AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Gundam

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-10-25, 09:33   Link #81
PzIVf3
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere at Earth
Something strange that i couldn't figure it out when Shinn threw another beam boomerang at Akatsuki that almost got killed Cagalli but Kira descends from the very highest atmosphere at just got in seconds and saved Cagalli.

Last edited by PzIVf3; 2008-10-25 at 09:34. Reason: Strange timing
PzIVf3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-25, 09:58   Link #82
RAVNEN
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: malim nawar,malaysia
Age: 27
Send a message via Yahoo to RAVNEN
Quote:
Originally Posted by PzIVf3 View Post
Something strange that i couldn't figure it out when Shinn threw another beam boomerang at Akatsuki that almost got killed Cagalli but Kira descends from the very highest atmosphere at just got in seconds and saved Cagalli.
Kira shot it with his SFreedom railgun when he descends from sky.(Damn,I like that scene)

Err...I have some question to ask.
Why Orb did'nt use the battleship that have the Lohengrin cannon,Kusanagi when ZAFT invade Orb?
Could it be the Kusanagi class can only be use in space?

I see Orb use a typical sea vessell like battleship to defend their country which is kinda suicide compare to ZAFT advance military forces.

I wonder what the Sahaku do when ORB under siege by ZAFT,did they build some kickass MS???
RAVNEN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-25, 15:06   Link #83
coba
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAVNEN View Post
Err...I have some question to ask.
Why Orb did'nt use the battleship that have the Lohengrin cannon,Kusanagi when ZAFT invade Orb?
Could it be the Kusanagi class can only be use in space?

I see Orb use a typical sea vessell like battleship to defend their country which is kinda suicide compare to ZAFT advance military forces.

I wonder what the Sahaku do when ORB under siege by ZAFT,did they build some kickass MS???
Yes, Kusanagi can only be operated in space.

For Sahaku, I do believe she is quite busy planning to attack the genesis alpha from the manga

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
Destiny and Code Geass had completely different openings, and they were trying to accomplish completely different things. There's really no comparing the two shows on the basis of a similar storyline
Well I still remember in Fukuda's interview that he was trying to create a political story (like what CG potrays better)in the sense that we don't really have literally "good" sides and "bad" sides - not like in GS where Raww is definitely a villain who wants to destroy the world. Just take an example in the 2nd battle of Orb where there are justifications for all actions from both ZAFT and Orb. The only one in GSD who is close to villain role is Djibril but he is dead way before the ending.
coba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-25, 16:55   Link #84
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAVNEN View Post
Why Orb did'nt use the battleship that have the Lohengrin cannon,Kusanagi when ZAFT invade Orb?
Could it be the Kusanagi class can only be use in space?
Note also that the regular Orb fleet didn't sortie either. They were caught off guard, and most of their forces never mobilized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RAVNEN View Post
I see Orb use a typical sea vessell like battleship to defend their country which is kinda suicide compare to ZAFT advance military forces.
Outside of Minerva, ZAFT only used submarines and other conventional craft while inside the atmosphere. Moreover, Minerva's advantage didn't even lie in the fact that it could hover. And for that matter, Orb had Archangel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coba View Post
Well I still remember in Fukuda's interview that he was trying to create a political story (like what CG potrays better)in the sense that we don't really have literally "good" sides and "bad" sides - not like in GS where Raww is definitely a villain who wants to destroy the world. Just take an example in the 2nd battle of Orb where there are justifications for all actions from both ZAFT and Orb. The only one in GSD who is close to villain role is Djibril but he is dead way before the ending.
One of the rules when dealing with Fukuda's interviews (and that of most other creators for that matter) is that you should take them with a large grain of salt.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-25, 17:26   Link #85
coba
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Note also that the regular Orb fleet didn't sortie either. They were caught off guard, and most of their forces never mobilized.
Actually, the Orb command center already know about the imminent invasion. It is just that the top command (Yuuna) does not give any order to mobilize. The other thing is that Orb losses part of their naval fleet when they are against Minerva. It is quite possible that their main naval force has been reduced significantly.

