda wanted to make a Gundam series where the "heroes" lost to the villains. Now that doesn't match up to what we got, but one could see how Kira and co. could be considered "villains" in the context of the story.
It's very unlikely for many reasons. The primary one being that Durandal was supposed to be the main villain from the beginning. The two bits that are true are that Shinn had always been meant to lose at the very end, and the old cast wasn't supposed to be quite as prominent. And even there, the latter was probably only a matter of degree.


Now that that's covered, I'd like to remind everyone that this thread is supposed to be about the Second Battle of Orb. A little topic deviation is okay, but when entire posts are related to other Destiny subject (of which there are vast numbers of threads already), that's pushing things.
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