Quote:
One of the rules when dealing with Fukuda's interviews (and that of most other creators for that matter) is that you should take them with a large grain of salt
Actually, this interview is near the beginning of GSD so he was still stick with his initial idea. In fact, not all Fukuda's interview is false: the only false information (e.g about Mwu)was from Fukuda's interview after GS was finished. It is kinda understandable since at that point, Bandai and Fukuda do not think the possibility of the sequel. The one thta has a lot of contradicatry information is from Morosakawa's interview after the GSD was finished.
coba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-25, 19:26   Link #86
PzIVf3
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere at Earth
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAVNEN View Post
Kira shot it with his SFreedom railgun when he descends from sky.(Damn,I like that scene)
Isn't strange its takes hours to descend with only just seconds.
PzIVf3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-25, 19:35   Link #87
PzIVf3
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere at Earth
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Note also that the regular Orb fleet didn't sortie either. They were caught off guard, and most of their forces never mobilized.
The Orb should have overwhelmed right now but it couldn't explain they fought back with only a small band unit from Cagalli.
PzIVf3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-25, 22:51   Link #88
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by coba View Post
Actually, the Orb command center already know about the imminent invasion. It is just that the top command (Yuuna) does not give any order to mobilize. The other thing is that Orb losses part of their naval fleet when they are against Minerva. It is quite possible that their main naval force has been reduced significantly.
While they did take heavy losses, the main Orb defense fleet should still have been intact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coba View Post
Actually, this interview is near the beginning of GSD so he was still stick with his initial idea. In fact, not all Fukuda's interview is false: the only false information (e.g about Mwu)was from Fukuda's interview after GS was finished. It is kinda understandable since at that point, Bandai and Fukuda do not think the possibility of the sequel. The one thta has a lot of contradicatry
information is from Morosakawa's interview after the GSD was finished.
I wasn't really talking about whether Fukuda was being truthful or not. I just think that it's usually wrong to take a creator's statements at face value. Too often, what they say doesn't have much resemblance to what's shown on the screen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PzIVf3 View Post
Isn't strange its takes hours to descend with only just seconds.
Why would it take hours for Strike Freedom to descend? Nevermind that they had already developed techniques for rapid insertions from space, but we already saw that Freedom could get to about 50km altitude in less than two minutes. From an altitude of ~200km, it'd have taken them a few minutes at most to reach the ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PzIVf3 View Post
The Orb should have overwhelmed right now but it couldn't explain they fought back with only a small band unit from Cagalli.
The simplest explanation is that Orb had units of varying mobilization levels. The most ready units went into action not long after the initial attack, and it provided enough of a distraction for Cagalli's flanking attack to catch the ZAFT troops off guard.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-26, 01:13   Link #89
Neku
yare yare..
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
Quote:
Originally Posted by coba
To be all fair, Shinn is in a lose-lose situation though. He only has two choice:
1) return her to Phantom Pain with the posibility that she will be used as a weapon again but she will survive
2) Let her die in ZAFT and afterward, her body will be a rat lab.
As crazy as it sound, I believe if most people are put on Shinn's shoe, they will choose option 1 since it still provide 2% probability that she can survive during the war.
Pointless. This still doesn't deny that it was stupid to trust the enemy. Giving her back to the enemy isn't protecting her as he promised. It's taking chances; risking.


It's ironic to not realize that the reason ZAFT used to invade Orb was to cause damage. If their sole purpose was really for Djibril.. why send only Lunamaria and a few grunts to chase him down? Of course they had to cease invasion when Djibril left. If it was continued, Orb would have a reason for justification and ZAFT will be condemned.
__________________
Reborn!
(with nosebleed)
Neku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-26, 02:32   Link #90
Paladinoras
Pancakes
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In Your House. No, really, look properly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neku View Post
Pointless. This still doesn't deny that it was stupid to trust the enemy. Giving her back to the enemy isn't protecting her as he promised. It's taking chances; risking.


It's ironic to not realize that the reason ZAFT used to invade Orb was to cause damage. If their sole purpose was really for Djibril.. why send only Lunamaria and a few grunts to chase him down? Of course they had to cease invasion when Djibril left. If it was continued, Orb would have a reason for justification and ZAFT will be condemned.
No, if they had actually WANTED to only find Djibril, and Djibril alone, there are way less costly ways to do it rather then sending a whole army after ORB. They could have just sent assasins to ORB to take him out. Less people will be killed, and a war can be averted. Of course, this was not the case.
__________________


Credit to Godlike1889 for the sig!
Paladinoras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-26, 03:32   Link #91
coba
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
While they did take heavy losses, the main Orb defense fleet should still have been intact.
I do believe even in the original GS (the fristbattle of Orb), Orb does not really have that much naval forces (I believe you can even count their ships), losing some of their ships during their engagement with Minerva surely results in losing valuable personnels. After all, they are technically a neutral country with a relatively small population(if you compare it to neutral country like Swiss in the real world, they don't really have that much army either). That's probably the reason why Orb's defense tends to revolve around MS and Turrets/Missile launcher since they will need less personnels compared to battleship.


Quote:
I wasn't really talking about whether Fukuda was being truthful or not. I just think that it's usually wrong to take a creator's statements at face value. Too often, what they say doesn't have much resemblance to what's shown on the screen.
Well, not all of them are misleading. Some interviews remain consistent with the content of the anime. I would like to point out that contrary to what most people heard, Fukuda's interviews were relatively consistent. The one that has a lot contradiction is actually Morosawa's interview when the GSD was over.

Quote:
Why send only Lunamaria and a few grunts to chase him down? Of course they had to cease invasion when Djibril left.
Becuase the rest of Zaft's MS are occupied against AA side. I think that's why some people pointed out that AA has an indirect hand to let Djibril's escape.


Quote:
No, if they had actually WANTED to only find Djibril, and Djibril alone, there are way less costly ways to do it rather then sending a whole army after ORB. They could have just sent assasins to ORB to take him out. Less people will be killed, and a war can be averted. Of course, this was not the case.
Well Orb and Zaft are technically already in the war though. I believe the situation prior to the invasion can be described as 1+1 =2. From Zaft, Dullindal does indeed want to destroy Orb and Djibril's staying at Orb giving him a legitimate reason to invade. On the other hand, the Serien provide Dullindal with the reason. Remmber prior to the invasion, Zaft put a demand for Djibril and Yuuna gives a "mocking" answer for it.

A little bit out of context:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neku
Pointless. This still doesn't deny that it was stupid to trust the enemy. Giving her back to the enemy isn't protecting her as he promised. It's taking chances; risking.
Living her with Zaft surely does not protect her as his promise either. If you live her with ZAFT, not only she will die, she will be treated as lab rate (hence, Shinn's reaction before returning Stellar)). So if you were Shinn, what would you do now ?
As stupid as option 1 is, at the very least Stellar still has more than 0% chance to live outside the war. I do believe every rational person will likely choose option 1.
coba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-26, 03:58   Link #92
Paladinoras
Pancakes
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In Your House. No, really, look properly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coba View Post
Well Orb and Zaft are technically already in the war though. I believe the situation prior to the invasion can be described as 1+1 =2. From Zaft, Dullindal does indeed want to destroy Orb and Djibril's staying at Orb giving him a legitimate reason to invade. On the other hand, the Serien provide Dullindal with the reason. Remmber prior to the invasion, Zaft put a demand for Djibril and Yuuna gives a "mocking" answer for it.
Yes. I keep saying this. Let me conclude and save this thread a lot of repetitive posts:

Djibril was not the main target of Dullindal, ORB is.
ZAFT was already at war with ORB, so, technically, it is ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coba View Post
A little bit out of context:

Living her with Zaft surely does not protect her as his promise either. If you live her with ZAFT, not only she will die, she will be treated as lab rate (hence, Shinn's reaction before returning Stellar)). So if you were Shinn, what would you do now ?
As stupid as option 1 is, at the very least Stellar still has more than 0% chance to live outside the war. I do believe every rational person will likely choose option 1.
Blah, I always thought that this was a bit strange. Coordinators, who were smarter that the average Naturals, who created Stellar, could not develop a drug that could cure her. Even after they discovered a facility that specifically handles Extendeds. She was meant to die.. .

And sides, Stellar's death was inevitable on both options. Stellar will eventually die anyway, with or without using the DESTROY. It is her fate, so to speak.

If Shinn had made her snap out of it during Berlin, this is what would've happened.

1. Hug, kiss, whatever, happily because they are reunited.
2. Stellar gets sick again.
3. ZAFT can't do anything AGAIN.
4. Shinn cries and whines for there is nothing he can do.
5. Return her to the enemy, praying that they will not use her as a weapon.
6. EA uses her as weapon AGAIN.
7. She fights again in another mobile suit.
8. Dies.

OR

8. Meets Shinn again. Shinn made her sane again. Return to 1 and try again.

So, yeah, it was hopeless.
__________________


Credit to Godlike1889 for the sig!
Paladinoras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-26, 04:28   Link #93
coba
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post


Blah, I always thought that this was a bit strange. Coordinators, who were smarter that the average Naturals, who created Stellar, could not develop a drug that could cure her. Even after they discovered a facility that specifically handles Extendeds. She was meant to die.. .

And sides, Stellar's death was inevitable on both options. Stellar will eventually die anyway, with or without using the DESTROY. It is her fate, so to speak.
Yep, I personally hate if I was put in Shinn's position though. Whatever choice he made is a bad ones. He can only choose the lesser-of-the-evil-kinda-of option. And seriously, if Stellar is left at ZAFT, she will be treated as an animal, not as human. How bad can they be huh ?
coba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-26, 09:07   Link #94
Neku
yare yare..
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
Quote:
Originally Posted by coba
Living her with Zaft surely does not protect her as his promise either. If you live her with ZAFT, not only she will die, she will be treated as lab rate (hence, Shinn's reaction before returning Stellar)). So if you were Shinn, what would you do now ?
As stupid as option 1 is, at the very least Stellar still has more than 0% chance to live outside the war. I do believe every rational person will likely choose option 1.
I do not know what would actually happen if he stayed by her in ZAFT. But what's obvious is, he indirectly sent Stellar back into the battlefield, thus causing him to lose her even sooner. It also ignited a destructive war, and unnecessary casualties.

But it actually doesn't matter. Doesn't deny the fact that it was a stupid action.
__________________
Reborn!
(with nosebleed)
Neku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-26, 13:36   Link #95
RAVNEN
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: malim nawar,malaysia
Age: 27
Send a message via Yahoo to RAVNEN
Quote:
Originally Posted by PzIVf3 View Post
Isn't strange its takes hours to descend with only just seconds.
Is not that strange at all,see those 3 DOM unit descend using that drop pod,they quickly deploy. Also see how the old Freedom descend to save Archangel in Seed,it is so fast Kira can shoot disable that Ginn.

After all SFreedom is so godly,hopefully there is no cult worship it at Orb.

Anyway I think Durandal seriously want to invade Orb even without Djibril hid there.Seeing Zaft fielded their new Ms like Babi,Gouf & Minerva asset make Durandal want to take out Orb with one stroke.

I give Durandal a salute for making a brilliant plan & died at his own super fortress.
Now that what I call an "EPIC" way to die.

Last edited by RAVNEN; 2008-10-26 at 13:38. Reason: Ravnen,Raigo gundam,Launching......
RAVNEN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-26, 14:06   Link #96
blitz1/2
Tenshi's Defense Squadron
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Fighting against those who oppress the system
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
Yes. I keep saying this. Let me conclude and save this thread a lot of repetitive posts:

Djibril was not the main target of Dullindal, ORB is.
ZAFT was already at war with ORB, so, technically, it is ok.



Blah, I always thought that this was a bit strange. Coordinators, who were smarter that the average Naturals, who created Stellar, could not develop a drug that could cure her. Even after they discovered a facility that specifically handles Extendeds. She was meant to die.. .

And sides, Stellar's death was inevitable on both options. Stellar will eventually die anyway, with or without using the DESTROY. It is her fate, so to speak.

If Shinn had made her snap out of it during Berlin, this is what would've happened.

1. Hug, kiss, whatever, happily because they are reunited.
2. Stellar gets sick again.
3. ZAFT can't do anything AGAIN.
4. Shinn cries and whines for there is nothing he can do.
5. Return her to the enemy, praying that they will not use her as a weapon.
6. EA uses her as weapon AGAIN.
7. She fights again in another mobile suit.
8. Dies.

OR

8. Meets Shinn again. Shinn made her sane again. Return to 1 and try again.

So, yeah, it was hopeless.
Actually Neo is KOed, so yea nobody to return. And why are we discussing Stellar here?

I wonder how strong the Orb fleet would be if they hadn't wasted their forces attacking the Minerva.
__________________

hai, hai. Onii-chan has his work cut out for him.
blitz1/2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-26, 16:11   Link #97
coba
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neku View Post
I do not know what would actually happen if he stayed by her in ZAFT. But what's obvious is, he indirectly sent Stellar back into the battlefield, thus causing him to lose her even sooner. It also ignited a destructive war, and unnecessary casualties.

But it actually doesn't matter. Doesn't deny the fact that it was a stupid action.

Actually iti was clearly stated by Talia that she will be a lab rat when they arrive at base since ZAFT's scientist are eager to conduct experiment on "fresh" specimen of druggies. That's the reason why shinn yells at Talia.

Shinn's objective is clearly to let Stellar's live outside a war. You can only judge a an action/decision as stupid if a person has a better option. The problem here is that Shinn does not have a better option that he can choose. If you think there is another better way, do oyu mind to state it ?

Quote:
I wonder how strong the Orb fleet would be if they hadn't wasted their forces attacking the Minerva.
I still say if SF or IJ do not get involve, Ob's fate will be the same as in the first battle. This statement purely support the godliness of these two machines (as well as the unrealistic situation in the CE universe)
coba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-27, 03:33   Link #98
Paladinoras
Pancakes
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In Your House. No, really, look properly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coba View Post
Actually iti was clearly stated by Talia that she will be a lab rat when they arrive at base since ZAFT's scientist are eager to conduct experiment on "fresh" specimen of druggies. That's the reason why shinn yells at Talia.

Shinn's objective is clearly to let Stellar's live outside a war. You can only judge a an action/decision as stupid if a person has a better option. The problem here is that Shinn does not have a better option that he can choose. If you think there is another better way, do oyu mind to state it ?


I still say if SF or IJ do not get involve, Ob's fate will be the same as in the first battle. This statement purely support the godliness of these two machines (as well as the unrealistic situation in the CE universe)
Yes, there is another way. Surrender to the EA forces with Stellar and join them. EA takes care of Stellar, and Shinn fights for them for a while. Then, he can collect data for her drug and go back to ZAFT. Controversial, but whatever.

And we have got to stop talking about Stellar people.

No, Orb has a powerful enough fleet to resist the ZAFT forces. Had SF and IJ not arrived, the only difference there would be is that Cagalli could potentially die. Hell, all those two really did was keep the two main ZAFT suits, Destiny and Legend, in check. After Djibril had escaped, the ZAFT army SHOULD retreat, at any rate. Or alternatively, with the excess forces, they could capture/kill him and once they did that, they HAVE to retreat or Durandal would lose some credibility.
__________________


Credit to Godlike1889 for the sig!
Paladinoras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-27, 04:11   Link #99
coba
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
Yes, there is another way. Surrender to the EA forces with Stellar and join them. EA takes care of Stellar, and Shinn fights for them for a while. Then, he can collect data for her drug and go back to ZAFT. Controversial, but whatever. .
He can't do that. The one who has a cure for Stellar is a Phantom Pain division who BTW is created by Logos. Logos hates coordinatopr so there is no way they will let Shinn join them.


Quote:
No, Orb has a powerful enough fleet to resist the ZAFT forces. Had SF and IJ not arrived, the only difference there would be is that Cagalli could potentially die. Hell, all those two really did was keep the two main ZAFT suits, Destiny and Legend, in check.
No, Orb's force is not powerful enough resist ZAFT at all. For comparison, the ZAFT forces has oliberated EA's main base (Heaven's base) who BTW have more firepower than the Orb. If there is no IJ or SF, nobody will be able to stop Legend and Destiny. Similarly, the other ZAFT MS are stopped by the Doms trio.
coba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-27, 06:29   Link #100
Paladinoras
Pancakes
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In Your House. No, really, look properly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coba View Post
He can't do that. The one who has a cure for Stellar is a Phantom Pain division who BTW is created by Logos. Logos hates coordinatopr so there is no way they will let Shinn join them.
Disguise, hide, paint your skin, use contact lense, etc, etc.

If Neo is as devious and smart as I think he is, he would not let go of a chance of a redcoat ZAFT ace surrendering to his division. Especially if he knows that he can control him with Stellar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coba View Post
No, Orb's force is not powerful enough resist ZAFT at all. For comparison, the ZAFT forces has oliberated EA's main base (Heaven's base) who BTW have more firepower than the Orb. If there is no IJ or SF, nobody will be able to stop Legend and Destiny. Similarly, the other ZAFT MS are stopped by the Doms trio.
The ZAFT forces defeated the EA forces in Heaven's Base because of well, plothax. Nothing more, nothing less. The EA forces had five DESTROYs, an army of Forbidden Blues, and the cannon thingy that took out the forces from space. The ZAFT army winning was actually a friggin miracle, considering half of their forces were taken out within minutes of the start of the battle.

And I told you already, without SF and IJ, Djibril would die faster, which means that the ZAFT forces HAVE to retreat. And besides, had SF and IJ not popped out, Cagalli would have died or be seriously injured, causing the ORB forces to be, well, pissed off beyond all measure and go kamikaze like Baba. They will literally fight to end for Cagalli. . .
__________________


Credit to Godlike1889 for the sig!
Paladinoras is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:58.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.